Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig August Book Club Online

[JoanP]

 
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Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig

Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains. Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country. It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble) "Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review

Discussion Schedule:

August 1 ~ 5  Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14  Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21  The Steaders (about 75  pages)
August 22 ~ 31  Two Medicine, 1918, 1919

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
August 22 ~ 31 

Two Medicine

1. Why does Angus say that the band of sheep grazing on the rented Blackfeet reservation land  was for Varick's benefit "in the eventual"?  Why is Rob helping with the shearing up there?

2.  Did Anna come up there with her children because she knew Angus would be there, or in spite of it?  When she agreed to see the dawn with Angus, was she agreeing to something more? 

3.  Why did Rob  bring Varick into the equation?  Do you think he came to regret his action?

4. "They look at us, our fleeceless sons, and wonder how we ever grew such awful coats of complication."  A parallel between Varick and those vulnerable sheep.  How did the teen-aged Varick respond to Uncle Rob's report? 

5.  What was Lucas thinking when he made that will?  Do you think he achieved what he wanted for each of his  "heirs"?

6. As remote as it seems, the world seems to find its way into Scotch Heaven and the lives of its inhabitants. Somewhere Professor Doig asks the question, "Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"  What do you think?

1919

7. Do you thnk they would have made it back from Valier with the haywagons plowing through the snow - without Varick? 

8.  Do Adair and Angus both hold Rob responsible for what happened in the reservoir?  What do you think caused the drastic change in Rob's personality toward the end of his life?

9. In the end, as he writes Rob's remembrance ,  can you understand Angus' mixed feelings for his long time friend?  Do you think  their differences  had always been there, but not noticed?

10. Doig decided to write a Scotch Heaven trilogy?  Any idea how he will continue?  Will it be Varick's story?

Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana
Ivan's Notes on his home page

Discussion Leaders:  Babi  & Joan P

[Mippy]

So many interesting posts, so little time ...
Barb ~ What an excellent link on the history of the National Forest settlements, just what I'd been looking for, but didn't follow up, so saved the link to reread.  The name Adair really jumps off the page, doesn't it.

Aside:  We aren't considering an evacuation here at Cape Cod.  Over our many summers here, there've been so many false alarms.  And there's no better place than home with our pup!  Not to mention that my son and family from VA are here through Sunday.  So we'll stay put.  The FL hurricane web site suggests a Mon. strike here.

[Babi]

 Interesting look at the possible psychological roots of Angus obsession with Anna,
BARB. He surely doesn't understand it himself. I noted what he said after Anna told
him she had chosen Isaac. "...even now I could not stop myself from siding with her, defending her against myself even as I derided her reasons in favor of mumblejumble Isaac. I still loved that woman. And if this day had not changed that fact, what ever could?"

I appreciated those links. I am esp. happy to see the correct pronunciation of
Gros Ventre; my own imaginings were so awkward. 

  Adair is an exceptional woman.  She quietly does what she finds right and necessary. Her place is with her son while he is living in town. In the summer she is back home with Angus with no fanfare or fuss. Loyalty to Angus as his wife is also part of what she finds right and necessary. When Rob wants to speak with her privately, she tells him, "Anything you ever say to me you say to Angus as well."

Lucas last will and testament; his last try at getting Rob and Angus back together. Both of them, of course, wanted no part of it.  Adair, however, calmly refused to 'sell and divide'. Her consent was necessary, and she would not give it. Angus: "Wherever Adair was in that head of hers, she was firmly planted there."

  Rob and Angus are still balking; two oxen that will not be yoked together.  Adair asks the one question she has never asked of Angus before. "Will you do this for me?"  Angus recognizes "Here was the other end of the bargain she quietly broached to me those years ago." She had accepted all Angus was and the shortcomings of a marriage with him. He owed this to her.

 

[CallieOK]

Great analysis, Babi.   I agree with everything you said.

However, I have zero sympathy for Angus' allowing himself the continued obsession with Anna - and I'd like to take Rob out behind the woodshed and give him a good whuppin'!  (Oops - not allowed these days...how about "put him in Time Out for a very long time")

Sly Lucas!   I think he knew that Adair would see that the combined responsibility worked - and she did.

[JoanP]

We made it home - just in time to assess the earthquake damage (not much, a few items, books, framed photographs on the floor but nothing serious) - and now prepare for the hurricane that is bearing down on the East Coast.  On some models, it will cause extensive damage inland to the Washington DC area. Mippy, where is your son and his family coming from? I know it's somewhere close-in - in Virginia.  And my husband wonders where on the cape are you located.  We're worried about you -  riding out the storm.- Hopefully  Irene will lose her punch as she goes further up the coast.  My sister  on Long Island is quite concerned - planning to leave for the cape this weekend.

I just had a glimpse at the posts from the last few days - so good to be back home.  I'll throw a royal fit if the power goes out now...

A few comments tonight -

[JoanP]

 "Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"

 What do you think?  I think so, as long as the milieu is as well researched as Doig has done.  
If you've finished the book, you've probably noticed the  extensive "Acknowledgments" section in the back of the book -
it is clear Doig  does his homework for his novels.  He grew up in Montana - as some of you have already found, he acknowledges:

"Dupayer Creek, Montana, the cherished country of my growing up years.  In general I've retained nearby existing places such as Valier, Choteau, Conrad, Heart Butte and so on, but anything within what I've stretched geography to call "the Two Medicine country," I've felt free to change or invent."

I am  particularly interested in the Two Medicine history - and the Blackfeet reservation...
MaryZ, I know you were part of our Native American book project - back when we were SeniorNet.  We sent much needed books to the children in Browning, Montana. Blackfeet Early Childhood Center.  I found these cached addresses.
615 S. Piegan
Browning, MT 59417
Mailing address for ages 6-18

Olivia Davis-Hall
Attn: SeniorNet Book Project
Blackfeet Boarding Dorm
PO Box 880
#1 Dormitory Road
Browning, MT 59417 

"The Blackfeet Indian Reservation is 1.5 million acres of panormic beauty located in the mountains of North America. On the north it borders the Canadian Providence of Alberta and to the south is the Glacier Country."

  Doig brought the history of Lewis and Clark into his story, making the history of the place come alive - as Adair is introduced to the area upon her arrival from Scotland.  She shutters at the place - the sheer size, the wildness of the place.  Will she ever come to appreciate it - or does she still harbor a desire to return to bonny Scotland?   http://www.blackfeetcountry.com/twomedencounter.html

[JoanP]

"More than 50 years ago Ivan Doig packed his bags, took a train from Dupuyer, on Montana's Front Range, and traveled to Chicago for college. He has never again lived in the Big Sky state. Yet Montana has never really left him, for the state is the source of most of Doig's writings" - http://www.montana.edu/mountainsandminds/spring2009/doig/index.html

He writes in the "Acknowledgments" - "Malone and Roeder's Montana:A History of Two Centuries has been my guide as I've tried to make the lives of my characters respond to what might be called the laws of historical gravity;  and Rick Roeder deserves the full due for his homestead research reflecting the fact that more land was homesteaded in Montana than any other state, and that the peak of Montana homestead boom was remarkably late in "frontier" history, 1914-1918."

Barbara, that link to Montana forest history was so familiar, wasn't it? - I'll bet those  photographs were  studied closely by Doig too.  In the "Acknowledgments" he refers to the Forest History Society as being vitally helpful to his research.

We know the war was coming - and you just knew Varick was going to be part of it.  But who knew he'd be in greater danger posted in the state of Washington than at the front?  

[PatH]

Sly Lucas!   I think he knew that Adair would see that the combined responsibility worked - and she did.

Lucas seems to know how everyone's mind works.  (Angus says this about Lucas and himself.)  He must have guessed that Adair would take the stand she did to try to reconcile Rob and Angus, and that Rob would do anything rather than lose the money from the sheep.

The feud must have been very hard on Adair.  She loyally took Angus' side; does that mean she cut herself off from Rob?  If so, she lost a fair bit of her social life, since Rob was one of her nearest neighbors.  Was she angry with Rob for creating a situation that forced her to live in town during the school year, or was she secretly glad that Angus was suffering for his love?  We never get inside Adair's head, and she mostly keeps her thoughts to herself.

[PatH]

"Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"

My answer is a resounding yes for this kind of fiction.  I really distrust the kind of historical fiction that inserts characters into important events and has them interacting with real persons in such a way that you know some bits of history have been changed.  You get a vivid picture, but you don't know how much of it is real.   You may come away with a mistaken notion of what really happened.  But Doig doesn't do that.  The made-up part doesn't distort reality, and we get a really good picture of just what it was like, what the issues were, how external events affected the settlers, etc.

[JoanP]

"we get a really good picture of just what it was like, what the issues were, how external events affected the settlers, etc." PatH

Does knowing that Ivan Doig was a history professor at the U. of Washington suggest that his first interest here is telling the history of the place, rather that writing a love story?  This is not to say that I think he is not a gifted storyteller -

"We never get inside Adair's head, and she mostly keeps her thoughts to herself."  I  agree with that.  We've been hearing the same comments about Anna too, haven't we?  Do you think this is because it is a story told from a man's point of view, a man who finds the workings of a woman's mind mystifying?  
While on this track - would you say this is really Lucas's story...and the difficulties of establishing a footprint in the wilderness of Montana?  Or because Angus is the narrator, is it his story?

[Babi]

 

"Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"

Oh, I definitely think so, JOANP. To mention another writer who does that so well,
I have found C.J. Sansom's books top-notch. He knows his historical background and
his mysteries set in the period of Henry VIII are excellent. He weaves the fiction
story into the factual setting/events/people perfectly. (I think you would like
him, PatH.)
 

Do you think this is because it is a story told from a man's point of view, a man
who finds the workings of a woman's mind mystifying?

  A good point, JOANP. Doig
might have done more harm then good trying to go inside the mind of either woman.
Don't you find that we women probably have a pretty good idea of what's going on
with both Adair and Anna?  I feel that I do, but what I'm 'seeing' may not be at
all how some of you other posters see them.

 So now it's 1918,  and parents all over the country are coping with the fear of losing the
sons they've spent so many years caring for.  And we are worried for Varick, who has turned
out to be anexceptionally find fellow. (This post is jumping like mad. I'm going to continue
in the next post.)

[Babi]

 Okay, Varick.  Remember what Stanley Meixell said about him?   "He's abut a man and a half in anything I put him to. Regular demon for work, and what he can't do a first time he learns before a next time gets here."  Words to make any father proud.

   "Suddenly every male in Montana between milkteeth and storeteeth seemed to have gone to war." I found myself wondering if perhaps it was common to get more volunteers, percentage-wise at least, from rural areas. The young people raised in the country may have been more eager to see more of the world.  Do you think that might be true?

[PatH]

"Between milkteeth and storeteeth".  That's one of my favorites of Doig's nifty phrases.

Babi, yes, I think I would like Sansom.  JoanK has told me about him too.

JoanP, yes, I do think Doig's primary interest is the place.  His love for the countryside and feel for the life of the settlers shine out.  But he's also interested in the human story.

Doig hasn't lived in Montana since he went away to college, but his love for it remains.  This is like Kipling, who left India when he was 5, came back for a few years as a young man, then left never to return.  But most of his lifelong writings are about India, and his love for the country is  prominent.

[CallieOK]

I love Doik's phrases.  Hope I can remember some of them to toss into conversation now and then.

Another fine aspect of Doick's writing ability is how smoothly he develops the plot - with necessary characters appearing well before they're needed to advance the story (Stanley Meixell being an example).   
Having Anna appear at the Reservation camp seemed a bit "contrived" at first - but as the story developed later on, I could see why she and Angus had to see each other again in a private setting.

I think Varick has the best qualities of both parents - which speaks well for the atmosphere in which he was raised - and that speaks well of the relationship Adair and Angus developed. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok what confuses me is Rob toward the end of this book - he has become so cranky and mean - I cannot find in the book any explanation except for the one that Angus gives - at least with other characters in the story you can look back to actually what they say and see a pattern - because, as you say Babi it is too easy for us to use our imagination as to what this or that means especially if we are looking at the happenings from the view point of Angus as the end-all -

I do see that both men like twin bookends share their outraged view of the other over what they perceived to be unacceptable attention to a women that they then share their viewpoint as if fact and muddy the water with another member of the family...Angus to Lucas about Rob and Rob to Varick about Angus.

I can only surmise and that is not satisfactory - I want someone in the story to give a hint with either a statement or an accumulation of conversations that are of a similar viewpoint. But I question, is it because Rob is alone in the house and now he understands what it was like for Angus to be alone all winter in his house all because of his wanting to hurt Angus or his thoughtless act of telling Varick of his perceptions about his father and Anna - but that guilt would not in my opinion be enough to make this man as cranky as he appears as compared to the high energy forward looking man he had been through out the story.

Maybe he expected to be more successful and blames Angus, the weather, Lucas, his luck having girls rather than boys, the Forest Service - on and on he would have a litany of influences that he could blame.

He seems cranky not just at Angus but cranky in general so the idea of holding a grudge because Angus did not help him become more successful when Angus would not join him multiplying their sheep herd does not fit - nor does it fit that by Angus spilling the beans about Rob and Nancy to Lucas in his drunken state put them at a distance because that did not happen - Lucas continued to financially back Rob and Rob quickly married Judith.

All we have is Angus thinking that Rob was jealous because he had a son and Rob did not and so Rob had to muddy the water between Angus and Varick - but even at that - I cannot see that alone accounting for this man changing into this bitter, bull headed old curmudgeon - although, he always was bull headed and I guess selfish but certainly not bitter - he was like the dawns early light and throw in a few rockets so that he was like a one man 4th of July fireworks display of energy, ideas and forward thinking.

[maryz]

I've heard it said that the Four Corners area (NM, CO, UT, and AZ) is a major character in Tony Hillerman's books.  I certainly agree with that.  And I find that Montana is definitely a major character in Doig's book as well.

I've always felt that Doig's books were, to some extent, autobiographical - in some cases, maybe not "auto" specifically, but about his family.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, there seems to be along that band of land in this nation a similar story of description of the land and how the weather affects the land and the people who tried to "tame" the land. In this book featuring Montana there are mountains and valleys and butts and snow and wind - the further south you go along that longitude we have authors who describe expanses of land as far as the eye can see with wind and heat and lack of rain that causes as many hardships on the settlers as the snow, wind and long winters on these characters in Doig's book.

All the talk in the book of how hard the work and living condition became an annoyance to me - I am thinking of my son-in-law whose family for a couple of generations, including his father lived in a 'soddy' in Bloomfield Missouri and during the depression if it wasn't for the CCC they would not have any money coming in. I look at my own family - observing all around most of those who made this nation before WWII lived a hard life, always on the edge of one disaster or another and when for most it took physical labor to even take care of a family in town. I guess I would have been less annoyed if the author simply told the tales of this or that event without having to preface them with how hard it was.

I must say though I did not realize the impact on Montana of those from Scotland - a much earlier migration of Scotch Irish I knew settled in Appalachia but this seems to be a later migration - interesting how there is a character of caution that is in my son-in-law who is from that earlier migration of Scotch heritage - their family came from a few generations living in Tennessee before moving further 'west' so they could farm.  My son-in-law has much the same caution and look for security as Angus in this story.

[CallieOK]

Barb,  I would suggest the non-fiction book "Born Fighting - How the Scots-Irish Shaped America" by James Webb. 
It doesn't include the migration to Montana but certainly gave me a better understanding of the original Scots-Irish who immigrated into Appalachia and on west from that area into Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma.

Your statement about Rob that "Maybe he expected to be more successful and blames Angus, the weather, Lucas, his luck having girls rather than boys, the Forest Service - on and on he would have a litany of influences that he could blame. rings very true to me.

Even back in Scotland, Rob was able to manipulate, convince and control others to do what HE planned and thought was best.  Up to this last section, he's been able to do the same thing in Montana.  Now there are not only life situations that thwart his efforts - individuals are beginning to be less willing to take his advice.
Some of them "even" see him as old and out of touch. 
How insulting to a "control freak"!!  They must be taught the error of their ways - the rascals!!!

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - there is a distinction between the Scotch Irish and the Scottish immigrant.

Scotch Irish

Scottish

Looks like from the map included there were many Scottish folk in the Northwest and in fact the entire west has many whose family emigrated from Scotland where as the east is about the Scotch Irish who were actually from Ireland and who only added the preface Scotch to distinguish themselves after the huge influx of Irish into American during the Starvation.

[PatH]

That Scotch-Irish article is the first time I've seen Andrew Jackson and Elvis Presley on the same page!

[PatH]

Maryz, you are certainly right about the terrain being a major character in both Hillerman's and Doig's books.  In Hillerman the terrain is a spiritual presence; here, it's more of an overpowering force.

Rob is seeing a lot of things go wrong in his life.  His angry act, telling Varick about Anna, somewhat estranged him from Adair.  He doesn't see Varick either, since V is never around, and he looked on Varick as the son he wasn't lucky enough to have.  He lost his shirt in the land location business.  After one really good year, they have a barely-break-even year with the sheep, and it's going to get worse in the next chapter.  Monetary success and getting ahead is much more the mainspring of his life than it is for Angus, who is more focussed on living a good life overall.  And the forced partnership with Angus is grating on him more and more.

So I can see him getting cranky, but he certainly carries it to extremes, and that's going to get worse in 1919 too.

[BarbStAubrey]

here, it's more of an overpowering force.

Yes, and revered during morning communes - reminds me of a John Knox Godhead.

OK I can see that one goal after the other was knocked astray for Rob - so yes, it makes sense he is not a happy camper - but my word he becomes down right ornery. I guess that is it, his whole life was about achieving something more - hmmm I guess that is saying he does not see himself as enough so he needs more...is that it do you think - now that his opportunities in life are reduced to the size of a thimble among this vastness called Montana he has to live with himself and to him he is not enough?

Thinking aloud here - he saw himself as enough when they started this journey from Scotland - he never shared his fears or trepidations and so was very much the bravado leader - maybe that was all built on his dreams of success and now they have not materialized so he has to live with the fear of not being the success he imagined for himself.

[Babi]

 BARB, I think it was not achieving the success that he so badly wanted that has
embittered Rob. He had such high..often unrealistic..expectations. Life did not
give him all he demanded and he is simply filled with anger. So he takes it out
on everyone and everything.
  Few of us in our generation faced those kinds of hardship,BARB. We know the early
settlers did, and our parents faced a severe depression. I think I might not have
fully grasped the difficulties of a place like Montana, esp. in that I am southern
born and raised. And Doig did lace his tales of hardships with some saving humor.

   Adair is doing what she can to act as a buffer between Angus and Rob, since she
has insisted they work together.  She begins going with them to feed the sheep, driving the
hay sled. For the first time she shows an interest in the sheep asking how many lambs had
been born.  Angus loves this land; has thrown himself into  this life wholeheartedly. It
pleases him that she has asked.
   She insists on going with him to the sheep that had to be left alone when Davie
became ill. He tells her of all the hardships that would be involved, and asks if she
still wants to go. "I swear she said this, as if the past twenty-one years of her avoidance
of the Two Medicine country's mountainine were unceremoniously null and void. She said,"Of
course I want to."

 

[salan]

I have finished the book and will wait to comment until others have finished.
Sally

[JoanP]

So many good thoughts here this morning!  Sally, please jump right in.  We've only a few days left for this discussion.   We're accomplishing something, I think - talking through these puzzling issues together. Babi put it this way-  "what I'm 'seeing' may not be at all how some of you other posters see them."  I think it's really helpful to talk about what we are seeing' don't you?  Two of the more puzzling issues as I see them:

Rob's crippling bitterness at the end of his life-
Angus'continuing hope for a future with Anna -

 I agree with Barbara, Rob was always bullheaded, maybe selfish.  Callie sees him back in Scotland, manipulating Angus to join in his dream of a better life in Montana.  I'm questionning whether Rob  was the real leader of the two, though.  Wasn't Angus better prepared for the journey?  Didn't Angus keep Rob on track - homesteading, when Rob was ready to give it all up and stay in Gros Ventre to dally with Nancy?  I see Rob lacking his Uncle Lucas' resiliency when things don't go the way he plans.

The one time I saw him manipulate Angus, against Angus' better judgment - was the matchmaking with Adair.
PatH  sees monetary success and getting ahead the "mainspring" of Rob's life.  Now he's hard up, barely making  ends meet, alone and lonely on his ranch - and Angus has everything he doesn't have.  He has Adair.  And Anna.  And after a time, Varick, the son Rob never had.
Oh yes, I can understand Rob now.  He no longer has a vision, a dream, a plan.  Or a friend to show him the way out of his miserable frame of mind.

Barbara - thank you for that link to the Scottish settlers.  I've found it puzzling that there were so many Scottish settlers in the Two Medicine area - but I can see how it happened now - the sheer numbers of Scottish immigrants to the Northwest at this time says it all.

[CallieOK]

Joan, yes - Angus is the thoughtful planner - just what a quick-minded (is there such a term), impetuous person like Rob needs.   Although he is a responsible person in many ways, I think he likes being able to think "It wasn't my fault.  If (fill in name) had just done it my way..., hadn't..., had only...., etc., everything would be fine in MY life".

I think I'm sensitive to this characteristic because I'm more like Angus and I've been associated with too many people who are/were similar to Rob.  I don't play into their games any more.

[JoanP]

And I know a few people who act as resentfully as Rob does, when you refuse to play their games, Callie.  It took many many years of not wanting to disappoint people to make me stand up to them.  Angus had a nice way with Rob, back when they were still friends, still speaking.  And there was always Lucas to find a solution that kept them from confrontations.  There is noone to reason with them now.  Adair knows better than to step in.

Angus says of Rob - "he doesn't understand the situation between Adair and me and therefore Anna and me."  Do you understand it?  He tells Rob he and Adair were a pair he {Rob} devised. " We weren't perfect for each other."  Were Angus and Anna?  I guess Angus believes that is so.

"I've always felt that Doig's books were, to some extent, autobiographical - in some cases, maybe not "auto"  specifically, but about his family."

Mary Z, I've been thinking about the "auto" nature of the book - wondering whether the author himself has an unforgetable first love in mind as he writes of Angus and Anna. He writes so convincingly of this consuming lifelong attraction.

  When Anna and Angus spoke at dawn that morning, he asks her, " When Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland...?

Is it understood then that Adair might return to Scotland when the three year partnership is up?  Can you see that happening?

[JoanP]

"The young people raised in the country may have been more eager to see more of the world.  Do you think that might be true?"

Babi, I do - but also see Varick eager to get out of Scotch Heaven for other reasons, don't you?  There's evidence that he is like so many other young men eager to sign up for war - they feel themselves invincible and look for adventure.  Remember his bull riding.  Varick is fearless.  Painful when father and son said goodbye, wasn't it?  Varick might well have been going off to the front, for all they knew.

But INFLUENZA?  What do you know of Influenza during WW!?  I guess I knew that the death toll was great - that it killed as many as died at war.  (Is that true?)  But was it so widespread here,  in the US?  In the remote Two Medicine area?  I don't remember my parents or grandparents ever mentioning flu deaths in the family.  Do you?  All I remember was Nana and her mustard plasters for whatever ailed me.  Do you think that was a common treatment for flu - and coughs and colds?

-"Another fine aspect of Doig's writing ability is how smoothly he develops the plot."

Oh Callie, I agree.  And not just the big made-for-the-movies scenes, but the sensitive way he handled the poignant, quiet moments - when Adair broke the news of Anna's death to Angus, for example.

I can almost see Doig as he worked out the plot - Anna's death was a shocker, wasn't it?  I wonder whether he considered taking Isaac out of the story at that point - Isaac could just have easily died from the flu.  What would this have done to the plot?  Would Anna turn to Angus?  And what would Angus have done? I've my own idea, but would like to know what you think...

But Doig didn't go that route, did he.  What was Angus' reaction to Adair's news?  So now, does this end Angus' obsession with Anna - for good?

[CallieOK]

When flu shots first began to be promoted, my Mother said, "They say if you had the flu in 1917 and survived, you don't need one.  I had it and I'm still here, so...?"   (I think she did eventually begin getting them)

[maryz]

Click herefor the Wikipedia article on the 1918 Influenza Epidemic.

[BarbStAubrey]

To me the obsession he had was a picture or dream of how his life could be perfect - how he could feel loved and love and he had a name and face and long black braid to label that dream called Anna -

I do not think Adair can ever fill that spot - I think he has finally healed some like we do after the pain of loss in our lives - to me he just hung on to this obsessive dream as his fix for his pain and now that the 'labeled' fix is not there his obsession will lesson but I do not think disappear -

He did build up enough inner resources believing in himself plus he is allowing himself to feel the love from Adair - now that he sees she is not likely to leave he can relax rather than feel the anxiety of yet one more important person in his life leaving him as they did in death - for that matter now even Anna, his live dream adds to his pain of being left, abandoned by those he cared about and who he was dependent upon.

And the biggie,  he has the respect and affection of his son - he is as complete as he can be and like sucking limes he knows he can make it. It may have taken 25 years since purchasing the limes to have the pay off of a life investment that back then his investment was, trust in a silent vendor, established in a few minutes using the exchange of his voyage money.

[Babi]

 Good for you, CALLIE.  It takes some of us a long time to cut loose from people
who play the manipulative games. Like JOANP, I was raised to be polite and avoid
offending people. But there are some people that simply insist on being offended;
they seem to find it most satisfying.

 The influenza epidemic, with it's lists of the dead as long, or longer, than those killed
in the war. Then Angus becomes ill, with only Adair to tend him. People are avoiding one
another out of necessity, out of fear of contagion. In his fever Angus is hallucinating and
crying out, and one of the things he shouts is "Anna!, Anna! ANNA!"  How painful that must
have been for Adair. Yet she is amazingly compassionate.

 This is the end to all Angus' vague hopes of 'maybe', in some obscure future.  In all fairness to Anna, I don't think she would have made that promise if she had known Angus would be marrying Adair.  I believe she was wiser than that.  And life being what it is, I doubt the two
of them would have been as happy as Angus dreamed they would be.

[JoanP]

Whew!  Some storm.  We came through - no water in the basement, no trees down - still have power.  Others have not been this fortunate.  Sister in Long Ilsnad is bracing for it now - like JoanR  We're waiting to hear from you - and Mippy too.

Babi - I see that Anna could not answer Angus' question when they met at the camp at dawn.  Even if Adair  returned to Scotland - Anna can't promise anything.  I thnk she loves her family and doesn't want to disrupt it for what might have been when she was younger.

Callie, your mother was probably on to something re immunity to influenza because of previous exposure.  (Do you remember mustard plasters?  I don't even remember what they were, except my grandmother applied them to my chest whenever I had a cold or started to wheeze.)

The link from MaryZ on the Spanish flu of 1917 contained a lot of interesting information - Thanks, Mary!

-  influenza is normally most deadly to the very young (under age 2) and the very old (over age 70), and may have been due to partial protection caused by exposure to the previous Russian flu pandemic of 1889.

- an unusual feature of this pandemic was that it mostly killed young adults, with 99% of pandemic influenza deaths occurring in people under 65, and more than half in young adults 20 to 40 years old.-
  
-  Soldiers from Fort Riley, Kansas ill with Spanish influenza at a hospital ward at Camp Funston in 1918 where the worldwide pandemic began

- World War I did not cause the flu, but the close troop quarters and massive troop movements hastened the pandemic and probably both increased transmission and augmented mutation; it may also have increased the lethality of the virus. Some speculate that the soldiers' immune systems were weakened by malnourishment as well as the stresses of combat and chemical attacks, increasing their susceptibility

- Between 50 and 100 million died, making it one of the deadliest natural disasters in human history


So this information about this strain of the flu explains  why the victims in Doig's story were healthy young people, rather than the elderly.  Those mentioned were all men - except Anna, weren't they?  Weren't you shocked when you read that Anna was a victim?  Do you think  Doig ever considered Isaac Reese as a victim?  Why do you think he decided on Anna?

Barbara, your concept of Angus' obsession - as a dream of how his life could be perfect - makes a lot of sense.  What do you think Anna's death did to his dream?  How does he go on without this dream he has carried within for so long?

[CallieOK]

Babi,  the thing I could no longer handle was feeling manipulated into either being used or being the one who looked "tacky" for refusing - because the other person was so "sweet and nice".
(I edited this - so if you read the first version, I'm really not adverse to 'going along to get along' - just don't like being taken advantage of 

Joan,  no mustard plaster - but lots of Vicks VapoRub on the chest and mentholatum in the nose!

It seemed to me that Anna strung Angus along by saying (more than once) that, if she and Ivan ever had problems, she would know where to come.  I don't have the book in front of me - but didn't she even say this during their Sunrise Moment at the sheep camp?

Neither do I remember without looking if Adair kept mentioning going back to Scotland - or if this might have been Angus' thinking that she was going to leave him, too?

Since we readers are privy to Angus' inner thoughts, I wonder if either woman realized how their remarks affected Angus?

[salan]

I had absolutely no patience with Angus' obsession with Anna.  He really did not even know her that well and I think she was using him in case things didn't work out with Isaac.  I hated to see Rob turn so bitter.  I was hoping he would turn his life around again.  I thought the ending was a little unsatisfactory.   I learned a lot of Montana history and thought Doig's characterizations were really good.  However, I did not care for his style of writing and probably won't read any more of his books.  Sorry, Babi.  I usually agree with your choice of books!!
Sally

[PatH]

It seemed to me that Anna strung Angus along by saying (more than once) that, if she and Ivan ever had problems, she would know where to come.  I don't have the book in front of me - but didn't she even say this during their Sunrise Moment at the sheep camp?

Yes, Anna did say that during the sunrise at the sheep camp.  One thing we have to give them both: they didn't sleep with each other again.  Later, while making love to Adair, Angus remarks (in his mind) that he only slept with Anna once.

[BarbStAubrey]

I do not see Anna saying that at the sheep camp at the dawn meeting -

Page 282 - "Anna. will you do a thing for me?"
Scrupulously kept her eyes on the wool brawl in fornt of us.
"If I can, I will. You know that, Angus. What?"
"See the dawn with me tomorrow."
A blue flash of eyes from her, quicker than quick, then away. I reasoned to her profile. "It'd be our one time to talk alone."
There was that same narrow hesitation she had shown when I asked her four years before, Do you have the life you want? Now her answer:
"Yes. Show me a Two Medicine dawn."

Then the scene changes to the sheep shearing and Rob giving him a time of it including Angus saying it was none of his business, Adair and his "climbing out of bed this morning to spy on me was none of your business either, Rob."

Page 286
Lisabeth reacts and Angus decides it is for Anna to explain that he would only make it worse if he tried to touch it. The truth, Lisabeth, that i had asked your mother: Anna, when Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland then...if and when, Anna, is there the chance then of our lives fitting together? Of you answering my love with yours, if and when? And her, Angus, you know how I am. Beyond anyone else, really, you grasp the kind of person i am. So you know all too well, I can only decide as far as I see a situation. The judging hesitation, the click as she gauged. But I can't see ahead to forever, can I. Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether...Her eyes honestly telling me that same as her words. I'm sorry the words aren't any better than they were, those years ago. You more than deserve better ones from me. But they're the same, Angus. If I ever see that Isaac and I have become wrong together, I'll know in the next minute to turn to you. Again and yet and still: Isaac was not lastingly innocent of the hazard of losing Anna: i was not irredeemably guilty of loving her hopelessly. Not Proven, the verdict one more time. Well, we had life ahead yet to see if proof would come, didn't we. I had lost no ground since our meeting in Valier, I could stay on the compass setting Adiar and I agreed to, getting on in life as best we could for Varick's sake, hers, mine, ours.


I guess I am not seeing Anna stringing Angus along - I am seeing her answer him in a way not to hurt him but not give him any encouragement - only to say, I cannot decide - who knows the future - I want to be with Isaac - if Isaac is not around then...you know me... and assuming you are also free from Adair - but that is a whole lot of maybe's -

I see Anna as not wanting to hurt of make an enemy of Angus - How would any of us handle living in a very small town seeing at all the socials and all the work meetings an old boyfriend who still had a crush on us and who is a decent nice sort of guy who even has a similar level of education as compared to most of the other folks in town.  

[PatH]

Lisabeth reacts and Angus decides it is for Anna to explain that he would only make it worse if he tried to touch it. The truth, Lisabeth, that i had asked your mother: Anna, when Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland then...if and when, Anna, is there the chance then of our lives fitting together? Of you answering my love with yours, if and when? And her, Angus, you know how I am. Beyond anyone else, really, you grasp the kind of person i am. So you know all too well, I can only decide as far as I see a situation. The judging hesitation, the click as she gauged. But I can't see ahead to forever, can I. Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether...Her eyes honestly telling me that same as her words. I'm sorry the words aren't any better than they were, those years ago. You more than deserve better ones from me. But they're the same, Angus. If I ever see that Isaac and I have become wrong together, I'll know in the next minute to turn to you. Again and yet and still: Isaac was not lastingly innocent of the hazard of losing Anna: i was not irredeemably guilty of loving her hopelessly. Not Proven, the verdict one more time. Well, we had life ahead yet to see if proof would come, didn't we. I had lost no ground since our meeting in Valier, I could stay on the compass setting Adiar and I agreed to, getting on in life as best we could for Varick's sake, hers, mine, ours.

Doig's habit of giving us many of the scenes as replayed in Angus' head, with actual conversations mostly italicized, makes us work rather hard to make sure we know what is happening.  With this quote, I assume that it is what Angus decides in his head that he won't tell Lisabeth, and the italicized parts are what he and Anna actually said to each other.  If so, then Anna has again told Angus the same thing she had told  him before.  She will consider him if things go wrong.  Is she stringing him along, or saying what she really wishes could be so?  I don't know, and I'm hoping to sort it out here.

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm interesting - I feel the need to pull this apart phrase or sentence by sentence because I am not sure what is being said aloud and what is Angus telling us his version of what was said.

Ok straight forward in my mind that Angus wants Anna to explain things to her daughter
Lisabeth reacts and Angus decides it is for Anna to explain that he would only make it worse if he tried to touch it.

Here we have Angus telling us what he thinks is truth and what he believes he asked Anna - we do not have word for word conversation only his synopsis as served by his memory. I do believe he asked just these questions but not sure if his words were this forthright especially, sharing his concern that Adair would take herself back to Scotland. Neither here nor there nor writing a side story - let's take this as an actual, real life exchange on his part.  The truth, Lisabeth, that I had asked your mother: Anna, when Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland then...if and when, Anna, is there the chance then of our lives fitting together?

This then does not appear to be said aloud -  it is what he was thinking - he was thinking, just as the past sentence he was talking to himself - no one is hearing him - he is talking out the scene but not to anyone - All this is going on in his head while Rob is berating him - as if reviewing for himself to justify what he sees as his honorable behavior. This summation on his part can be as he understood Anna - as he wanted to understand Anna.
Of you answering my love with yours, if and when?

Now we have Angus repeating in his head what he believes Anna said to him - again, second hand information - we do not have this from Anna's lips never the less - again, we can take this for the reality of the situation.
And her, Angus, you know how I am. Beyond anyone else, really, you grasp the kind of person i am. So you know all too well, I can only decide as far as I see a situation.


More from Anna as Angus saw it...
The judging hesitation, the click as she gauged. But I can't see ahead to forever, can I.

The sentence in his head goes on as he tries to repeat what Anna said and how he was thinking when she was speaking
Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether...Her eyes honestly telling me that same as her words. I'm sorry the words aren't any better than they were, those years ago. You more than deserve better ones from me. But they're the same, Angus. If I ever see that Isaac and I have become wrong together, I'll know in the next minute to turn to you.

Then the next three phrases with semi-colons after each - the use of a semicolon is as if three independent sentences but without the pause of a period so there are 3 independent thoughts tied together under one major issue~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Again and yet and still:
says to me his understanding of Anna is as it has always been in his head - there does not seem to me to be anything from Anna that is reaching out - he hopes but she has no clue to her state of mind if Isaac were not in her life after her children go - that she feels badly that he deserves a better answer from her but it is the same answer all these years - she chose Isaac and so far there is nothing wrong between her and Isaac - if there ever was she would turn to him - but that is a lot of ifs - I see her as scraping the barrel to not hurt him.

Isaac was not lastingly innocent of the hazard of losing Anna:
This is coming strictly from Angus - he can see or imagine a hazard that Anna has not shown any hazard of Isaac loosing her.

i was not irredeemably guilty of loving her hopelessly.
Like proving a Geometry problem he has constructed a series of statements leaning on the preceding statement to arrive at the proof which is his justifying his not feeling guilty for loving her hopelessly - on that slim chance that she and Isaac would have a falling out that is not in evidence or in Anna's mind.

Not Proven, the verdict one more time.
He touches reality here - he admits that his verdict or proof is not proven - and so it is a picture he carries in his head that allows him to fantasize they have a future.

Well, we had life ahead yet to see if proof would come, didn't we.
This sounds to me like in his head he as determined that living life with this dream alive is his hope that the proof - the verdict - that he loving her hopelessly will be redeemed and he will not be guilty of loving hopelessly.

I had lost no ground since our meeting in Valier,
This is suggesting to me he is saying that his conclusion and Anna's actions as well as, her words have not changed in all the years since they met on the back school steps in Valier.

I could stay on the compass setting Adiar and I agreed to, getting on in life as best we could for Varick's sake, hers, mine, ours.
And so he sees he can and will go on as he has for all the years since before he married Adiar and before the birth of Varick - his love rejected in favor of another and now his only hope is that Anna's marriage will fall apart of that he will be bereft of wife and a son on his own and at that moment in time Anna will also be widowed.

I just do not see Anna holding out any more hope for him other than to be nice - and say if these impossible odds were ever to happen - she knows him best - she is not even really promising and saying she cannot see or imagine a future where this decision will have to be made.

Oh dear - maybe we are all going to agree to disagree on this one - when it comes down to it - does it really matter - is this story really about the unrequited love between Angus and Anna - what is this story really about -  I am having a difficult time imagining this story is simply a story of how Montana Sheep men from Scotland helped to develop this nation.

[JoanP]

"Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether..."  

I see Anna saying the same thing she said the day she told Angus she had told Isaac yes.  For whatever reason, she had chosen Isaac over Angus.  For as long as Isaac is there in her life, her words are the same.  She chose Isaac and as long as he is in her life, nothing will change.  Angus wants her to consider a life without Isaac,doesn't he?  - And he's trying to find out if she cares as much for him, as he cares for her.  Anna can't promise they'll be together, because there's still Isaac in her life.  She has never indicated disatisfaction with her life with Isaac.  Nor does she indicate that she's pining for Angus.

  I wasn't surprised that she can't think of a life without her husband.  In fact, IF she did hold out a promise to Angus, then I'd agree she was stringing Angus along, to fan his interest in her.  She even tells Angus she's sorry that she can't promise anything.  No, I don't think she's at fault here.

Of course, Angus thinks he still has a chance with her - at least, that he's lost no ground.