Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 204036 times)

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1080 on: May 16, 2012, 06:42:53 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Magnanimus Conduct of Mr. Guppy
(click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

XIX
 
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 Aug. 1853
 


 
 CHAPTERS

60-67
  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

May 16-20

 
 The Mausoleum at Chesney Wold
(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider

Here are some questions to start, but we'd really like to hear from you.
  What are some of your own questions and observations on these concluding chapters?
 
 

Chapter LX  Perspective

1. Was it any surprise to learn  Miss Flite was a daily visitor to Esther's sick room?  Or that she has appointed Richard executor of her will? As it turned out, is there irony in this?

2. Do you see Richard and Ada's marriage surviving the strain of this case no matter the outcome?

Chapter LXI  A Discovery

1. Can you explain the coolness between Mr. Skimpole and John Jarndyce, whom he referred to as "the Incarnation of Selfishness" in his diary?  What is Dickens implying with Skimpole's character?

2. Was Allan Woodcourt's confession to Esther expected?  What did you think of Esther's response?  Why does she consider her future path easier than his?

Chapter LXII  Another Discovery

1.  Did Allan's confession precipitate Esther's desire to return as the mistress of Bleak House as soon as possible?
 
2. Do you think John Jarndyce recognizes the importance of the paper Smallweed has found among Krook's papers?  Do you think he's suspected all along  of the existence of a will that was not in his interest?

Chapter LXIII  Steel and Iron

1. How does George Rouncewell's brother react to his request to remove his name from his mother's will?  Do you think Mrs. Rouncewell's will was of any importance?

2. Another letter, this one George will send to Esther, a letter addressed to George containing a letter from an unmarried woman.   What was the unfortunate timing of the  delivery of this letter?  What is in this letter?


Chapter LXIV  Esther's Narrative

1.  Why did Esther's guardian furnish the gift house  to look just like his own home?     Was there  a reason why this sweet little cottage is also named "Bleak House"?  Why  do you think Dickens named this book Bleak House?

2. Was Guppy's new-found magnanimity  unbelievable?  Would his new house and his "'eart-felt feelings" for Esther tempt her to consider his proposal?  Was this scene strictly for comic relief or is Dickens making another point here?


Chapter LXV  Beginning the World

1. What of the new will found among Krook's papers?  Too good to be true?  Would it have set things right, but for what followed?  

2. What did you think of the ironic ending of the Jarndyce suit?  Was it predictable?  Can you find examples of the lighter mood throughout the Court House as bundles of papers and documents are dumped outside on the pavement?

3. How did Richard and Miss Flite handle the outcome of the case?  Were they able to pick up and begin life, once free from Jarndyce?


Chapter LXVI  Down in Lincolnshire

1. Do the dull, static days at Chesney Wold suggest what life would have been like without Lady Dedlock's presence?  What makes it bearable for Sir Leicester?  For his cousin, Volumina?

2. Was it made clear why Mr. George chose to live out his life here?

Chapter LXVII The Close of Esther's Narrative

1. What was revealed of Esther's life as Mrs. Allan Woodcourt? What did you think of Dickens' concluding chapter? Was it satisfying to you?

2.  Do you think that his readers were pleased to read of the other characters in the book before closing?

 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  


marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1081 on: May 16, 2012, 06:43:04 PM »
I find Mr. Vholes disgusting. He hides behind his legal language, saying that he is monitoring Richard's affairs only because Richard has asked him to. Grrr.  Mr. Vholes has entrapped Richard with all his gibberish about moving the case forward. He knows Richard's weakness and has preyed upon it. It's because of his payments to Vholes that Richard has spent all of his money and needs Ada's money. Vholes could be seen as one of the primary causes that results in Ada marrying Richard. How ironic that Vholes is saying that the marriage is a bad business.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1082 on: May 16, 2012, 06:52:39 PM »
do you think marcie they guessed that Woodcourt would be meeting up and taking Esther home when John Jarndyce didn't  show up for their usual meeting when he took her home. Then where did Mrs. Woodcourt go - plus I just do not see a lot of emotion on Esther's part for either John Jarndyce or for Woodcourt - she realizes she is happy and feels the affects of her illness did not stop Woodcourt's continued interest but she does not sound like there is a flutter for either - when she goes in to speak with John Jarndyce it sounds more like settling and making real an understanding - they sure do not act nor does she sound like someone in love. I do not know if this is because this is a Dickens omission or if the character is just so practical there is no deep emotion.

And so no change for you in your opinion of Vholes  ;) :D

Welcome back Jude - sounds like a wonderful time seeing theatre - these modern settings for Shakespeare have become the thing haven't they - PBS has done a few - to me a good analogy is transferable so that the setting becoming more specific I never quite understood. Nothing against or for just never understood why. But then I notice some folks cannot imagine a room unless there is furniture in place and others can see beyond the furniture. Glad you will be able to add your views as we end this 2 month discussion.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1083 on: May 16, 2012, 08:41:59 PM »
Barbara, I don't think that Esther was in love with Jarndyce. She loves and respects him as her guardian. Esther is a subdued narrator. She doesn't express her feelings openly, even to herself. But I do sense an undercurrent of feeling in her for Woodcourt. I think that Dickens has her crying quite a bit to show her conflicted emotions. I do think that Jarndyce knew that Woodcourt would accompany her home when he (Jarndyce) didn't appear.

She resolves to keep her feelings for Woodcourt in check, as she has up to now. She knows she can rely on Jarndyce and resolves that she will devote herself to him. Currently Woodcourt has no one else and declares his faithfulness to her despite her engagement to Jarndyce. I think that is what motivates her to say that her future path will be easier than Woodcourt's.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1084 on: May 16, 2012, 10:00:20 PM »
Quote
"It all feels like Dickens is hurrying up and tying up the package so it can be delivered complete."


I'm thinking along those lines too, Barb.  This last installment feels a bit like an epilogue..without the power of the previous chapters.-  Esther, after some time in bed,  seems to have bounced back from that nightmarish night, as if it never happened.   Even Woodcourt's  confession of love doesn't really portray a young couple in love - even though they say it's so.  Esther even convinces herself that her life without Allan will be easier than his without her.

If we're to believe him, Mr. Vholes' real motivation is to provide for his father and his three daughters.  He needs to make the most  off of his clients, while preserving his reputation.  He works hard,  puts in long hours.   
 
Somehow I don't see him as despicable as Mr. Skimpole.  I don't see him  suffering from any real mental challenges, as John Jarndyce believes.  I see him as calculating - as he takes advantage of everyone he can -  Why on earth did he turn against his most generous patron, wrtiing in his diary that he is the "Incarnation of  Selfishness"?

Poor John Jarndyce.  From the start I felt he was too good to be true.  I expected to learn more about his background - and why he is so generous with his money -  The one thing that would have made him happy would have been  marriage to Esher.  But as you say Marcie, she never did love him in a husband/wife way.  Has anyone ever loved him like that?  Don't you wish Dickens had spent more time on his character?  

Welcome "home" Jude - so glad you will be with us for this last installment!  

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1085 on: May 17, 2012, 08:58:33 AM »
 BARB, I can't help but feel that Esther's early upbringing has much to do with her
way of keeping her emotions under control. She was told that she was a shame and disgrace
and deserved punishment. John Jarndyce's kindness and frequent praise of her has earned
her deep loyalty. She had made a commitment to him when she believed her feelings for
Allen Woodcourt could come to nothing. She is now resolved to honor that commitment, but
it makes her happy to know that Allen did care.

  I'm not sure why we expected a more lasting reaction from Esther to Lady Dedlock's
death. It meant a great deal to her to know who her mother was, but she barely knew the
woman. They had met, what?..three times? There was a very emotional explanation and
mutual comforting. A further burden was added to Esther's load...the fear of the truth
coming out and harming her mother. I'm sure Esther was sad and grieved, but not as she
would be for someone she knew well and loved dearly.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1086 on: May 17, 2012, 10:53:08 AM »
Good points Babi - I know after all that has happened and looking in so to speak as a reader I know I looked for more drama - and I agree but thought there would be just a bit more of a flutter from Esther over one or the other of the two men in her life - ah so...but dead on for the death of Lady Deadlock - in fact I think her taking to her bed was described as in response to the night in the storm.

Bucket sure knows how to handle Smallweed when they visit John Jarndyce - not yet finished to learn the purpose of their meeting but I should get to that today...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1087 on: May 17, 2012, 03:02:53 PM »
looking for...'a bit more of a flutter from Esther over one or the other of the two men in her life'

I can see the point you're making, Barb, but that would seem to be unlikely with the character that Dickens has given poor Esther, the victim of being born illegitimate and unwanted. Her life has been a fierce effort to feel needed and loved, with self-examination taking precedence over everything else. It's difficult enough to feel lovable under normal circumstances for everyone.

But...only TWO men in her life? Have you forgotten about Guppy? He's the only one who has truly loved her from cover to cover. In the true, romantic sense. I can't forgive Dickens for bringing Guppy in for a final scene, just to make a fool of himself. Unless Dickens cannot forget his own first love and his rejection.

'Why on earth did he (Skimpole) turn against his most generous patron?'

Good question, Joan. On the face of it, it seems that Dickens is trying to make a Judas Iscariot of honest Harold Skimpole. Betrayal for a few shekels?

I can't believe the many forms that victimization takes on in Dickens narrative. I still feel sorriest of all for Tulkinghorn, the victim of a woman's hate.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1088 on: May 17, 2012, 08:54:31 PM »
Jonathan - did you notice that Dickens did not mention Tulkinghorn even once in this last Installment?  What does that say about his importance in the story?  Before his murder, I'd have said that he was a central character in this criticism of the legal system of the time.   I really wish we had learned more about what made Tulkinghorn the man he was. 

Maybe the  purpose of the last installment was simply to show how life went on "après Tulkinghorn" and après Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce...- and he felt compelled to  focus on each character for his readers.

I agree with you, he should have left poor Guppy to nurse his broken 'eart in private.

Did I understand correctly, Barbara?  - Smallweed has become a member of Parliament for a few shekels?
  - Or did I misread that?

Do you think Richard had to die?  Couldn't he have survived the outcome of the case and started the world anew with Ada and his child? 

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1089 on: May 17, 2012, 09:07:34 PM »
Dickens may make fun of Guppy--his accent, his overlong hair, and those dreadful striped trousers in the illustrations--but Guppy still comes out of it with some dignity.  He has been very clever in his deductions of Esther's origins.  He has been honorable in keeping Lady D informed of things, even though she treats him scornfully.  He has bettered himself by his own efforts--working hard to get his certification and set up a practice for himself.  And he takes his final rejection with dignity, even if his mother does not.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1090 on: May 17, 2012, 09:12:06 PM »
What did you think of Esther's reaction to his proposal, Pat?

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1091 on: May 17, 2012, 09:43:13 PM »
I was thinking Guppy was a self pompous man who felt for himself first and in proposing to Ester he was mainly concerned for appearances and the fact that
she would better his chances for moving up the ladder so to speak especially with her being a ward of J.

I tried to like Guppy from the first but feel with the name he was given by Dickens we are to think of him as swimming in a world too big for him; and comedy is brought into play in his continually trying to mesh with those around him by using a high  brow language that surely must register poorly with those around him!!!!!!
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
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Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
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Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1092 on: May 18, 2012, 08:28:36 AM »
 Guppy does make a third 'romantic' interest, doesn't he?  I can't see him as one who
truly loved her, tho'.  He definitely thought she was pretty, and loved to romanticize
himself pining over her, but he dropped her quick enough after her illness left her
scarred. Then, when her prospects improved, he (and his horrible mama) were quick to
do her the honor of proposing. 
 As for Tulkinghorn, giving so many people cause to hate him, it's not really surprising
to me that he was murdered. Yet I agree with you, that the murderess had the least cause
to do so.
  PAT, thanks for reminding us of Guppy's good points. He is capable of even better
things, in time, I believe.

 It's sad about Richard. But he wore himself out in his struggle, physically and emotionally.
He made many mistakes, as he knew at the end. IMO, he simply had not the powers of endurance
that might have enabled him to recover.

 As for the ending of the Jarndyce case, you could see it coming. The lawyers on all
sides were making a lifelong income out of this case, and no doubt others as well. It
was only a matter of time before the 'estate' coffers were empty.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1093 on: May 18, 2012, 10:01:05 AM »
Deb, I agree, Dickens seemed to make Guppy an object of dersion from the start - his very name.  I did feel sorry for him at the start - he appeared to have feelings for Esther - but he quickly lost my sympathy when he had a change of 'art after seeing her altered face.  Does anyone really believe he fell back in love with Esther at the end?  I felt Dickens was continuing to make fun of Guppy, right up to the end.
 
Yes, Babi - we saw what was going to happen with the contested Jarndyce fortune - from the very beginning.  I was amused at the merriment in the courthouse as the bags and boxes of Jarndyce paperwork was dumped on the pavement outside the courthouse.  Just about everyone was amused - except those whose hopes of becoming rich were dashed...Richard in particular.  How did Miss Flite take it?  Am remembering that she had made Richard executor of her will.  Was Miss Flite's case interwoven with the Jarndyce case - or is hers yet to be decided? 


JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1094 on: May 18, 2012, 10:02:24 AM »
Do you find it is the lesser characters who keep the drama flowing?  We never do get any closer to those we considered the "leads" at the start - Lady Dedlock, Tulkinghorn, or even John Jarndyce for that matter.  We know more about Esther, because Dickens has given her a chance to be heard  through her narratives.

George Rouncewell and his desire to be "scratched" from his mother's will -  none of this was explained.  Good that the wealthier brother persuaded him not to to that, as George lived out the rest of his life with his mother.   

Perhaps the reason to include George in this final Installment was to send Esther that letter  -   It was addressed to an "unmarried" woman which I gather was Lady Dedlock. 
We don't know anything more than that.  What do you imagine was in the letter to Lady Dedlock from Esther's father?

 It must have meant something to Esther, but as has been pointed out, though these were her parents, she never knew them and so Esther is able to proceed with the life she has made for herself without being too affected by what she learned about them.  

I don't know about you - but if these were my parents, I think I'd have been far more affected that Esther appears to have been.

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1095 on: May 18, 2012, 06:23:10 PM »
Joan P
You feel you would have been more affected if those were your parents than Esther seems to be.
However you may be thinking of parentts with whom you grew up , knew intimately and cared for and cared for you.
Esthers parents are Theoretical parents over whom she has no say or real feeling.
Her life has been more as a adopted child or a foster child. Just knowing the names and status of her parents has made a great difference in her life.
Esther is a person of great discipline and the ability to follow what is expected of her.  To fall into a world where real love and affection exist has been a wonderful change for her.
She, like so many of Dickens Heros and Heroines, comes from nothing in the way of live to a surfeit of love from many people. In the end she is a typical Dickens main character. Almost without a flaw, only her physical beauty slightly marred,

Along the way of this transformation she, and we, have met a myriad of fascinating characters, both good and bad  (Some very, very bad-close to evil).
But the good people have won out and we can lay the book to rest with a warm feeling in our hearts.  Dickens has once again taken us on a ride full of wonders and thrills and tears and terror and landed us onto a field of happiness.

P.S. Of all the horrible characters I still despise Skimpole the most.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1096 on: May 18, 2012, 10:41:58 PM »
Quote
"Esther, like so many of Dickens Heros and Heroines, comes from nothing in the way of live to a surfeit of love from many people. In the end she is a typical Dickens main character."

Jude, that's a really good point.  Dickens had proposed so many interesting plot lines...perhaps too many to satisfactorily resolved all of them.  I would have liked to learn more about how Sir Leicester and Esther's mother got together.  And John Jarndyce, why he had never married, why he made Esther his housekeeper when she first arrived  At Bleak House.
I'm realizing as I type this that this is not my story to tell.  It is Dickens' - and we just have to be content with what he wants to tell us.  Do you suppose he purposely omits questions he knows we are wondering about  and leaves them to our imagination?

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1097 on: May 19, 2012, 12:11:13 AM »
Joan P
Yes , I do believe that Dickens leaves certain things to our imagination.
 He doesn't flesh out every character or solve every problem. Yet he answers our main concerns about the Hero or Heroine.
I somehow think if he did flesh out what happened to each of the characters we would start getting bored.  The book already runs over 800 pages.

If I look back again and think what was wonderful about the book it is the beautiful language.  Very often it is not what Dickens writes but how he writes it. The gorgeous descriptions and the atmosphere that he creates are genius.

He makes readers empathise and love who he wants them to love and hate those he wants us to hate.

Again the only word to describe such as he, is genius. We have acquired  a world that didn't exist for us before reading this book.  If only every author could do such as Dickens has done for us.




BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1098 on: May 19, 2012, 12:44:40 AM »
Haven't just had to sit back with my head on the back of the sofa after completing a book in a long long time - what a storyteller - it was as if I was in that world - and yes Jude, the beautiful language and as you also say, gorgeous descriptions -

I'm with you JoanP wishing there was more explaining how Sir Leicester and Esther's mother got together.  And John Jarndyce, why he had never married, why he made Esther his housekeeper when she first arrived  At Bleak House. Add to that from where did his money come?

There is a lot of folks living with each other at the drop of a hat - and it was nice to learn what happened to Peppy - I think it was you Jude who earlier said Dickens ties up all the loose ends by explaining all his characters. George was rounded out nicely and poor Guppy - he was reaching above himself for Esther - I think he really did care and was showing the only way he knew which was to assure her physical security and comfort. But his mother was probably the bane of his existence his whole life. Old Weever didn't do him any favors did he. Guppy was good to him but he did not reciprocate.

Still cannot fathom why John Jarndyce names his house Bleak House - is there another definition we missed?

Oh yes, and with a mouth full of blood I guess Richard had consumption - living as they did without the benefit of fresh, healthy, food and air, under stress as he was sure adds up - the others, even the lawyers all have a house outside the city but Richard like Smallweed and a few others were part of the oldest part of London with its damp and poverty.

I wonder if the ghost's footsteps died with Lady Deadlock? Well the atmosphere of this story will stay with me for awhile - one of his best - I must say that I often envisioned the scenery with a later time in London filled with street atmosphere - the movie My Fair Lady - more so than the various re-creations of Dickens stories in a movie.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1099 on: May 19, 2012, 08:55:01 AM »
 JOANP, I had the strong impression that George, having 'run off' to the army, felt he
did not deserve a share in whatever his Mother had accumulated. He felt his family had
every right to be angry with him. His brother disabused him of that notion. I loved this
chapter simply for the healing that took place for the Rouncewells.

 What was in the latter to Lady Dedlock from Esther's father? I can only suppose what
one would expect from a lover and fiance.  The assurance of his love for her and his
happiness at knowing they would be together always. As young people, don't we always
believe things are going to turn out as we plan?  I felt that Esther was comforted by
that knowledge.

 I'm with you, JUDE. If Skimpole had a redeeming quality, I never saw it.  I also couldn't
agree more about Dickens' genius.  The descriptions and atmosphere, definitely.  The sly
humor.  The ability to define a character so vividly.  I am really hate to see this discussion
coming to an end; it has been so rich, stimulating and worthwhile.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1100 on: May 19, 2012, 01:59:18 PM »
The contrast between the Rouncewell brothers is interesting.  George is rackety and a bit disreputable, but honest, good-hearted, loyal, strong but gentle.  He has come back to Chesney Wold and taken an almost feudal role, taking care of Sir Leicester and living with his mother, the housekeeper.

His brother has rejected the role of servant, made a fortune, and is busily making a place for himself as a man of consequence and influence, and educating his children for this new place in life.

I can't help feeling that Dickens approves more of George than his brother.  George is described with affection, and although Dickens isn't unsympathetic to the ironmaster, he describes the bleak, black, sooty iron country with dislike, and Rosa is being systematically groomed to fit her to be Watt's wife almost as though she were a prize racehorse.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1101 on: May 19, 2012, 03:13:18 PM »
I finally finished the book last night, so I’m bringing up the rear on comments.

I thought it was a well balanced ending to the book --- complete with sadness and hapiness.  Even Mr. Jarndyce preparing the cottage for Esther and Allan was believable to me, the way Dickens wrote it.

The book is filled with unforgettable characters, which is one of the things that will stay with me, but I do wish we had learned a bit more about Mr. Jarndyce.

Symbolically, Richard had to die.  Not only had the lawsuit used up all its potential benefits in its monetary costs, but Richard’s death reminds the readers of the human costs of the convoluted legal system.

I felt a bit sorry for Guppy, with the harsh rejection of his proposal by Mr. Jarndyce.  However, it really took some nerve for Guppy to propose again after officially withdrawing his proposal after seeing Esther’s scarring.  No wonder Mr. Jarndyce threw him out!

The style of writing in this last installment was more straight forward and to the point than the other installments.  There was no more drama to create, just a summing up and ending of the story.  In a way, I felt that Dickens stretched the other parts of the story to fit the twenty installment plan.  We certainly knew enough detail from prior installments to understand what was being told literally and figuratively in this wrap up installment.

What a book!  What a discussion!

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1102 on: May 19, 2012, 03:58:23 PM »
I love everyone's comments. You each have added so much to my reading of this book. I'm so glad that I read it while having the opportunity to hear your thoughts and questions. I

I too think that Dickens was a genius in creating characters to which we can emotionally react.  It will be fun to read Great Expectations together in July. I hope that everyone here will be in that discussion.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1103 on: May 19, 2012, 06:41:25 PM »
Oh yes, Marcie - I hope that all of the Bleak House gang will join us here again for the discussion of Great Expectations in July.  I think we will be more aware of the issues  close to Dickens' heart.  We won't meet as many characters, but can expect the same glorious writing and character depiction.

Before we end this discussion, I'd really like to hear your thoughts about the title Dickens finally settled on for this novel.  Was there  a reason why Jarndyce named the little cottage he prepared for Esther and Allan W. "Bleak House"?  Now there are two houses with the name Bleak House.

The Norton Critical Edition includes Dickens' notes for the title of Bleak House.  These notes, in his own hand on the usual blue sheets of paper, can be viewed today in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London.
From the start, it seems he had planned to name the novel Tom-All-Alone's, at times, The Ruined House, Bleak House Academy - and finally Bleak House won the honor.

I've been wondering for some time now about the importance of this house in the novel - so important that it would be chosen as the book's title.
    

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1104 on: May 19, 2012, 06:51:53 PM »
yes I must agree what a wonderful read & I know I would not
have finished the book except having a group to propel me thru
the unfamiliar type of language used --and enlightened by the
discussions of what I suppose was just routine familiar circumstances
during the times Dicken's lived

wasn't sure how Dickens was going to transfer the engagement
of Esther from her guardian to the doctor; feel like we missed something
due to not knowing the feelings of her guardian...he has his room to vent but seems to flow with the tide when I would have thought there
might be more sadness of his loss of Esther and her future role in his life
as his wife (his character was just too self-sacrificing to believe for me

was wondering why Esther after one short disclosing moment where she finds
her mother would not have much more sadness from learning of her death...
but after reading the comments and remembering her childhood experience
being remote from what one hopes for children being brought up, can see
(being that she never knew her mother but for one moment) her able to distance
herself from the people who conceived her....a sad fairy tale

am glad to have the opportunity knowing 'Great Expectations' will be the group's
read in July, to read another of Dicken's books ...looking forward to that
...though my regular reading has taken a back burner to this read so have June to catch up on some of that

I found I got caught up emotionally in the last 4-5 chapters ....somehow that never happened earlier; so will be interested in the second read of a Dicken's book

Deb

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And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1105 on: May 19, 2012, 10:02:34 PM »
JoanP, I couldn't figure out why Dickens titled the book, Bleak House, so I searched the web for possible explanations. I found the following article which describes the possible many layers of the title and how it fits the England that Dickens is describing and criticizing and how it also points to a solution for the social ills of the day.

http://carmel.wheaton.edu/sites/default/files/Nineteenth-CF.pdf

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1106 on: May 19, 2012, 10:10:25 PM »
OK Marcie you posted as I was writing and the article is a gem - as the article says the book represents every level of cheerlessness that can be imagined.

I think I will add the information I also found
about thinking Bleak as an adjective and when Iooked up the definition there is a noun version

Quote
a small silvery shoaling fish of the minnow family, found in Eurasian rivers.
        Genera Alburnus and Chalcalburnus, family Cyprinidae: several species, in particular A. alburnus

further information about the fish written for fishermen

Quote
The small fry of European waters, gudgeon, bleak, minnow, loach, stickleback and bullhead, are principally of value as bait for other fish, though the first-named species gives pretty sport on fine tackle and makes a succulent dish. Small red worms are the best bait for gudgeon and minnows, a maggot or small fly for bleak, and the rest are most easily caught in a small-meshed net. The loach is used principally in Ireland as a trout bait, and the other two are of small account as hook-baits, though sticklebacks are a valuable form of food for trout in lakes and pools.

I wonder if Bleak House is a noun rather than an adjective to house - I can see all sorts of analagies to John Jarndyce and in fact the house as to characters that would have been bait - maggots, small fly, using a small-meshed net - that would be a satisfying way to describe Skimpole - a maggot. I can even see John Jarndyce as bait for other larger fish - hmm you have to wonder - other than this I cannot find anything.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1107 on: May 19, 2012, 10:17:21 PM »
This is interesting...
Quote
Just before writing Bleak House in 1852, Charles Dickens took a break from being a novelist. He was in the middle of his career, had already written some extremely popular books (including Oliver Twist and A Christmas Carol), and was already a super-famous guy (and well on his way to being the most famous person in the world!). Still, he took a couple of years off. Not to relax or anything, but to work on some other stuff: finding funding for cleaning up London slums, being a public health and anti-pollution activist, thinking about getting into Parliament, and reading about the ridiculousness of the Court of Chancery. When he did finally get back to writing novels, he put out a series of very long, very complex works. Each has zillions of characters living at every level of society. Each focuses on a specific institution or bureaucracy, which is usually strongly criticized and mercilessly mocked. And each is a masterpiece.

Bleak House was the first of these later novels (the others are Little Dorrit, Our Mutual Friend, and Great Expectations)...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1108 on: May 20, 2012, 08:52:44 AM »
Thank you for finding the paper on the meaning of Bleak House, Marcie.

Esther is the central character of the book.  At the beginning of the book, we see her arriving at Bleak House to start her new life as a ward of Mr. Jarndyce.  At the end of the book, we see her settling in at her new cottage, also called Bleak House.  Esther has come full circle, starting at a Bleak House and re-starting at a Bleak House.  I thought the title was a way to tie together the book and the circle of life, specifically Esther’s life.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1109 on: May 20, 2012, 09:47:15 AM »
 Good point, PATH. I think providing Rosa with the opportunity of a good education was
great, but I can see a problem with the idea that she is to be made a 'fit' wife for
Watt. Rosa loves him, though, and she may see the whole thing as a wonderful passage
into a better life.

 The cottage seemed a bit much, LAURA, but I think you're right that Dickens made it
believable. The little house was also a blessing to Jarndyce, as it became the place
where it had a loving 'family'.

 JOANP, there's no way, really, to know why Dickens chose the title of "Bleak House".
But I like to think, since it refers to the unhappy ending of old Tom Jarndyce, that
he wanted the cottage to represent the restoration of happiness. It does seem a fitting
end to the book.

 As a small note of farewell, a final walk in the moonlight.
 “Light mists arise, and the dew falls, and all the sweet scents in the garden are heavy
 in the air. Now, the woods settle into great masses as if they were each one profound
 tree.  And now the moon rises, to separate them, and to glimmer here and there in
 horizontal line behind their stems, and to make the avenue a pavement of light among
 high cathedral arches fantastically broken."


  It's been lovely.
   
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1110 on: May 20, 2012, 11:51:48 AM »
I feel terribly frustrated at the outcome of Jarndyce and Jarndyce.  If Dickens wanted to make the point that lawyers are not looking out for the interests of their clients, he couldn't have done it better.  Any lawyer involved in the case could have seen that coming years ahead--court costs must have been reckoned up at intervals--and warned his client that there would be no point in continuing.  But instead, they kept on getting their fees (which would be paid by the clients, not out of the estate) as long as they could, baankrupting both the clients and the estate.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1111 on: May 20, 2012, 02:11:52 PM »
One loose end--When Esther met her mother at Chesney Wold, Lady D gave her a letter.  Esther retells part of the letter, and says the rest is for later in her story.  I don't remember ever getting the rest of the letter.  Did we?

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1112 on: May 20, 2012, 04:50:50 PM »
I guess this is the last day.  What an amazing discussion!  I could never have believed we could get so much out of the book, and it took all of us to do it, plus some very hard work on the part of our fearless leaders.  Thank you, JoanP, marcie, Babi, and JoanK, plus everyone whose great ideas added so much.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1113 on: May 20, 2012, 04:52:09 PM »
so often we read and want a follow up book about what happened to the characters but for this book we need an apres - that whole triangle between the captain, Lady D and sir Deadlock needs unraveling and the earlier life of John Jarndyce - I do not think any of these characters are in any of the other books written by Dickens - we are just left hanging - ah so...

Seems to me isn't that the very issue that is addressed soon after this book is published by the court system - the fleecing of the principles in a suite - earlier someone found and shared that there was an ordinance or laws that changed the system.

A law suite today can still eat up valuable time and money - do not ever sue - take the hit and go on especially if the other party is represented by an insurance company - sometimes you cannot avoid it but I will never sue anyone - their discovery goes back to your childhood - for me that meant signing that they could get my report cards from the schools I attended - you are tied up with the nonsense for over a year that they hope will wear you down - and that is within the past 10 years not in England but here in the USA. Madness... the time I have left is more valuable than that and when we are younger we need to think on how we want to live our life. I guess I would not be a good Richard - do not think I could be a good Ada and stand beside a Richard -

Of all of them Caddy seems to have come out on top - with all her bellyaching about her mother she sure learned a great deal from her that she has parlayed into a successful business and the part of her mother's life that was also annoying she was conscious that she could do better and better she did...

Yes Pat it was an amazing discussion - everyone really got into it and the discussion leaders were fantastic - thanks for a memorable couple of months - really memorable...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1114 on: May 20, 2012, 08:50:54 PM »
It's hard to let go, isn't it? An overwhelming piece of fiction. Madness, Barb? Certainly. But also a tease, with all the ghosts around, as you keep reminding us. And perhaps a fish story if your research has any validity. Dickens caught a tiny bleak on his line, wondered what to do with it, and decided on a story. What a whopper.

Bleak runs through the book. Who handles it best? John Jarndyce? Or Skimpole? I'm determined to find a saving grace in Skimpole. He looked for the beautiful in life. A born artist. And that was the cross he had to bear. He did try to make life a joy for others. Did, in fact, make a frontal assault on 'bleak'.

Still to be determined: 'the issues close to Dickens's heart'. Was it the court costs? Or the human costs? He certainly left the issue of justice unresolved. Mr Tulkinghorn's death is a red herring. But that sounds too much like where we came in....

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1115 on: May 20, 2012, 09:20:28 PM »
Quote
It's hard to let go, isn't it? An overwhelming piece of fiction.
Oh Jonathan, yes it is.  No matter how many mysteries we unravelled, more occur.  I've got to say, your efforts to ennoble Skimpole are admirable.  But can you explain why he would denounce John Jarndyce as the most selfish man ever to live - after all he has done for him?  Even Esther, who had always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt changed her mind about him at that.

"Still to be determined: 'the issues close to Dickens's heart'."   Maybe there were multiple issues...

*****************************************************************

Quote
One loose end--When Esther met her mother at Chesney Wold, Lady D gave her a letter.  Esther retells part of the letter, and says the rest is for later in her story.  I don't remember ever getting the rest of the letter.  Did we?  PatH

So much of the story was revealed in letters, wasn't it?  I've been wondering all along when Esther learned who her father was, PatH.  Maybe you've just answered the question...  That might have been included in the letter Lady Dedlock handed her that day they spoke at Chesney Wold.

There was also another letter  where that information might have been given to Esther, but I feel that she must have known  this before she received the letter George Rouncewell mailed to her.  Did you understand that this letter was initially sent to Lady Dedlock - by Esther's father?  We don't know what was in that letter, do we?  I understood that Esther's father died at sea, wasn't that the story?  But we know that the Captain was Nemo...and we know that Lady Dedlock knew that he was alive long after Esther's birth - she even knew where he was buried.

As you say, Barb, I think we have to add this to our list of questions.  Why didn't Lady Dedlock marry Esther's father?  He didn't die at sea, which would have explained things...


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1116 on: May 20, 2012, 09:32:30 PM »
without re-visiting the chapters that said this or that as I remember she only learned of his being alive from Guppy so that she would have been married to Sir Leicester when she was made aware of his life - and in fact seems to me she only learned he was alive after he was dead and then paid Jo to lead her to the cemetery.  This lady's heart could not win for loosing in this story. We never do learn her feelings for Sir Leicester only that he loved her - as large and all encompassing the story so much is left hanging... only goes to show what believable characters Dickens created that we took to our hearts and wanted to know more and more about each of them.

I guess when you think on it Skimpole provided John Jarndyce with a house-full of music and yes, I think Jonathan reminds us he was an artist as well.  ;) with a personality along the lines of Frank Lloyd Write - selfish with a capitol S.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1117 on: May 20, 2012, 09:48:03 PM »
Barbara,  that's true, we have to remember that Mr. Skimpole brought music and levity to Bleak House.  No small contribution when you think of it.
We'll have to keep in find what you found when we get to Great Exectations.  In these later books, he portrays "many characters at every level of society each focusing on a specific institution of the bureacracy."  When you are this ambitious, focusing on such a broad spectrum, it is difficult to provide insight into the lives and  hearts  of every single character... :D  I'll still come away from the story wondering why the Captain didn't come to Honoria when he reached dry land.

Wow, Marcie!  That was a really helpful link on the choice of Bleak House as title.  I've got to tell you this - every time I looked at the photograph of the house which was said to have inspired Dickens' Bleak House, I've been reluctant to consider that house as John Jarndyce's home - his "Bleak House."   Doesn't it look more like you picture Chesney Wold?  I felt the same way about the picture house in the frontispiece in this book.

I found it very interesting the idea that the title - "Bleak House"  refers "every gloomy house in the book, including Chesney Wold, described as the "crumbling fortress of the aristocracy.  The article goes even further - the title includes the whole society of Elizabethan England - the greatest of his Bleak Houses - its foundation in the mud of the past, the door to change rusted on its hinges."


JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1118 on: May 20, 2012, 10:08:27 PM »
Quote
"I feel terribly frustrated at the outcome of Jarndyce and Jarndyce.  If Dickens wanted to make the point that lawyers are not looking out for the interests of their clients, he couldn't have done it better"

PatH, I think you hit on it just right.  As has been said, Dickens approached  his later books with characters at every level of society, each focusing on a specific institution of bureacracy...and as you put it,  his focus here, among other institutions was on the outdated justice system that made it possible for lawyers to bilk their clients of their very lives.


marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1119 on: May 20, 2012, 10:27:10 PM »
JoanP, you ask "I'll still come away from the story wondering why the Captain didn't come to Honoria when he reached dry land."

I'm assuming that by the time he reached England, Honoria was already married to Sir L. She thought that her lover was lost at sea. She had birthed his child, which she was told had died.

We don't know when Honoria and Sir L met, but apparently Sir L fell in love with her and wanted to marry her. Since she lost her passion for life in what she thought was the deaths of her first love and her child, she put her energies into being at the pinnacle of society and bringing reflected social prestige to Sir L... a life that bored her.

Captain Howden wouldn't have intruded in her married life. He may have thought she never really loved him. He went downhill, likely from sorrow and despair at losing Honoria.