Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 204032 times)

JoanP

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Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« on: February 14, 2012, 04:49:01 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   
 
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  

the little old lady

 

INSTALMENT

I
II
 


   DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 March 1852
April 1852


 
   CHAPTERS
 
1-4
  5-7  
   
 

   DISCUSSION DATES

    Feb.15-19

    Feb.20-24

Mrs. Jellyby
               Some Topics to Consider

 
1. What does Dickens relate in the Preface about the two major themes in Bleak House? Have you seen examples of these themes in the first instalment?

2. How does Dickens describe the Court procedings of the Jarndyce case using a comparison with the London weather?  Is there any way of calculating how long  the Jarndyce and Jarndyce cause has been going on?  

3. Do you think the little old lady is going to play a larger role in the story? What do you think  is in that "reticule" she's carrying?  

4. Do you see any connection between the Dedlocks and the Jarndyce cause?  Why do you think Lady Dedlock may have fainted dead away when she saw the handwriting on the  document  her legal advisor brought to her attention?

5.  Does Dickens paint a sympathetic portrait of Esther Summerson?   Were you surpised when Esther became the narrator and expressed her feelings?   Why can't she love the women who have cared for her since her birth?  

6.  Upon her death, Esther 's godmother is revealed as her aunt.  "Aunt in fact, not in law." What do you think are the implications in this?

7.  Is it clear why John Jarndyce has sent for Esther, Ada Clare and Richard Carstone, all three of them his wards, all three orphans? How are they related?

8. What do you think of John Jarndyce's high opinion of Mrs. Jellyby?  How is Dickens using this character?  Do you think Esther will forget Caddy Jellyby?
 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online DL POSTS ONLY
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 05:11:27 PM »
 Oh do come  in out of the fog and the damp and dreary! You'll catch a death of cold! Find a comfy chair and something warm to sip as we prepare to spend the first day of many together, comparing notes on what many say is Dickens' finest novel.  It is so wonderful to have so many of you with us!

As you may know, Dickens told his story in monthly instalments  (that's the British spelling of the word) - (20 of them!) -  leaving his readers to ponder what  happens next - much as we do, waiting for the next showing of Downton Abbey.  We'll do the same thing - divide the discussion into those same instalment chapters... So this week, we'll begin with the first instalment, Chapters 1-4 as was published back in March, 1852.  But we won't wait a month to discuss  Instalment #2.  The first instalment is approximately 45 pages, depending on whether you are reading the hardcover, the paperback, or electronically. Let's experiment and see if five days on the each of the early instalments feels  right.  If you have trouble keeping up - or if you feel we are moving too slowly, please let us know.  We're depending on your input.

Keep an eye on the heading at the top of every page for the discussion schedule - tTry your best not to go ahead of the schedule, but you can always go back, okay?

Your first impressions?  Do you hear Dickens' voice already in these early chapters?  Did you think his Preface was important - or did you skim through it?  Really looking forward to hearing from you!  

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online DL POSTS ONLY
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 09:02:30 PM »
Welcome, welcome! It's warm and cozy in this discussion, have a hot toddy and pull your chair up to the fire. We finally get started on our journey through Dickens' England. Whether this is your first time, or you've been here many times before, I'll bet you've never been here with such good company as we shall be. So who wants to propose a toast?

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online DL POSTS ONLY
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 09:05:37 PM »
Welcome, everyone. I'm looking forward to reading Bleak House with you. I've seen a couple of film/TV versions but have not read the book. It should be lots of fun meeting all of the odd and humorous characters that people this book.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 09:18:14 PM »
At last!  Now we can get down to the book itself, well-fortified by all the things we've learned already.  Welcome to all, and a toast to our journey together.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 09:26:21 PM »
Marking my place - So far I've only read half the preface...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 11:17:51 PM »
I'm here.

kidsal

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 04:13:30 AM »
Dicken's style of writing seems so different from Great Expectations.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 04:15:26 AM »
I mis-read the instructions and read the first 5 chapters this morning - however, I usually get way behind in these group reads, so maybe it's no bad thing....

Re the weather and the court, I presume Dickens is getting at the fact that Chancery is hide-bound in legal claptrap - no-one can see through the fog to the salient points of Jarndyce v Jarndyce, - and presumably the lawyers don't want to because it's their bread and butter, as it was their fathers' and grandfathers'.

I also imagine that Esther's aunt is referred to as such 'in fact not law' because Esther was born out of wedlock?

Not sure about the other questions yet - and this is me who has read the book before, but with my usual outstanding memory I have only the vaguest of recollection as to what actually happens.  As I used to say to Madeleine when she could never remember which lessons she had at school 'It will all be a lovely surprise' (I wouldn't say that now....if looks could kill they certainly will, as the song goes).

Rosemary

rosemarykaye

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 04:21:45 AM »
Joan - I did post a reply about London fog a few days ago but it seems to have disappeared.  The fogs that descended on London until the middle of the last century were caused by pollution from coal fires and factories.  They were notorious and very damaging to people's health. 

Here is a link to a Wikipedia (sorry) article about the great fog of 1952, which eventually led to the passing of the Clean Air Acts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952

As a result of these, coal could no longer be burned in designated areas - I grew up in the London suburbs in the 1960s and we had to have something called 'smokeless fuel' for our open fire.  You can still burn ordinary coal outside the cities.

Iris Murdoch's novel "A Severed Head" is set largely in London during a long fog, and gives a good idea of what it was like - though of course by the 1950s they did at least have electric light, whereas in Dickens' day it was all flickering candles.

Rosemary

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 06:07:27 AM »
the first thing that struck me after rereading the introduction in my copy of 'Bleak House', was  re; Charles Dickens

the question of whether he was harsh with his wife for instances like ? tripping over her feet when walking and falling... & being upset by his children with their 'bumping and yelling' (sounds sort of like normal ways of being for children especially when putting 10 together in one household)--from introduction

while

in chapter 4 he characterizes Mrs Jellyby's absorption in her 'African work' so enthralling to her that she neglects or doesn't seem to care about her children daily needs; the child with his head caught in the railing, the child that falls down stairs

this beloved author!!

rosemary--that was fascinating about the London fogs & I went on to read about links to fog/smog situations in the United States
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

salan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 06:15:15 AM »
I was surprised about how "fogless" London was when I first travelled there.  I didn't see any fog the entire week.  Now I understand that much of it was "smog". 

What a plethora of characters!!  I am trying to jot brief descriptions of each to help me keep track.  Hope it works.  I feel very sorry for Esther Summerson.  I assume that she was born out of wedlock.  I think she can't feel love for those who care for her since they are always implying that she has been a burden and a shame for her family.

Mrs. Jellyby seems to bee such a "ditz".  Her children and her house are filthy.  Mrs. Jellyby just assumes that they will take care of themselves. 
Sally

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 06:20:46 AM »
yet he seemed empathetic to the children's needs in chapter 4 of 'Bleak House' by showing kind hearted Esther's compassion when she comes upon the children's needs

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 08:12:27 AM »
 Oh, splendid, I see we're off to a great start!  I will just sample that toddy,
thank you.  I've never tasted one before. 
  SALLY,  I think there is going to be a link that will list all the characters, with a
word of two about them or their relationships.  Hopefully, that will be helpful and
save you some note taking.
  The topic questions are great.  At this point, there seems to be no connection
between Jarndyce & Jarndyce and the Dedlocks,  but Lady Dedlock's faint on
seeing that handwriting suggests rather strongly that she recognized it.  No only
recognized it, but was profoundly affected.
  I would think we would see Miss Flite again.  She seems to be a fixture in the
Court of Chancery.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 09:16:53 AM »
I'll agree, Babi - we're off to a roaring start - and we've hardly begun to fill the room!   Sally is right about the "plethora" of characters.  It will be difficult to keep them straight.  We toyed with the idea of putting in a link to one of the many lists of characters available on the web - BUT they were so full of spoilers, gave away so much of the plot, that we thought better of it.
Babi solved the problem - by creating her own list of characters - by group.  It's perfect, I think, because it identifies the characters just enough to let you know who they are and where they fit into the story, without revealing the plot.  Here's a link to Babi's list - one of our DLs plans to print it out and keep it near as she reads. She can scribble notes on  the sheet as she reads too.  Good idea? 



The list now appears in the heading - under Related links.  Keep an eye on the heading - we plan to add all sorts of links to helpful information - maps and the like.

Another tip - keep an eye on Rosemary's posts...foggy Londontown is her old stomping ground, though she lives in Scotland now. AND, she has first-hand memories as "a trainee solicitor I spent many, many hours sitting around at court waiting for something to happen"

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 09:41:10 AM »
kidsal - your comment on Dickens' writing style being different than you remember from Great Expectations caused me to look up the publication dates.  We know that Bleak House was published in 1852-53; Great Expectations was published between December 1860 to August 1861 .
Do you notice a difference in subject matter, character description, use of the language?  Someone commented on his wordiness in Bleak House.  It's been so many years since I read (and loved) Great Expectations that I only remember the plot line now - and nothing specific about the style.

I'm wondering when he wrote the Preface to  Bleak House.  Do you think he included it in the original magazine-like publications - or later, when all of the instalments were put together in book form.  I paid close attention to what he was saying in the Preface - as I thought it was the author speaking directly to his readers about what he intended to say in the novel.

I'm going to add here that I'm not happy with the paragraphs in the heading that describes this novel.  It was more than Esther Summerson's story, poor, poor unfortunate girl.  From the Preface we learn that Dickens had another purpose in writing this story...as he tells us of his two main themes in the story.  I hope you can help to flesh out the description of the novel for our heading here.

Enough from me just now - want to hear from you!

pedln

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 11:17:03 AM »
I have read very little Dickens, mostly just know “about” his works or perhaps seen a film.

My first thoughts as I started Bleak House went back to someone here asking if Dickens was paid by the word.  But then in jumps Mr. Tangle with utmost sparseness.

   “Begludship’s pardon --  boy.
   “Begludship’s pardon – dead”

Is there supposed to be humor here?  I seem to be finding some.  Jarndyce & Jarndyce -- euphemism for “til h___ freezes over”

While reading this first installment – and I like that idea very much – one can’t help but think of Dickens’ readers.  What did they think of that first chapter when they read about the fog?  Who were these readers?  All upper class or some common folk, too.?  Did they talk about Esther around the 1852-style workplace water fountain?  Does Dickens  leave them hanging at the end of each instalment (haven’t quite finished Chpt. 4)

I was glad when Dickens gave Esther the microphone – the better to get to know her.  How would she know how to love the women who cared for her – she herself was really not shown any love.



JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 12:43:34 PM »
Thanks Joan P for that list of characters. I printed it out and willput the chapter number by each name as we come to that character.

The question about "who was Dickens writing for?" and "What was the literacy rate?" sent me to research that matter. Here is what I found:

In 1850 England had 16% of its population in school. By 1887 there was 16%.
By 1850 the printing and publishing industry was very developed. The highly widespread railway system allowed the sending of newspapers and magazines to most parts of the country.
The literacy was growing rapidly and this led to a large market for easily read , cheap books ,magazines and newspapers.
There was also a well developed Postal system by 1850. A mass of books , magazines and ADVERTISEMENTS, were sent by post.  The adverts gave much work to 'jobbing' printers.

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 12:47:03 PM »
Sorry about my mistake!
The literacy rate in1850 was 12%. But if one person in a household could read he would read aloud to the other members.
No television or radio so reading alloud filled the void.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 04:40:41 PM »
Fascinating about the fog. i knew it was partly caused by coal, but assumed that London was also very foggy. I love Dickens' description of it and symbolic use of it.

I like the idea of fog today. It's one of the 12 days a year we have rain here in Southern california. I miss rain so much, I went and sat on my (covered) porch, drinking hot lemonade and watching the rain. We had planned a walk on the beach: we may go anyway.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 04:46:07 PM »
"Mrs. Jellyby" is a typuical Dickens character: he takes one characteristic and exaggerates it. As an old social activist, I recognize her, and also recognize the exaggerated portrait that is used to belittle social activists (why don't you go home and take care of your husband). Of course, no one asks why MR. jellyby, who doesn't seem to have anything to do, doesn't get the house organized and see that the house and chuildren are taken care of.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 05:47:24 PM »
From the preface: 'In Bleak House I have purposely dwelt upon the romantic side of familiar things. I believe I have never had so many readers as in this book. May we meet again.

That makes it sound like a pleasant read, doesn't it? After just telling us about the 'monstrous wrong from beginning to end', of the history of the Court of Chancery, as set up in the time of Richard the Second! For added interest he will throw in an unusual case of Spontaneous Combustion. How romantic can you get?

In the heading we are promised a happy ending to the story. What a miraculous feat for the author. He recognizes the impossible odds himself. As he puts it:

This is the Court of Chancery; which has its decaying houses and its blighted lands in every shire; which has its worn-out lunatic in every madhouse, and its dead in every churchyard; which has its ruined suitor, with his slipshod heels and threadbare dress, borrowing and begging through the round of  every man's  acquaintance; which gives to monied might the means abundantly of wearying out the right; which so exhausts finances, patience, courage, hope; so overthrows the brain and breaks the heart; that there is not an honourable  man among its practionerers who would not give - who does not does not often give - the warning, 'Suffer any wrong that can be done you, rather than come here!'

Imagine. Discovering Dickens at my age! (If I had scored as high in that bloody test I would have been delighted.) What luck. Finding myself in the company of such enthusiastic Dickens readers. And let's not forget. His readers included such distinguished people as Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud. One saw revolution down the road. And the other plumbed the depths of the human psyche.

That makes the preface sound very promising. Or very reassuring. Or what?

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 05:55:23 PM »
Actually I'm rediscovering Dickens. I read Little Dorrit when I was twelve. I was captivated. It taught me how to feel for others. I'm beginning to think of Dickens as another Ancient Mariner. The reader cannot choose but listen.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 06:07:37 PM »
First Chapter even more than the Preface is like a Junoesque, Rubenesque, Runyonesque Arabesque as they dance to the bejeweled tune wreathed in opposites of mud, red tables and silk gowns. What a lark – it is his telling of it that makes you laugh outloud. If you haven't yet, suggestion, read it outloud - your tongue rolls without a sputter finalizing the romp with a crashing word ending each sentence - it is magical and hilarious.

Don’t you love this – reminds me of Congress in action today.
Quote
...mistily engaged in one of the ten thousand stages of an endless cause, tripping one another up on slippery precedents, groping knee-deep in technicalities, running their goat-hair and horsehair warded heads against walls of words and making a pretence of equity with serious faces, as players might.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 06:52:17 PM »
OH yes, all a reticule is - is one of those draw string bags most of us used when we were kids to swing over our shoulders carrying our pencil, notebook and whatever we were going to eat for lunch. However, for a lady in the nineteenth century they were often small made of silk or velvet and beaded with a beaded fringe or more simple made of black wool, lined with braided cords to pull the bag closed and used as today we use a handbag.
During the mid Victorian era this would have been a new article of clothing - not too long before women had deep pockets that they used to carry things with them.

The squeezed bonnet seems to be an expression that I cannot find specializing the bonnet although photos and prints of scenes from the book show this kind of bonnet - in the story the bonnet is black where as this one is maroon.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 08:20:59 PM »
So much good stuff here today!   - We seem to be zeroing in on the puzzling contrasts that define Charles Dickens and his writing.  Jonathan refers to that Preface -  and asks it is, "promising. Or very reassuring. Or what?"  Dickens is  writing about serious problems  -  the obsolete, slow-moving, court system, ruining the lives of so many - and philanthropists - do gooders,  like Mrs. Jellyby, neglecting her own children, while devoting her life to cultivating coffee in Africa.  What is he saying about those who try to help others.
 
Pedln asks if there is humor here - she thinks she's feeling it. Do you?  Dickens tells his readers in the Preface that what he is writing  is true.  The truth is painful, isn't it?  JoanK - do you think humor can be found in the exaggerated portrayal of one characteristic  - like Mrs. Jellyby?  You make an interesting observation - What's going on with Mr. Jellyby?

We need to watch Dickens closely - the  sub-stories going on beneath the plot...  And then when we find out what they are, we can edit the description in the heading...

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2012, 08:37:12 PM »
Jude, thanks for checking on Dickens' readership.  The fact that these monthly instalments were inexpensive, they would reach the very people who could appreciate them.  Do you think the very wealthy were also fans?

"Magical and hilarious."  No wonder his readers loved these installments, Barb.  I love the idea of the family sitting before the fire as the person who could read in the family, read his words alive.  Was there anyone like Dickens at the time - telling stories that would appeal to all ages, on some level./10/

That reticule is such a tiny bag, Barb...I was surprised...What is "the old lady" carrying in hers?  I'd imagined something a bit larger - crammed full of documents..8/10 - documents, at least.  She's really a person of interest - I don't think we've seen the end of her, do you?  Babi - you were calling her by name.  I don't remember that - but will be relieved to be calling her something besides "little old lady"  - Here's an enlarged version of the illustration in the heading - can you see the handbags the ladies are carrying?  The reticules?
Not really - but they must be the squeeze bonnets, don't you think?


Frybabe

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 09:53:37 PM »
Oh my! What a description of the mud and fog. Dickens is certainly not wanting to forget anything - Megalosaurus waddling up the hill? http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/dinosaurs-other-extinct-creatures/dino-directory/detail.dsml?Genus=Megalosaurus  Back in Dicken's time they thought it walked on all four legs.

Then there is the ait, which I discovered is a small river island. Well, we have lots of those on the Susquehanna. Next I found a picture of a model of a collier brig. http://www.lostbrig.net/latest_news/model_collier_brig.JPG I like this because of the detail. These brigs carried coal. This model, I think, is supposed to be a close match to what the brig, Elizabeth Jane, out of Nova Scotia and sunk near Yorkshire.

I haven't gone but a few paragarphs, and already I am exploring. Lincoln's Inn Hall http://www.lincolnsinn.org.uk/index.php/history-of-the-inn/historic-buildings-ca/the-old-hall

Forgive me, I can't help myself. Temple Bar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Bar,_London

I just love the association of the real fog and mud with the fog and muddiness of the Court of Chancery.

bellamarie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 10:22:40 PM »
I read A Tale of Two Cities in high school and can barely remember it, so as for Dickens' style I feel like I am being introduced to him for the first time with reading Bleak House.  I must say the on going description of the fog in the first chapter was a bit tiresome for me.  I remember reading Dickens liked to be very wordy in his writings and I could see that in the ongoing fog.....

"Fog everywhere.  Fog up the river, where it flows among green aits and meadows; fog down the river, where it rolls deified among the tiers of shipping and the waterside pollutions of great (and dirty) city.  Fog on the Essex marshes, fog on the Kentish heights.  Fog creeping into the caboose of the collier-brigs; fog lying out on the yards and hovering in the rigging of great ships; fog drooping on the gunwales of barges and small boats.  Fog in the eyes and throats of ancient Greenwich pensioners, wheezing by the firesides of their wards; fog in the stem and bowl of the afternoon pipe of the wrathful skipper; down in his close cabin; fog cruelly pinching the toes and fingers of his shivering little 'prentice boy on deck."

Needless to say he goes on and on and on about the fog.  Why do you suppose he felt the necessity to describe the fog for almost an entire chapter?  

In reading The Life and Time of Charles Dickens in the preface of my nook book, he worked as a clerk in law offices and did not think highly for law firms so it did not surprise me to see him express these feelings when he speaks of Jarndyce and Jarndyce.  He shows the law firm has dragged this suit on over generations and I especially giggled at this,  "The little defendant who was promised a new rocking-horse when Jarndyce and Jarndyce should be settled has grown up, possessed himself a real horse, and trotted away into the other world."    

Yes, I am finding humor as pedln mentions.  The names are cracking me up Mr. Chizzle, Mizzle, and Mr. Tulkinghorn.   lolol

Who is she?   "little mad old woman is always in in a squeezed bonnet who is always in court, from its sitting to its rising, and always expecting some incomprehensible judgement to be given in her favour.  Some say she really is, or was, a party to a suit, but no one knows for certain because no one cares."  

I am really liking the book and feeling attached to Esther.  When she speaks of her childhood, it is so touching for me.  More on Esther later.

There are many characters to keep up with, so thank you so much for the list.  I will print it out and use it to help me keep them straight.

Ciao for now~  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

salan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 06:18:31 AM »
Thanks for the list of characters.  I have printed it out & will make my notes on it.  I have to know the characters I am reading about; and too many characters confuse me.  Maybe that's why I always had trouble reading Tolstoy.
Sally

nancymc

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 07:13:52 AM »
When I first read Bleak House in 1948 I was not surprised by all the mention of fog, because I was well use to fog.  I would go to the cinema and when I came out all the buses would have stoppped and I would have to walk three miles home.   You could not see more than a foot or two in front, but strangely I never felt afraid, figures would loom up out of the fog and we would exchange greetings.    The one good point was that we had electric lamps which were not available in Dicken's time.  Your footsteps would take you from one lamp to the next.

I would also like to comment on the point that Johnathan made about the Court of Chancery "Suffer any wrong that can be done you rather than come here".  My husband, who was a Barrister, always said keep out of court even if you are sure you are in the right, in court there are no guarantees

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2012, 09:58:37 AM »
 Oh, I always pay attention to ROSEMARY's posts. I've enjoyed them so much. I'm expecting the same here.
  JOANP, a footnote in the Preface indicates that it was written in Aug. 1853. I'm
guessing it was written for the publication of the book, after the final monthly installment.
 The clincher for me, in the Preface, was the quote from a Chancery Judge,
who said "There had been he admitted, a trivial blemish or so in its rate of progress,
but this was exaggerated, and had been entirely owing to the 'parsimony of the public'.
Oh, my! I wonder in what manner the public was being parsimonious?  Perhaps declining
to pay more lawyers more fees to do obscure things?

 PEDLN, that side character seems to me a sketch of a type that can't be bothered to speak
distinctly; the idle, layabout aristocrat, who mumbles to show his utter indifference to all things.
 I would think publishing the story in intallments would mean they were easily available
to the general public. I don't think 'society' would have been all that pleased with
his depiction of them.

 Dickens does use exaggeration to convey his opinion of certain types. He doesn't seem
to care much for officious women. He much prefers those like Esther. As for Mr. Jellyby,
I can't help but think that if he had more backbone, his wife might have been less
dismissive of him and her role as housewife/mother.

 JONATHAN, perhaps Dickens meant our favorite characters would have a happy ending. Or,
if we are contrary types, those he approved of. ::)

 BELLAMARIE, perhaps he was setting the mood. Since he was about to introduce us to
Chancery, which goes on and on with nothing clear, chilling and discouraging. I think
you will find Dickens is very good at mood setting.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 10:56:50 AM »
Good morning, Babi!
- I seem to remember the parsimony having to do with the unwillingness to take on more judges - thus the backlog of cases...plenty of lawyers though.

Bellamarie - your comment about how the law firm has dragged this suit on over generations - reminded me  of a note I took down - "the suit before the Court now began nearly 20 years ago.  30 0r 40 counsel have appeared at one time."

Nancymc - your husband, the Barrister's comment pretty much echos what Dickens observed, doesn't it?  - "keep out of court even if you are sure you are in the right, in court there are no guarantees."  Where did you grow up with such fog that stopped busses.  I don't think I ever experienced such fog...

Frybabe - loved the links  - to the Lincoln's Inn Hall.  Reading the history, it sounds as if it was carefully restored to what it was in the 19th century. I marvel over the fact that so many of these buildings in London stand today as they were in Dickens' time.  (and long before that!)  I'll bet Rosemary has been inside of Lincoln's Inn Hall...)  The buildings in the Temple Bar link are a good example.  (I've got Yale's Whiffenenpoof song in my head now - "To the tables down at Mories, to the place where Louis dwells,  to the dear old Temple Bar we loved so well..."  if you can hear this, I'll bet you have it in your head for the rest of the day - The Whiffenpoof Song

From that link:
Quote
Bleak HouseThe most famous use of the Old Hall as a court is fictional. The opening scene of Bleak House is set here.

“London. Michaelmas Term lately over, and the Lord Chancellor sitting in Lincoln's Inn Hall. Implacable November weather……Fog everywhere. Fog up the river, where it flows among green aits and meadows; fog down the river, where it rolls defiled among the tiers of shipping, and the waterside pollutions of a great (and dirty) city……And hard by Temple Bar, in Lincoln's Inn Hall, at the very heart of the fog, sits the Lord High Chancellor in his High Court of Chancery;”

and before him is the great cause, never to be understood, of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce. Yet the last and most lamentable scene of that case was set not in the Old Hall but in the Court of Chancery in Westminster Hall.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2012, 11:45:15 AM »
Here's a great map - if you can get it to work.  If you click the link - look for the green patch to the right  and click on the map to enlarge - Lincoln Inn is there...Holburn Hill, Chancery Lane, the works.  Let us know if it works for you - if not, back to the drawing board.  If it works, we'll keep it in the heading.


rosemarykaye

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 11:54:45 AM »
I used to work in Pump Court in the Temple many years ago - the firm I worked for had offices in the basement of one of the buildings.  We were squashed in like sardines but it was a very atmospheric place to work; we sometimes saw John Mortimer staggering across the courtyard.  I couldn't find any good photos of Pump Court to post, but I did find this one about Middle Temple (one of the four Inns) - you can 'take a tour' by clicking on the buttons:

http://www.sphericalimages.com/middletemple/

I think most lawyers advise their clients to stay out of court whenever possible - it is only the very rich and the very poor (legally aided by the state) who can afford the astronomical costs involved, and as Nancy's husband says, you never can be sure that you will win, and if you lose you are stuck with paying the other side's costs as well as your own.  Many, many people settle 'at the door of the court' to avoid this - it is often purely down to brinksmanship who gives in first.

I wish you could all pay a real visit to the area around Holburn, Chancery Lane and the Inns of Court - it is all steeped in history.  I think we Londoners rather took it for granted; I would probably get more out of it going back now.

Rosemary

Frybabe

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »
Fountain Court looks so inviting to sit and read. There is only one problem with it. I could not detect any fountain.

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2012, 02:05:14 PM »
This may be off the point but somehow it seems appropriate.
At age two, mother and I went to London to visit her huge family. Dad stayed in N.Y.
I was overwhelmed by the FOG!
I didn't know what to call it or even to ask what it was.
Each morning I awoke crying , pointing to the fog filled window and screamed: I want to go home.It's STUFFY here."
This elicited such laughter that for the rest of my life if I met one of my English relatives the first thing they would say would be" It's stuffy here". and burst into laughter.
Thus the London Fog has trailed after me all these years.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2012, 06:08:28 PM »
That's funny, Jude!  Funny that your family never let you forget the fog. "Stuffy" is a good way to describe the fog - AND a good way to describe the court procedings...
... So that's where the "London Fog" raincoat logo comes from!  Never thought about it before - in connection with this thick fog.

Rosemary, from what you say, the Jarndyce family must have been quite wealthy to carry on this case for 20 years!    The lawyers are getting paid royally, but who is paying court costs?  Is this a matter of Jarndyce versus Jarndyce?  I can't imagine anyone believed the thing was ever going to be settled.

I thought Lady Dedlock was  back in London from her country place in Lincolnshire -- I thought her  place was Bleak House.  But no.  I was quite wrong.  Dickens spends much time describing this "lady", but is the Dedlock connection to the Jarndyce cause?  Is  "cause" the same thing as "case"?

 Her lawyer, her solicter, comes to her house to keep her informed of the court procedings each day...What did Mr. Tulkinghorn come to tell her?  While he  goes on about the case, LadyD happens to see handwriting that she recognizes on one of the papers he's holding, - which causes her to faint dead away.  Aren't you curious? Whose handwriting do you suppose it is?  

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2012, 09:03:36 AM »
 Ah, I can see where a judge would resent the public's unwillingness to take on more
judges. Of course, one would think it would motivate them to placate the public by being
more responsive to the time and pocketbooks of suitors.

 What a fabulous guided tour, ROSEMARY! And without having to take a step. The rooms
were gorgeous; the portraits fascinating. Thank you so much. (I am supposing Fountain
Court was named after someone, as I did not see a fountain.)
  Ah, I see FRYBABE made the same comment.

 JOANP, I believe the court costs were taken from the estate. That's why the costs had
to be cleared with the judge. It also explains why even if a judgment were one day
handed down, there might be very little left for the heirs. ROSEMARY can correct me on
that if I'm mistaken.

  Now that we are introduced to the Dedlocks, I must say I greatly enjoyed the description of
Sir Leicester.  “He is an honourable, obstinate, truthful, high-spirited, extremely prejudiced, perfectly unreasonable man.” 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2012, 09:58:27 AM »
There's the humor Pedln is seeing, Babi.  His descriptions of both men and women are not without that gentle, ironic twist...
He tells us Sir Leicester married Lady Dedlock for love.  That word seems not to appear in his description of the lady, does it?

"She has a fine face- originally of a character that would be rather called very pretty than handsome, but improved into classicality by the acquired expression of her fashionable state."