Author Topic: Destiny of the Republic by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online  (Read 56419 times)

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2012, 04:22:00 PM »
March Book Club Online

Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard



       
                                 

 A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” -  - The New York Times Book Review


"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.

With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard





DISCUSSION SCHEDULE
         March l            Part One (Plus Prologue)
         March 9           Part Two
         March  17        Part Three
         March  24        Part Four

Some Topics to Consider


 1.       Discuss the reason for Chapter VI.  1.  Discuss Candice Millard’s purpose in including details of Bell’s legal problems defending his Telephone Patents.  Was all this detail necessary for the story?

2.  Discuss Garfield’s Presidency as it emerged after his inauguration March 4, 1881.  What single duty occupied most of Garfield’ Business Day?  Did Conkling man, Vice President Chester A. Arthur pose a particular problem? What particular problems confronted Garfield in filling Cabinet posts with competent men?   Who were the men who comprised Garfield’s White House Staff? 

3.  Discuss Guiteau‘s appearance on the Washington scene.  What did Guiteau want from Garfield?  What was Conkling’s surprise reaction to Garfield’s appointment of Conkling’s bitterest enemy to head the N.Y. Customs House?

4.  Discuss Guiteau’s decision to give up his campaign for a Federal Job and to finalize his plan to kill the President.  How did he acquire a gun?  What precautions did he take to insure his own safety. Where did he plan to do the deed?  In his mind what did he expect the event would have on him personally?

5.  Discuss details of the assassination.  Why did the first two attempts at the church fail?  How did the alternate opportunity at the R.R. Station come about?  What steps did Guiteau take too assure his safety after the event? 
 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella  & Harold


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Harold Arnold - One of the facts that Candice Millard brought out in this book is the vast difference between the way a new President functioned after his inauguration in 1881 and how new president worked during most  of the 20th century up to the president time.  Garfield beginning the 2nd day of his Presidency faced a continuing line of citizens asking for some personal favor most often a Federal job of some sort.   In Garfield's case one of these petitioners was none other than Charles Guiteau asking that he be appointed to fill a major diplomatic post in France.  From the book we readers are left with the distinct impression that Guiteau had very little chance of getting that appointment.   After a couple of months of trying Guiteau too seems to have realized he was not going to France.  It was then that he began to formulate the details of his plan to kill the president.

The host of job seekers resulted from the "Spoil system”  that characterized Federal governance at the time.  Then there was no civil service.  Every 4 years after each Federal election, every non-elective federal job was up for grabs.  "To the victor, belonged the spoils'" and that day every Federal job from the highest to the lowest were eagerly sought by party faithful.   There was always a large army claiming party loyalty worthy of appointment, and in a democratic Republic every citizen had the right to a personal audience to ask for one.   This daily long line of People seeking Federal jobs characterized almost every work day of Garfield’s administration right up to the day he was shot.

After the reform minded Garfield became President March 4th 1881, the Grant wing of the Republican Party known as the” Stalwsart’s” whose leader in Congress was the N.Y. Senator Conkling  were frantically trying to preserve this “Spoils system”.    The principal story of this book is how after the death of President Garfield despite the strong Stalwart past of the New President, Chester A. Arthur, the first Federal Civil Service Law was passed and became law.

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2012, 04:57:08 PM »
I was much taken by the picture of Garfield spending his day with a long line of office-seekers, many complete strangers. We have to assume that Guiteau was not the only one who was completely unsuited for the job he wanted.

I was a Civil Servant for many years. With the size of government today, the thought of all jobs being filled that way: completely unworkable. Even in the smaller government of Garfields day, it must have been nearly so.

Even today, the political appointment system causes problems. The President appoints not only the Cabinet members, but several layers down from that. And even within a President's term, cabinet members may change, meaning the level below them changes. The problem comes because each new appointee wants to start anew, getting rid of whatever his/her predicessor did. This doesn't work well when it happens every 2 years, or even more often -- a program just gets started when someone new comes in and wants to start all over again. So nothing gets done.

It's at its worst when the party changes. The newcomers don't trust the civil Servants, assuming that they are of the opposing party (even though they hold their jobs for much longer and are about 50-50 Dems and Reps) and that the newcomers know better. Advice of "We tried that before, and it didn't work" aren't listened too, so the same mistakes are made over and over.

This is when the pols are well meaning and bright. When they are corrupt and/or stupid, things get even worse. These things are true no matter which party is in power.

maryz

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2012, 04:59:53 PM »
One tidbit I found amazing was that when Garfield came onto the platform for his inauguration, he was accompanied by two people, his mother, and the former slave, Frederick Douglass.  I found that amazing for the time.  The author doesn't make a lot of it - just mentions it.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2012, 05:15:54 PM »
The plan for discussing this book is dividing it into 4 weekly segments, one for each of the four parts that the Author and publisher used to divide the book.  Last week we did the Prolog and Part One, entitled Chosen.  This week are are doing part Two entitled, War.  Next week we will discuss Part Three, Fear, and the following last week we conclude with Part 4,Tortured For The Republic.  Each of our weeks begin on Thursday and end on Wednesday.


Come on all of you Lets Discuss.  The following are Some Part II Topics to talk about this week posted in the heading.  My last previous post concerned several of the points identified in this list.  YOU can use these to add your thoughts on these or other issues.  Also Previously I had pretty well taken issue with the author's inclusion of what I judged an excess amount of information on Bells Legal problems that seemed to me was not necessary for understanding of Bell's role in the book.  Apparently you all agree with me since I recall no one posting concerning this criticism of the Author.   

Also I don't doubt for a moment that there are other Part II issues out there that YOU might want to bring up.  If so,tell us about them. 


 1.  Discuss the reason for Chapter VI.  1.  Discuss Candice Millard’s purpose in including details of Bell’s legal problems defending his Telephone Patents.  Was all this detail necessary for the story?

2.  Discuss Garfield’s Presidency as it emerged after his inauguration March 4, 1881.  What single duty occupied most of Garfield’ Business Day?  Did Conkling man, Vice President Chester A. Arthur pose a particular problem? What particular problems confronted Garfield in filling Cabinet posts with competent men?   Who were the men who comprised Garfield’s White House Staff? 

3.  Discuss Guiteau‘s appearance on the Washington scene.  What did Guiteau want from Garfield?  What was Conkling’s surprise reaction to Garfield’s appointment of Conkling’s bitterest enemy to head the N.Y. Customs House?

4.  Discuss Guiteau’s decision to give up his campaign for a Federal Job and to finalize his plan to kill the President.  How did he acquire a gun?  What precautions did he take to insure his own safety. Where did he plan to do the deed?  In his mind what did he expect the event would have on him personally?

5.  Discuss details of the assassination.  Why did the first two attempts at the church fail?  How did the alternate opportunity at the R.R. Station come about?  What steps did Guiteau take too assure his safety after the event?
 

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2012, 05:29:03 PM »
I've now finished Part 2, which is short. Guiteau is an amazing figure. It's surprising that until now, he has avoided both jail (most of the time) and being committed. There is an interre4sting contrast here between Guiteau and some of the characters in Dickens' stories, written in England at almost the same time. Dickens writes of men who were confined (as his father was) in debtors prison for years, unable to pay their debts, of course, since they were unable to work. Yet in Guiteau we have a man who NEVER paid his debts, and got away with it.

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2012, 05:30:46 PM »
Again, the complete lack of protection that Garfield had is amazing, so soon after Lincoln's assasination. Will another result be the formation of the Secret Service? We'll see.

maryz

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2012, 05:36:22 PM »
JoanK, the Secret Service had been held, but it was involved with counterfeiting, not protecting the president.  I think I read that in the book.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »
Thank you JoanK and MaryZ on your comments above.

 I Know Joan that you have a closer experience to the Federal Civiil service than I.   I do know, however, that the original Civil Service law approved by Garfield's Successor, Arthur, covered only lower worker positions.  Most lower managements position remained political appointments.  Even as late as 1924 in San Antonio, my Grandfather a long term career Railway Mail worker received a political presidential appointment to a local south Texas Chief Clerk position.  He was terminated from that job in March 1932 when the Demo FDR became president but returned to his previous clerk status.  Later even Post Masters were made Civil Service.  I suspect today Postmasters and other Post Office workers have another but similar status under the current quasi Government/quasi Corporate organization under which the Post Office now operates.

Mary, that's interesting about Garfield having the former slave and his mother in prominent positions at his inauguration.  I missed that in my reading.  Today hasn't it become a custom for the President.s wife to hold the bible during the swearing-in portion of the program?

maryz

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2012, 06:44:18 PM »
Harold, I'm reading on my Kindle, so looked up the last name to find it again.  It says it's on page 78 (I guess that would be in the book).  In any case, it's in the description of his inauguration day.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

mabel1015j

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2012, 10:45:39 PM »
Mary, i was also surprised that Frederick Douglas was at the inaugural and that the author made so little of it. I would think thatwould create outrage in his opposition.

My other surprise was that there were 20,000(?) militia in the parade? Really? How boring. Am i  spoiled w/ parades w/ lots of bands? Ahhh, but 27 yr old John Philip Sousa led the Marine band. I love his marches, so much so that i play them sometimes from youtube videos. Some of the best days of my growing up was 4th of July and Memorial Day. My small hometown had very good parades on both those days and i now do love a parade.

It was also mentioned that "A well-known and well-loved minstrel named Daddy Rice waited patiently in the crowd....." i believe that is probably the same Daddy Rice who is considered to be the first white performer to use blackface. He also wrote and performed the song

"Come listen all you galls and boys,
I'm going to sing a little song,
My name is Jim Crow.
Weel about and turn about and do jis so,
Eb'ry time I weel about I jump Jim Crow."

And Jim Crow became a very popular minstrel figure.
It went on to be the the coined phrase for Jim Crow laws that discriminated against Blacks.


I've had to return the book to the library, so i'll be relying on my memory for some of the discussion.

Jean

maryz

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: March 09, 2012, 11:53:45 PM »
Jean, that 20,000 soldiers sounded like an incredible number to me, too. 
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

dbroomsc

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2012, 07:07:21 AM »
MARJ, I teach a biography class on various famous and not so famous people for a senior citizen group about once a year.  I taught one on John Wesley Powell about a year ago and found his life to be most interesting, but sadly not many people knew about him.  There were several books I used for the class, but Donald Worster's "A River Running West" is the only one I can recall without further checking.  There is also an excellent DVD called "Lost in the Grand Canyon" from PBS's American Experience series. 

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2012, 09:03:15 AM »
Mary, and all, I am reading the book on the I-Pad.  Besides being cheaper it is in many ways better as I have it well highlighted and marked with many discussion notes.  Also it is easy to find special issues in the book by using the search feature.  It is not the first discussion book that I read on digital devices.  Last year I read on the nook that in my opinion is the equal to the I-Pad so far as reading books are concerned.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2012, 09:04:50 AM »
HOW FUN TO COME IN AND READ ALL YOUR COMMENTS.  THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT IS SO INTERESTING!

For Jean (but I won't watch you parading around the house!) - click here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOCxegQupMU

Secret Service:  I would have thought America would have woke up to the fact that presidents need protection after Lincoln was shot; but our book states: " Lincoln's assassination was widely believed to have been a tragic result of war, not a threat to the presidency."

The amazing thing to me is that Guiteau had been in the White House several times, even attending "a White House reception that was open to anyone who wished to attend."

Tis a wonder that more presidents of that era were not assassinated with such loose protection, or none at all, and to think that John Kennedy, with all the protection America could possibly give, was shot and killed in 1963.

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2012, 09:29:56 AM »
Mabel, I was not surprised that Fredick Douglas appeared at Garfields inauguration.  Tthrough out the book he always seemed quite comfortable with exslaves and poor of all raced.

Welcome Dean, your work with seniors sounds interesting.  I have lived at a Seniors Apartnent for 7 years and have occasionally lectured here on Spanish colonial and Texas Indian subjects.  I have been a 22year docent at the Institute of Texas Cultures where  I work at the Texas Indian section.  I will be there this afternoon.  I also am a docent at the S. A. Missions National Historical Park Mission Eespada.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2012, 09:45:07 AM »
Roscoe Conkling, a powerful enemy:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Conkling

New York Customs House:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Custom_House


Am I reading right here, that the original Custom House still stands and the last Customs House was destroyed in 9/11"
Am doing this hurridedly:

http://nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM012-ALEXANDERHAMILTONCUSTOMHOUSE.htm




Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2012, 09:56:31 AM »
Before a federal income tax was imposed in 1916, a primary source of revenue for the federal government was custom duty. New York City, as the country's most active port, has had a Custom House since the country's founding in in 1781. In 1899, the United States Department of the Treasury acquired the Bowling Green property and sponsored a competition to build a new U.S. Custom House. Minnesotan Cass Gilbert, who later designed the Woolworth Building, won the competition by designing a building that was not just a functional building for commerce, but exuded a palatial grandeur. Construction began in 1900 and completed in 1907.

The interior of the building is dominated by the huge rotunda, which survives as one of the largest public spaces in New York. Commissioned In 1936 as part of the Treasury Relief Art Project, Reginald Marsh was commissioned to paint the elliptical space around the 140-ton skylight with sixteen frescoes. The larger sections portray eight successive stages of the arrival of an ocean liner in the harbor. Eight smaller panels, painted in grisaille to simulate statuary, depict famous explorers like Amerigo Vespucci, Christopher Columbus, Giovanni da Verrazano and Henry Hudson.

Above the main cornice on the sixth story are standing sculptures representing the great commercial sea-faring nations, from the Phoenicians to the Americans.

Central to Gilbert's design of the Custom House were four separate sculptures to be placed at the front entrance of the Custom House, representing four continents (from left to right) - Asia, America, Europe and Africa.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2012, 10:05:08 AM »
I'd love to put a picture of this lovely building here.  I'll see if I can do that!     I love old architecture and its history.


Alexander Hamilton Custom House (lower Manhattan)

JOANK:  How far down does the layer go in government civil service!  I had no idea of the corruption and the disruption when a party changes power.  

DEAN:  I love biographies.  Can you tell us of one or two that have maintained your interest?  We have discussed several here through the years.  I can name a couple of my favorites - Katharine Grahams' book - John Adams by McCullough - one on a poet, I can't think of her name (was the title Savage Beauty? Millay?).

ANNIE

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2012, 11:36:29 AM »
Ella,
Lovely picture!  I love the old architecture also.

I heard the most interesting interview yesterday, on public radio and wanted to bring the title of the book discussed here in case it might interest anyone.  The author has brought out many things that I didn't know about the civil war and the history of what was going on in many states at that time.

 Lincoln's handling of the first strike is incredible.  Sounds like a tactic that we have used before and maybe are using now with Iran.

My library has 24 copies, all out to read, and I am 11th on the list.  Ten other folks called and reserved it yesterday and I bet they were listening at the same time that I was.  

Anyway, written by Adam Goodheart, its entitled "1861-with short subtitle which I can't remember".  He covers only the year of 1861.   Was the war really all about slavery?  Were the states all in agreement on the war?  Anyway back to our book.  I am just rereading Chapter 7 or will be doing so after seeing all of Ella's links.

Oh, someone mentioned that we don't know much about Garfield's life before he was nominated but I remember that he was in the House and the Senate, and had been head of the Appropriations Committee and was known to be a non-stop orator on any topic.  He was voted into the House of Reps in 1862 but didn't take his seat until 1863 when Lincoln asked him to.  In 1879, he was voted into the Senate.  So he  had established himself in the government and was quite popular.  There was talk of nominating him for president in 1880 but he wasn't interested and wrote in his diary, "I have so long and so often seen the evil effects of the presidential fever upon my associates and friends that I am determined it shall not seize me.  In almost every case it impairs if it does not destroy the usefulness of it victim."



 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2012, 12:13:32 PM »
Here's what I read about the New York Customs House in your link:"The custom house existed at several locations over the years. From 1842 it was at 26 Wall Street; that building is now Federal Hall National Memorial. From 1862 it was in the Merchant's Exchange building at 55 Wall Street. In 1907 it moved into a new building, now called the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House, on Bowling Green. In the mid 1970s it was moved to 6 World Trade Center, which was destroyed in the September 11, 2001 attacks.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Eagle415t

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2012, 12:45:18 PM »
I am new here and posting for the first time on this book.  I got a bit behind in the reading, but once I started, I haven't been able to put the book down.  I love reading historical non-fiction, but it us so much more engaging when I can discuss it with others.  I am always driven to research and get more information than the book gives me, so I truly understand the time and topics referenced.  I will post more directed reflection on the book this afternoon-busy morning, but am so  excited to be here.
Tara Richards

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Henry Ford

marjifay

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2012, 12:49:47 PM »
Thanks, Dean, for your recommendation of the DVD and the book about John Wesley Powell.  I've ordered the DVD from Netflix, and put the book on my TBR list.

Marj
"Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a standstill."  Barbara Tuchman

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2012, 12:53:00 PM »
Thank you ADOANNIE for your  of the N.Y.  custom House history. I was surprised to hear that at the time of the 9/11 attack N.Y. customs was located in the World Trade Center that was destroyed.  Those of you who want to read the short Wikipedia article click the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Custom_House   



HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2012, 12:57:32 PM »
Thank you eagle for your post with comment on the Book.  I too found the book easy to read and understand.  Your further comment will be welcome and appreciated.

Harold

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2012, 06:36:05 PM »
EAGLE: WELCOME, WELCOME! We are excited to have you. Do you have a favorite period of history that you like to read about?

I've found I know little about the period covered by this book. I think we concentrate so much on the Civil War, we really don'rt think enough about the following decades.

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2012, 06:39:16 PM »
I couldn't understand why Conklin, in charge of the Custom House, was so powerful, until Ella explained it: "Before a federal income tax was imposed in 1916, a primary source of revenue for the federal government was custom duty."

So Conklin held the purse-strings (or at lleast some of them). Now everyone kowtowing to him makes a lot more sense!

Someone asked how far down Presidential appointments go. It seems to vary by agency. They go down into positions where expertise in the subject the agency deals with is required. Some presidents look for people who have that expertise. Others, especially when a party has been "out" for a long time, and owes a lot of favors, use the positions as a wayy of paying those favors back. It also depends on how big the agency is how much this disrupts the work of the agencies.

mabel1015j

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2012, 07:43:13 PM »
Welcome Eagle, i think you will enjoy our discussions. Check out the "non-fiction" site in the discussion index for continuing-forevermore discussion of non-fiction books.

OH! Ella! You couldn't have given a better choice of John P Sousa's marches. The Washington Post is my favorite, again because of memories.......when i worked for Dept of Army at Ft Dix, the week ended every Fri with a "colors ceremony" (lowering the flag) and that was the retreat march played every week. Two companies of brand new recruits (2weeks in basic training) and two companies of graduating recruits marched by the commander and the crowd to Wash Post March, " retreating the colors". I just loved it. I can't hear it w/ out seeing the marchers. It's kind of like the BRidge on the River Kwai song that i can't hear w/out seeing the British soldiers w/ -what was his name? Alec Guiness? - leading them w/his drum major baton.

The Customs bdg is a lovely bdg. Thanks for the link.i believe Theo Roosevelt spent some time as Commissioner of that facility, i'll check that out and let you know.

I know that the general schedule positions (non-appt) in the federal govt go at least as high as GS 15 which include supervisors of career specialty people at the pentagon. My guess is that's about three levels below the secretary (cabinet appt) of an agency.

Harold, i was not so surprised that Garfield would have invited Douglas to the inauguration, but to be the person w/him on the platform, that was a surprise and that the author made no mention of societies response to the action. I'm sure there must have been strong reaction. I believe that it was Theo Roosevelt (again :) ) who had Douglas to the White House which would have been two decades later and heard about it from the South. (i'll ck on that too).

Conkling sounds like he could have been a less sophisticated Karl Rove. It would be interesting to do a study to find out if there is always a puppetmaster behind or against each president.

Jean

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2012, 08:12:22 PM »
Lincoln had Douglass to the White House several times.

I wonder too about "puppetmasters". And will chester Arthur dance to his when he becomes President?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: March 11, 2012, 01:13:56 PM »
Karl Rove, puppetmaster, JEAN  kingmaker, he practically put Bush on the throne didn't he?   I don't know if the public ever realizes what goes on in the cabinet meetings or among staff.  Historians can dig for the information, of course.  But at the time?  

Garfield had so many problems, but he kept his cool, didn't he?  Both Chester Arthur, his Vice President, the puppet of Conkling,  were attempting to handle him and then there were the office seekers, every day entering the White House to speak to him.

I don't understand people who are ambitious for power.  As Garfield realized in office - "Almost everyone who comes to me wants something and this embitters the pleasures of friendship."   How to tell whether a friend wants something or just friendship???


Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: March 11, 2012, 01:28:46 PM »
And one of those in line to see Garfield was a man by the name of Guiteau, who wanted to be minister to Austria.

Would you recognize a murderer in your midst?  Would you have recognized Guiteau - after all he had worked for the Republican Party, even given a speech?

mabel1015j

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: March 11, 2012, 01:49:18 PM »
I think i finally see a flaw in Garfield, he appears to not be decisive, or not assertive in his decisions. Maybe i'm looking at this in hindsight, but, if he had vitally important things to do, why wouldn't he take control of the hours when people could "see" him?  Change it to two days a week, or shorter hours? I guess i saw this behavior in his not removing himself from the presidential nomination, but i saw that as being patriotic, or maybe an internal conflict of, rationally, not wanting to be president, but emotionally liking the honor and prestiege, but setting hours for "visitors"!?!

maryz

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: March 11, 2012, 02:34:05 PM »
I just thought to look at the BookTV web site.  There is a conversation with Candice Millard from November 2011.  It's a little less than an hour. 

Click here.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: March 11, 2012, 02:48:51 PM »
Mabel, Joan and All:  Just a quick comment concerning post Civil War American Presidents and the Public reaction to their social relations with Black Citizens.  Franklyn and Eleanor Roosevelt were certainly subject to criticism during the 30’s for their inviting well regarded Black singers to the White House, and for certain the Roosevelt administration was not the last to be subject to this sort of public bias.   

JoanK

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: March 11, 2012, 06:47:06 PM »
I started to watch the conversation with Millard, but saw it was going to focus on the part of the story that we haven't read yet, so decided to postpone it. I was surprised at how young Millard is.

dbroomsc

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2012, 02:57:22 AM »
Mabel I think you are right.  Garfield seems to be unassertive.  He is much too generous with his time especially when it comes to seeing people leaving little time for the actual duties of government.

Ella in the past 3 or 4 years, I have become addicted to reading biographies.  Some that I have especially enjoyed are: Six Wars at a Time by Howard and Audrey Karl Shaff about the life of Gutzon Borglum, sculptor of Mt. Rushmore; Dr. Seuss and Mr. Geisel by Judith & Neil Morgan; Appetite for America by Stephen Fried about Fred Harvey.

Currently, I am reading a biography on Belva Lockwood by Jill Norgren.  Ms. Lockwood was a 19th century activist and feminist who had to overcome numerous obstacles for everything she ever achieved.  She finally was able to obtain a good education, become a lawyer, become the first woman to practice at the U. S. Supreme Court bar and make 2 unsuccessful runs for president of the United States.  By the way Roscoe Conkling was a thorn in her side too.

ANNIE

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2012, 07:31:44 AM »
Welcome Dean!  Its so nice to see a new face in our discussions.
 
I noticed your mention of Fred Harvey.  I read a book about the Harvey girls that our Ella gave me about 5 years ago.  Entitled: "The Harvey Girls-Women Who Won the West" by Lesley Poling-Kempes, it's absolutely a delightful story about Harvey Houses and Fred Harvey who Ray B. Browne, Journal of American Culture,  credits with having been "a major player in the opening Southwest." You might enjoy reading that one too.  

Back to our book,(I know that I am behind the rest of you due to family happenings) I started the 7th chapter and was surprised at the history our author included in this story. For instance, I didn't know that we had always held the inauguration in March since George Washington's inaugural.  And continued to do so until FDR's swearing in?  I must google that see why it was finally changed.  ;)  So according to WIKI, FDR's swearing in was on March 4th, 1933.  Then is was changed to Jan 20 in the 20th Amendment to the Constitution.  They finally realized that making Congress wait for their new president to be sworn in on March th, was not acceptable.

Or that the Capitol had taken 75 years to build.  That the Smithsonian's Arts & Industries was once our National Museum and although it wasn't finished when Garfield was sworn in, it did have a roof and temporary pine floors where they would hold the traditional inaugural ball.  My gosh, how did they heat it?  Remember, the weather was cold, snow on the ground, high winds and lots of mud.
Then Gerrard tells us about the Washington Monument which was proposed in 1783, wasn't started until 65 years later and in 1880, it was still not finished due to lack of funds.  There were cowsheds built around it and pigs and sheep milling around its marble base.    She paints a pretty sad picture of the National Mall and its unfinished buildings at that time.  But I was happy to see that John Phillip Sousa led the Marine Corps Band.  I still love his marches.

So, now I will catch up by reading the posts that I missed over the weekend.
 
Harold,

Didn't Eleanor Roosevelt introduce a black opera singer at a public concert at Lincoln Memorial?  Was that Marian Anderson, the opera singer?  Yes, google says so!

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2012, 09:07:57 AM »
Yes, it was Marian Anderson I was thinking of yesterday.  I remembered the incident but had forgotten the name.

Harold

Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2012, 11:50:22 AM »
DEAN - JEAN - I believe it was the custom for the White House to be open to all visitors, to the public, during that decade.  I just saw sentence in the book - "presidents were expected not only to be personally available to the public, but to live much much like them. When President Hayes have traveled to Philadelphia five years earlier for the opening cermony of the Centennial Exhibition, her had bought a ticket and boarded the train like everyone else." (pg.90)

I just saw this sentence on pg 88 - "As the leader of a democratic nation, the president of the United States was expected to see everyone who wanted to see him." 

I'll look that up in some reference, but I think Lincoln and Grant had the same situation.

I'm not sure that I agree with you two about Garfield being unassertive.  I think he could fight when he had to - he "had fought everyone from hardened canal men to unruly students to Confederate soldiers" and he would pick his battles in Congress and the presidency.

He appoint an enemy of the powerful Conklling to the most prized position of all - the collector of the New York Customs House. "Let who will, fight me" - Garfield wrote in his diary.  This battle is about the power of the presidency.

HaroldArnold

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2012, 12:01:16 PM »
We must have further comment on the organization of the White House staff.  In marked contrast to the present complex organization comprising a scores of distinct departments and sections, Garfield’s 1881 office staff consisted of his private secretary, Joseph Stanley Brown a young man in his 20’s.  He was assisted by a few assistants  including a I think a typist.  This might have been the first introduction of this new device in the White House. 

Brown remained in the White House as Private Secretary  during the remainder or the term after Chester Arthur assumed the Presidency.  I was surprised but apparently there is no Wikepedia  article on Brown who apparently later married Garfield’s daughter Molly.  Click the following for addition material on his life.  http://www.worldcat.org/title/joseph-stanley-brown-papers-1730-1941/oclc/079455034   

Ella Gibbons

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Re: DESTINY OF THE REPUBLIC by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2012, 12:04:10 PM »
Thank you,  DEAN, for the biographies.  I'll certainly look them up.

"I THOUGHT JUST WHAT PEOPLE WOULD TALK AND THOUGHT WHAT A TREMENDOUS EXCITEMENT IT WOULD CREATE....TWO POINTS WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED.  IT WILL SAVE THE REPUBLIC AND CREATE A DEMAND FOR MY BOOK."  - Guiteau

(Many of these quotes are from the case United vs. Guiteau, which we will discuss in the last chapter of the book.

What a crazy fellow he was.  Didn't anyone recognize this?  I think I read that finally he was expelled from entering the White House because he became a nuisance.  Well, we must read on........................

Don't you love those pictures?  Garfield looks rather stern in that portrait of him, however.  Lucretia, a lovely lady!!!

And the old train station with horses and buggys.