Plutarch--October Classics Book Club

[ginny]

Plutarch's Lives

Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.

Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest

The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be: Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-10: Pompey

     Oct. 11- 20:  Antony

     Oct. 21-?: Cicero

     Oct. ?: Coriolanus

     ?:  Windup

Marcus Tullius Cicero

Bertel Thorvaldsen, copy of Roman original, ca 1800

Cicero denouncing Catiline (Cesare Maccari)

Questions for Cicero

1. What is the role of the Orator in Roman society? Is there anyone in British or US history comparable to Cicero and the role he played?

2. What were Cicero's ambitions? His strong and weak points? How did they help/hurt him?

3. Cicero is the first Roman we've read about who was not accomplished in battle. How did this hurt him? How did it help him? What is the relationship between the army and politics in Rome?

4. Cicero is best known for suppressing Catiline's revolt. How did he do that?

5. Cicero is criticized all his life for executing Catiline's fellow rebels without a trial. Yet later, Augustus Caesar calmly agrees to execute Cicero as part of a bargain for power. What is the difference?

6. Are we getting to know our guide, Plutarch any better? What does this section tell us about his character?  
  

Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH

Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

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[ginny]

However look at things this way Who would you rather "hang out" with if you were a well to do Roman?
Who did all the woman fall for?
Who today remains a sort of"Superhero"?
Marc Antony of course.

You must be  kidding? A woman chasing drunk? Who deserted his own men and then lived to regret it? What part of Marc Antony is admirable? When he fell out with his former  friend Cicero who protested that he was wasting Julius Caesar's money left to the people? To the extent that it was Antony who put Cicero, despite Octavian arguing for 2 days against it, in  the proscriptions so he could have some concession he wanted? Who ordered his own faithful wife who was taking care of his own children by two previous wives out of the house?


No thanks.  hahaaa

[ginny]

I came IN to say I just came from the new George Clooney movie The Ides of March which advances the old fashioned idea (apparently) that loyalty matters, even when the most powerful men in the land are involved.

I was astounded when the movie was over that the people  around me didn't understand how the title fit the movie.

Despite Philip Seymour Hoffman's passionate speech in the middle of it that what mattered was loyalty. He said "if you are not loyal,  you are nothing. Loyalty is all that matters."

And this is 2011. I am sure nobody here would have a problem understanding the title in connection with the movie, whether or not they agree with the premise. I was glad we are  reading this actually. How au courant can you GET?

Nth degree?

Actually I left half of it out. Like the part where the Romans historically hated a conspiracy. To them a conspiracy  was anathema. Like the part where the conspirators approached their friends to sound them out on it and Plutarch reports in the Marcus Brutus section that not everybody thought it was a good idea.

Two of Brutus's friends were Satilius the Epicurean and Favonius, and he approached them both.

Favonius  (Plutarch Marcus Brutus page 1192) "declared his judgement to be that a civil war was worse then the most illegal monarchy; and Statilius held, that to bring himself into troubles and danger on account of evil or foolish men did not become a man that had any wisdom or discretion." Apparently  Brutus did not listen.

They left Cicero off entirely. The reason given that he was , well Plutarch again says it best: "for which reason they concealed the plot from Cicero, tho he was very much trusted as well beloved by them all, lest, to his own disposition, which was naturally timorous, adding now the weariness and caution of old age (Cicero was 62) by his weighing, as he would do, every particular, that he might not make one step without the greatest security, he should blunt the edge of their forwardness and resolution in a business which required all the dispatch imaginable."

 Well yeah. Since Cicero was the man who, 20 years earlier fairly spit at Catiline, the conspirator, and exposed him and his nefarious plotting  in the Senate to the point that the Senators rose up and left where Catiline sat. To read his blistering speeches on the subject of conspiracy  is to know the real Republic.

(And he died much more bravely than any  Cassius, Brutus or Antony, too).



Here's Cicero in the famous painting by Cesare Maccari denouncing the conspirator Catiline. Yes, I think he'd be a good one to leave off, too.

And with that, I promise, I'll stifle!

[JoanK]

GINNY: don't ever stifle!

We'll be reading about Cicero later, and I hope you'll point us to which of his speeches to read.

[kidsal]

Wonder if Anthony's men had any respect for him or just enjoyed his partying and good humor.  Most leaders would say this is the wrong way for a commander to act before his men. Quite a difference between Anthony's and Patton's leadership style.  Some of  Anthony's men deserted and were probably not too fit for battle after a night of carousing.  Just read the section where he led his men through a snow storm where thousands died from the cold just so he could meet up with Cleopatra. Beyond me why anyone would choose him to lead men into battle.

[Babi]

 Here are some kind words for Antony, from his critic Plutarch....
 “For there was much simplicity in his character; he was slow to see
his faults, but, then he did see them, was extremely repentant, and ready to ask pardon of those
he had injured; prodigal in his acts of reparation, and severe in his punishments; but his generosity was much more extravagant than his severity; his raillery was sharp and
insulting, but the edge of it was taken off by his readiness to submit to any kind of repartee; for
he was as well contented to rallied, as he was pleased to rally others.”    Plutarch also sees naivete’ in Antony. “He never imagined those who used so much liberty
in their mirth would flatter or deceive  him in business of consequence..."

  All in all, I continue to see the key to Mark Antony's actions and behavior as immaturity; a
man stuck at about age 16.  Physically strong and brave,  but much of what he does seems to
reflect the impulsiveness and poor judgement of a teen-ager.

  Side note:  The early Romans apparently  saw dreams as important.  Caesar(Octavius)  “retired before the battle (with Brutus) on account of a dream which one of his friends had”.  And Calpurnia, I recall, was very upset over a dream she had, trying to persuade Julius Caesar not to go to the forum the day of his assassination.

[Mippy]

Aside to your side note, Babi ~ don't you just love asides?
Augustus, whom we know here as Octavian and Caesar, was quite inclined to believe dreams and any predictions based on the priest's reading of signs, such as which direction eagles flew over the Forum and the entrails of an animal that was sacrificed.
                               
Another source of the dreams he believed in were those of his wife (later than our reading here) Livia, whom he married while she was pregnant by her prior husband.   Livia used dreams to influence Augustus, especially when it came to choosing his heir.  Source: Livia, Anthony A Barrett, 2001.

[ginny]

Such good points here! The BBC World News on the radio just now mentioned a special program on Evil, the commercial said that every person is capable of evil, and the point is how it starts: in small things. This program airs October 22. I thought it was germane to what we were discussing and might make  good collateral watching or listening.

[JoanK]

BABI: "All in all, I continue to see the key to Mark Antony's actions and behavior as immaturity; a
man stuck at about age 16.  Physically strong and brave,  but much of what he does seems to
reflect the impulsiveness and poor judgement of a teen-ager."

I think you hit the nail on the head. His obsession with Cleo is also like a teenager's crush.

We've seen that dreams and signs were very important to the Greeks: that seems to be true for the Romans as well. MIPPY: is the book about Livia interesting?

[JoanK]

GINNY: that sounds interesting. What channel is it on?

[ginny]

Well I thought it sounded good over the car radio (I get it on Sirius) but now that I see the people being interviewed it's not quite what I thought. I had thought it would be a sort of scientific look, maybe it will be. Anyway the BBC has a wonderful radio series of shows like NPR and they are fully on the internet for listening:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00kt6zf

Somewhere here hopefully they show on October 22, the Anatomy of Evil. I'm not at all sure now that it's what I hoped, tho. The last thing I want to hear about is somebody who IS evil talking about why.

[Mippy]

Hi, JoanK ~ The book about Livia is not my favorite, but it is full of fine research.  It's a bit dry, as if it were a Ph.D. dissertation.   
If I were buying just two non-fiction books about the people we are studying they would be:
   Goldsworthy            Caesar
    Everitt, Anthony      Cicero

[ginny]

I have to say I am just blown away by the Antony chapter. I am so sorry to see it end. There's not a boring minute in it, reads like a bestseller, it's just fabulous and full of all kinds of surprises. I had never read it.

It's got romance and tragedy, (is it a tragedy?) Supposedly a tragedy hinges on the hero's tragic flaw.  What.  I wonder,  was Antony's? He sure did Caesar proud at that funeral and it really could have gone either way. So in that he was brave and honorable. Maybe afterwards what he did with the receipts was not. What a figure!

But if it had not been for Cleopatra, I wonder if we'd really have known of him at all?

[Babi]

 I'd be interested in seeing what "Anatomy of Evil" has to say, if I can find BBC.   Oddly enough,
I was doing some researching on 'evil' just the other day.  I don't recall how my thoughts
wandered that way, but I was recalling a puzzling, seeming contradiction in the Bible.  You recall
we are admonished to 'resist temptation',  'resist the devil', etc., etc.   Nevertheless, there is
an instance where Christ advises  "Resist not evil...."   I decided to find out just what the word
meant in that context.
  I found it referred not to wickedness, but to trials, disasters, griefs...like famine, flood, military
occupation.  In that particular instance he seemed to be advising people how to deal with the
demands of the Romans.  For example, a Roman soldier could commandeer any Hebrew bystander to carry his burdens for one mile of a march. Christ suggested voluntarily carrying
them for two miles.  Consider how this changes the whole situation....on both sides.

[JudeS]

Yes, Antony had two sides to his personality...but then many great men do.
Is he a great man?
The scene Which made him known to all (and this was before Cleopatra) happened On March 14,44BC. Antony learned of the assasination plot and went to warn Ceasar. The assasins arrived first........................... Then, because of a speech by Cicero in the Senate amnesty was given to the assasins.
At Ceasar's funeral Antony gave the Eulogy. He snatched the toga from Ceasar's body and showed the crowds the stab wounds and the blood pointing to each perpetrator of each wound. Then Antony read Ceasar's will which left most of his property to the people of Rome, which was contrary to what the assasins had claimed. Public opinion changed and the assasins had to flee for their lives.

Yes, there were periods of debauchery and yet there were outstanding examples of military valour.
Do any of you think that all those clever, powerful women wanted him despite his flaws. He must have had something special to attract these phenomanal ladies.
It wasn't all good looks I imagine.

[JoanK]

We were too ambitious in our schedule. We'll never get through 4 more people in 13 days! I suggest, since we're deep into Rome at the minute, that we leavethe two Greeks (Alcibiades and Demosthenes) for another session, and just do the two Romans (Cicero and Coriolanus). That makes this reading all Roman. Then for next, or a later time, we can do all Greek, and really get into a period of greek history, as we have here with the Romans.

Notice, I flipped the order. Since Cicero has been hanging in the background of our reading, let's do him first. Then finish with Coriolanus. He was a little earlier, but there isn't a large cast of characters to learn.

So I propose: finish up Antony on the 20th (Thursday) Start Cicero Friday: it's short.

And leave some time at the end for Coriolanus. here we see another side of Plmutarch. He's pondering everything from acorns to whether the gods really make men act. We'll seewhat we think of Plutarch the philosopher.

Am I being too bossy? If I am, revolt and banish me. (or just say what you'd rather do).

[Frybabe]

Mippy, I've read Everitt's Cicero. As a result, I can't make up my mind whether I like him or not. He seemed such a lane switcher, going to whatever side looked like the winning side, or the side that he could position himself best. I am anxious to read what Plutarch made of him. But, oh, what a sharp mind and mouth.

[EvelynMC]

JoanK

No, you are not being too bossy.  I just love this---having a nice, relaxed discussion with everyone's input and taking as much time as we want to.  And not sticking to a set schedule just because it is in the heading.

I'll go along with whatever  and whoever you all wish to read next.  This is a great learning experience for me.

Evelyn

[Frybabe]

JoanK, if it means we get to add a few more people (on the Greek side), I am all for it. I haven't been able to fully participate because of all the goings on around here lately, so doing it as you suggest will give me another opportunity to keep up. I didn't finish Pompey so I could get started on Antony.

[PatH]

Frybabe, I hope at some point you will have the time to go back and read the ending of Pompey.  It's worth it.

[Babi]

 That sounds reasonable, GINNY.  I hadn't realized so much could be
crammed into what I assumed were fairly brief bios, since they were all in one volume.  But you're right; it is too much to discuss in our current
time frame.  It's just so 'meaty', so to speak.

 In the Phaedrus, Plato presented this theory even more graphically, comparing the rational soul to a charioteer whose vehicle is drawn by two horses, one powerful but unruly (desire) and the other disciplined and obedient (will). In Antony's case, the horse of desire appears to have the upper hand.

  I was curious about the reference to King Antigonus of Judea, since I'd never
heard that name. Apparently that was Antigonus II Mattathias (known in Hebrew as Matityahu) (died 37 BC) was the last Hasmonean king of Judea. He was the son of King Aristobulus II of Judea.  Mattathias is a name I can recognize.

[JoanR]

I'm glad that we have this extra time with Antony.  The Cleopatra part of the text sent me to Schiff's book (she uses Plutarch a lot as source material none better, I imagine).  Antony's end was so dramatic.  He botches his suicide and flees (HOW? So wounded!) to Cleopatra who has fled to her tomb and sealed the entry.  She hauls him up by ropes to an upper level - another HOW?  He dies in her arms. As the saying goes: "You can't make this stuff up!"
It's interesting to see what became of Antony's descendants - right down to Germanicus and Claudius.  Cleopatra's daughter by Antony (also named Cleopatra) was married to Juba, a king, but we're not told by Plutarch any more of her fate.  Schiff tells us that she and her husband turned the capitol of Mauretania into a cultural center complete with a splendid library!

[JoanK]

Evelyn, Babi and Fry: thanks for the vote of confidence. None of us had read the material beforehand, and I think we all made the same assumptions: that it was easier and shorter than in reality.

What abourt the battle of Actium? What's going on there? Here they are, fighting away. Suddenly Cleopatra, who has insisted that Antony fight by sea, instead of using his superior land forces, and that she command part of the fleet, comes sailing through the middle of the fight and flees. Antony forgets all about the battle and follws her.

What on Earth? Plutarch seems to think they planned that beforehand. But to what end? What do you think?

[Dana]

Hi, I've been travelling and so not keeping up with the discussion on Plutarch....but that quote about the evil that men do from a while ago is the wrong way round.  The actual quote is Shakespeare--Julius Caesar actually, and is,  "the evil that men do lives after them, the good is often interred with their bones"

[PatH]

In our final time with Antony we ought to tie up the end.  What happened at Actium, how well or poorly was it fought, why is it so important, and then the final days of the defeated Antony and Cleopatra.

[JoanR]

Mea culpa!  Enthusiasm got the better of me and I posted re: the final events too soon - a few posts back.  Should I copy it and move it up here?

[PatH]

Not at all, JoanR, let the comments fall where they may.  It's good to have loose ends tied up too.

I'm impressed with how much everyone has read or knows about our subjects.  You all know more than I do.

[PatH]

It's surprisingly hard to find a legible map of the battle of Actium.  This was about the best.

Battle of Actium

[PatH]

Those of you who have read other books about Antony and Cleopatra:  is Plutarch being fair to them?  Or is he overstating?

He's certainly devastating.  When Antony sails away from the battle:

"Here it was that Antony showed to all the world that he was no longer actuated by the thoughts and motives of a commander or a man, or indeed by his own judgment at all...."

[JoanK]

Here are the questions for Cicero. I'll puit them in the heading as well.

1. What is the role of the Orator in Roman society? Is there anyone in British or US history comparable to Cicero and the role he played?

2. What were Cicero's ambitions? His strong and weak points? How did they help/hurt him?

3. Cicero is the first Roman we've read about who was not accomplished in battle. How did this hurt him? How did it help him? What is the relationship between the army and politics in Rome?

4. Cicero is best known for suppressing Catiline's revolt. How did he do that?

5. Cicero is criticized all his life for executing Catiline's fellow rebels without a trial. Yet later, Augustus Caesar calmly agrees to execute Cicero as part of a bargain for power. What is the difference?

6. Are we getting to know our guide, Plutarch any better? What does this section tell us about his character? 

[JoanK]

In Cicero's career, he holds many posts. here is a quick list of some of them, thanks to the Durant's Story of Civilization.

Consul: you will remember is the head of government. There are two. they hold office for only one year. After the end of their term, they are automatically members of the Senate for life, but can't hold the office of consul again for 10 years.

The Senate was one of two lawmaking bodies: only patricians could be members. The other, the Tribunal, was elected by the plebes (ordinary people) but could only veto, not propose and vote on laws. By custom, the Senate had become supreme, combining what we would call executive, legislative, and judicial functions in one body. Durant claims that given how much power they held, they did very little abuse of it and praises the quality of men that were in it.

Lesser offices, many of which, Cicero held (starting with the lowest):

Quaestors: managed the expenditure of state funds and assisted in preventing, punishing crime.

The four Aediles were charged with the care of buildings, aquaducts, streets, markets, theater, brothels, saloons, police courts, and public games.

The four Praetors led armies in  war, and in peace acted as judges and interpreters of law. They had a special guard called the Praetorian Guard.

The two Censors: did just about anything else (including the census, building the aquaducts and the Appian Way, and approving the candidates for consul).

[ginny]

On Antony and Cleopatra and the Battlel of Actium, such as it was, but so decisive for Roman History, there's a wonderful clip of it from the Richard Burton Elizabeth Taylor Cleopatra movie which really sets the scene, on Youtube:

The Battle of Actium

Burton does a wonderful job here, and portrays Antony much as Plutarch did: a love sick kind of guy.  Modern scholars are not so sure. The bit about the sails alone in the ships which Plutarch mentions Antony as having said we don't want any of them to get away, are thought perhaps to have been there for another reason entirely: a planned break for the sea. They base this on Cleopatra's fleet of ships (not one as here in the movie) with the Royal Treasury of Egypt aboard and the fact that adding the sails to the fighting ships severely took up valuable room. These things are not mentioned in the movie but a lot of the detail is spot on.

This is wonderfully atmospheric especially if you've read Plutarch, and you can hit the four boxes to the bottom right of the screen and enjoy in its full appearance.

I'm going to find my Goldsworthy Antony and Cleopatra and see what he says about this Battle, too. They have just found the place where the prows of the ships conquered in this battle were displayed AT Actium, pretty exciting stuff!

[Babi]

 Since Antony's (and Cleopatra's) actions at the end have no documented explanation,
Plutarch is reporting them from his own viewpoint. We know his opinion of Antony,
and he could well have drawn erroneous conclusions about the events.  We simply
have no way of knowing why either one, Cleopatra and Antony, took the actions they
did.  We have few clues as to their motives and obviously there are many possibilities.

[PatH]

Nothing like a cast of thousands to make a battle come alive.  That clip led me to another.  This is the exact opposite in style; it's some young man's history class report, but if you're patient it has a fairly intelligible moving diagram of the battle.  One goof, though--at the end he has Antony and Cleopatra sailing north instead of south.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDdpst1Tz1s&feature=related

[PatH]

Since this is Plutarch, comparisons are very much in order, and I want to compare the end of Pompey and Antony.  Quite a difference!  Pompey keeps his honor and dignity to the end, fighting to the last.  He is finally betrayed, killed, and his body treated without dignity, but Pompey’s own behavior is noble to the last—a touching and tragic end.

Antony almost descends to low comedy.  He leaves the sea battle before it’s over, following Cleopatra.  They then both engage in a long, self-absorbed wallowing in defeat and their coming deaths.  He definitely ends “not with a bang but a whimper”

[JudeS]

PatH
Thank you so much for that video on the battle of Actium!!
My understanding of this important chapter of the World's history was so fuzzy beforehand.
This video made all the fuzziness turn into a clear and concise history of the era.
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I FELT that the Battle of Actium was important.
Now I KNOW  how  important it really was and how Antony really lost the battle ,his life and that of Cleopatras as well.

If I was that young mans' teacher he would certainly rate an A+ from me.

[JoanK]

An A+ from me, too.

It's time to turn to a very different man, Cicero. He is what we would have called a "self-made man". He had two strikes against him: he was not a Patrician (a descendant of the original families of Rome) but an Equestrian, the next class down: not like the masses of plebes, but not quite...

Second, he did not play a heroic role in the army. In Rome, according to Durant, the Army and politics were completely interrelated: men were not allowed to hold any political office until they had served at least 10 years in the army, and, as we've seen up to now, the top positions usually went to those who had won major battles. Even voting was done by army regiments, with each regiment having one vote (Of course, the Patricians had the most regiments, the Equestrians some, and the Plebes only one).

But the power of oration was important, too. We have seen how Antony was able to influence people after Julius caesar's assassination. How far will it take Cicero, and will it be enough?

[JoanK]

On another note, look at the bust of Cicero in the heading. He sure looks crabby. Does that crabbiness come through in Plutarch's descruiption of him?

I have a theary as to why he was so grouchy. I read somewhere (probably Durant) that he said he only made love to his wife when there was a thunderstorm. I thought of this when I moved to Southern california, where there are only two thunderstorms a year. Does anyone know how often it thunders in Rome?

[JudeS]

JoanK
Sounds like a plot for a new Monty Python act.
It also brings up the question of what Cicero did when there was lightning which usually accompanies Thunder.

[Babi]

 Oh, I don't know, JOANK. I think he simply looks stern and serious.  Plutarch does
report a sharp tongue.   Remember what poor health he had, tho'. So careful
of what he ate, and only one meal a day.
 I must confess to some nasty suspicions when I first heard how desperately ill he
was, and how much better he got after leaving Italy and going to Greece. But he
continued to have these digestive problems all his life. I still wouldn't want to
wager whether that was due to nerves and stress, or to damage done by early poisoning.