Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online (Read 204090 times)

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #280 on:** March 05, 2012, 10:59:33 PM »

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Bleak House
by Charles Dickens

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.

The Dancing School
(click to enlarge)

INSTALMENT

V
VI

DATE of PUBLICATION

July 1852
Aug 1852

CHAPTERS

14-16
17-19

DISCUSSION DATES

Mar.6-10
Mar.11-15

Consecrated Ground
(click to enlarge)

Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter XIV Deportment

1. Before Richard leaves to study medicine, he mentions that he isn't trusting in the Jarndyce suit but "if" it should be resolved, he has no objection to being rich. How do Ada and Esther react?

2. In this chapter Dickens takes the opportunity again to satirize show over substance. How is Turveydrop senior described?

3. In what ways are the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince Turveydrop similar?

4. How has Caddy changed since Esther last saw her? What is her relationship with Miss Flite?

5. What do you make of the names Miss Flite has given her birds?

6. What impressions do you have of the "medical gentleman" Woodcourt?

7. What other incidents or descriptions seem important in this chapter?

Chapter XV Bell Yard

1. How are the "philanthropists" who petition Mr. Jarndyce for money described?

2. Coavinses (Neckett) has died leaving three young children in the Bell Yard. What is their fate? How are they treated by various people?

3. How does Dickens use Gridley to strengthen his criticism of Chancery?

Chapter XVI Tom-All-Alone's

1. Lady Dedlock, disguised as a servant, goes to London to find Jo, the crossing sweeper who lives in a slum called Tom-all-Alone's. What places does she ask Jo to take her? What seems to be her reaction? What is her concern about the graveyard?

2. What details of poverty does Dickens provide in the description of Jo's tour of the city?

3. What events in this chapter serve to increase the suspense in the novel?

Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups; Map of London 1851 (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES ; Interactive Map of London

Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.

DLs: JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi, JoanK

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #281 on:** March 05, 2012, 11:03:19 PM »

mercie I removed my post so you can insert the heading - didn't realize my post would be the top of the page - - here is what I wrote

Ok marcie chapter 14 it is - after having to take a few days I had to add my two cents about chapters XI to XIII including a couple of questions of things I just could not figure out so if anyone can tell me that would be great and now onward yes, to chapter IVX - don't you love writing Roman numerals - reminds me of 5th grade...

and thanks for helping me understand a bit of my confusion - yes, that makes sense - fast - gone - up in smoke.

marcie · « **Reply #282 on:** March 05, 2012, 11:07:32 PM »

Thanks, Barbara. We can still follow up on previous chapters as we move into this next installment.

marcie · « **Reply #283 on:** March 05, 2012, 11:10:38 PM »

Chapter 14 starts with Richard leaving to study medicine. Before he goes he mentions that he isn't trusting in the Jarndyce suit but "if" it should be resolved, he has no objection to being rich. How do Ada and Esther react? At this point, are you worried about Richard?

JudeS · « **Reply #284 on:** March 05, 2012, 11:55:02 PM »

I read chapt 14 and want to comment today since tomorrow I have some heavy duty dental work and will be too sedated to write.
In this chapter we meet again one of my favorite characters: Caddy Jellyby. She could fit into the modern world of rebellious teens so well.
Probably Dickens patterned her after one of his own daughters, Kate, who was 13 at the time he was writing the book. Kate was the most outspoken of his ten children and was known in the family as "Lucifer Box".Kate was the third of his ten children.

Caddy also reveals that her father,Mr J.,confides in her and shares all his worries with her since his wife won't pay attention to him and is using all their money for "the African Children". Thus Caddy is the one holding the family together but it is quite a strain for a young teen to have to do it all.

Caddies boyfriend, Prince Turveydrop, is another tale of woe. Yet he too faces adversity with energy and willingness to help. Both Caddy and Prince are , for me, such likeable people, that I hope they do stay together.

marcie · « **Reply #285 on:** March 06, 2012, 01:15:36 AM »

JudeS, Good luck on your dental work! Thanks for the interesting comparison of Caddy with Kate Dickens. I had not thought about that.

I too think that Caddy and Prince are likeable and have faced the similar lack of parenting and parental pressures to work for the mother (in Caddy's case) and father (in Prince's case), with courage. For me, they are similar in many ways but Caddy resents her mother, whereas Prince seems to regard his father's unreasonable demands as what he is "due."

Anyone else see similarities, or differences, between the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince Turveydrop? How is Turveydrop senior described?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #286 on:** March 06, 2012, 02:23:06 AM »

What struck me about chapter IVX is yet, another outstanding remarkable characters that fill the pages with a stage presence that you can almost see while reading about the dance studio and the impressive, worthy of kings, deportment of Mr. Turveydrop - these names - but can you imagine waiting for a month and the new excerpt arrives - everyone is round the table or in the parlor anxious to hear what happens next and Dickens gives the reader a chance to elaborate with yet another colorful excessive character -

Notice how the chapter is set up to the familiar behavior of most of his readers as if they were party to gossiping at the General Store or in town, over the fence, going on about the behavior and manner of a Mr. Turveydrop and his son Prince. Delicious. Calling his readers and listeners in bonding them to the story.

Toward the end of the chapter I do not know if Caddy sees what her mother did teach her is a benefit to Caddy and she does say how her learned strength with pen and ink allows her to do the writing where as, Prince can do what it takes to assure an income with his parent-learned manner toward his students.

Jude great info about Dickens having a daughter the age of Caddy - I bet there was bits and pieces of Kate he used to fill out his Caddy. Even both their names is a version of Catherine.

And so we have a name to go with the mysterious dark gentleman - we still do not know Who he is or Why Mr. Woodcourt has attached himself to John Jarndyce. And another familiar bit as John Jarndyce expresses his judgement about people and circumstances he continues to refer to the wind and the direction from where it blows.

Babi · « **Reply #287 on:** March 06, 2012, 08:58:06 AM »

  The personalities of Esther and Lady Dedlock do seem very different, JONATHAN. But
I don't feel I really know Lady Dedlock yet. She is a strong woman, like Esther, but
living such a pointless life she is always bored and restless. She really needs some
purpose in her life.

JOANP, your quote led me to think the relationship between Tulkinghorn and Lady
Dedlock was more adversarial. I think Marcie is correct. This is a man of secrets,
and he thinks he has found a new one. He is on the track, and the question is, what
will he do with whatever he learns.

  BARB, I'm making a guess here, but I supposed the pieman's brandy-balls were very
popular, and sold off 'like smoke'. (I see Marcie came to the same conclusion.) And
who knows...'evidenfly' may just be evidently, as you would hear it from one with a
stuffy nose.
  I was fascinated with Mr. and Mrs. Badger. She takes all her importance from the
rank and position of her husbands, and Mr. Badger is happy to be part of the proud
line. I've never heard of anything like it before.

Oh, dear, JUDE. If Kate was the third child, then there were seven other children
all under the age of 13. How did he get anything done? And his poor wife! How did
she manage? I hope she had plenty of servants.

MARCIE, I do see that Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Turveydrop are wholly immersed in their own
personal obsessions. The rest of the world is either there to admire and assist, or
is given no further thought.
   I noted Mr. Jarndyce, speaking to his ward Richard Carstone: “I am only your friend and distant kinsman. I have no power over you whatsoever. But I wish and hope to retain your confidence, if I do nothing to forfeit it." Compare that with Sir Leicester's attitude toward his
dependents and I think this is another strong comment by Dickens on the aristocratic attitude.
   Is there any hope for Richard Carstone? He keeps repeating the same pattern. “So
Richard said there was an end of it,---and immediately began, on no other foundation, to build as many castles in the air as would man the great wall of China.”

marcie · « **Reply #288 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:19:18 AM »

Barbara, that's a very good point you make: "Toward the end of the chapter I do not know if Caddy sees what her mother did teach her is a benefit to Caddy and she does say how her learned strength with pen and ink allows her to do the writing where as, Prince can do what it takes to assure an income with his parent-learned manner toward his students."

Even though it seems to me that Caddy and Prince have been taken advantage of by their respective mother and father, they have learned very useful skills in the process.

Babi, re Richard Carstone, I agree with you. I think that the last lines that we hear about him in this chapter, which you quoted “So Richard said there was an end of it,---and immediately began, on no other foundation, to build as many castles in the air as would man the great wall of China.” do not bode well for him.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #289 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:34:35 AM »

Whoops i see you posted while I was typing away marcie - I guess everything in life is a two edged sword. It is just hard sometimes to find the edge on the other side.

Interesting Babi the differences in the two men - I see Lord Dedlock maintaining his position, power and therefore wealth by being pragmatic, living in the now, continuing to play to the hilt the dramatic role of the peerage, and does not "suffer fools gladly." Where as, John Jarndyce seems to have wealth - how much or where he accumulated his wealth we do not know however, he maintains his power by keeping his finger on the pulse of the lives of many and in order to have the many as his wards or house guests he must make them feel valued.

A Kate Chopin, author, 1850-1904 quote, "He greatly valued his possessions, chiefly because they were his, and derived genuine pleasure from contemplating a painting, a statuette, a rare lace curtain - no matter what - after he had bought it and placed it among his household gods." I would for John Jarndyce include in his collection people - he helps them however, he does keep them around almost like a trophy without saying it. Where as some philanthropists, like Bill Gates try to empower people to live their own independent life.

I became curious and here is a link to a nice article on Victorian Philanthropy Within the article I found these two sentences enlightening - "The Victorian model of philanthropy was tied to religious and social morality, designed to help those who were deemed worthy of salvation, but it usually did not cater for the very poorest in society. In contrast, the self-help model tried to empower the poor and saw the eventual development of the co-operative movement and friendly societies."
http://www.spatialagency.net/database/how/empowerment/philanthropic.housing

Hmmm so as long as Richard is "worthy of salvation" he will be helped. He seems to be teetering and that puts even John Jarndyce in a precarious position with his values, need for personal power that helping others provides versus, the accepted socially correct morals of the day.

JoanP · « **Reply #290 on:** March 06, 2012, 02:50:25 PM »

A busy morning - I'm in here late - and see we are moving onward at a fast pace to the much anticipated fifth installment. I'm going to backpedal a minute and ask what you all thought of Mr. Bayham Badger. We're sure to meet him again, since he will have much influence on Richard in the capacity of his mentor.

Quote

I was fascinated with Mr. and Mrs. Badger. She takes all her importance from the rank and position of her husbands, and Mr. Badger is happy to be part of the proud
line. Babi

Babi, this couple really puzzled me. Was the dinner at the Badgers' just comic relief or was Dickens making a point with the scene. If so, what was it?

The only think I picked up in that interlude - the comment about Mrs. Badger and her three husbands: "... she's never really loved, but once." Does this bring Lady Dedlock to mind? Mrs. Badger doesn't really love Mr. B. Lady Dedlock has never forgotten a great love?

JoanP · « **Reply #291 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:08:18 PM »

About Dickens and Philanthropists - he really seems to have no use for them on the whole. But does he put John Jarndyce's philanthropy in the same category?

Do you trust Cousin John Jarndyce? I have a funny suspicion that he knew that by putting Richard and the beautiful Ada Clare in close proximity, love would bloom. Did you notice his comment when Esther told him of the romance, his comment was, "already?" I'm filing that away as a suspicion to watch for...though I have no idea what his motive might be...

While I'm all over this kindly philanthropist, I'm wondering why he wants to visit Miss Flite in her flat? Why would he be interested in her? Do you think he knows more than we do about the settlement she awaits? Do you think I'm too suspicious?

I can understand why Caddie would become friends with Miss Flite. For the simple reason - she really has no friends.

When Esther learns of Prince Turveydrop, she isn't happy with the news, thinks Cady is taking a rash step. But when she meets him, she likes him. Dickens seems to like him too - the fair, flaxen-haired, blue eyed child, taken advantage of by his greedy father with false teeth, false whiskers, false wig... The son in threadbare clothers, the father decked out in his finery... Does this mean that Esther and Jarndyce prefer young Turveydrop to Caddy's mother's obvious choice, Mr. Quale?

JoanK · « **Reply #292 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:21:01 PM »

I can't help feeling that Dickens had particular people that he knew in mind with these characters. They are like political cartoons, that are recognizable if you know the person, but exaggerate one particular characteristic to rediculous extent.

I'm not sure I would have wanted to be one of Dickens' friends. I'd be scared to read his books for fear of seeing myself in this funhouse mirror.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #293 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:33:04 PM »

My gut reaction is that John Jarndyce is supplying through the lawyers her shilling a day and he wants a close up look as he did with Esther when she was in the carriage on the way to school. But then you are right - he chooses who he helps and that maybe the trail to follow or at least keep in mind.

Jonathan · « **Reply #294 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:42:02 PM »

'Lady Dedlock has never forgotten a great love?'

Yes, that's becoming fairly evident. Enough so to arouse Tulkinghorn's suspicions. He makes it his business to find out. Is there something in Lady Dedlocks past which could adversely affect the Dedlock House? Sir Leceister looks to him to protect his interests.

Babi suggests that Lady D needs some purpose in her life. It looks to me like she has achieved everything she set out to do: married into wealth and social position. And it has turned out boring. But somewhere in the past she did have a real romance.

It's curious to pick out the victims of the protracted Jarndyce and Jarndyce lawsuit, and how it affected them individually. We've been told about the wrecks and devastation left in its wake. It has certainly left John Jarndyce sensitized to everything disagreeable. It seems to me he is on a mission of reconciliation in the family, and a helping hand to unfortunates.

I find it interesting that Dickens makes Richard a victim of both the Jarndyce matter and the school system which has made a versifyer out of him. Really, in those days they felt educated with a bit of Latin.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #295 on:** March 06, 2012, 06:00:32 PM »

I am wanting to read how in the world Lady D met Leicester Dedlock and other than he falling for her why she married him if she had another love in her life - just for money??!!?? Maybe but comparing her to her sister's lifestyle when her sister was taking care of Esther it was not as if they were as poor as many we have read about - well we shall see - maybe she is cold hearted and married for money but still how did they meet - where did they meet.

And please anyone - what is the Salute to Skittles and also, what is a jack-towel neckcloth

JoanP · « **Reply #296 on:** March 06, 2012, 06:41:07 PM »

Barbara, have we learned definitively that Lady Dedlock and Miss Barbary, Esther's aunt, are sisters - or is this an example of Dickens' power of suggestion?

Jonathan - do you find that the victims are almost always young people? Do you see Richard Carstone a victim?

Barbara... a footnote - for what it's worth -

from chapter XI "Our Dear Brother" -

"At the appointed hour arrives the Coroner, for whom the Jury men are waiting, and who is received with a salute of skittles 7 from the good dry skittleground attached to the Sol's Arms."

7 A noisy bowling game, played with ninepins.

Maybe it was a form of casual applause at the arrival of the Coroner who arrives late for the inquiry?

marcie · « **Reply #297 on:** March 06, 2012, 08:49:30 PM »

Good ideas, everyone re the skittles. I'll take a stab at the skittles reference too. This is my guess: There are a group of men playing skittles in the dry area (not muddy) attached to the Sol's Arms. As the Coroner arrives, the players lift up their skittles (similar to bowling pins) in salute.

A jack towel is "a long towel with the ends sewed together, for hanging on a roller." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jack+towel

The reference to George IV earlier in the sentence led me to look up a photo of him. His "neckcloth" does sort of look like a roller towel. See http://theregencyinkwell.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/princeregent.jpg

Barbara, I'm glad you asked the questions about the meaning of some of these phrases. I just skimmed over them in the reading but you've made me really think!

marcie · « **Reply #298 on:** March 06, 2012, 09:20:30 PM »

JoanP, re Jarndyce visiting Miss Flite with the rest of the group, I'm thinking along Barbara's lines, that he is the one giving her the shilling and wants to check on her, as he did initially with Esther.

Are you suspicious of him? I'm not.... at least not yet. He seems like a good individual who wants to help others. He tells his wards that he does not want to influence their decisions because of his position as their benefactor. Of course, it would be hard for the young wards not to be influenced by him.

Jarndyce does seem to want to avoid thinking of anything that might be negative (east winds) so it's possible that he may not see the whole picture re anyone he wants to help. He seems to want to avoid difficult decisions. hmmmm... maybe we should be suspicious. Are any of the rest of you suspicious of him?

marcie · « **Reply #299 on:** March 06, 2012, 09:21:40 PM »

Jonathan, I agree with everything you say, though I could not say it as well. Tulkinghorn is on the scent and will protect his master against anything adverse to Sir L's person or position relating to Lady Dedlock.

Quote from: Jonathan on March 06, 2012, 03:42:02 PM

'Lady Dedlock has never forgotten a great love?'

Yes, that's becoming fairly evident. Enough so to arouse Tulkinghorn's suspicions. He makes it his business to find out. Is there something in Lady Dedlocks past which could adversely affect the Dedlock House? Sir Leceister looks to him to protect his interests.

Babi suggests that Lady D needs some purpose in her life. It looks to me like she has achieved everything she set out to do: married into wealth and social position. And it has turned out boring. But somewhere in the past she did have a real romance.

It's curious to pick out the victims of the protracted Jarndyce and Jarndyce lawsuit, and how it affected them individually. We've been told about the wrecks and devastation left in its wake. It has certainly left John Jarndyce sensitized to everything disagreeable. It seems to me he is on a mission of reconciliation in the family, and a helping hand to unfortunates.

I find it interesting that Dickens makes Richard a victim of both the Jarndyce matter and the school system which has made a versifyer out of him. Really, in those days they felt educated with a bit of Latin.

PatH · « **Reply #300 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:34:40 PM »

Jackcloth: my book defines it as a cloth shaped like a roller-towel, wound around the neck so as to resemble a high stiff collar--just like your picture, Marcie. I would not have believed a roller-towel could be so elegant.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #301 on:** March 06, 2012, 11:28:27 PM »

Wow thanks for the skinny on Jack-towel collars or cloth what evers... Interesting I can almost picture them.

Joan I remember miss-reading and thinking the Godmother was the Grandmother and then someone posted that no, she was the Aunt, the sister of Lady Dedlock - I'm just going with that and it filled me with many many questions since it seems Esther and her Godmother who lived above poverty but not lavish and so, if the Godmother is the sister of Lady D they were not from peerage therefore, Lady D. married into it. Again, how in the world did she and Leicester meet and how did her sister become the Godmother of Esther which, as I know a Godmother is typically not a family member but a good friend and often the maid of honor at the mother's wedding. We have not read anything that suggests Lady Dedlock visited her sister and how come she did not have her sister living with them at Chesney Wold much less, visit them or have her come to the townhouse in London before Lady D. left for Paris. All very peculiar - also, we have no idea who was the mother or father to Lady D and her sister.

Wasn't learning Greek and Latin the major form of education so that you read many volumes in philosophy, wars, debate and history in either Greek or Latin, considered a 'Classical' education and if you had an interest in medicine you had to know German since all medical books were written in German...? I did read that schools for the masses were established by law in England after 1870 however, there was still a debate till the turn of the century if the poor should be educated in schools.

I am remembering many authors who wrote about England during the 1800s including some biographical materiel on the lives of some Poets that as young boys they were put under the instruction of a minister and often lived in the minister's home with a few other boys. And reading other novels set in this period it appears there were tutors for the wealthy titled families. It sounds from our story that even as an older Collage Age pupil Richard studies with someone in the profession he is choosing rather then learning in a College. Cannot imagine how the Badgers and Richard will get on with each other - I shake my head with that one...

Thinking about Caddy and how she befriended Miss Flite - falls in love with someone who appears to be living with and earning a living from the education she knows about and desires and is aware of her skills and Prince's skills all at the age of 13 or 14 - whew she is wise beyond her years and is determined to get a life that matches her idea of how a life should be lived. Interesting to me is how Dickens has Caddy feeling sorry for her Dad and yet, no where does it hint that it takes two to tango and 10 children were not born by Blessed Mother Jellyby.

Ok so there was before 1971, 20 Shillings or 240 pennies to the pound therefore, one shilling is like a nickle is to the dollar. I wonder the value of a nickle or a shilling in 1852? OK found it "What cost $1 in 1852 would cost $25.88 in 2010." So one shilling is worth about $1.30 American and aha found this... a $4. loaf of bread today would cost sixteen cents in 1852.

marcie · « **Reply #302 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:37:23 AM »

PatH, yes that roller towel in the picture is quite elegant! It seems that Dickens is making fun of that neckwear fashion.

LOL, Barbara, You say, "Interesting to me is how Dickens has Caddy feeling sorry for her Dad and yet, no where does it hint that it takes two to tango and 10 children were not born by Blessed Mother Jellyby."

Yes, it does seem that most of the men of the day didn't take any responsibility for the number of children they had! Perhaps they wanted so many because children often died young due to sickness.

Large families were the norm. In 1870 many families had five or six children. See http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/Homework/victorians/life.htm#family

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #303 on:** March 07, 2012, 03:33:40 AM »

Marcie, I'm sure that is right - large families because (a) so many died in infancy (every time I go to church here in Haddington, I walk through the graveyard and see so many memorials to little children) and (b) you needed to make sure you had some children to look after you in your old age. No welfare state then. And as there soon won't be again if Cameron has his way, I'd better start training my children as nursemaids......

Also, of course, they had no contraception.

Barb - I agree, it takes two to produce all these children.

Rosemary

Babi · « **Reply #304 on:** March 07, 2012, 09:13:46 AM »

An interesting take on John Jarndyce, BARB. In his defense, tho', I must say that in
those times, there was little a young woman could do to live an independent life unless
she was independently wealthy. Ada and Esther are both most fortunate to have a relative/
benefactor who happily welcomes them into his home. Neither does Jarndyce strike me
as one who will abandon someone he cares for,...like Richard..who is showing a sad lack
of good sense.

Good question, JOANP. I would think the Badgers would show up again, but meanwhile
they definitely are comic relief.
Two attractive, pleasant young people in close proximity, with interests in common?
It's only natural they should 'fall in love'. Why ascribe some 'motive' to their cousin
for noticing it? Some readers, I see, are suspicious of John Jarndyce and his motives.
My own take is that as Esther is Dickens' ideal young woman, John Jarndyce represents
his ideal of the kindly man of wealth. He avoids praise and is delighted with the
young people in his household. He is the 'hero' of this book, IMO.

Great find, MARCIE. That has got to be the jacktowel neckcloth.

JoanP · « **Reply #305 on:** March 07, 2012, 09:37:47 AM »

Babi, perhaps Dickens sees himself in John Jarndyce - with his benevolent regard for all who are young and beautiful. Will Jarndyce stand out as the only "philanthropist" to escape Dickens' scathing opinion? From that angle, I can see where you would see him as the "hero" of the book. You may be right. I'm still going to watch him closely. He just seems too good to be true.

So next he meets Caddy Jellybe - how can he help her? Does Dickens himself seem to look upon her plans to marry young Turveydrop with approval? Will Jarndyce? Do they seem to be a young couple in love?

An interesting question, Marcie - can you see the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince getting together for a little engagement party? Mrs. Jellybe and Mr. Turveydrop in the same room? What a scene! No, I think they'd have to elope - though I can't see that happening with Jarndyce's approval - and blessing. Do you think this marriage is in Caddy's best interest? Will Jarndyce?

pedln · « **Reply #306 on:** March 07, 2012, 10:09:30 AM »

Quote

Thinking about Caddy and how she befriended Miss Flite

Yes, she did, Barb, and it works both ways. Isn’t Miss Flite teaching Caddy about sewing – that’s why she tried so desperately to sew up Peepy’s clothes. Can’t you just picture that child when he and Caddy appeared at the Jarndyce lodgings. I think the Esther’s first visit to the Jellybys “primed the pump” so to speak for Caddy, that she saw something in Esther that made her determined to try to better herself. Sort of an “if Esther could do it, she could too.” And as someone here mentioned earlier, Miss Flite was the only likely friend available.

marcie · « **Reply #307 on:** March 07, 2012, 11:04:43 AM »

Rosemary, those are good points about no reliable contraception methods in those days and the need for children to care for their parents.

Babi, I agree with you that Ada and Esther are both fortunate to have a relative/benefactor who welcomes them into his home. He may have foreseen that Ada and Richard might make a good "couple." It would seem natural to want those two to get together.

Pedln, yes, the Caddy/Miss Flite arrangement goes both ways. They are both helping one another.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #308 on:** March 07, 2012, 11:06:39 AM »

Yes, I agree, as I said I think Caddy is brilliant and wise beyond her years as she propels herself into a more genteel and comfortable life. And that would be a fun scene to see the parents of Prince and Caddy together - it will be interesting to see how Dickens handles that one won't it...

I thought the next chapter the typical scene of poverty for the Victorian era - Skimpole in his frivolous and oily way makes it all sound like the gods are arranging it all much as the traditions of Buddha dropped into the story and to quote Shakespeare, all's well that ends well.

Had to really search but found that a follerer is a debt collector and another said a repo man so it would be easy to understand why folks were not wanting to befriend him - he was the one that knocked on their door when their debts were called and they could not pay.

JoanK · « **Reply #309 on:** March 07, 2012, 12:30:27 PM »

"those are good points about no reliable contraception methods in those days and the need for children to care for their parents."

Yes, in pre-industrial societies, the birthrate is very high, but so is the deathrate. This leads to something called the "demographic transition". As a country begins to industrialize, the death rate falls (from better hygene, nutrition) but at first the birthrate remains the same. There is a tremendous boom in population for a generation or so. As people move to the cities, these large families become more and more of a burden. People take steps to bring the birthrate down, and population growth levels off again.

This boom and leveling occurred in this country around the turn of the century. It is illustrated by my family: my great great grandparents had 10 children, but only two lived to adulthood. We have letters from my g-g-grandfather, as he passed the churchyard where so many of his children were burried.

My grandparents, living after the deathrate had dropped, also had 10 children but they all lived. We have letters there, too, showing how hard it was to support this large family.

My parents had two children. By this time, the population growth had leveled out, as people took matters into their own hands.

JudeS · « **Reply #310 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:19:40 PM »

Oh, Serendipity!
Yesterday, at the Dentists Office, I found a Feb. issue of Smithsonian magazine with a ten page article on Dickens!
I learned so much and will add to the discussion some interesting facts that I hope wiill add to our discussion.

1)In Chatham England there is a "Dickens Theme Park which recreates the scenarios of many of
D.'s novels. It is a kitchy 100 Million dollar project to which people throng from all over the world.

2)Dostoyevski, who had read some of Dicken's work was so impressed, that he made a trip to England just to meet the man himself and discuss writing. (When I had compared their writing I couldn't imagined that Dickens was such a great influence on Dostoyevski.)

3)Dickens, found time, together with Angela Coutts, one of Englands wealthiest women, to create and administer the Home for Homeless Women, a shelter for prostitutes in londons East End.

4)in 1861 Dickens domestic life had become increasingly unhappy. He had fathered ten children, micromanaged their lives and pushed all to succeed. One by one they fell short of his expectations. Dickens had more energy than anyone in the world and expected his sons to follow in his footsteps. But he had the fear that the genetic traits -the lassitude in Catherins family and
the fecklessness and dishonesty in his own-had passed down to his sons. Out of the seven boys many escaped to Canada, Australia and India at their Father's urging.

Jonathan · « **Reply #311 on:** March 07, 2012, 03:55:49 PM »

That must have been a pleasant surprise for you, Jude. Thanks for those interesting facts about Dickens and his influence. Everybody was reading him. Laughing and learning. His stuff seems a little quaint somehow, but he's as beloved as ever.

What a style! What fun trying to get at the meaning of things he puts into his story. What an imagination. Turning the noise of the skittles into a salute to the coroner arriving to investigate an unusual death. I doubt if the players were aware of the role they were playing in Dickens' narrative. Bizarre!

JoanP · « **Reply #312 on:** March 07, 2012, 06:03:55 PM »

Jude, I have to ask...did you take notes - or did you TAKE the magazine from the dentists? It was last month's...

I looked all over for ours - husband told me we no longer get it. No wonder I didn't see it around. Thanks for the information you've posted here today.

I've a killer cold - got it from my husband, I'm quite sure - who got it from our granddaughter. Have felt like doing nothing , except sit here on this lovely day - bundled up and sniffling.
I found myself thinking of Miss Flite and how everyone is gathering in her tiny humble flat at Krook's Rag and Bottle shop on Chancery Lane. There's a question about the names of her birds - quite a few names. ...{why name a bird "spinach"?}

I was more interested in the name Dickens gave to Miss Flite herself. We're told she intends to set all of of her birds free - once the judgment comes in. The birds will be free to take flight. The same with Miss Flite - who will no longer have to live here in this humble flat.

But as I was thinking of Miss Flite's flat - some doggeral opportunity here, Jude? - I began to think of each of the young ladies flocking to her flat - Caddy, Esther, Ada - each "caged" in her own way - I wonder how a decision in the Jarndyce case might affect the future of these young ladies.
Is there any reason to believe that Miss Flite's case is connected to the Jarndyce matters?

JudeS · « **Reply #313 on:** March 07, 2012, 07:29:48 PM »

Joan,
Hope you feel better soon. But you reminded me of birds and their strange names. Dickens himself was a bird lover. He even buried his birds with gravestones when they died. He had a beloved canary named Dick to whom he fed a thimblefull of sherry each morning. His gravestone reads:"This is the grave of Dick, the best of birds. Died at Gad's Hill Place, fourteenth of October
1866."
Joan I purloined the magazine from the Dentist. Perhaps I will return it when I return in two weeks.
Now I will give you one last silly ditty for your amusement.

From D's pen the plot revealed,
Three friends closely sealed:
Ada, Esther's doll, cuddled.
Rick, slightly befuddled.
Esther, feelings muddled.
Anon, we will discover their fate.
Now we read,ponder and debate.

marcie · « **Reply #314 on:** March 07, 2012, 09:09:50 PM »

Jude, you are brilliant! I love your verses. Thank you for the information from the Smithsonian. Out of his seven sons, it's so sad that none met his expectations. He was such a larger-than-life figure I guess that he was too big an act to follow. Also, his fears about heredity might have been self-fulfilling. Perhaps, he should have had hopes for his daughters. It might have been easier for them to succeed.

JoanK, how lucky that you have those letters from your ancestors. You have your own mini-history of the times.

Jonathan, you may be correct, that it is the noise made by the skittles that is the "salute" to the coroner. Yes, what an imagination Dickens had. His language is so colorful as are the fantastic characters he creates.

Barbara, yes, the follerer was the debt collector. No wonder that the children he left after he died were not welcomed or cared for by some of the people in their neighborhood.

JoanP, yes, those caged birds of Miss Flite have to be symbolic of the characters who are each caged in some way... and more broadly symbolic of the people, who are "caged" by the courts. Some of her birds have lived and died in the cages, since they won't be released until the Court's judgement day.

The significance of the birds makes me think that the cat, Lady Jane, who is always trying to get the best of those birds--in a very agressive way-- is like the courts in regard to the people. Lady Jane is Krook's cat and he is the "double" of the Lord Chancellor. His cat is as greedy as the Court.

marcie · « **Reply #315 on:** March 08, 2012, 01:41:06 AM »

Miss Flite's birds are called Hope, Joy, Youth, Peace, Rest, Life, Dust, Ashes, Waste, Want, Ruin, Despair, Madness, Death, Cunning, Folly, Words, Wigs, Rags, Sheepskin, Plunder, Precedent, Jargon, Gammon, and Spinach. She also added two more birds called the Wards in Jarndyce. What do you make of those names?

bookad · « **Reply #316 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:26:08 AM »

Quote

He was a fat old gentleman with a false complexion, false teeth, false whiskers, and a wig. He had a fur collar, and he had a padded breast to his coat, which only wanted a star or a broad blue ribbon to be complete. He was pinched in, and swelled out, and got up, and strapped down, as much as he could possibly bear. He had such a neck-cloth on (puffing his very eyes out of their natural shape), and his chin and even his ears so sunk into it, that it seemed as though be must inevitably double up, if it were cast loose. He had, under his arm, a hat of great size and weight, shelving downward from the crown to the brim; and in his hand a pair of white gloves, with which he flapped it, as he stood poised on one leg, in a high-shouldered, round-elbowed state of elegance not to be surpassed. He had a cane, he had an eye-glass, he had a snuff-box, he had rings, he had wristbands, he had everything but any touch of nature; he was not like youth, he was not like age, he was not like anything in the world but a model of Deportment.

--from ch 14

I wonder how people found Mr. Dickens repitation with some of his sentences; I don't think authors today would be overly poplular if they used this type of repetition too often as seen in the last line of the above quote. ...but I love the description of Mr. Turveydrop, senior.

Mr. T, senior could be in competition with Lady Dedlock, I think....they are both so immersed in their fashion and being 'out there' for the world to notice with not really much else on their minds, but boredom in Mrs. D's case--Mr. T seems so swelled up with self-infatuation he probably doesn't need any outside interests...hard work to be so full of self
self

Cady seems to be trading a mother for a father-in-law, both with a major interest that is time consuming ...will that be a major downfall in a marriage??

am wondering if Miss Flite's new source of income, coming so soon after the death of the other resident down the hall from her flat, ??Nemo might have left it in his will to aid her...was a shilling very much at that time??

how did Mr. Dickens ever keep his characters straight when writing this book--I would be interested to see his system;

as you can see I am somewhat behind everyone, but enjoying the read and catching up

Deb

Babi · « **Reply #317 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:52:26 AM »

I'd love to see Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Turveydrop getting together. Which could be the
most self-satisfied and disdainful, I wonder. As for eloping, Prince is far too
obedient and loving a son to even dream of such a thing. They could not possibly marry
without Mr. Turveydrop's blessing.

JOANP, I understand 'spinach' was used as a slang word at one time. One of the meanings
was 'banknotes', which may be why Miss Flite used it. I also have the impression I've
read where it was used in the sense of 'nonsense'...which could be another reason Miss
Flite chose it.

JUDE, I think that's your best yet. MARCIE, those bird names have to refer to Miss
Flite's long experiences with the Court of Chancery. They are so expressive, from Hope
to Gammon and Spinach!

Another mystery! Another hint, or portent, of future revelations. (Mr. Krook)
"kept close to Mr. Jarndyce, and sometimes detained him, under one pretense or other....
as if he were tormented by an inclination to enter upon some secret subject, which he
could not make up his mind to approach.” What does Mr. Krook know?

JoanP · « **Reply #318 on:** March 08, 2012, 09:23:37 AM »

Babi - I think everything that Krook knows comes from copying the papers he collects in his shop...though he can't read them, can he?

Thank you so much for translation of that bird's name - "Spinach". Now that you explain the name as "banknotes" it makes perfect sense. All the names seem to refer to her court case and what is to come once it is settled?
I have a footnote in the Norton Critical:
Ham {gammon} and spinach, a dish, but here quoted from the Nursery rhyme - "A Frog He Would a-wooing Go

Quote

"A frog he would a-wooing go,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
A frog he would a-wooing go,
Whether his mother would let him or no.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley."

The words of the song made no more sense to me than the names given to Miss Flite's birds -
EXCEPT when I read this explanation of the song, I begin to see the connection to the story we are reading now - Listen to this -

"This song is one of the different variants of the song ''Frog Went A-Courting'' a very old English folk song with Scottish origins. The first known record was in Scots as "The frog came to the myl dur" in ‘’Wedderburn's Complaynt of Scotland’’ in 1548.
The song tells a story about a frog who rides to ask Miss Mouse if she would marry him. Miss Mouse needs to ask permission from her Uncle Rat before the two can work out details of the wedding."

I've another footnote on the Gannon name - "a seemingly nonsensical style of talk that may mislead a listener."

JoanP · « **Reply #319 on:** March 08, 2012, 09:56:30 AM »

DEb - I'm interested in hearing more about Miss Flite's "new source of income." She does seem to be doing quite a bit of entertaining in this little flat - does she serve tea? I hadn't noticed a new source of income, but easily could have missed it. I'm fairly certain it was not left to her by the deceased... perhaps Mr. Jarndyce is helping her out, now that Esther has brought her to his attention?

When reading your post about Dickens style, the repetition - I couldn't help but think of the families gathered around to listen to whomever was able to read, read it aloud. I think the writing style would be quite effective when read this way.

How did Dickens keep his characters straight? That's the jackpot question! I've read that he liked to tell his readers that the work just flowed from his pen as if he were inspired while writing - when the reality is that he was highly organized and methodical.

I've got the Norton Critical Edition in front of me - in the back there is a whole section on " Dickens' Working Plans" Copies of them too in his own handwriting too. If you are ever in London, in the Victoria and Albert Museum - you can see these pages for yourself.

Here is a link to an article describing the detailed plans he created for each of the Bleak House instalments. These are his "working sheets" for the plot, theme and characters, so he made changes as he went along - but kept this ready reference before him at all times.
There are whole books published on how he kept himself organized while writing Bleak House. This might be more information that you are looking for - I found it fascinating...

Dickens' working sheets for his novels

Deb - you're not far behind if you are reading of Mr. Turveydrop!
Jude - I liked the word "purloined."

We'll have to collect your doggeral verses in one spot, don't you agree, Marcie?

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