Author Topic: Destiny of the Republic by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online (Read 56418 times)

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #160 on:** March 12, 2012, 12:06:40 PM »

March Book Club Online

Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard

A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review

"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.

With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard

Discussion Leaders: Ella & Harold

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Ella Gibbons -

Thank you, HAROLD, on those notes about the staff. We are posting at the same time today.

And Garfield, and previous presidents, had run the country on such a small staff.

Could be the first typewriter?

? Interesting, we are still, in a way, using the same keyboard aren't we?

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #161 on:** March 12, 2012, 12:19:42 PM »

Another interesting comment appearing in Chapter 8 was a discussion of the late 19th century of the attitude of the American Press and Public regarding Presidential Security that was summarized in a New York Times editorial as, "There is no protection with which we can surround them that will ward off danger or disarm it more effectively than our present refusal to recognize its existence. HOW'S THAT FOR BURYING ONES HEAD IN THE SAND?

JoanK · « **Reply #162 on:** March 12, 2012, 02:50:09 PM »

"As the leader of a democratic nation, the president of the United States was expected to see everyone who wanted to see him."

I saw that, too, and was touched by it. In the early days after the revolution, everyone was scared that America would turn into another dictatorship, and did everything they could think of to make sure that the President was seen as a representative of the people, not their master. I'd bet the above dates from that feeling. This was workable in a spreadout country, where travel was difficult, and few could even get to the President. But I'm surprised that it lasted so long.

How difficult is it to get to see ones representative or Congressman/woman? When you write, you get back a form letter.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #163 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:36:20 PM »

I remember in the summer of 1940 on an automobile trip to Washington DC walking unannounced into Paul Kilday's office in the House of Representatives office building with my Father and younger Brother. Within 15 minutes we were ushered into his office where we had a leisurely 20 minutes chat with the Congressman. We left with visitor entrance tickets for both the House of Representatives and the Senate. In particular I remember the Senate visit where at the time they were debating the proposed Military draft act that was passed and remained in force for the the next 35 plus years. Our system of Federal governance was a much simpler thing than today even then.

Killday at the time was the Representative representing the 20th Texas district that then constituted our entire Bexar County. Today parts of San Antonio are represented by some 5 different representatives. Since I moved back to San Antonio in 2005 I have been back in the 20th district that now has shrunk to just a small area around the center of the City. Other parts pf the city are now represented by 4 other congressional districts some of which stretch over a hundred miles from the city.

JoanK · « **Reply #164 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »

PatH reminded me that when we were children growing up in Washington, also around 1940 our mother would frequently take us downtown. When we would pass the White House, she would say "Let's go in and shake hands with the President." We never did it, but mom evidently believed that we could have.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #165 on:** March 13, 2012, 06:57:22 PM »

As the Senior Senator from N.Y., Rosco Conkling claimed the absolute right to name all Federal appointees to N.Y. Positions. He even sent Garfield his list off appointees to the Federal Cabinet. Garfield actually named several from his list but appointed a long time Conkling enemy James Blaine as Secretary of State. What really ticked Conkling off was Garfield's appointment of Judge William Robertson to head the N.Y. Custom house. Thinking that the N.Y senate would quickly reappoint him, he resigned in protest. But surprise, the Reappointment was not forthcoming. As a result though Conkling remained a greatly reduced voice in N.Y. and Federal politics for the remainder of his life he never regained his pre-Garfield control

Click the Following for the Wikipedia biographical sketch of Roscl Conkling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Conkling

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #166 on:** March 13, 2012, 07:06:30 PM »

Some of the points that some of you might want to talk about tomorrow to close our discussion of Part 2 of the book are How Guiteau acquired the pistol, his practice with it his stalking of the President at his Church on two successive Sundays and how he finally shot him at a D.C. RR station where Garfield had went to catch a train to take him to a reunion of his college class.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #167 on:** March 13, 2012, 08:07:41 PM »

As Harold suggested, we'll talk about the details of the assassination tomorrow. I am sorry I was out today at the doctor's office for tests. Back tomorrow sometime after blood work and errands.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #168 on:** March 14, 2012, 02:33:26 PM »

HAROLD AND I HAVE DECIDED TO ABBREVIATE OUR DISCUSSION - SHORTEN IT IN OTHER WORDS!

Let's discuss the whole book, okay? We will put a few discussion points in the heading for your consideration
I think most of you have finished the book, and if you haven't it is easy to read.

MEANWHILE ........

WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT A PRESIDENT WAS SHOT IN A TRAIN STATION??

"When Garfield walked in, Guiteau was standing right behind him........." The first bullet sliced through his arm and Garfield cried out - "My God! What is this?" Guiteau fired again...........There was a moment of stunned silence, and then the station erupted in screams."

It would have been on TV today!!! We would have watched it maybe???

Would it be on Youtube???

What are your thoughts?

maryz · « **Reply #169 on:** March 14, 2012, 03:03:36 PM »

Obviously, the times don't compare. The President then didn't have a gaggle of photographers and journalists following him around, so he couldn't do anything without having it reported all over the world.

I have finished the book - fascinating. And then I watched the talk and Q&A with Millard - also great. I have a couple more comments, but I'll wait until an appropriate time for those.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #170 on:** March 14, 2012, 04:28:23 PM »

Thanks, MARYZ, for your comments!

Until others come in, I was just surfing the web (isn't that a cool phrase, we would not have known what that meant 20 years ago) and I came across our old railroad station in Columbus, Ohio. I'm going to try to put a picture of it in here.

REMINSCING HERE! I bet if you google your own railroad station, you might find it?

There was such a protest from the public when the powers that be decided to tear our lovely station down, they did it during the night - that's an honest fact!!! Built a horribly ugly convention center on the site.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #171 on:** March 14, 2012, 04:32:47 PM »

My husband left for WWII from this station - but the cars would have been Pontiac or Ford (American made) - 1942

And in 1946 came home from the Pacific Coast to this station. I met him 2 years! later.

maryz · « **Reply #172 on:** March 14, 2012, 04:36:53 PM »

Chattanooga's train station has a whole new life as the Chattanooga Choo Choo Hotel. There are restaurants, rooms in train cars, shops, gardens, performance space. It's still well used. And, of course, we've taken Glenn Miller's recording to heart.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #173 on:** March 14, 2012, 04:41:12 PM »

Of course you have! And what foresight your city had!!! Cincinnati, Ohio did the same thing and it is lovely.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #174 on:** March 14, 2012, 05:59:50 PM »

Let me know when you're ready to talk about G's trip to Long Branch NJ, i have a follow-up story.

I love the beauty of those old rr stations.

It's so hard for us to even imagine the lives of presidents in the 19th century. Most people wouldn't even know what the resident looked like. Those who did had only seen his picture in a newspaper. There may even have been people in rural areas who didn't know the president's name. Therefore, many wouldn't know he'd been shot.

Jean

JoanK · « **Reply #175 on:** March 14, 2012, 07:23:19 PM »

Someone had the sense to keep the old Union Station in Washington, and turn it into a tourist attraction.

http://www.unionstationdc.com/info/albumphotos

It wasn't opened until 1907, so it was not the station where garfield was shot. But it was built with all the pomp and marble that the government could produce.

I don't know whether I should share this little-known fact that you WON'T find in the official history. One feature of the design was to be statues of roman soldiers to be placed high - up under the roof. The sculptor intended to carve them in the nude.

Whoever was in charge of the project was horrified! He insisted he wouldn't use them unless the sculptor carved clothes for them. The sculptor, in turn, was furious. He responded by carving the uniform of Roman soldiers (short skirts) but under the skirts, carving them in full naked glory. Since they are up, high, if you get under them and look up, you will see more than you bargained for!

(I always thought that was an urban myth, but a friend and I tried it the last time I was there, and it's true. We were laughing so hard, a guard stopped us, wanting to know what the matter was. We just pointed. When we left, the guard had called other guards, they were all standing around looking up with red faces).

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #176 on:** March 14, 2012, 08:34:38 PM »

Guiteau' first plan was to shoot Garfield at the church that he attended most Sundays. In fact he stalked the President on two successive Sundays. For some reason he could not get close enough either time. That's when he read in the newspaper of Garfield's planed rail trip to attend a class reunion at his college. The oportunity appear and Guituea shot the president twice. The second shot was the serious one. A doctor who happened to be there administered to Garfield by probing his RR station soiled fingers into the wound. I guess he was probing for the bullet, But those dirty fingers at that early point probably sealed Garfields fate by early on planting the infection.

I think the author in describing the details off Garfield's 3 month lingering in the hot summer White House bed room made a strong case condeming the medical staff as incompendent. They rigged up an air conditioning system that was nothing more than a fan blowing ambient air over a cake of Ice. I suppose it was better than nothing. The bullet had traveled a considerable distance through Garfield's body. It probably would not have affected the outcome, but Bells efforts to locatethe precise position was interesting. It invoved an induction dvice and it failed because of the close proximity of the metal bed springs. Considering the state of medical skill at the time, I suspect Garfiels fate was sealed from the beginning.

maryz · « **Reply #177 on:** March 14, 2012, 08:54:31 PM »

Bell's device didn't locate the bullet because Dr. Bliss would only let him use it on Garfield's right side (where Bliss said it was). Turns out the bullet was on the left side, and that's why the device didn't find it. And, you're right, the damage was already done with the initial infection.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #178 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:47:11 AM »

JEAN - go ahead with your story as we are just going to talk about the whole book.

YES, JOANK, I've been to that station in Washington. Wonderful! I went with our group some years ago. Wish we had known about the Roman soldiers (scandalous, huh) - we would have all gawked and giggled! Does JOANP know? Shall we tell her?

HAROLD, the chapter of the care of the president - Chapter 14 - was absolutely fascinating. I couldn't stop reading from there on. Can you believe some of it?

"Even had Garfield simply been left alone he almost certainly would have survived."

Or:

"If Garfield had been a 'tough' and had received his wound in a Bowery dive, he would have been brought to Bellevue Hospital...without any fuss or feathers, and would have gotten well."

Hard to believe, some of it:

They (the doctors) believed that the thicker the layers of dried blood and pus, black and crumbling on their laboratory coats, the greater the tribute to their years of experience.

PatH · « **Reply #179 on:** March 15, 2012, 11:03:16 AM »

For would-be gawkers, there are two rows of Roman soldiers, one with and one without.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #180 on:** March 15, 2012, 11:33:15 AM »

As i said, i had to return the book to the library, so i'm not sure how much of this story is in the book......

After being at the White House for a time, the decision was made to take the Pres to the fresh air of the Jersey shore. He would go by train, but the last part of the trip would be by wagon over a rutted dirt road. There was concern about how harmful that would be to JG. So in 24 hrs the local residents diligently built a mile of track from the station to the house where he was going to stay........ I assume that much of the story was in the book.

However, a favorite NJ tale continues the story........Twelve days after JG died, the rr spur was torn up, but an enterprising, historically conscious man bought the track and tiles and built what is now known as the Garfield Teahouse w/ the tiles and the center beam is a piece of the track, and it stands on the property of the Chapel of Presidents in Long Branch, NJ. Here is the wiki site about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garfield_Tea_House

Jean

JoanK · « **Reply #181 on:** March 15, 2012, 06:04:00 PM »

Fascinating. Can you have tea in the teahouse?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #182 on:** March 15, 2012, 07:20:09 PM »

Yes, JEAN, fascinating. But the tea house looks so small or is it? Thank you for that story!!!

Click on the gallery pictures here - beautiful - they look pen and ink drawings of the Church of the Presidents. It's at the bottom of the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Presidents_(New_Jersey)

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #183 on:** March 15, 2012, 07:27:02 PM »

Jean, that is an interesting story from wikipedia about the wounded Garfield being taken from the White House to the Jersey Shore, but I do not remember it being in the book. There is mentioned a trip by Garfield to the Jersey shore, It was just a week or so before he was shot. As I remember the account in the book Garfield still his healthy self just a few weeks before his being shot took his wife there on a quick trip. He though the fresh sea air would aid her recovery from her spring illness that for a time had threatened her life. Guiteau read of the proposed trip in the newspaper. As he did again a week or so later Guiteau stalked Garfield at the RR station. In fact he could have shot Garfield there, but he was so affected by the sight of Mrs Garfield that he could not bear to kill her husband in front of her, and he let the opportunity pass. Later after a stern evaluation of his decision he vowed he would never let such an opportunity pass again.

There was another opportunity that failed besides the one at Garfield's church. Garfield and Secretary of State Blane were walking the few blocks from Blaine's house to the White House. This was before the RR Station incident to the Jersey shore. According to our book Guiteau again had a golden opportunity as he trailed Garfield and Blaine walking the few blocks to the White House. Yet he did not shoot this time. Was this another example of Guiteau's lack of mental resolve?

JoanK · « **Reply #184 on:** March 15, 2012, 07:29:48 PM »

Even as crazy as he was, when he came to it he seemed to realize the enormity of what he was doing.

maryz · « **Reply #185 on:** March 15, 2012, 08:19:04 PM »

As I remember, Garfield was at the train station on his way to be with Lucretia in NJ when he was shot. Then, shortly before he died, they were going to take him to NJ to see if that would make him feel better. That was when they were going to lay that extra track. But that trip never happened.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #186 on:** March 16, 2012, 10:12:48 AM »

DO YOU THINK THAT ALEXANDER GRAHAM BELL'S PART IN GARFIELD'S STORY WAS OVER EMPHASIZED? It was a bit much, don't you think, or did you enjoy it?

ANNIE · « **Reply #187 on:** March 16, 2012, 12:07:15 PM »

Thanks to Jean, we have more history to take in about the building of the Tea House from the rr ties left in the spur built for JG on the grounds of the Church of the Presidents. Most interesting little bit of history about Long Branch, NJ. Seems like all of us want a piece of our country's hisory residing our home town.
My home town of Indianapolis has a restored RR station also with an attached hotel now. Its great fun to visit. Many soldiers and sailors departed from there during WWII and now they have sculptures of those passengers awaiting their train all over the station. The restoration story was in National Geographic back in the 1980's. And Indy has the Benjamin Harrison home the for touring also.

JoanK, I loved your story about D.C.'s rr station. Ginny and Ella and my sister, Mary plus me, all visited that station to have supper after seeing the Egyptian exhibit at the Art Museum. Very busy place. I remember when it as the rr station that we came into from Philly to visit the Smithsonian. So, changes have been made since then.

In the link we find pictures of the being restored chapel and the plans for restoring the Tea House. The chapel is now the Long Branch Historical Museum. Pictures of both are available in the link.
And no wonder, Garfield want to go there. It sits right across from the Atlantic ocean. I can hear the ocean waves gently crashing against that shore. How restful it must have been.

And about Bell's inclusion in this story, again, it fleshes out the whole story of JG's death. We learn how far we have come from that time. Wasn't the Industrial Age just getting started then? Bell did have a an important part in the attempt to save the president.
Another thing for me is the whole country came together to pray and watch and hope for their president to be saved. In spite of the Civil War's results left on the people, they were all in agreement about this one man.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #188 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:22:24 PM »

Mary - that's an astounding statement, that this author says the trip to LB wasn't as NJ states it. The Long Branch Historical Society - who i assume has researched the tea house appropriately - says it happened......

http://www.churchofthepresidents.org/About%20the%20LBHMA.htm

Scroll down a bit to see the teahouse story on their site....

Jean

maryz · « **Reply #189 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:28:27 PM »

Jean, I probably mis-remember. Sorry.

JoanK · « **Reply #190 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:34:02 PM »

I liked the story of Bell, even though it did seem a stretch to include him. But his was an interesting story in itself: I wish we'd had more of it.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #191 on:** March 16, 2012, 06:11:35 PM »

Regarding Union Station's San Antonilo, my town never had one. In 1900 San Antonio had 4 separate Rail Road Companys serving the city from 4 different stations. In my time the number had been reduced to 3 after the smallest RR that served the rural country south of S.A. was absorbed by one of the larger ones. To day three of the RR are still around but for freight service only, one of the Depots , the old SP remains and I guess it still functions as a Depot for the AMTREK Passenger service. They also hold public events such as rock concerts there.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #192 on:** March 17, 2012, 09:58:13 AM »

Yes, you are all probably right that including Alexander Graham Bell fleshed out the times, the era, and made a good book better.

And, as ANN stated, the fact of their president being killed somehow brought together a country that had been so recently divided and brought a feeling of patriotism for one country, one man, one of their own.

Just a curiousity on my part - WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD TO STOP AT A RR CROSSING? Gosh, it seems in yesteryears we were always stopping, counting the cars, waiting, waiting.

But to move on.....

The many rumors and theories about dark plots and conspiracies in the assassination of Garfield brought to my mind JFK's assassination (pg.168-169) At my F2F book club the other day the subject came up and lo and behold several of us had different "theories." It goes on.

How different the two tragedies were, however, in many ways. We watched history unfold on TV as LBJ stook the oath of office on an airplane (without looking that up I think that's where it took place, I know Jackie was beside him). Now VP Arthur is stunned, in despair and hiding.

What is your memory of that horrible day?

mabel1015j · « **Reply #193 on:** March 17, 2012, 11:19:27 AM »

A lesson that we shouldn't miss about the safety of presidents at the time is that the fact that not having continuous protection tells us that they felt presidents were in general safe from the public. They saw Lincoln's assassination as a unique situation, a one-crazy-man episode in a highly unusual crises in the country. Even JG's assassination can be looked at again as a one-crazy-man event.

It probably is hard for us today to think that way. We tend to see danger everywhere, and for presidents in this highly partisan world, that probably is correct. Although we look back aghast at the fact that the presidents had no secret service, it was not as necessary as we think of the need today. Even Lincoln, despite the threats after his election and his having to be disguised and hidden thru Baltimore and Maryland in order to get him to D.C., resisted Pinkerton's offer to be by his side to give him some protection. Pinkerton took on the task, regardless of L's resistance, but it was mostly only one man as a guard.

Have you seen the tv show about the renovation of Grand Central station? I don't remember now whether it was on PBS, or on CSPAN?

mabel1015j · « **Reply #194 on:** March 17, 2012, 11:23:29 AM »

Mary, i wasn't questioning your remembering the statement, i was questioning the author's facts.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #195 on:** March 17, 2012, 12:49:25 PM »

The following as some points to discuss this coming week as we discuss parts 2 And 3 this coming week:

1. Discuss Garfield's medical treatment? Why was he kept in a White House bed room and not in a hospital? Who were the mangers of his treatments? Were the Doctors component? What was the role of the wife and family? What were his plans for the Future. How was Guiteau charged and how was the trial managed?

2. Discuss Guiteau's state of mind immediately after the shooting? In Jail, how did he discuss the event with Reporters and what were his planns for his future? How was his trial managed? Was the Guilty verdict and particularly the death verdict really justified by the evidence of his insanity?

3. Discuss Vice President Arthur's position as Garfield lingere. Who ran the Government during this period? What unexpected factor's were drawing Arthur away from his previous allegiance to Conkling and the Stalwart cause? And at the end of the term on March 4, 1885 would Garfield's spirit been proud of the achievements of the 4 year administration?

mabel1015j · « **Reply #196 on:** March 17, 2012, 01:43:47 PM »

I'm looking forward to the answers to Harold's questions, sounds very interesting.

I don't have the book's reason for JG not being in the hospital, but from general knowledge, my recollection is that people went to the hospital to die in those days. People who wanted to survive stayed at home. Hospitals were rife w/ infections and not up to today's standards of cleanliness. I'm sure they must have thought he was safer at the White HOuse, surrounded by friends and family and the "best" docs.

Jean

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #197 on:** March 17, 2012, 06:48:41 PM »

The big difference between the Garfield and the JFK assassinations was that Garfield lingered for 3 months with greatly reduced capacity to govern while KFK was pronounced legally dead withing minutes of his arrival at the hospitable. This made LBJ's course of action clear under the express words of the Constitution. He called a Federal Judge that resided in Dallas and she came to the airport and swore him in as President on Airforce one before it took off from Dallas. I seem to remember that later In D.C. a Supreme Court Justice administered the oath again. In my opinion LBJ was legally President the moment JFK's heart stopped beating.

Garfield's case was different since his capacity to perform his duties was greatly reduced, he was still alive and even able to act in a vaguely limited way. At that time I am sure the Cabinet heads continue governing in their own way and under the circumstances existing at the time, there was probably not much adverse consequence. In the Cold War circumstance of the 1960's an incapacitated President might have been a serious problem.

Another period with an incapacitated President came in 1920 when Woodrow Wilson returned from Paris a very sick man. It is said that the President's wife acted for the President then. The situation was potentially more dangerous at that time. After the Kennedy assassination, I understand a procedure has been devised that would allow a Vice President to legally assume responsibilities for presidential duties temporarily if a President is incapacity. I am not familiar with the details of this arrangement, but I don't think we need delve that deep in this discussion.

JoanK · « **Reply #198 on:** March 17, 2012, 10:15:44 PM »

I admit I was surprised that there was not an alternative put into place while Garfield lingered. The pace of government must have been much slower.

Hospitals then must have been unspeeakable. Even thing like covering up chamber pots were not done. I'm sure as many people died from infection as wounds in the Civil War

In the book, there doesn't seem to be much doubt that Bliss's "care" killed Garfield. But he was following accepted practices of the day. How much is he to blame?

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #199 on:** March 18, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »

Mabeel by all means post yoour comment on G's trip to Long BranchNJ

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Author Topic: Destiny of the Republic by Candice Millard - March Book Club Online (Read 56418 times)