Elephant's Journey by Jose Saramago ~ November Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

The Elephant's Journey
by Jose Saramago

"History attests that in 1551, an elephant made the journey from Lisbon to Vienna, escorted first by officers of King João III of Portugal, then by officers of the Archduke Maximilian of Austria. Solomon the elephant and his mahout had already made a long sea voyage from Goa and spent a couple of years standing about in a pen in Lisbon, before setting off for Valladolid as a present from the king to the archduke, who travelled with him to Italy by ship and across the Alps to Vienna. In the novel, Solomon and his mahout Subhro (whom the archduke renames, with true Habsburg infelicity, Fritz) proceed through various landscapes at an unhurried pace, attended by various functionaries and military men, and meeting along the way with villagers and townsfolk who variously interpret the sudden enigma of an elephant entering their lives. And that's the story. It is extremely funny. Old Saramago writes with a masterfully light hand, and the humour is tender, a mockery so tempered by patience and pity that the sting is gone though the wit remains vital."  - Ursula K Le Guin

Discussion Schedule:   Nov. 1 ~ 7  pages 1-46  

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
Nov. 1-7 pgs. 1- 46
(ending with line:  "Well, it isn't every day that an elephant appears in our lives.")
 

1. Saramago's story is  said to be based on a little-known incident from the 16th century.  Can you find anything about the source of the story?  Do you think it's important to know?

2. What brought the elephant to Portugal from India in the first place?  Why does the queen of Portugal feel it would make a fitting gift for her cousin, the Archduke of Austria?  What was wrong with the gift they had already sent?
 
3. Why was the queen's first suggestion, a gold monstrance,  considered a bad idea for a wedding gift?  What do you know of the political  and religious climate of this period? 

4. Who do you see as the central character in Saramago's story so far?

5.  Have you noted any examples of Saramago's vaunted  sense of  humor yet?  At whom does it seem to be directed?
 

Contact:  Joan P

[JoanP]

Here's the story of the recent vote for a November discussion: Jose Saramago's The Elephant's Journey and Katherine Anne Porter's Ship of Fools ended up in a tie - both times!  After some consideration about what to do next, we have decided to try something different, that is, we'll try to do both discussions during the same month.  If you would like to participate in a discussion of The Elephant's Journey, please let us know in a post below.  If you had hopes of discussing Ship of Fools, please post in that discussion.
 
Wait!  There's more!  If you wanted to discuss both books, please indicate that in a post below.  
If you want to post in both books, but NOT in the same month of November, we'll need to know that too!  We may have to discuss each book in a different month.
Please let us know what you think!

Or let us know if you have a better idea!  

[PatH]

I'm not very clear on what we're supposed to be deciding here, but I think it's pretty clear cut for me.  I would like to discuss The Elephant's Journey, and am not much interested in Ship of Fools.  Is that what you need to know from me?

[JoanP]

Yes, that's exactly the information we need Pat - to learn if there is enough interest in each of the two titles to carry on separate discussions.  Also to find if there is anyone interested in participating in BOTH discussions.  Thanks for your response!

[deems 2]

I am interested in participating in this discussion.  I ran across Blindness (by Saramago) in a book store a long time ago.  I hadn't heard of the book or the author.  I read for a long time in the store, purchased the book and then finished the book at home that same afternoon.  Then I read it again.  He is a fascinating author.

[kidsal]

Have started reading this book so would like to discuss it in November.  Saw the movie Ship of Fools recently -- remember the first time I saw it I didn't understand it -- about 50 years ago - but wouldn't mind discussing this book also.

[JoanR]

I also have started the book and reluctantly put it aside anticipating the discussion - it's been somewhat like not opening one's presents before Christmas!!  Well - now the wait is almost over - at my age time flies in an absurd speed!

I don't plan to read "Ship of Fools" - am sadly conscious of too many of them already in our beleagered world.
 (I'm not really that  gloomy - it's probably the weather this morning!!!!!!!)

[JoanP]

A fine group gathering here already!
New grandma, PatH!  Have you held little Jacqueline yet?  And

deems2 - so happy that you plan to join us!  Especially since you have read Saramago's Blindness!  Questions about  his punctuation and  captilalization might be answered?

JoanR - I know what you mean about time flying.  It will be November before you know it - especially if you are reading Plutarch in October!  I'm really interested in hearing your reaction to the elephant's tale.

And kidsal, welcome to you!  A question - do you think you will be able to discuss both Ship of Fools and Elephant's Journey in November?  Please post in the Ship of Fools discussion about how you feel about this.  If you would prefer another month - maybe January - please mention that too.  

[JudeS]

I posted my answer on some other site.  I'll just repeat it here.
I would like to discuss the two books separately. First The Elephant's Journey in November.

I have read two other boks by Saramago and they are fascinating. I think about them often since they are "classics". That is they never leave you even though you have closed the book and returned it to the shelf.He well deserved his Nobel Prize.

I saw the movie of Ship 0f Fools many years ago. I remember a boat going off into the mist. I am not familiar with the author but am willing to give the book it a try.
I'm really pleased that my suggestion of The Elephant's Journey resulted in it being chosen for discussion. 

[JoanP]

I appreciate your nomination, Jude, and am happy it was chosen for discussion!

I am hearing from a growing number of you - that you would prefer to discuss Ship of Fools at a different time....from those who wish to discuss both books, but not during the same month.  Since we usually opt for something more "jolly"  in December...we can consider January for the discussion of Ship of Fools. - as The Elephant's Journey is off to such a flying start.

If you plan to join the Ship of Fools discussion, will you please indicate that over in that Proposed discussion?  It would be good for our planning - to have that information all in one place.

[BarbStAubrey]

I need one more read like a hole in the head but I just got off Amazon after ordering The Elephant's Journey Like others this author is one of the precious few who can combine fantasy with history and make the read worthy of an adult. I'm expecting by November to have the time to read, listen to y'all and share my thoughts - Ship of Fools hmmmm not sure - doubt it - not a fan of Porter plus the superior satiric observation of man's foibles is not my cup of tea.

[JoanP]

Super - I'm sure you will love the book and the fine company gathering here already, Barbara!  Welcome!

[Mippy]

Good morning, all!  Being in the middle of a super-busy two weeks, I'd like to put in my so-called two cents. 
                                         
I've read Ship of Fools at least two times, do own the hardback, and it would be great, for me, to put off the discussion a bit.   Porter was an outstanding novelist, although she did not publish a great deal.  I hope to be able to join the discussion later on, as y'all decide what to do.
                       
Aside:  speaking of hardback:  once again I've found this past season that Kindle reading is terrific for solo reads, but the technology lets me down, way down, in book groups.   Making notes doesn't work, because who knows what salient point a fellow-reader will make?  There's nothing like a real book printed on paper, IMHO, in order to flip back and look for someone's comment.
                       Enjoy both books, all!

[Cathy B]

Would very much like to discuss ELEPHANT'S JOURNEY by Jose Saramago rather than SHIP OF FOOLS.  Have never read the Saramago book and have read and discussed the Porter book ad infinitum in book groups.  Am bored and tired of the book.  Although Saramago was an unrepentant communist 'til the day he died, his books, nevertheless, are fascinating and engender great discussions...as long as our readers here don't get sidetracked and digress.  Thanks and please let me know what we're reading! 

[JoanP]

We'll do The Elephant's Journey in November - and probably Ship of Fools in January.  Will let you know about the second one before long.

Hello Cathy B - Welcome!  I'm sure you'll enjoy the group...and the discussion.  Curious, though - about your definition of "sidetracked" ?   

Mippy, I'll put you down for Ship of Fools - Do you plan to join Elephant?

[Mippy]

Hi and Thanks!   Don't count on me for Elephant, sorry.

[JoanP]

Some of you have probably begun to read The Elephant's Journey - and will know what I'm talking about when I mention Saramago's lack of captilization and run-on sentences, except for an occasional comma.  Many reviewers of the book assure us that you get used to it.  One referred to "the relaxed sense of informality between author and reader."  It's a stream of consciousness communication, I think.  I must say I got used to it, very quickly, though I find myself rereading some sentences to make sure I know who is saying what.  (No quotation marks.)

That said, I feel compelled to post some criticisms I'm finding about the Kindle version of the book.  Not sure whether those who are criticizing it are talking about the author's style - or about the way the Kindle version is set up.  Are you planning to read the book on your Kindle?  Do you already have it?  Would love to know what you think of the following reviews...

 
~ "This review is NOT about the content of the book. I am sure it is a wonderful story. Unfortunately, the publisher and Amazon provided the buyer such a dismal product that the book is virtually unreadable in Kindle format. There are no paragraphs, little capitalization, and little punctuation. This includes quotes for dialogue. It is impossible to tell when one person stops talking and another starts. DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THE KINDLE VERSION OF THIS BOOK."

~  "Don't know who put this book in kindle format, but it's impossible to read: no indentations, no quoatation marks, just one big run-on sentence with commas and an occassional period thrown in. Would like my money back. "

~ "Lacks puncuation, paragraphs, quotation marks, etc., making a good book a difficult read. Why? If I had known I wouldn't have bought it on Kindle. Way too hard to read. "

I wish I could see what the pages look like on the Kindle.  Will rely on those of you who have it.  If you haven't purchased it in the Kindle version, I'd recommend you check the book out of your Library...it really is a good book!

[BarbStAubrey]

My book arrived this evening - haven't had time yet to get into it - I was surprised though to see how thin it is so it is not a story of many pages. I bet though there is more packed into each page than most writers can pack into a chapter.

[Mippy]

I agree about the Kindle version.  I only read the preview and found the identical problems.   That's right:  don't get this on your Kindle!

[JoanP]

Thanks, Mippy.  To be fair to Amazon/Kindle, Saramago doesn't make it easy to adapt his story to Kindle format.  As Barbara points out - the book is thin - a mere 200 pages - (It probably would be longer if he had broken up his paragraphs and left more space within each one.  )

I've just checked my hardcover pages - and can see what Kindle's problem with the long unbroken paragraphs was.  At least you get to turn the page in the book - that breaks up the reading.  

But the advice stands - Saramago's work is better read on the printed page...  

[PatH]

I finally got my copy.

[JoanP]

That's good to hear, Pat.  Once you get started reading, will you let us know here  whether we ought to consider consider something of the 16th c. political and religious climate of the period before we begin?  Or do you think it wll only confuse matters?

I've come across two facts that you may find of interest -


 Christopher Columbus died in 1506 in Valladolid, Spain, one of the places of interest in this book - during this period..

One of the book's characters, The king of Portugal, João III, was a grandson of Ferdinand and Isabela  on his mother's side....

[PatH]

It'll be a week before I can start reading.  At the moment I'm busy fighting the Battle of Actium.  I'm guessing we will eventually need some background, but don't know whether it's best picked up as it becomes relevant, or acquired first.

[ANNIE]

I am trying to reserve "The Elephant's Journey" but my library's site is not running well.  It appeals to me except the 'once again' long running sentences of Saramago.  One of the reasons I didn't read "Blindness".
I am hoping the shortness and humour of this book appeals to me.
I have no interest in "Ship of Fools".  Saw the movie which depressed me. Don't need to relive it.

[JoanP]

Annie, I hope you can get your hands on the book.  It's quite a small book -   I don't think it is in paperback - so the pages are not thin, the print is not small - quite easy to read.  Perhaps this is what is making the run-on paragraphs a non-issue.  You are turning the page before it occurs to you just how long the paragraphs are!

Because the CHAPTERS are not named (or numbered), I'm hoping to be able to divide up the weekly discussion reading of the book by page numbers.  Will it work if the discussion schedule looks like this?

Discussion Schedule:

November 1  - 7  pgs. 1-46

 - Perhaps those of you who have the book in hand could check your copy for the the last line in the paragraph that ends on page 46 and see if it reads:

 "Well, it isn't every day that an elephant appears in our lives."

[JoanP]

PatH - I hope you survived the Battle of Actium unscathed~

"I'm guessing we will eventually need some background, but don't know whether it's best picked up as it becomes relevant, or acquired first."

Since the book is so short, maybe it's best to get into the background as it becomes relevant.  I am able to enjoy Saramago's humor - but feel that I'm missing some of the barbs on another level because I need to know the historical context.  What's going on between Spain and Portugal - and Austria?  And the Reformation and the Inquisition in each of these countries.  Don't get me wrong - the book  is not about these conditions - but you get the feeling that things are getting by you if you don't know the context.  It will be fun to delve once we get started...  Our elephant is walking through turbulent times~

[PatH]

My copy is a paperback, and page 46 ends with the sentence you quoted.

[JoanP]

That's good to know, Pat.  Thanks~
Have you started to read the book yet?  Or still fighting battles?

[PatH]

The battle's over.  Now we're defeating the Catiline conspiracy by means of brilliant oratory and clever politicking.

I've only read a few pages, but after a month of Plutarch Saramago's prose is pretty relaxing.

[JoanR]

A bit of luck!!  In reading the review of Saramago's final novel "Cain" in the NYT Book Review I came across this paragraph which helps to explain his style of composition:

   "This passage illustrates Saramago’s idiosyncratic way of presenting dialogue, running the speakers together without indentations or quotation marks, the change of speakers indicated by initial capital letters. Another way of recognizing the artifice of telling, with its typographical reminder that all these voices come from one authorial mind, the run-on dialogue also enlists the reader as collaborator, identifying the voices of characters for that split second of judgment"

So it would seem that this style runs through a lot of his work , not just in "The Elephant's Journey"

[JoanP]

"all these voices come from one authorial mind, the run-on dialogue also enlists the reader as collaborator"

Well that helps, JoanR - we will have a cohort of "collaborators" on our side!   Have you begun the book yet?  What is seemingly a simple story...if challenging to say the least.  I can not wait until we begin next week!

[kidsal]

From Portugal A Companion History by Jose Saraiva
The reign of Dom Joao III
Dom Manuel died in 1521 and he was succeeded by his eldest son, Dom Joao III.  He ascended the throne in the year Luther’s condemnation of the Catholic Church precipitated the reformation.  The first circumnavigation of the globe was completed by the Portuguese navigator Magellan working for the Spanish.  The Portuguese avoided any involvement in European wars.   They wanted to broaden their influence in Brazil and the Far East. 
The enormous effort to hold together a world empire and support the Faith was two outstanding features of the Portuguese evolution.  Dom Joao III petitioned the Pope in 1531 to introduce the inquisition in Portugal.  He had an urgent need for money and since the larger fortunes remained in the hands of the Jews and the “New Christians” he thought these could be confiscated to the Crown’s advantage.  The Inquisition began in 1541 and by 1684 1,379 people had been burned to death in Portugal.  In addition the book trade was closely supervised and all texts had to be scrutinized and receive the “Imprimatur” of the Holy Office.  The Inquisition was controlled by the Dominicans and they were able to isolate Portugal (and Spain) from the main currents of European thought.
The Jesuits were introduced into Portugal in 1537.  They devoted themselves to the dissemination of Christianity in the Orient and Brazil and to education.  In the next two centuries secondary education was primarily under their control.  In 1515 they reached China by sea but were only allowed to establish a settlement off shore in Macao.  Pepper was the most important oriental trade good worth ten times more than any other spice.   It was even used as an internationally acceptable currency.  When Isabella of Portugal was betrothed to Emperor Charles V in 1521 her dowry was paid in quintals of pepper. In 1543 they discovered Japan and soon controlled the trade route.   In 1547 the King reformed the University in Lisbon and began a College of Arts for those intending to go to the University.

Dom Joao III died in 1557.

[JoanP]

Thank you, kidsal!  You have anticipated the first question we will be considering when we begin the discussion next week.  We now begin to see  the period during which Saramago's story takes place - both the political and religious climate.  Now if only we knew what drew Saramago to that elephant!  And what that elephant was doing in Lisbon. 

But I don't want to get ahead until the others get here.

[JudeS]

JoanP
In answer to your last question, the answer is at the end of the book (my copy at least-hardbacked). This is what the author writes:
"If G.L.E. had not been Portugese leitora (lecturer) at the University of Salzburg,if I had not been invited to talk to her students there and if Gilda had not arranged for us to have  supper in a restaurant callef The Elephant this book would not exist. Certain unknown fates came together that night in the city of Mozart in order that this writer shoud ask:What are those carvings over there?"
The carvings were small wooden sculptures lined up in a row, and the first of them was Lisbon's Torre de Belem. This was followed by representations of various European buildings and monuments that clearly marked an itinerary. I was told that they illustrated the journey from Lisbon to Vienna made by an elephant in the 16th century,in 1551 to be precise, when Joao the third was on the throne of Portugal..............
I sensed that there could be a story in this......

[JoanP]

"the answer is at the end of the book" -

Aha!  No wonder I missed that, Jude - haven't read the whole thing, only the first 100 pages...
Don't you love to learn the inspiration for a book?  So, the name of the restaurant  in Salzburg, chosen by Jose's wife, Gilda,  was "The Elefant."  Now I'm beginning to wonder why a 21st century restauranteur would chose this name for his restaurant.  I'm also wondering whether this was an Indian restaurant...

[BarbStAubrey]

Seems to me this was a story told to us in grammar school about the elephant that was a gift from the king in Portugal to the king on the other side of the Alps who wore a wide mustache and a red gold trimmed jacket - kinda remember being told how the elephant was marched over mountains and through villages and was met with parades and village bands along the way - we all got into it making suggestions and asking questions - and then that story brought about the discussion of Hannabel marching elephants over the Alps to sack Rome after which the Pope was given part of Rome to take care of - 5th grade kind of stories - when our imagination were still able to conjure the exotic - in my minds eye I am trying to see our teacher and I am almost sure it was Sister Borromeo which made it 5th grade. 

[JoanP]

5th grade!  Either you have quite a memory or Sr. Charles had  a gift for story-telling, Barb~

"Hannabel marching elephants over the Alps to sack Rome"  Now that't something I hadn't thought of  - in connection with marching elephants!

[JoanK]

I'll be joining you reading this book. I am reading it on kindle: lucky I didn't see the reviews above: I'll bet I'm not having any more trouble with the format than the rest of you.

Not having looked to see where were reading to, I read til my kindle said I was 25% through. I'm a little bit
 past "It's not everyday ..." I'll have to look back to find it: never easy on the kindle, but if there's a new page start, it should be easy.

There's something about the format making you the author's collaborator: I'm definately much more aware of the author than usual. We can discus whether that's good or bad.

[JoanK]

Which way is Hannabel going in that painting?

[kidsal]

Vienna:
In 1282, Rudolf I of Habsburg installed his two sons as rulers of Austria. The Habsburgs will reign the country for over 600 years, until 1918.   The Ottoman Empire reaches its peak during the reign of sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (reigned 1520-1566)..
 In the 16th century Europe was in conflict with the Ottoman Empire, which occupied most of Hungary. It was under constant threat; in 1529 the Turks, having conquered the Balkans, laid siege to Vienna for the first time. They were not successful, but they stayed on for the next 150 years as a very dangerous neighbour in control of most of Hungary.  Constant inroads into Austria were a scourge at the time.  Vienna became a frontier fortress and trade started to decline. In 1533 Ferdinand I transferred to Vienna, making it the capital of the Holy Roman Empire
This period is also accompanied by the spread of Protestantism through the rise of Martin Luther. The Habsburg a strictly Catholic ruling family started to offer more tolerance and opening up to the idea of Protestantism, but not for long.
Under Maximilian I, Vienna was transformed into a center  for the arts. The Habsburgs were invariably elected Holy Roman Emperor, and by the 16th century their mighty empire had expanded into Spain, Holland, Burgundy, Bohemia and Hungary. Under Karl V, the empire was called 'the country were the sun never sets', because the Habsburgs also reigned in Mexico and South America. In 1683 Vienna successfully resisted the Ottoman army, a victory which brought Hungary under Habsburg rule.