Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online

[JudeS]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 

Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens

                   

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator. The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket. Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending. The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.

Model of Parental Deportment  (click to enlarge)

INSTALMENT VIII IX

DATE of PUBLICATION    Oct. 1852 Nov. 1852

CHAPTERS 23-25 26-28

DISCUSSION DATES Mar.21-25  Mar.26-30

Mr. Chadband Improving a Tought Subject (click to enlarge)

               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge. Chapter  XXIII Esther's Narrative This chapter creates brings back and develops several characters, themes, and subplots. 1. Why does Hortense visit Esther and what is the outcome? 2. What does Esther learn about Richard's status? What is his link to Miss Flite? 3. When Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, Esther says, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time? 4. What are the reactions of Mr. Turveydrop and of Mrs. Jellyby to their learning of Prince's and Caddy's engagement? 5. What do you think of Mr. Jarndyce's "gift" to Esther?  Chapter XXIV  An Appeal Case 1. What does Mr. Jarndyce ask of Richard and Ada before Richard leaves for his Army post? What is the reaction of everyone? 2. Where has Gridley been staying? What do we learn about Gridley and the affects of the Chancery on him? What is his association with Miss Flite? 3. What do we learn about Mr. Bucket in this chapter? Chapter XXV  Mrs. Snagsby sees it all 1. What form do Mr. Snagsby's nightmares take, after his dealings with Mr. Bucket? 2. What does Mrs. Snagsby think she "sees"? 3. What kind of a sleuth are we given to understand Mrs. Snagsby will make?

 

Related Links:
 Characters in Bleak House by Groups;  Map of London  1851 (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES ; Interactive Map of London

 

                                                  

Bleak House  "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

Pedlin
I'm not sharp but I didn't catch the relationship between George and Mrs. Rouncewell because I knew it from the Git go. On the long list of characters that is on the header, he appears on the list  as # FIVE , out of the list of about fifty people.
Printing out the list and constantly referring to it has been SO helpful. The story is so convaluted that I write notes about the people as we go along.

I'm beginning to think that the role of Skimpole in the story is to play the buffoon who exposes underlying truths. Sort of like the King's jester. In Chapter XIX he is asked by Boythorn:
"Is there such a thing as principle?"
Skimpole answers: "I don't know what you it is you call by that name or what it is or where it is or who possesses it. I find it comfortable-for I am a mere child".
However Skimpole is still a very unprincipled guy who sponges off of others and uses them.
 
The only person that uses HIM is Dickenss.

[BarbStAubrey]

Laura we all read stories with what we bring - my only concern reading a novel written long ago, words can have different meaning - so that if we had a sentence today about a 'cool' kid 160 years from now that slang may no longer be recognized and a reader could assume he was unfriendly or dressed warmer - there are a few Victorian and Dickens dictionaries online - I think I linked one of them on this site - by accident reviewing a list I found words that had meanings other than I imagined and that was how I found the meaning for 'natural' - I went back and reread the sentence with the new meaning and it fit - with the amount of irony and sarcasm used by many British authors and that we have found here from Dickens it could be that it was only used to describe behavior rather than the malady.

Describing the behavior it would be like including a Punch and Judy show into the story - and who knows - maybe that was the intent - I saw it as describing a malady - maybe Alzheimer's or maybe another illness with all the descriptions of how their short stature and short brain power and monkey like faces was inherited - that to me was a further reason to consider it a malady -

If the grandparents of Bart are an allegory to Punch and Judy - that could fit - in Victorian times Punch was called the professor and he was a hunchback - so that the grandfather needing jostling in his chair we know he is not a healthy figure of a man and his being a money lender rep would be in line with being called a professor. This is the time in history when Pretty Polly was removed from the show to make it a show for children and yet, you could almost see Dickens using irony that the daughter, named Judy is the opposite of a Pretty Polly but yet, she catches the eye of George. Like taking the pieces of Punch and Judy characters and changing them up a bit - always reminds me of that move that Cher did where the characters were changed up but the same as the opera, La Boheme which was featured in the move.

Anyhow we all found the chapter to be either alarming or confusing or brutal - it sure got our attention and each of our viewpoints is maybe going to help us sort out the story and this time in history. Interesting that is not mentioned at all and probably because it does not fit the storyline but only a short distance away the Crystal Palace opened in 1851 - one of the most beautiful buildings with all the latest inventions and collections of art on display, opened by the Royal Family with dignitaries in attendance from around the world. Surely Lady D in real life would have visited the exhibition. Just as interesting, this is taking place 5 years after the worst of the Irish famine sent millions of Irish to their graves and as immigrants to the US, Canada and Australia. The dichotomy of Pomp and abject starvation seems to be a hallmark for this time in history and in his way Dickens seems to capture that as a theme in his story.

[BarbStAubrey]

Jude just a thought I wonder if Skimpole is a prototype of Beau Brummel the Dandy who sponged off everyone especially the king - he was impeccably dress and he had a witty tongue saying outrageous things [till he took it too far when the king put on some weight] - if that fits at all it would help to elevate John Jarndyce to being more than a philanthropist but someone that has state secrets and position with many at his beck and call.

What a great idea

The story is so convaluted that I write notes about the people as we go along.

[JoanK]

Bart's grqandparents as Punch and Judy: That's a good idea! Who hit who in those shows: was it Judy hitting Punch or vica versa?

Yes, the wife definately has senile dementia: Dickens says she has become like a child in her old age. And Dickens is definitely being sarcastic about the unloving way her husband treats her. But Dickens doesn't seem to have any more sympathy for her.

I loved Dickens' "Night Walks". You really get the feel of the night!

And Mr. Skimpole as the buffoon? Good idea. It's not clear how he runs up all these debts, when he's being taken care of by Mr. J. Fancy clothes?

[JoanK]

OK, in Chapter 22, our detective Bucket makes his appearance. Why does it happen in such a spoooky way? What's with the ghostlike tone of this chapter, anyway?

[Jonathan]

Enter Mr Bucket. Detective Bucket. Do you think the author is preparing us for a crime? I just love reading all your posts. And they confirm my own feelings about a significant feature of Dickens' style. Keep the reader guessing. Almost every character appears with questions, with a mystery about them. Even Grandmother Smallweed. Is she suffering from a malady? All the Smallweeds are afflicted with some malady that keeps them stunted, with simian features. Isn't it beginning to appear that all the ills in the book are social ills. These people are all victims of their environment. It seems to me that Mrs Small weeds is really only throwing back at her husband what she's been hearing for a lifetime: numbers having to do with money, money, money....

Why has Mr Bucket been called in? It seems, that threat, that Mr Tulkinghorn feels is coming from Mr Gridley. And why has Hortense come to Mr Tulkinghorn? Ostensibly about a recommendation for a job. And just like that she finds herself at the center of a curious investigation about somone involved with the dead law writer. Is she also on a mission of revenge for having been dismissed?

[marcie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 

Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens

                   

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator. The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket. Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending. The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.

Model of Parental Deportment  (click to enlarge)

INSTALMENT VII VIII

DATE of PUBLICATION    Oct. 1852 Nov. 1852

CHAPTERS 23-25 26-28

DISCUSSION DATES Mar.21-25  Mar.26-30

Mr. Chadband Improving a Tought Subject (click to enlarge)

               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge. Chapter  XXIII Esther's Narrative This chapter brings back and develops several characters, themes, and subplots. 1. Why does Hortense visit Esther and what is the outcome? 2. What does Esther learn about Richard's status? What is his link to Miss Flite? 3. When Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, Esther says, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time? 4. What are the reactions of Mr. Turveydrop and of Mrs. Jellyby to their learning of Prince's and Caddy's engagement? 5. What do you think of Mr. Jarndyce's "gift" to Esther?  Chapter XXIV  An Appeal Case 1. What does Mr. Jarndyce ask of Richard and Ada before Richard leaves for his Army post? What is the reaction of everyone? 2. Where has Gridley been staying? What do we learn about Gridley and the affects of the Chancery on him? What is his association with Miss Flite? 3. What do we learn about Mr. Bucket in this chapter? Chapter XXV  Mrs. Snagsby sees it all 1. What form do Mr. Snagsby's nightmares take, after his dealings with Mr. Bucket? 2. What does Mrs. Snagsby think she "sees"? 3. What kind of a sleuth are we given to understand Mrs. Snagsby will make?

 

Related Links:
 Characters in Bleak House by Groups;  Map of London  1851 (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES ; Interactive Map of London

 

                                                  

Bleak House  "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[marcie]

I've put a new heading in the post above since we're now moving on to the next section. We'll learn more about Mr. Bucket in 24. Who are some of the other characters who have been brought back in this section? What are some of the plots and themes that recur?

[Laura]

Jonathan, I didn’t think we were being prepared for a crime with Mr. Bucket’s appearance.  I thought a crime had already occurred, or was in process, and he was there to investigate, based on this quote:

“There seems to be a doubt whether this dead person [Nemo]wasn’t entitled to a little property, and whether this female [Lady Dedlock] hasn’t been up to some games respecting that property,”

Hmmm…I wonder if there will be further crime(s)?  This book is a mystery!

[JoanP]

What did you think of Bucket?  Not my idea of a hardened police detective working in the seamy underbelly of London, is he?  The man has a heart.  Another one of Dickens "good guys."  I was happy to see him on the scene after the likes of Tulkinghorn, the Smallweeds....

JoanK - you asked about his "ghostly"  spooky appearance, the ghostly tone of the scene when Bucket emerged from the shadows of Tulkinghorn's chambers.  I was taken by surprise  when I saw Tulkinghorn admitting all of these people into his home, weren't you?  I thought he was too private an individual for that.  I'm beginning to think that Tulkinghorn has way too much interest in the Jarndyce case -   When you mentioned "ghostly,"  Joan, I thought of the Ghost Walk out on Chesney Wold - and wondered if Dickens is telling us that we are getting closer to Lady Dedlock's disgrace...

So many mysteries, Laura.  I wonder if you noticed that I stopped collecting them for the link in the header.  It was a full time job!

Before leaving Tulkinghorn's study, I'd like to hear your impression of the painting on the ceiling of Tulkinghorn's study - Allegory.  This isn't the first time Allegory has been mentioned.  There must be some significance.  I went back to the first time and reread the passage in Chapter X, the Law Writer...and found a footnote in the Norton's Critical -

 "Here in a large house, formerly a house of state, lives Mr. Tulkinghorn...But its roomy staircases, passages and antechambers still remain; and even its painted ceilings, where Allegory, in Roman helmet and celestial linen' sprawls among balustrades and pillars, flowers and clouds, and big-legged boys, and makes the head ache - as would seem to be  Allegory's object, more or less." 8

8 Early 18th century painted ceilings featured scenes of personified abstractions such as Virtue or Charity.  The figure of Allegory with his pointing finger suggesting  lessons to be learned from him is dressed in Roman costume in accord with neo-classical fashions in vogue at the time the mansion had been a "house of state."

Wait, there's a bit more about this painting in chapter X on the next page -

"Here beneath the painted ceiling, with foreshortened Allegory staring down at his intrusion, as if it meant to swoop on him, and he cutting it dead, Mr. Tulkinghorn has at once his house and his office."

Now again a reference to Allegory in Chapter XXII - in his office, and his home, we find Tulkinghorn sitting in the twilight..."pondering on all the mysteries he knows, associated with darkening woods in the country and vast shut up houses in town: and perhaps sparing a thought or two for himself, and his family history, and his money, and his will - all a mystery to everyone."

A mystery to everyone - except to Allegory.  Allegory pointing at Tulkinghorn.  Dickens couldn't be any clearer - Tulkinghorn is the man to watch.  And suddenly, just moments following Tulkinghorn's  musings  on his history and his will, appears almost out of nowhere - Mr. Bucket!    Is Bucket a match for Tulkinghorn?

But are you expecting a crime, Jonathan?  A murder?  Do you think Tulkinghorn is capable of murder?  I think he's cold-blooded enough - but I'm not sure if he'd go that far.

[Babi]

  An interesting theory about the Smallwell's and Pungh and Judy, BARB. But Punch and Judy were supposed to be funny, and the Smallweed's definitely are not. Well, okay, throwing the pillow at grandma all the time does have a Punch and Judy aura about it.  
 Thanks so much for that research on Allegory, JOAN. That choice of figure greatly
interested me, but I have come up with no satisfactory answer as to why Dickens chose that one. The pointing finger is very appropriate, of course, but I'm wondering if there is a hidden allegory in all this that we are missing. Perhaps it will become
clearer in time.
   Detective Bucket seems to be a good man, though necessarily..in those days...
somewhat subservient to the upper class professionals and nobles. I’m afraid our glossary fails us here, as the book describes a 'lighted bulls-eye’ which was carried at the waist and used to light one’s way in the dark.  It sounds like a flashlight, but there were none in those days. The glossary defines a bulls-eye as a “large, round ”.  
    Happily, I managed to find the genuine article.  Have a look at the third lantern.
http://www.worthpoint.com/inventory/search?query=%22bulls-eye+lantern%2C+19th+century.
 
 
 

[marcie]

JoanP, I think you're right that Allegory must be pointing to something important.  Tulkinghorn seems to be the key here. Is he employing Bucket? Who/what is Bucket looking for?

Laura, you quote Bucket speaking to Mr. Snagsby: "There seems to be a doubt whether this dead person [Nemo]wasn’t entitled to a little property, and whether this female [Lady Dedlock] hasn’t been up to some games respecting that property.” Lady Dedlock would have no need of property. I think that Bucket be misdirecting Snagsby because Bucket wants Snagsby to keep quiet and he wants to redirect him from his main purpose in finding Jo (which we don't know either).

Babi, I'm not sure that Bucket is subservient. He can play many roles. I think he tells people stories and can take on gruffness or subservience to enable him to get what he wants from them professionally, in his detective role. But how was he with Gridley, when he finally found him? As, JoanP said, I think his exchange with Gridley made him one of the good guys.

Thank you, Babi, for finding that picture of a bulls eye lantern. That makes sense as the object that Bucket carried around to get to Tom-all-alone's.

[BarbStAubrey]

Not much time now but I am curious - the painting of Allegory - there are many Allegories - example Allegory of music - art - various virtues - and I have not found any piece of art yet with a man depicted as Allegory much less one with a Roman dress - I have to get going now and won't be back till much later this evening so anything that is in Norton's that explains which of the many paintings called Allegory this is a copy of or what Allegory the ceiling painting represents would be great...

[PatH]

While there’s still a day left on this section, I’ll catch up with my comments.  I found the Smallweed family unpleasant and creepy too.  The first time I read that chapter, I could hardly stand them, and I had trouble making sense of the business stuff.  Rereading made things clearer to me.

George, who is the son of Mrs. Rouncewell, has met Smallwood by answering an ad for Captain Hawdon (who is presumably Nemo).  At some time in the past, Hawdon ran up a lot of debts with high living, and maybe engaged in some swindles.

George owes Smallwood money—maybe a loan, though it might be blackmail or the result of previous swindles.  Smallwood maintains the story that the money is owed to someone “in the city”, but this might be fiction.  George mutters “The name of your friend in the city begins with a D….”  Later, Smallwood says “In the name of the -------“ and George fills in “Of our friend in the city?”

Smallwood would forgive the money if George would supply him with two names, gotten from his relatives, hence presumably to do with Sir Leicester and Lady Dedlock.

George had stuck with Hawdon for a long time, but now believes him to be dead, though doesn’t know for sure.

[JoanK]

Great summary, PAT.

And in Chapter 23, what they seem to have learned from all this ghosting around is that it was Lady Dedlock, dressed in Hortense's clothes, who asked Jo to show her Nemo's grave.

(notice that everything in this chapter is ghostly. Allegory. The ghostly appearance of bucket. The crowd that follows from the feverhouse (presumably the ghosts of those who have died?).

JoanP: I like the reference to the ghost at Chesney Wold. Are we goint to get ghosts whenever we get close to Lady Dedlock's secret? Or did Dickens just feel "ghosty" that day?

What allegories can we make out of what has happened? Let's keep in mind that we might be reading an allegory. 

[JoanP]

JoanK, I agree.  Dickens is making a point with all of these seemingly unrelated stories.  He's going to pull it all together at the end, I'm sure of it - and yet I have no idea how.  Clearly Tulkinghorn is at the heart of it -  At this time, Esther seems to be playing a minor role, but who knows where Dickens will take us - or her.

I keep thinking of that painted ceiling - Allegory.  JoanK asks if we are reading an allegory.

allegory (AL-eh-GOR-ee): a narrative that serves as an extended metaphor. Allegories are written in the form of fables, parables, poems, stories, and almost any other style or genre. The main purpose of an allegory is to tell a story that has characters, a setting, as well as other types of symbols, that have both literal and figurative meanings. The difference between an allegory and a symbol is that an allegory is a complete narrative that conveys abstract ideas to get a point across, while a symbol is a representation of an idea or concept that can have a different meaning throughout a literary work

Barb, I've told you evertything that Norton told me about this Allegory.  Knowing you, you'll go after that Roman soldier like a dog after a bone.  When I was rereading chapter X when Allegory was first introduced, two things caught my attention.

Mr.T has made this place his home and  his study. Allegory regards Mr. Tulkinghorn an intruder, and appears ready to swoop down on him.   The pointing figure suggests he has lessons to teach.  
Clearly he's pointing at Tulkinghorn.  To destroy him?  To teach him?
Did you notice he is dwelling on "his family history, and his money, and his will - all a mystery to everyone."  His will!  Tulkinghorn's will!

Minutes later, Mr. Bucket appears...did you notice that Mr. Bucket has his own key... to Tulkinghorn's rooms?

 

[Jonathan]

The allegory on the ceiling is important. It was put there by a previous tenant. But it's lost on Mr Tulkinghorn. The allegory speaks of flowers and clouds, of a figure with cheeks like peaches and knees like bunches of blossoms, sturdy legs and arms. But Mr Tulkinghorn never looks up. His chambers have turned into a 'lowering magazine of dust.'

JoanP, you have already quoted from the paragraph beginning with 'Mr Tulkinghorn, sitting in the twilight by the open window, and ending with his gloomy thoughts about that one bachelor friend of his, a man of the same mould and a lawyer too, who lived the same kind of life until he was seventy-five years old, and then, suddenly conceiving (as it is supposed) an impression that it was too monotonous gave his gold watch to his hair-dresser one summer evening, and walked leisurely home to the Temple, and hanged himself.

Mr Tulkinghorn is the tragic figure in this story. One can only wish that Dickens could have allowed him to narrate part of it. Of course that is impossible, Mr Tulkinghorn being so completely secretive. The secrets that he would take with him, if something should happen to him! And it will. We get a clue in that word 'lowering.' Very suggestive. And now, soon into the next chapter we see it again. Hortense, of all people, with a look of 'lowering energy in her face.' That's more than coincidental.

I liked Pat's close analysis of Chapter 21. What a mysterious chapter, with endless puzzling things. Give me two names. Doesn't that sound like an attempt to catch two more flies in the spider web mentioned at the beginning of the chapter. Did Captain Hawdon get caught in it? And then faked a suicide and arrived at Krooks as Nemo? On the run, like Jobling?

Who needs a murder, with all these deaths? But it is promised in the heading. It does keep one turning the pages. Only to go back to reread. My book is falling apart.

[Jonathan]

I can't get over the great presence of mind shown by Mr Tulkinghorn's friend, when he went to have his hair dressed in anticipation. How very, very saddening. Dickens can wring the tears from ones eyes.

[marcie]

I'm so sorry I jumped the gun on the new section. I'm not sure how I did that. We can still talk about the past section but will continue to discuss chapters  23 to 25 from March 21 through 25.

[Babi]

  Now that you mention it, MARCIE, I believe 'subservient' probably is a bad choice of words.
Even though he is a detective, I suppose his job could include handling certain legalities
for the lawyers. It bothered me that he seemed to be helping Tulkinghorn (I cheerfully
admit to a definite dislike to Tulkinghorn), but I can see that if he had suspicions there
was something amiss in the matter of Nemo, then he could be playing a role to suit his aims.

 By the definition JOANP gave us, this entire book could be considered allegorical, couldn't it?
Chancery on one side, perhaps, with all it represents.  People's very different ideas of charity and
kindness on the other?  But then, allegory isn't necessarily confined to two sides, is it?  Rich and
poor; generous and greedy.  Perhaps the entire book is an allegory on life in England for that
time. Perhaps that's why Dickens thought it his best book.   Just speculating.

[JoanP]

Moat of us have the opposite problem, Marcie - trying to catch up!

I mentioned yesterday that I had given up trying to keep up with the Unsolved Mysteries page - it's in the heading in case you've been checking on me.  However, I AM going to put the question concerning the Allegory in that painting.   I can't get past the question JoanK asked yesterday - is Bleak House an Allegory?  The Roman soldier - why is so carefully described in the painting over Tulkinghorn's office - with peach cheeks and roses?  Is he pointing at Tulkinghorn?  I was intrigued at the idea of Tulkinghorn's concern about his own will.  I never thought of him as a family man - with heirs.   Do you think of a Roman soldier in connection with Roman Law?  I'm just guessing...

In the last installment, we're left with Tulkinghorn's descovery that it was in fact Lady Dedlock at Nemo's burial site - disguised as Hortense's.  How much does Tulkinghorn know about  Nemo's identity?  

So now we've got Hortense presenting herself to Esther, proposing that Esther take her on as a maid.  Can you see Esther with a French maid?  Why does Hortense want this position so badly?  She tells Esther she'll serve her for nothing.  There's got to be a reason, don't you think?  Did someone put her up to it - could it have been Tulkinghorn?   I was cheering for Esther when she turned her down.

Babi - we were posting together - thinking along the same lines regarding Allegory.  I don't like Tulkinghorn either.   If there's anyone here who does, raise your hand.  Well, there is Jonathan.  Dickens has such powers of persuasion - maybe he'll show us another side of Tulkinghorn before long.

[BarbStAubrey]

I think you are so right Babi - this entire story is one big allegory - as to that painting - I have searched and searched - there are several or really many versions of allegory in paintings - there is the allegory of : Theology, Philosophy, Poetry and Jurisprudence - all women - yes, wearing Roman draped clothing - and yes, their headpiece could be called a helmet without it looking as we imagine a helmet should look since a head and hair covering was called a helmet - I get the impression only if made of leather but that is not stated only all the photos do show a flat and head hugging with longer back to the neck leather piece.

I have re-read and re-read the description and where he does give gender when referring to the legs of probably the putti that he calls boys he really does not give a gender to the allegory painted on the ceiling - Dickens earlier mentions both Raphael and Titian -

Raphael does the four that is seen on alter screens and other pieces of art where as Titian does the Allegory of Marriage and his better known Allegory of Time which is three aging heads of the same man with animal heads under that describe his character in youth middle age and old age. Titian also does "Allegory of the Battle of Lepanto" where King Phillip on the day of the winning of the battle is the day his son, the future king, is born and the painting shows both events as an allegory to each other.

Then we have another group of Allegories in Liberal Art - the Allegory of Painting, Poetry, Literature, Rhetoric, Astronomy, Geometry, Arithmetic, Music, Textiles, - another group, the Allegory of dignity, Faith, Fame, an Allegory of Liberty and Reason. An Allegory of Peace and the Arts under the English Crown - Allegory of Wealth, Charity, Arts & Sciences.

These paintings, frescoes, or statuary are not seen with a sword -  The only sword holding Allegories that I have found are the four Cardinal Virtues done by Raphael and other earlier artists example Bartolo in 1414 did a standing male with helmet and sword of both Justice and Magnanimity.  As most paintings of the time they are very stylized without the emotional draw that would lead anyone's eye to think further than what is on the wall or ceiling.

Here is a link the the Allegory to Divine Providence and Barberini Power for a glimpse of the glory of some of these ceiling paintings or frescoes.
http://www.wga.hu/art/p/pietro/cortona/1/barberi0.jpg

Barberini Power is the result of an old 11th century minor noble Tuscan family where in the sixteenth century the family's history turns as two brothers, textile merchants - one has a son who hooks up with the Medici's, moves to Rome and amasses a fortune that buys him many titles including buying an appointment to be a Cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church - after his death one of the nephew using the fortune to buy more influence and finally was elected [ahum] Pope Urban VIII - Oh yes, the son of the one brother who had moved to Room - soon after his moving to Rome the Medici's had his uncle killed - ah so... and yet, from that we have the above painted ceiling done at the epic power of the Barberini family - life and the art it could support, is and was drop-your-jaw-amazing...

Today this ceiling can be seen as the Palazzo is now the Barberini library, a core section of the Vatican's Biblioteca Apostolica.

Also I learned in all this research, that the name of the Allegory is like a puzzle within the painting - take the first letter of what the figures are holding and the color of their clothing or drapery and any other distinctive addition so that these first letters spell out the Allegory.

All that and still no Roman dressed male with peach knees wearing a helmet and sword pointing can I find.
 

[JoanK]

Oh, my. If I had a ceiling like that I would never get any sleep -- I'd be staring at all the little figures 24/4 trying to figure them out. As it is, I wonder .... No, I'm not going to look at it.

My kindle's battery gave out yesterday. Off to read the new section.

[JoanP]

Barbara, I knew you'd go after that Allegory painting, Barbara.  One could write a dissertation on Dickens and the Bleak House Allegory.  Makes you wonder if other novels of his are also allegories, doesn't it?  Fantastic painted ceiling in the link to the Allegory of Divine Providence.  It's how I imagine the ceiling in Tulkinghorn's office.

Jonathan believes the glorious ceiling is lost on Tulkinghorn though.  He doesn't ever look up at it. He's too busy with legal matters - his own, and others.  Just as well; he isn't aware that the Roman soldier's finger is pointed right at him.

Now, isn't it strange, that this new installment brings us right to Richard Carstone's legal studies.  Richard stands to inherit thousands of pounds, but he's burning out as he submerges himself in the Jarndyce case.  I wasn't sure exaclty why he gave up when he did though.  Maybe his billiard debts?  He's got to get out of London.  He will leave off his legal studies and join the army!  What brings this on?  Do you sense any connection between his decision and our recent discussion of the Roman solier on the painted ceiling in Tulkinhorn's law office?

[Jonathan]

That's very interesting information about allegories, Barbara. Obviously a significant art form, and introducing it into the plot of BLEAK HOUSE seems brilliant, whatever its meaning or representation. I was ready to accept it as a contrast to the gloomy atmosphere in Mr Tulkinghorn's chambers. He seems uninfluenced by it. His gloomy thoughts suggest that he fears for his life.

Still thinking about your question, Laura: 'I wonder if there will be further crime(s)?'

And JoanP's: 'Are you expecting a crime?'

I do. Many things point forward to such an event. And listening to Mr George tell it, it will be a pre-meditated crime. Mr Gridley was prepared to commit murder. And with Mlle Hortense reminding Esther of  'some woman from the streets of Paris in the reign of terror', and angrilly talking of making an oath and keeping it faithfully, isn't it time to call in some police protection?

Mr Bucket does have an interesting way of getting cooperation from people he is interested in. Finds in them what he is expecting from them! An arrest comes with an offer of  help. And what about, now you see him, now you don't?

Is Mr Jarndyce worrying that Richard will go the way of Gridley and Miss Flyte?

[marcie]

I'm pretty sure that, Babi, you and the others of you who have posted, are right in classifying Bleak House as an allegory, especially Chancery and all of the false hope and misery it represents to the people and all of the puffed up, grinding away of the legal representatives who are taking away the lives of those for whom they are supposed to provide justice.

Barbara, thank you for all of that interesting information. I think that Dicken's has a very visually as well as aural style of writing. If he includes paintings in his writing, it's likely they are ones that he has seen and which have meaning for him. It's helpful that you've called attention to them. Jonathan, you are right that Tulkinghorn isn't paying attention to the paintings. Maybe he (and we should)!

I wasn't experiencing a lot of foreboding but some of you are convincing me that I should be more watchful for clues about something very bad happening.

JoanP, you mention that Richard stands to inherit thousands of pounds, but he's burning out as he submerges himself in the Jarndyce case. I think he says that he's had quite enough of the law in the tedious work he's done to try to understand the case. I'm afraid that Richard can't stick to anything after his initial pursuit. He's been tainted by the case. It can't bring itself to a conclusion and neither can he.

[marcie]

JoanP, I too am wondering why Hortense offered to work for free. Does must know of Mr. Jarndyce's wealth and may think that eventually he would pay her. She likely would think that she could control Esther since Esther seems very meek. Is she just looking for a good position or is she following her instincts in thinking that Esther may be the key to something important or has someone (Tulkinghorn or Bucket) put her up to it?

[Babi]

 No way to know for sure, JOAN, but that bit about Hortense wanting to be Esther's maid
seemed to me an attempt to find a way to get back at Lady Dedlock. She certainly noticed
Lady D's interest in Esther and she strikes me as a very spiteful, vengeful personality.

 Great post on Allegory, BARB. I read every word. I especially appreciated your point that
the Allegory on Tulkinhorn's ceiling could well have been female, since the ones I was able
to find in a quick search were all female. Now I can stop puzzling over it.

Yes, Richard has once again changed his mind, and now proposes to enter the military. “..in
his usual characteristic way, plunged into a violent course of military study, and got up
at five o’clock every morning to practice the broadsword exercise.”  I wonder how long it
will take him to tire of this enterprise.  As Mr. Jarndyce warned him, however, once in the
military he can’t just decide to walk away.

 Ah, yes, JONATHAN. Our detective is good with people, isn't he? A delicate combination of
cajolery, praise and warning of trouble, and he has people doing exactly what he tells them.
 As for Richard, Mr. Jarndyce isn't the only one worried about where Richard is headed. So
are Esther and Ada,...and me, too, for that matter.

[marcie]

Babi, you say " that bit about Hortense wanting to be Esther's maid
seemed to me an attempt to find a way to get back at Lady Dedlock. " That sounds very likely!

Yes, the main person that I'm worried about is Richard. He is delusional about money. He can mimic others in saying that the Chancery case shouldn't be trusted but he can't relinquish his expectation that he will inherit a great sum and will not have to work. He also seems, a way similar to Skimpole, that by not spending a certain amount of money, he is actually saving it and has it available. No wonder he got himself into debt.

I think you are right that everyone who loves him fears for Richard. Yet, Esther says to him, when Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time?

[Laura]

The best part of reading this book with all of you is the different ways we have of looking at things and the differing opinions that result.  I think it’s great that everyone has different thoughts and ideas.  I can’t wait to hear what everyone thinks of this section of reading because I know I will be enlightened.

Thank you all for the thoughts on allegory.  Fascinating!

There is definitely a mystery in why Hortense offers her services to Esther free of charge, but I can’t figure out why.  I like Babi’s theory.  I don’t blame you for not keeping track of all the mysteries, Joan.  It seems we have more mysteries and few answers.  I can’t help but wonder if Mr. Jarndyce got word of Hortense’s offer to Esther and quickly inserted Charley in the open spot.  It seems too coincidental that right after Hortense’s offer that Mr. Jarndyce decides to help the Smallweeds.  I am glad he did, but it leaves me wondering.

I am worried about Richard.  Using the word Esther did, he can’t seem to “settle.”

I have to read the last chapter of this section now…

[JudeS]

Babi
I wanted to know about Punch and Judy (I know it's a side issue-but still).

Punch and Judy were originally created in Italy in the 14th century. they were called "Comedia del
Arte."  It was a bawdy act for adults.
There were always at least eight chracters:Puncinello (PUnch), Judy (originally Joan or Jean ; a prostitute.), Ghost, Devil, Jim Crow (a black puppet and the origin of the American Jim Crow), the Constable,, the Doctor and the dog named Toby.
The show became popular in the 19th century on the streets of London and attracted children. This forced the performers to change the nature of the show since they wanted the parents to give them coins at the end of the performance.
Judy became Punch's wife and their physical bashing of each other proved a highly successful
attraction.
Undoubtedly Dickens had seen the show many times and incorporated it into Bleak House which contains everything but the kitchen sink. Since there are about another 500 pages to go, the Kitchen sink also has a chance of appearing.

[JoanK]

Just lost a long post. GRRR!

Hortense is " angrilly talking of making an oath and keeping it faithfully". More secrets! Or more likely, more of the same one. Whatever the secret surrounding Lady Dedlock, hortense is involved up to her teath. The traditional enmity between England and France shows up in stock characters like the French servant, sly, untrustworthy, vengful.

[JoanK]

JUDE.  The Punch and Judy information is very interesting! I admit, the snippets of such shows I've seen never made any sense to me. Taste in humor sure changes. I guess I can't fault Dickens for it.

I wonder what Dickens' audience would have known about Punch to fill in the character that we don't.

I couldn't remember who "Charley" was until I used the "search" function on my kindle. She's the little daughter of the debt collector who died. The one who was taking care of her even littler siblings. Every time jarndice sees misery, he does something to relieve it, without any fuss or bother. Clearly Dickens' idea of philanthopy.

How do you like his picture of the two parents being informed of their children's betrothal. Each completely self-involved, each in their own way: one openly and one in the name of philanthropy. Contrasted again with Jarndice' help of Charley. What do you think of this? Why is Dickens criticized for his view of philanthropy?

[Jonathan]

"BLEAK HOUSE, which contains everything but the kitchen sink." I laughed when I read that Jude. And, you say, there is a chance we will get it, with  500 pages to go.

That's what I had the allegory on the ceiling as being. I was tempted to say so. Why does Jobling come on the scene sporting a new moustache, pretending to be very proud of it? As a partial disguise of course; but at the time of writing Dickens himself was growing one and proudly showing it off.

The mystery list is a great idea, JoanP. Very high on my list is - what service has Hortense rendered Mr Tulkinghorn, for which he thanks her. And what is 'this little wager' the two of them have going? Does he now owe her a favour?

We should not allow Dickens to decide who we should like and not like. Mr Turveydrop and Mrs Jellybe may not be ideal parents, but they are both trying so hard to set a good example for the kids.

[JudeS]

When I first saw that ceiling in REAL LIFE in the 1950's I remember my reaction.
Overblown...too much.. show off.
That after visiting Van Gogh Collection in Holland and all the great Michaelangelo statues in Italy.
Obviously my mind can't get around such grandeur. Great beauty can be found in great simplicity.

Dickens of course loves the convuluted, the overly complex.....the many rather than the few.
To those among you who are capable of finding an allegory in that ceiling you are doing great work.  Perhaps Dicken's work. There is still at least half a book to go and much to learn.

I will hold back about the author's intentions till very close to the end.  Dickens is writing for the masses, not for the few. Bleak House may be a Mystery or a Romance or both. But it has to be something that a mass audience can digest and enjoy. The buyers of the papers in which this
story appeared month by month weren't scholars but folks that knew how to read and write and do a bit of arithmetic.They were looking for the excitement that this story provided-
What I found fascinating was how British Social Classes were breaking up:
"..to the whole framework of society receiving cracks in consequence of people (iron-masters,lead-mistresses and what not) not minding their catechisms, and getting out of the station unto which they are called-necessarily and forever...and from that to educating other people out of THEIR stations and obliterating the landmarks, and opening the floodgatess and all the rest of it.'

[marcie]

Laura, I agree with you when you say, " the best part of reading this book with all of you is the different ways we have of looking at things and the differing opinions that result." I'm learning a lot that would have gotten past me without each of you bringing up different points. Speaking of which, Laura, you are right that it seems very coincidental that Charley would appear on the scene as Esther's maid right after she turned Hortense away.

Jude, I love your kitchen sink post. And you are right to remind us that Dickens wrote for the masses. He was very popular and people were waiting anxiously for each installment and talking about it to one another.  It may be that some of the references that are obscure to us, were known by most people during that time. And/or it may be that Dickens provided lots of layers to his novels and individuals could "get" what they could out of it and let the rest glide over their heads. Sort of what I think you were saying, Jonathan, about the painting reference possibly just being a case of including the kitchen sink.

JoanK, re Dicken's views on philanthropy, it's interesting that he makes Mr. Jarndyce go almost overboard in his not wanting any thanks or acknowledgement for the good he does. The other philanthropists that he criticizes go overboard in the other direction, always talking about their works and, perhaps, doing little good.

[BarbStAubrey]

Dickens of course loves the convoluted, the overly complex.....the many rather than the few.

A true man of his time isn't he - I had a grandmother whose living room, when not in use was covered in white linen with newspaper under and on top of all the chair cushions - like the photos of Victorian sitting rooms she had the round marble top table and the glass cover displays and ornate picture frames and a desk with many cubbyholes that contained, to my sister and my delight a large collection of post cards that some you saw through a Stereoscope and other cards had thin paper over the moon or the waves or or other parts of the photo that when the postcard was held up to the light the scene almost appeared real. There were stuffed birds under glass and carpeted foot stools galore and brass spittoons and ivory handled letter openers and ink stands with dip pens some having glass holders for the nubs, blotters and blotters on a rolling devise and and and. Jammed packed with glistening waxed furniture and every table top and wall covered with brick-a-brac, plants and art.  

There was so much in that room that when ever I read Little Women or Jane Austin or the Brontes I imagined my grandmother's front parlor. That is the tradition I imagine for Dickens and so as you say Jude we could  expect nothing less than a Victorian story with many characters, scenes, description -

The Dickens' may not have entertained with formal dinners although, he popularized the Christmas Turkey however, he could write as if he were on paper the host of a Victorian dinner set with full silver place-settings, each utensil having its purpose so that eating a meal like writing a storyline or chapter could take as many as 20 varied pieces each with their own unique shape added to a groaning table of crystal, porcelain, silver and linen overwhelming the senses during a long and decadent evening that will bring closure with cigars and brandy and for the ladies tea and coffee from a silver tea service and paper thin porcelain cups. Yes, I am expecting some paper thin moments of emotion along with some heavy crystal glasses of Malt like heavy going.

Wow Jude so you saw the Allegory to Divine Providence and Barberini Power what a treat - sounds like it was a powerful experience - I am remembering when I was a kid banks and public buildings had huge paintings the width of the wall - I am particularly remembering the bank my mother used was a large room and wrapped around two walls was the larger than life painting of early settlers meeting and exchanging beads at the edge of a river or lake. Included on the wall were Natives stepping out of their canoes - the painting always prompted questions that gave my Mom the opportunity to share some American history -

Today, with such sterile buildings there isn't much to talk about is there. As a kid could you imagine looking up at a ceiling painted with gods and goddesses, clouds and puntii or as Dickens called them, small boys with fat legs. I can imagine the questions flying - who's that and what is she doing and why are the babies carrying flowers and are there really angles in the sky and and and. I love it just thinking back to what it would be like if we were 6, 7, or 8 years old gawking at a ceiling fresco.

[JoanP]

Jonathan, thank you - I totally missed Mr. Tulkinghorn thanking Hortense for her litte service - and their "little wager."  Will put this question that is so very high on your list into the collection of Unsolved Mysteries in the heading right now - along with the one on Allegory.
This wager between Hortense and Mr. T just confirms my suspicion  that Tulinghorn is aware of Esther's importance in the Jarndyce business. - Hortense as Esther's maid - brilliant move on his part.  I'll bet he'd pay her well. (But why, what's in it for him?)  Esther refuses Hortense's offer to serve her without pay.  Who would refuse an offer like that?  It must have stunned Mr.T - who believes that everyone has a price.  Dickens has created a character beyond reproach in Esther.

Marcie, I wondered too why Esther told Richard he has a noble nature.  What does she see in him that we don't?    Maybe this was wishful thinking on her part - trying to make Richard believe in himself?  After reading of Smallweed's money lending-operation, I'm wondering just when Richad's debts will become an object of their interest.  I suppose John Jarndyce is paying off his debts as fast as Richard is piling them up - But why the army?  Is he afraid of something?  -  Or does he just want to see the world.  Ireland.   Perhaps this is the best thing for him -  it might teach him some discipline.  Maybe he'll miss Ada, too.  He doesn't seem to give her much thought.  I think he thinks of her as part of the carefree future, once the case is settled - but not part of his present.  Is this love?

Jude, I believe you put your finger on the reason his readers were so interested in Dickens' stories.  This is not a familiar love story or even an unfamiliar murder mystery to his readers.   - The 1850's were all about social reform - and enormous change.  Dickens is writing of the effect of this change on not just the upper class - but the conditions of the poor and the middle class - and how they were affected by change.  I wonder if others were writing about these conditions at the time.  No wonder there were avid readers as each Installment was published!

Loved your post, Barb!  Brought me back to my grandmother's parlor.  Those stuffed birds under glass!  I wonder what happened to them.  I wonder why they were so popular?  

[Babi]

"Mr Jarndyce decides to help the Smallweeds."? 

I don't remember that, LAURA; could you please remind me. I so dislike the Smallweeds I hate the idea of Mr. Jarndyce thinking he should help them. No doubt very small-minded of me.

 So that's where 'Jim Crow' came from, JUDE?  I never knew. How interesting. If we don't
actually get a kitchen sink, we undoubtedly have servants who shiver while scrubbing pans.
I was reminded of that poor servant of the Snagsby's...what was her name?

 Who was criticizing Dickens for his views of philanthropy, JOANK? Did I miss something?

 JONATHAN, Hortense, wearing one of Lady Dedlock's dresses, was the woman Tulkinghorn used
to question the boy Jo. He was suspicious of Lady Dedlock, and paid Hortense to stage that
charade. I wouldn't think he owers her a favor, since she was paid, but Hortense might very
well think differently.
 

[JoanP]

hahaha...isn't this wonderful?  We are reading the same pages - and coming up with such different understanding of what we read - such is Dickens' power of suggestion.  It's a good thing we can talk these things out - not to mention, reread!

"Hortense, wearing one of Lady Dedlock's dresses, was the woman Tulkinghorn used
to question the boy"  Really, H. was wearing one of Lady Dedlock's dresses?  I've got to go back to reread that section.  I must have been dozing off - it wouldn't be the first time...

I love to reread these  scenes.  In Chapter XXII, as Jo enters Tulkinghorn's study, he starts when he sees "the lady."  This lady is closely veiled...Bucket asks Jo how he knows the figure to be a lady.  Jo says he recognizes "the wale (?), the bottet and the gownd."  But there are no rings when she takes off her gloves.  Isn't this  Hortense, wearing her own clothes?  Those that Lady Dedlock had borrowed when she spoke to Jo?

Off to add questions to the Unsolved Mysteries - do you have any that you'd like added?  It will be interesting at the end to give Mr. Dickens a test to see if he has answered all of our UNSOLVED MYSTERIES .