Elephant's Journey by Jose Saramago ~ November Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

The Elephant's Journey
by Jose Saramago

"History attests that in 1551, an elephant made the journey from Lisbon to Vienna, escorted first by officers of King João III of Portugal, then by officers of the Archduke Maximilian of Austria. Solomon the elephant and his mahout had already made a long sea voyage from Goa and spent a couple of years standing about in a pen in Lisbon, before setting off for Valladolid as a present from the king to the archduke, who travelled with him to Italy by ship and across the Alps to Vienna. In the novel, Solomon and his mahout Subhro (whom the archduke renames, with true Habsburg infelicity, Fritz) proceed through various landscapes at an unhurried pace, attended by various functionaries and military men, and meeting along the way with villagers and townsfolk who variously interpret the sudden enigma of an elephant entering their lives. And that's the story. It is extremely funny. Old Saramago writes with a masterfully light hand, and the humour is tender, a mockery so tempered by patience and pity that the sting is gone though the wit remains vital."  - Ursula K Le Guin

Discussion Schedule:  
Nov. 1 ~ 7  pages 1-46
    Nov. 8 ~ 14  pgs. 47-100
        Nov. 15 - 20  pgs. 101- 154
   

     

*****

Some Topics for Consideration

Nov. 8 - 14  pgs. 47-100

(ending with line:  "...forgetting that these would probably be the first and only Austrians he would ever meet.")
 

1. What seems to motivate the commanding officer's decisions regarding solomon's delivery to the archduke?     Is there more to this army officer than  at first meets the eye?  

2.  "First triumph and then oblivion."   Does the mahout's "law of life" express either a  Christian or a Hindu belief?  Why can't subhro ever return to India now?   What are his future prospects for a happy life?

3.  Are you at all familiar with  hindu gods?  How does subhro defend their "fairytale" qualities to Christian beliefs?  Could he be brought before the Inquisition for his comments?

4. What indication do we receive that solomon is not happy with all the attention from the villagers?  Do you see anything in solomon' s behavior that indicates he has any feelings for those around him?

5. Why do the eavesdropping villagers go to the parish priest with the news that the elephant is "god"?  Was the priest's reaction one that was expected?  What did solomon seem to think of the priest's prayers?

6. What do you know of literacy in the 16th century?  Were you surprised that the commanding officer  knew how to read, that he has read the story of amadis de gaul and his oriana,  five times?

7.  How is the elephant received by the villagers at the castelo rodrigo?  Why is the commanding officer becoming concerned that handing over solomon might become a "casus belli"?

8.  Has the commanding officer - or any of the men developed  feelings or an attachment for solomon?  What is the point of the story of the  cow who withstood the attack of the wolves to protect her calf?  

Contact:  Joan P

[JoanP]

Jude, you are really thinking outside the box now to answer the question of the  central character!
"The historical period is the central character. This trip is an eye opener in understanding the world of that time, its peculiarities, its power brokers and it's people."

You bring to mind several questions this morning...
Do you know if Saramago was an historian?  I'm thinking of literacy during this period - "very little literacy"  as you put it...and yet.  Well, I'll hold that observation this coming week when we get into the next chapters.
  I felt sorry for the king, didn't you - trying to hide the fact that he couldn't read, turning those tasks over to his secretary.  Wasn't the king quite young at this time?  I'll have to check that.  (edit: I was wrong...
King João III was born in 1502 - died in 1557.  Solomon walked in 1551.  This was six years before the king died.)
I'm thinking  Carniero held  some power over the king - he could make up anything into the letters he read to the king.

Another interesting question...is solomon thinking or feeling or making any observations at all, as interpreted by subhro?  We'll have to consider that question more beginning  - tomorrow!

You've got me thinking outside the box this morning too.... I see  Saramago's central character as Everyman.  To me, he is saying that no matter how low on the ladder, or how high, from the elephant's mahout, to the king and emperor, everyone  of us, is concerned with our appearance to others - vanity, perhaps.
  

[BarbStAubrey]

JoanP your first post this morning had me thinking - I remember being blown away by the stables in Lexington where we lived for 12 years as compared to my conception and experience with stables and the Lexington thoroughbred horse stables do not even compare to the photo you found of what is now the carriage house museum.

This got me thinking how often we picture in our heads what we are reading based on our knowledge and experience - well one thing and another I learned that the most expensive property on the market in the US now is located in California at 75 million - and the most expensive on the market in the world is on 58 acres outside London at a price equivalent in our money to 140 million - and the most expensive recently sold was on the French Riviera to a Russian billionaire for 170 million. Of those three the most spectacular was the California Mansion and the hillside French Riviera Nice, Mansion - that is when it hit me -

Even looking and finding Bill Gates home that is a marvel of technology, each guest wears a button so the rooms are controlled to their liking - they only hear music of their liking, only the phone nearest them rings, the light is adjusted automatically as they walk through the house and according to the amount of daylight - anyhow the value of property has as much to do with where it is located and the price of the land.

All three houses of the most expensive recent sales are located in areas of limited land - California has always been more expensive since it is hemmed in by the ocean on one side and the mountains on the other - I did find the most expensive house in America that belongs to someone we never hear of - valued at 198 million Ira Rennert Mansion on Long Island NY and still it is a drop in the bucket in size compared to the Monastery.

For wealth beyond our imagination -although Forbes shows Bill Gates the wealthiest man in the world and Warren Buffet, second with all the remaining 8 on their list of 10 from either China, India or Saudi Arabia.  

We know that Warren Buffet lives in a very middle class house in Omaha the home of the richest men in China is not online and the men from India build houses that go straight up - which reminds me of a couple of houses built here in Austin by Indian families and they go straight up with layers of large balconies - India does have the distinction of the most expensive home in recent years built for 1 billion - where as it is the Saud i's, who I can see today would be in a position to build in the opulent fashion of sixteenth century Europe.  

Lots of cheap land  the city of Dubai may be luxurious but it is not the central for any wealth making hub  other than oil - London deals with world finance along with its history - not only does nearby Los Angeles have the offices to the movie industry but California as a state is the 5th largest economy in the world with many main offices in Southern California. Which says to me the dollars [figuratively speaking] can be spent on the structure and its contents in Dhabi as compared to most places in the west AND still the mansions of Abu Dhabi cannot match in size and opulence the Jerónimos Monastery.

All that to say that for us to have any concept of how Solomon was housed we could only use the references we carry in our heads and with all the travels of those in this group I have not heard of any of us being on 'come on over for tea and a swim' terms with any owner of a mansion in Dhabi.

[PatH]

That's certainly a magnificent stable.    It's hard to imagine mucking out horse stalls in such splendor.

But I think Solomon had more modest quarters.  He is described as being in an "enclosure", and the king has to climb a rustic ladder propped against a "stockade" to see the elephant, and the broom is stored in a shed.  He is obviously right by the monastery, though, as the king can see both the enclosure and the monastery at the same time.

[PatH]

Barb, I had a blast looking at all those expensive mansions.  In the English one, you could go almost a month without ever using the same bathtub twice, and most of a week before repeating swimming pools.  And the Indian one--400,000 square feet.  Maybe you spend your next vacation learning what's on the 18th floor.  Just for contrast, there were some pretty shabby buildings next to it.  Maybe they'll get rid of those.  My favorite was the Riviera one, though, for its site.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat you are so right - re-reading - something about a shed where he kept his tools, next to it a keeper's house made of planks with an unboarded roof all set behind a stockade where the rustic ladder climbed allowed the king to observe the ridiculous proboscidean. - maybe his size compared to the size of a horse made them see the stable was not the place.

As to Subhro - he seems to be much on his own without assigning to himself a station in life that limits. He takes care of his charge, Solomon with intimate knowledge to his needs, calculates and stratigizes the determination of his needs, is a far more creative thinker than the officers as to how to proceed with the 'march' taking into consideration the slowest in the procession of the king's animals and men, even noting the influences along the way that could slow any of the soldiers much less the animals.  

Now that was the bit that I saw as a message - we are all slowed by our immediate need for food and comfort.  The march forward must be like the logistics of fighting with a great army where water and food must be made available - there is a PBS show this week about how underground living animals can have two rooms - one for living and one to hold their storehouse of nuts and seeds to see them through the winter.

I am thinking how often we are slowed down because we need to spend time washing ourselves, feeding ourselves, cleaning up after ourselves and making sure we have surrounding us the larder and comforts that all need time and attention to maintain. More than a shell on our back like turtles we drag along our larder. Even hiking after we toss out and toss out - still we carry water, some food, change of socks and shirt, something to sleep in and on and under and according to the time of year something to make a fire plus antiseptic, gauze, maps and compass, knife and for most of us, a hand shovel and a roll of paper since we are not much on using nearby grass and leaves.

Trying to push forward to keep up with executing our vision, dream, imagined conquest we are reminded we must take time to maintain our body - just as a group of men traveling with an elephant or even their own horses and today, vehicles need gas, and large groups need medical - I wonder when the use of the cannon was introduced because it would require the use of horses and a large group of men to push it into position adding to the number of men and animals needing to be maintained - A real lesson here in the importance of the quarter master's job. Never thought of my life as carrying out the tasks of a quarter master but spot on.

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan you noted 'vanity' however, for me there was a quiet little sentence on page 15 that caught my eye. Lots of relief in the room along with smiles because Maximilian will accept Portugal's gift and then...

The contradictory feelings doing battle inside the queen had reached a synthesis, the most banal of all, namely that no one can escape his fate.

How haunting as the venerable name of the elephant Suleiman the Magnificent, easily changed by the king to Solomon. No decree, simply the wave of a hand. The queen must instinctively know her place as a wave of a hand sent her mother to a windowless room in a convent, at times called a prison, as she was labeled mad.

This is where Dona Catarina of Austria grew up. Her mother's fifth child, she was allowed to stay with her mother where as, her four older siblings were taken from her mother to be raised by their Aunt Margaret. Lost the link as to who the Aunt Margaret was. However, here are the links to the convent and explanation of her mother's life of 45 years in captivity. Also, the link to the history of her mother and how it happened by decree that she was usurped from her powerful position, labeled mad and sent to the convent of St. Clara in Tordesillas.

The convent/prison where Dom Joāo III, King of Portugal's wife, Dona Catarina of Austria was brought up. No wonder she went to confession every day just like the nuns in a convent and no wonder she saw every thought a possible mis-step unless perfect. And I wonder if she saw the treatment and sending away of the elephant as a reflection of her own and her mother's life.

The life of her mother, Joanna of Castile. Scroll down for the whole sorry story.

The first chapter of the book on her life available on Amazon is here to read - it is the most current with a better understanding of her symptoms and the political maneuvering to keep her and her powerful position locked away. Juana the Mad

[PatH]

Never thought of my life as carrying out the tasks of a quarter master but spot on.

You're so right, Barb, I like that.

[JoanP]

"As to Subhro - he seems to be much on his own without assigning to himself a station in life that limits."

The poor mahout - like a man without a country, isn't he?  So where does he go from here - after spending the last two years with the baby elephant - almost in solitary confinement it would seem?  Thanks for clarifying, Pat and Barb...he was not living in the sumptuous palace stables after all.

I can't help but wonder what his life would have been like, had he never left India.  Apparently he'd been caring for  the baby elephant since his birth.  Elephants enjoy a prestigious place in Indian culture, in religious ceremonies..., revered, loved, groomed...  He never would have languished in confinement as he has been here in Portugal.

Can he hope for a better life in Austria - once the novelty has worn off?

The mahout does not hesitate to speak up when he sees solutions that will make the journey easier on his charge. I don't think that subhro completely escapes Saramago's critical eye.  He writes -

"Now this story has not so far lacked the reflections, of varying degrees of acuity, on human nature..."

Perhaps "vanities" does not express the human traits, tendencies,  the author is revealing.  The need for recognition, pride.  I can't quite find the right word.  I see each character striving to get some recognition - look at subhro, wanting to be the one who gets credit for noticing the village - going out of his way to be sure the commanding officer knows he was the first to spot it.  The irony was that it was the commanding officer who noticed it on his own.  [unless you think that  the c.o. really did get the message from his guard and pretended that he himself was the one to notice the village?]

[JoanP]

"The contradictory feelings doing battle inside the queen had reached a synthesis, the most banal of all, namely that no one can escape his fate."

Barbara, I didn't mean to overlook that "quiet little sentence," you brought to our attention.  Do you think this explains why the queen develops her last minute sadness and regret that the elephant has been led off - in captivity it seems.  She understands what he is feeling.

"No one can escape his fate."  Do you see other characters in this story accepting this certainty?  A silly queston - but how do we know what our fate will be, until it happens?
 

[BarbStAubrey]

Some can try to conjure their future with the concept of fate however, for others it is a good explanation of their past when there seems to be no hands-on ability to affect what happened -

In other words you are powerless in the situation and with all your ruminations of how, if you only did this or that, you finally realize there was nothing you could do to affect your own life experience -

The Middle Ages is known as a time of certainty - God is in the heavens and Satin is below - everyone has their place and all the rules have been established - The Church rules the western world. and if you are among the powerless, serfs, the poor, a woman fate is as good a way of explaining away your personal history as any.

The rules are laid out during the Councils and the Councils that most affect the Middle Ages are the four Lateran Councils. The biggie Trent, happens soon after this story when they Church re-arranges itself in answer to the Reformation. These Councils touch on everything, from women, to marriage to what is rape, every conceivable function of the priesthood, taxation, to the why and how of the Crusades, to the non-acceptance of various groups, mostly the Greeks and the Jews, and specific behavior.

Here is a link to all the Councils where you can download the text. The Canons as a result of these decisions are usually listed at the end of the document. http://www.piar.hu/councils/

And yes, I do see the neediness that these characters have for recognition and positive affirmation to the point of Vanity. Need to read more to see if it continues to be a characteristic that repeats.

As to the mahout - who knows, it could be that had he stayed with the elephant in India he would be one of many where as, after a journey by sea and then languishing in a strange land for two years he has been given two sumptuous suits to wear and is a principle in the March across half of the mapped world. And so, like many of the explorers of the time he does not have family to accompany him on his ventures.  You nailed it Joan - he sure is a man without a country or maybe, hmm maybe he is a man with an adventure.

Are we back to fate - who knows what our fate will be but then, there is the whole argument over fate versus free will. The mahout seems to live by the mantra in this proverb - "Our lot may face the city dump, but we can choose to be cheerful."

[JudeS]

Oh Barb!  We can choose to be cheerful if our lot faces the city dump?

How much easier to be cheerful if our lot faces the city park!Then we don't choose, we simply ARE happier.

The fleshing out of our main characters is part of our journey with Solomon. The King , the Queen, the mahout, the elephant, the times they live in.  As new challenges emerge we watch as they handle their difficulties.  Each one managing in their own way.

I notice I wrote "we watch' because this book is so real to me, because of the author's descriptions, that I can picture each event in my mind's eye. Are others "watching" or just reading?

[JoanP]

Barbara, thank you for touching on some of the questions that puzzle. 

The Council of Trent...(1545-1563) under five popes: convoked to examine and condemn the errors promulgated by Luther and other Reformers, and to reform the discipline of the Church.  Remember solomon is on his way to Austria in 1551.

Fate and Free Will...maybe that's why I'm fuzzy on the whole idea of Fate - prefer the whole notion of Free Will..right up until the end when Destiny is revealed.

[JoanP]

Jude, I had to take a few minutes to find the passage in the book that sort of parallel's your question - " Are others "watching" or just reading?"

Here it is - at the beginning of the journey -

"The past is an immense area of stony ground that many people would like to drive across as if it were a road, while others move patiently from stone to stone, lifting each one because they  need to know what lies beneath..."

It sounds as if you are one of the latter...more interested in the journey than the destination.  Yes, I see each character putting on  flesh as the journey progresses.  Right now I'm "watching"  the commanding officer who takes over where the mahout leaves off...

[JoanK]

I don't have time to give these tghoufghtful posts the attention they deserve: back to them later.

I did take a second to look at the house in Malibu. I have been to malibu many times, and it isn't as beautiful as the beach I am going to today, 15 minutes from  my house, and costing me nothing. See you when I get back.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh for heavens sake - did not know but here we go - Fate is all hooked up with the Goddess Fortuna which spreads a new light on the old argument of 'fate versus free will' - I did not realize it was more than a philosophical argument.

Yes, the Council of Trent was taking place however, the Tridentine Creed that change the face of the church and the Catholic Nations in Europe was not issued till a year or so after the last convention, about 10 to 12 years later than our story just like Vatican II - the difference, during Vatican II with each vote on the 8 selected out of 16 commissions the outcome was published. However, the Canon changes went into affect at the end of the final fourth session.

Interesting, shades of the Reformation, during Vatican II the German's were the leading group of Cardinals among the so called Alpine Group that wanted the most liberal changes - There was great hope for Ratzinger since he was young Theologian and scribe for the Cardinal that was in the forefront of the Alpine Group - looks like the Curia is making their mark successfully bit by bit dismantling much of Vatican II.

Jude I agree - just be - however I don't write the parables just quote them.     And yes, heartily agree, Saramago really paints pictures with his words - you can see in your minds eye the hot plain and the nearby trees. After seeing Joan's find of the photo of the stable I must say I am not sure I really have a good picture in my head of the quarters for the King and Queen.

I wonder if that is another point of irony - the more you read, Portugal, at this time in history, must have been one of the wealthiest nations in the World - evidently there were whole ship loads of Cloves and in one of the bits I read that the king had a second nickname other than  'the Pious' he was called 'the Grocer' King because of his success in the Spice trade and other new crops from Brazil and here he has an elephant on his land that he gives as a gift -

Reminds me of Michael Jackson having all those wild animals at his Neverland Ranch and Pablo Emilio Escobar had his own private zoo and of all people, Paster John a Methodist Minister has purchased a Zoo for his personal enjoyment. What is it with having a bunch of wild animals out of their habitat in your backyard so to speak?.

[JoanP]

Good morning!

 Jude mentioned yesterday that she's "watching" the characters emerge as they handle their difficulties and challenges."  I'm interested to hearing more what you think of the commanding officer of this rather motley procession -   For some reason, I did not consider this a plum assignment for a seasoned army officer.  I saw him as another one of these characters, self-interests above everything - in order to advance in rank.  Do you see a different man emerging as the journey goes on?  This isn't exactly a plum assignment is it?  Would the king have selected his "best  and brightest" to deliver solomon?

The thing that shocked me most, perhaps it shouldn't have - the man reads!  What is he reading?  What language is he reading?  We read earlier that the king cannot read - relies on his secretary to read his correspondance.  Guttenburg's printing press was invented nearly one hundred years before...

"I wonder if that is another point of irony - the more you read, Portugal, at this time in history, must have been one of the wealthiest nations in the World."

-  Barbara, would you say that the wealthiest nation in the world at this time has a high literacy rate? I'm totally lost here.    I'd welcome any information - I'm totally lost here.  Is there a Portuguese language at this time...or are they reading speaking Spanish?

How do you see the emerging commanding officer?

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan just a quickie for now - one of those days - my reference to reading was my own reading - from what I have read in the past, without any current research, many (boys) were sent to the priests to study - their  job for not only the local parish priests but all those magnificent Monasteries were like our Universities today plus, they functioned as a laboratory for new gardening methods, a library and the place where books were hand copied till the press came along and then some were put into print but they still had to be bound etc. And so, I would imagine the peasant class were probably not educated to read but the rest have a very good chance they were educated.

I do not know when the practice stopped but I do know in the tenth and eleventh century the only way anyone could get an education in France and Italy was to become a priest - so there were lots of guys who were never attached to a parish or an order but became a priest just to be educated - I am thinking of Francesco Petrarch and his brother.

Looks like Saramago goes into the horrors at Goa or he must refer to them - Ok later when I have read the pages and have a bit of time...

[JoanP]

Don't you think it's surprising then that the king is unable to read -given the palace's proximity to the monastery?  Ah well, he has his secretary carniero to handle his correspondance for him...

But the commanding officer?  Perhaps he has studied at a monastery before joining the army?  He not only can read - he likes to read!  How unusual is this?  He's read amadis de gaul five times!  This is 1551 - This is before paperbacks - so he's got one of the original editions - The first known printed edition was published in Zaragoza in 1508

                       
first edition  1508  

Amadis de Gaula (original Old Spanish and Galician-Portuguese spelling) - is a landmark work among the knight-errantry tales which were in vogue in 16th century Iberian Peninsula, and formed the earliest reading of many Renaissance and Baroque writers, although it was written at the onset of the 14th century. Amadis de Gaula

Old Spanish and Galician-Portuguese spelling - have you noticed "galician" - it was used several times in these chapters?
  

[JoanP]

Wouldn't you expect that the road would be crowded with on-lookers, wanting to catch a glimpse of this large and rare beast walking through the neighborhood?  Maybe it is the desolate path they are following - or maybe villagers are fearful of solomon?

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan thanks for the bit on amadis de gaul - had to look it up to see if the book was translated into English and online - yes, it is but found a synopsis - not a complete synopsis as the author of the article says there are too many characters and plots but does give an overview of the first chapter - whew - secret marriage - a first child born and sent out to sea in in a box and found by a Scottish knight - two more children to this secret marriage of which one is captured by a giant and raised by a hermit - I think today we would think this was a soap opera but the story falls in line with Courtly Love that is the beginning of desiring to marry for love.

Joan the King can read - he reads Portuguese - I need to re-read but I am remembering it was that the King could not with ease read and translate the Latin into Portuguese.

As to Jerónimos Monastery - looking up the history it was in the process of being built - the structure in the photos was started in 1501 and it took a 100 years to build.

According to information online -

John I was educated by notable scholars of the time, including the astrologer Tomás de Torres and Diogo de Ortiz, Bishop of Viseu, and Luís Teixeira Lobo, one of the first Portuguese Renaissance humanists, rector of the University of Siena (1476) and Professor of Law at Ferrara (1502).

John's chronicler António de Castilho said that "Dom João III faced problems easily, complementing his lack of culture with a practice formation that he always showed during his reign" (Elogio d'el rei D. João de Portugal, terceiro, do nome). In 1514, he was given his own house, and a few years later began to help his father in administrative duties.

[JudeS]

JoanP
 On page 14 we find that the King has trouble reading Latin.  It doesn't say he can't read at al. I don't know what language he can read. The book doesn't say.
I will qout the line:
"Now don joao......although not entirely ignorant of the latin language, for he had studied it in his youth, knew all too well of his inevitable stumblings, prolonged pauses and downright errors of interpretation would give those present an erroneous
impression of his royal self."

From these lines I understood that joao was not a scholar  but was quick witted and savvy of other peoples impressions.
Perhaps the man had dyslexia-which has nothing to do with intelligence.

I will try to do a bit of research on literacy.

[Cathy B]

 --- not all authors and their books have profound things to say...something to ponder---just what is Saramago trying to say, imply, rant on about (he was, after all, an unrepentant authoritarian collectivist idealogue of the communist persuasion)...so there was a particular purpose to his writing this book and dredging up history, albeit even if it's a "charming" story.  Saramago, in all his novels, always had an underlying idealogical and philosophical purpose to his writing and couched it in good stories! (to contra-paraphrase Freud..."sometimes a charming story is not always a charming story...")

Cathy B

[JoanP]

The King can read...Portuguese, but not Latin!  Relieved to hear that , Barbara!- I was feeling badly for him.  Though I think he was feeling self-conscious about it.  It's difficult to look back through these chapters to find anything - isn't it?

But the commanding officer of the king's men appointed to deliver solomon is still a puzzle to me.  And the fact that he can read...and is reading the hardcover edition of  amadis de gaul.  Jude, if you find something about literacy in Portugal at this time - it would be helpful to understand what this officer is all about. You wrote that "joao was not a scholar  but was quick witted and savvy of other peoples impressions."  He seems to have that trait in common with other characters, does't he - the commanding officer and subhro, for example...

That's such an important point, CathyB - "Saramago, in all his novels, always had an underlying idealogical and philosophical purpose to his writing and couched it in good stories"  I'd been thinking all along that there's another story going on beneath the surface but have been unable to detect what he has been trying to do with this "charming story."  We'll have to put our heads together on this one!

Do you suppose Saramago is Solomon?

[PatH]

Saramago, in all his novels, always had an underlying idealogical and philosophical purpose to his writing and couched it in good stories!

That's a good point.  We'll have to keep aware of what Saramago's purpose might be.

[PatH]

I'm a little puzzled by the behavior of the village priest in exorcising the elephant.  Why didn't he use real holy water?  If he really thought Solomon was possessed, he would want to do things correctly.  If he didn't think so, why bother at all?  Was he just trying to placate or impress the villagers?  You'd still think he'd want to do it correctly.

Anyway, it's a funny incident.

[JoanP]

..."sometimes a charming story is not always a charming story..."

As we move along in the story, I'm becoming more involved with the characters - and subhro's relationship wth his "pet"....  I can see where one can read and enjoy ths "charming story" without understanding Saramaga's intention when writing it.  Perhaps that's the charm of his storytelling?  Since I'm not familiar with his earlier works, I  will take the word of those who have - that his works stories have  "underlying purposes" - but what are they?
It's funny - I've had a lurking suspicion all along that there was something I was missing - but now that I know it, I'm still in the dark.  Is the story an allegory?  Is the elephant's walk a metaphor as one walks through life?  Hopefully there will be clues in upcoming chapters.  but I have the suspicion that we've already missed some of them...

PatH - the village priest isn't using holy water - which is necessary for an exorcism.  Doesn't this say that he really doesn't believe that the elephant is in need of an exorcism - doesn't believe that he is possessed by an evil spirit?  But why go through the charade at all?

[JudeS]

Question#4: Do you see anything in Solomon's behavior that indicates he has feelings for those around him?

On page 94 we have the touching scene of Solomon's good-bye to the porters who are leaving." They put out their hands, palm upward and the elephant placed the end of his trunk on the open palm, and the man responded instintively , squeezing the proffered trunk as if it were someones hand, at the same time ..trying to suppress the lump forming in his throat, which would, if left unchecked , end in tears.......... there were moments of intense emotion, as was the case with one man who burst into heartfelt sobs as if he had been reunited with a loved one......the elaphant treated him with particular indulgence. He touched the man's head and shouldes with his trunk, bestowing on him caresses that seemed almost human........."
Aalso Solomon's relation to Subhro is very close,.  though not quite human. Sort of like a good master and a slave .

[JoanP]

Do you get the feeling that Saramago is not  consistant with his portrayal of Solomon? If you do, do you think it is on purpose?   There are times when he leads us to believe that Subhro knows Solomon so well that he knows what he would be thinking if he is capable of thought - and there are other times when the Subhro seems genuinely surprised at Solomon's actions.
There's the really touching scene you describe, Jude, - the rather emotional goodbye when the porters leave the convoy.  Subhro is puzzled at this - at the way Solomon withheld his affectionate gesture from some of the men.   Solomon seems to have thoughts of his own.

And then there's that incident  you describe PatH- when the village priest comes to perform the exorcism...Very funny -  Saramago leads us to believe that Solomon knew he wasn't using the requisite holy water to explain why he gave him that kick.  I'll bet the priest came away believing that solomon knew.



Backing up a bit - to the discussion of the "exorcism'  of those swine - and the villager who came for the priest for his help. - Did you notice that the villager had read the Biblical passage - pages "torn" from the Bible.  I can't get passed the idea that books were so available to these villagers at this time.  Do you think they were?  Or is this simply part of Saramago's fiction?

[JoanP]

Subhro is willing to concede the story of the birth of the hindu god, the elephant-headed Ganesh and  Christian beliefs - are both "fairytales."  I'm going to confess knowing very little, if anything of the Hindu gods Subhro describes.  The site below refers to the "Mythology" of the Elephant-Headed Ganesh.  Do you know anything of these gods as Saramago describes them?

Ganesha - the Elephant Headed God, Art and Mythology

 Fairytales, myths and religious beliefs.  Do you see Saramago lumping them all together - and then dismissing them?

[PatH]

Interesting question--how available books were then.  They seem to be pretty precious.  The villager doesn't even have a whole Bible, just a section of one, and he can't read it himself, but listens to his daughter, who can read haltingly.

The commanding officer has paid a fortune for Amadis of Gaul, and it's his greatest treasure.  Those of us who read Don Quixote here may remember that Amadis of Gaul was one of the Don's biggest inspirations.  When the priest and the barber hold a sort of kangaroo court to try the Don's books to see which should be burned, Amadis is the first to be tried, and escapes the flames as being the best of its sort, but some follow-up books about Amadis' son, etc, are not so lucky.

[JudeS]

I woke up this morning and the name Suhro hit me. Could it possibly be that this is really SUBHERO?

Perhaps this was just part of my unfinished dream-or not.

Say it over and over and it really sounds like subhero.  Can't  ask Saramago, he passed away.       
                                       

[JoanP]

Pat, I thought books were  precious too - can't imagine tearing out those gospel pages from the Bible. Can't imagine tearing up any book at this time.  There's another point of interest in this little anecdote. The Church disapproved fo the laity reading the Bible at this time - and for some time afterward.  This would explain why the priest tells the villager the Inquisition would be after him - or his daughter for reading the Bible...they were supposed to depend on the priest to explain and interpret the meaning.

[JoanP]

Jude, I like that - who would be the real hero, then?  Solomon, right?  The only problem I can see with this - Saramago wrote the book in Portuguese, right ?  Do you think that the Portuguese word for "subhro"  sounds anything like their word for subhero?  

Subhro said earlier in the book that his name meant "white"...  I can't figure out how "white" describes him - or why he would have been named "white."  I looked it up and found the Indian meaning of the name Shubhra is 'Radiant; pure; pure white'.  Can you see any of these words describing this baptized Christian, more or less?

I am eager to talk to someone about those Indian deities...especially ganesh with the elephant head attached to his body.  What did you make of this?

[PatH]

According to babelfish, the Portuguese for "hero" is "heroi" (accent mark on the o) and the Portuguese for "subhero" is "subhero".

[JoanK]

JUDE: I like that idea a lot.

[JoanP]

Well, there we have it, PatH - even in Portughese the name sounds like "sub hero."  Do we all agree then that Subhro is the subhero - and that the elephant is the "hero" of the piece?  Even though he doesn't have a speaking part, even though he doesn't seem to "DO" anything, except send occasional messages that may be interpreted expressions of caring or displeasure with the humans around him. Does it occur to you that Saramago is portraying this elephant as  "god" after all? 

 Subhro's talk about the god, Ganesh...beheaded and then brought back to life by the power of the elephant head-  The villagers who eavesdropped on the story weren't far off when they concluded that Solomon was the "god" they were talking discussing around the campfire.

We seem to be back again to CathyB's question about Saramago's underlying purpose in telling this tale. 

[JoanP]

Another "subhero"  in the plot might be the Portuguese commanding officer, who becomes more of an honorable figure - in these chapters at least.   I guess he'll drop out of the story once Solomon is handed over to the Austrians.  I'm watching Saramago's portrayal of this man without a name, who comes across as a man of sensibilities, a man who cares for his fellow man - without any special regard for the elephant in the room.  I'm curious - what do you see in Saramago's portrayal of this character?  Maybe I'm reading too much into him...

[JudeS]

I went back and read what some important folk said about Saramago. It sent my mind in a different direction.  I will quote two:
The Nobel Prize Comm. in 1998 said:" Saramago, who with parables sustained by imagination, compassion and irony continually enables us to apprehend an elusory reality"

Robert Pinsky, three times Poet Laureate of the United States spoke thus:"He is compared to that other large hearted, blasphemous comedian, Mark Twain.  Saramago takes an alert interest in actual villages and the various villages of the mind."

I think that what they are saying is that S. Is a clever,  very imaginative writer who with wit takes us places that many other writers miss. His ironic, yet loving take on animals and people brings us to a different and deeper place than we have been before. The potential is in our own minds but we need him to lead us to see those things that in a sense we know but are unaware that we know them.

Hope this makes sense to someone other than myself.

[PatH]

Yes, it does make sense, and he works on several scales.  Sometimes just a couple of words will be a tiny insight on something.  Ironic yet loving is a good description.  The trouble is, he's so much subtler and cleverer than I am that I feel I'm missing a lot.

It's interesting to compare him to Mark Twain.  There are some similarities, but Twain uses a very broad brush compared to Saramago's delicate one.