Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online

[JoanP]

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Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens

                   

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator. The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket. Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending. The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.

the visit to the Brickmaker's  (click to enlarge)

INSTALMENT III IV

DATE of PUBLICATION    May 1852 June 1852

CHAPTERS   8-10   11-13

DISCUSSION DATES  Feb.25-29  Mar.1-5

in re Guppy Extraordinary Proceedings (click to enlarge)

               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge. Chapter VIII 1. Why is the chapter titled "Covering a Multitude of Sins" 2. In this chapter, Dickens switches from one great house to another (From Chesney Wolds to Bleak House) and from one housekeeper to another (Mrs Roundtree to Esther). What differences and similarities do you see? 3. Do you have a "growlery? Would you like one? What do you do when the wind is from the East? Are you involved in any "wiglomeration"? 4. Why does Esther say "I have nothing to ask you, nothing in the world"? What does that say about Esther, Mr. Jarndice? Chapter IX 5. Why is this chapter called "Signs and Tokens"? What are the signs? 6. Here Dickens continues his parody of philanthropists. Yet Dickens has been criticized for implying that philanthropy is the answer to the problems of the poor. Can we tell what Dickens' own version of what philanthropy should be from his descriptions of Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle? How do the two differ? How the same? 7. At the end of the chapter, Esther says she "felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden" Why "coarsely touched"? What does she mean?  Chapter X 8. Here we get more new characters, and revisit some. Do you enjoy these characters or is it too much? What is he doing with them? 9. Why do you think Dickens introduces Nemo(no one)? 10. Of all the minor characters  in these three chapters, which did you think were the most interesting? Which the least?They are: Mrs Roundtree, Mrs. Paridiggle, the bricklayer, his family, and neighbors, Mr. Boythorn, Mr. Guppy, Mr Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby, Guster, Nemo (no one), and whoever I forgot

 

Related Links:
 Characters in Bleak House by Groups;  Map of London  1851 (double click)  

                                                  

Bleak House  "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[PatH]

Yes he does have a sense of money, Jude.  I think he is not simple in the sense of stupid, but simple or childish in the sense of having no sense of responsibility or interest in anything practical and lacking a sort of moral sense that tells you what is reasonable.

He has children too--between 6 and 12, and he "has never looked after them"; they have "tumbled up somehow or other".

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes  PatH, I like that definition the best - childlike in not taking on the responsibilities we think says you are an adult and yet, he does not seem to be a layabout either. He does serve some valuable function.

Whoa Chapter VII - every paragraph builds intrigue and mystery - it is as if we have a Gothic Novel on our hands - Thanks, was it Booked who linked and told us of Tom Watts - using the name added to the description of this darkened house empty of its owners - even Rosa's shy ways is not enough to raise the chapter from a moldy dark gray stage set. My imagination pictured it as if there was black oil dripping like frosting over the entire of Chesney Wold.

I love his dry sense of humor - the pigeons who ... seem to be always consulting- So the mastiff, dozing ... where he sits on end, panting and growling short, and very much wanting something to worry besides himself and his chain.The turkey in the poultry-yard, always troubled with a class-grievance (probably Christmas)-

Then look how within the first few paragraphs he sets up the chapter to expect further mystery and a ghost story - Be this as it may, there is not much fancy otherwise stirring at Chesney Wold. If there be a little at any odd moment, it goes, like a little noise in that old echoing place, a long way and usually leads off to ghosts and mystery.

The images Dickens is using to tell this story are wonderful so that now I am on the prowl - just as Fog has been mentioned have you noticed there is a lot of slipping and sliding usually in mud - even in London the folks walking on the street - everyone seems to be watching where they step as if they are all thinking they are going to go bump, bump, bump, head hitting the stairs on the way down. Down to what - we are still not cued into the mystery - only that the story so far shows mystery.

In chapter VII we have more mystery about Lady Deadlock and yet, I keep thinking of how the only order and calmness in the story surrounds Esther - I wonder if we are seeing bits of the puzzle here and these two are the protagonist because up till now I cannot tell who is the protagonist in this story.

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the reminder, Jude. I have The Gathering somewhere in the house. I've been meaning to read it. Of course you're right about the plight of the Jellybe children. The pitiable child shows up so often in Dickens' tales. Sometimes it seems he never really got over his own childhood. He seemed to feel the pain and sorrows of all neglected kids.

[JoanK]

"Since it seems Dickens father spent some time if jail for debt, and was described as 'irresponsible,  I assumed Skimpole was based to some degree on him.  In the father's defense, tho', I would add that after he was freed, he was responsible enough to insist his son
be able to finish his education"

I've always been interested in spendthrifts, which Dickens' father was, and one surprising characteristic that they all seem to have is that they are very generous. It is part of the unreal way they look at money: it doesn't matter if they give away all they have today, there will always be more tomorrow from somewhere. When tomorrow comes, and there isn't any, it doesn't matter, they can always borrow. When they say they will pay it back, they aren't lying -- they really believe in this fuzazy tomorrow when they will have money.

Dickens is always very aware of how people spend money: we'll get another example next chapter. Money is fascinating to me, too: Money and Time. They would seem to be, in reality, matters of cold hard fact, but psychologically, they are the most obscure.

[BarbStAubrey]

Jude I read The Gathering and loved it - what a writer - she is an example of why I am partial to Irish authors. We seem to be so inundated with confessional stories that are based in our desire to as Tillich puts it, "the holiness of "ought to be"" that he associates with the moral element in humanist faith with its progressive and and utopian elements. Standing along side he explains, creating the tensions and struggles within communities is the "holy here and now" consecrating place and reality - the law of "being". In other words what is is...

I am thinking there are many ways to look at that chapter and probably as many ways as there are readers and readers life experiences - I do not think we have to agree - we can learn of other view points and even discover a nuance that we had not thought of - sure a moral loving life is an ideal but so is seeing the positives within reality.

In today's world we want to see children physically nurtured but then we seldom see families of 10 or more children - and very few children have the opportunity any longer to walk safely miles away searching for an Esther as did Peepy and yet, I remember even when I was a child starting in third grade, walking to three separate Parish Churches miles apart with my friends on Good Friday, walking regularly with my sister in the summer at age 8 she being 5 and half to swim at a beach 2 miles from the house.

My best friend Theresa was one of 21 children in a 2 bedroom house, [bunk beds in boys room and girls room] my friend across the street lived next door to her cousins and they all ate on a plank table under a grape arbor so that no adult ever knew how many or what kids were eating.  How we observe others and call it neglect is coming from our perception as in the story it came from Richards perception - we can even wonder, since Dickens was having marital problems was this a statement to judge ineffective his wife since together they had 10 children.

My thought is rather than seeing this chapter as a moral issue or a comment on a mother's role [hmm how about a father's role] anyhow, it has to be in the story for a reason - not just to make us blanch - it has to be a metaphor to the story or it would not be there - this is a professional writer who knows his craft and the instances of these first chapters must be part of the overall - not only leading like a trail to the crux of the story but each sentence and incident, chapter is bolstering the crux of this story.

We could read this sorting character as if we were making an early silent film - the white hats and the black hats, or we could read this as if every character is part of the thesis of this story rather than, in themselves if they are good or bad in our eyes - we can decide if this is a morality versus a reality story. Books like The Gathering were not written even in the mid twentieth century - of all the nineteenth century authors Dickens of all people would be conscious of morality and yet, he is the story teller and decided that chapter was making a statement to further the crux of his novel.

[salan]

This schedule is perfect for me.  There is so much to absorb and keep track of that if I read any quicker; I would probably get frustrated and give up. 
I like the idea of a list of unsolved mysteries.  The first one for me would be Mr. Jarndyce's connection to all of these characters.

Sally

[JudeS]

Barb
I really thought about what you said and began wondering why Dickens indeed put in the part about the Jellyby children.
Perhaps they will reappear later in the story or perhaps he is indeed reliving some dark days of his own.
Probably I'll never know.
Yes , I too knew , in my childhood, very large families where things went fine when the older children took over the tasks of parenthood.My two best friends Jane and Eugene were members of such a family. All was fine untill their three year old brother caught his head behind the pipe in the bathroom and died. I think the Jellyby story brought the horror of that moment back to me.
Sorry for bothering you all with this.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch Jude - sorry that is a lot of sadness and 'if only's' to carry around - and yes, we both can swap horror stories - in today's world 7 years of therapy to get past a lot of what happened - so I can appreciate how easily a memory button is triggered - it is difficult for anyone to be sensitive to our history - onward - yes, there must be a reason to the story why that chapter other than life ought to be different or better or whatever would make us feel more comfortable.

[PatH]

Laura explained a major inspiration for the Jellyby family:

My B&N edition contains an endnote on Dicken’s inspiration for Mrs. Jellyby:

Dicken’s held the original of this character, the philanthropist Caroline Chisholm (1808-1877), in high regard, and he supported her schemes to assist the poor who wished to emigrate.  He took a very different view of Chisholm’s own domestic arrangements, however, and was appalled, in particular, by the unkempt condition of her children.

I don’t know if and how we will read more of Mrs. Jellyby in the novel, but I found this endnote useful for understanding why she may have been put in the book --- as a commentary on Caroline Chisholm and her decisions about work and family choices.

Here is a Wikipedia link about Caroline Chisholm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Chisholm

It's not a fair likeness--I bet Chisholm's children weren't as extreme, and her work was far from frivolous.  Because of it, Chisholm was proposed for Sainthood.

[rosemarykaye]

My mother is the youngest of five children - her family was very poor indeed, and she was largely brought up by her oldest sister.  Her own mother was always out working in very menial jobs to try to feed the family.  Although I am fairly sure that the workhouse no longer existed by then, my grandmother was terrified of it to her dying day.  We worry now about our pensions and the value of our houses, but for them in those days it was just a matter of getting from one day to the next without being evicted.  My mother remembers being constantly hungry in her childhood, and always out on the street (with all the other children from the road) because being indoors meant more work for her mother. 

My mother has scars on her legs from falling against the 'copper' (wash boiler) as a young child - it as impossible for my grandmother to supervise them all, work, and deal with her feckless husband.  I think this is why my mother had so much difficulty in coming to terms with my having more than one child.

I do appreciate, however, that Mrs Jellyby is different - it's not poverty with her.

[JoanP]

Sally, let's do that - start a list of the unsolved mysteries in Bleak House - yours will go first on the list - "What is  Mr. Jarndyce's connection to all of these characters?  As benevolent a character, as kind, patient and understanding - and generous, I can't help wonder about his motives.  I guess I wonder about the motives of all these philanthropists - are they just too good to be true?
How about the rest of you?  Questions for the unsolved mystery list?

While on the subject of lists, is there anyone else who is unable to open the link to the list of Characters in the heading? This one -    Characters in Bleak House by Groups;
  I am puzzled why some can open the link and some can't, but we can always post the list here for you to copy so you don't have to go to other sites where so many spoilers are included...

I'm glad to know the pace is working for you.  Poor Deb's been trying to read a chapter a day...rather than three chapters every five days.  I'm glad that's cleared up now. We would have lost you in the dust, Deb!   Keep an eye on the discussion schedule in the heading and you won't get overwhelmed with keeping up - or getting ahead of the rest of us!  
 
Tomorrow we will begin to talk about the THIRD Instalment, which included Chapters VIII, IX and X when first published.

[JoanP]

Characters in Charles Dickens' Bleak House by Group

 Sir Leicester Dedlock & Lady Honoria Dedlock
    Volumnia Dedlock, cousin, a lady of 60.
Mrs. Rouncewell, housekeeper
          Mr. Rouncewell, eldest son and ironmaster.
          George Rouncewell, son, owner of a shooting gallery
          Watt Rouncewell, grandson
          Phil Squod, employer by Mr. George
Mademoiselle Hortense, Lady Dedlock's waiting-woman
Right Hon. William Buffey, MP, friend of Sir Leicester
Mr. Tulkinghorn, solicitor of the Court of Chancery and legal advisor to Dedlock
Mercury, footman


John Jarndyce, upright, handsome unmarried man of about 60
    Richard Carstone, ward of Jarndyce, and a suitor in chancery.
    Ida Clare, ward, and also a suitor in chancery.
    Esther Summerson, protege of Mr. Jarndyce, a 'prudent and wise woman'
    Lawrence Boythorn, friend of Mr. Jarndyce
    Harold Skimpole, permanent resident at Bleak House
    Mr. Vholes, Richard Carstone's solicitor.


Mr. Kenge, senior member of Kenge and Carboy, solicitors.
    William Guppy, lawyer's clerk employed by Kenge & Carboy.
    Tony Jobling (Weevle) law-writer and friend of Guppy.


Mrs. Jellyby, devoted to causes and projects
Mr. Jellyby, fading into the background
    Carolyn Jellyby, eldest daughter


Mr. Turveydrop, of celebrated deportment
    Prince Turveydrop, his son.


Allen Woodcourt, a young surgeon
Mrs. Woodcourt, his mother


Mr. Bayham Badger, medical practitioner in London
    Mrs. Badger, a middle-aged lady with youthful wardrobe
    Malta and Quebec Badger, daughters


Mr. Krook, merchant of rags, bottles and marine stores
    Miss Flite, a suitor in chancery, roomer of Mr. Krook
    Captain Hawden, former military officer, law-writer, also renting from Mr. Krook


Mr. and Mrs. Snagsby, law stationers
    Guster, maidservant


Mrs. Pardiggle, a woman of causes, much like Mrs. Jellyby
    Mr. Pardiggle, very retiring


Grandfather and Grandmother Smallweed
    Bartholomew Smallweed, grandson
    Judy Smallweek, granddaughter


Mr. Detective Bucket, detective officer
Mrs. Bucket, his acute wife


Matthew Bagnet, ex-artilleryman and bassoon player
Mrs. Bagnet, his wife
Woolwich Bagnet, his son


The Rev. Mr. Chadband, of no particular denomination
    Mrs. Chadband


(Assorted individuals)
Mr. Gridley, of Shropshire, a ruined suitor in Chancery
Jo, (Toughey) a street corner sweeper
Little Swills, comic vocalist
Charlotte Neckett, self-reliant, daughter of a sheriff's officer
Jenny and Liz, brickmaker's wives

[JoanP]

 

"I do appreciate, however, that Mrs Jellyby is different - it's not poverty with her"

Rosemary - what is it with Mrs. Jellyby?  Is there really that much of a difference between her children and those who suffer poverty?

Barbara suggests Dickens may be commenting on the role of the father as well as mothers with the Jellyby family.   I keep looking for the men, for the fathers of these children.  How do you see Mr. Jellyby?  At least he is there, but he doesn't seem to contribute to the well being of his family in any way, does he?

PatH reminds us that Skimpole has a whole brood of children - somewhere, trying to get along without him.  It occurred to me that those Jellyby childen were his...that dispassionate Mr. Jellyby wasn't really their father. Jarndyce seemed to bring up the Jellyby children in his presence - more than once.  Where are the Skimpole children?  Do you think we'll meet them? 

Is Dickens writing as much about the role of fathers in this story as about mothers?

[nancymc]

I feel I must stand up for Mr. Jellyby, Miss Jellyby says "As to Pa, he gets what he can, and goes to the office.  He never has what you might call a regular breakfast.   Poor Mr. Jellyby he obviously worked hard in the office to provide money for food and for all that paper that Mrs. Jellyby used to send letters, I wonder are they hand delivered or sent by post.   It is all very well to be critical of him but he was a man of his time and men earned the money and women looked after the home.     By the way he cowers in the corner he may be an abused husband, have pity on him!   Charles Dickens may be saying "I work hard writing my books am I expected to look after my ten children as well".

[PatH]

I'm hoping we'll see more of Mr. Jellyby and get a better notion of what he's like.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear Joan you may be sorry you asked - this could become a philosophical discussion on what is work - some work hard and get paid others because of gender work hard and do not get paid - regardless if we think Mrs. Jellyby should be working hard at other tasks you have to consider Caddy who works hard and does not get paid -

Many of us have worked in an office and know that some work hard and some do not but if you remember as a kid anyone that worked outside the house was labeled and thought of as a hard worker - considering Day Care Centers today, 10 children would not be the charge of one worker - 8 tops - plus - remember how exhausted we were after having a baby - I remember the work I did to have the house scrubbed down top to bottom with all laundry completed and meals in the freezer so I could have a few weeks to enjoy my third Baby. My other two were ages 5 and 6 with the 6 year old having started school and this was still exhausting but possible - I could not have done all that if I had a 3 or 4 year old who needed my attention.

When you think about it there are as many children who have a similar existence to the Jellyby children with only one or two in the family - I also have a few friends today who I have known and volunteered with on various Boards here in Austin whose homes were always higgly piggly - Volunteering as we did yes, we had help but not the kind that went to the local bar as Mrs. Jellyby's cook or was as incompetent as Priscilla seems to be.

I have one friend in particular whose children seemed almost on their own, the son in and out of trouble never graduated from High School - however, today he has his Doctor of Physics, married with two college attending daughters and his wife has a Masters in Physics, and my friend's Daughter is a very successful Attorney whose clients are mostly in the computer industry - my friend's house is still higgly piggly and she is still working hard at volunteer activities, now for the aged.

We really have no idea the future of Mrs. Jellyby's children anymore than we really know the cause of discombobulated life. Since Mrs. Jellyby cannot keep her hair combed she may be suffering from depression or any number of things -  even with depression often folks get wound up in activities that seem off and not handling the current or important situation - Heck she could just to the adult child of an alcoholic - her behavior would match.

Caddy is a very young teen - we all know most kids that age only find fault with their mother and Richard is a man who has no clue what a women is capable of and how having babies wears you out - plus - why is the help so incompetent - is that typical of the help available -

There does not seem to be any other family to help Mrs. Jellyby sort out her help, her home, her children or her appearance and yet, she has a good heart - an enormous heart or else, she would not have 10 children nor, be concerned for humanity - it just appears she would have been better off as the one going to the office - or teaching in a girls school how to write and about other cultures - those are her skills - not caring for children.

Bottom line we have no idea if she never sent out another letter or informed herself of another day in Africa if she could pull the household and her children together so they could attend the kind of school that Caddy dreams for herself. We have no clue the income of Mr. Jellyby if it could afford more - remember Cratchit, he worked hard and they were still poor.

Now if Mrs. Jellyby had money she would have a staff taking care of the children and be off to probably Africa rather than Paris as Lady Deadlock who has no children - I am ready to see what happens in this story - if the Jellyby's come into the picture again or, if other families with children come into the picture - we already know, explained in chapter VII that if you work in a big house and your child is unruly in order to keep your job, like Tom, your child is sent away.

In fact, that could be where Richard is coming from - he may have ideas of what it should be like to live in a home with parents and is measuring Mrs. Jellyby to his fantasy - I must say it is rude of him to accept her hospitality and not chip in plus to find fault - wow. 

As to Dickens being disenchanted with someone he uses as a prototype - I am wondering how that fits since the author needs characters with certain characteristics in order to tell the story and so he would be shooting a gift horse in the mouth - for me it is back to the story to see how this all fits.

[Laura]

Here are a few more mysteries to add to the ongoing list:

What was in the document that Mr. Tulkinghorn was reading, while Mr. Dedlock was dozing, that made Lady Dedlock faint?
What wrong did Esther’s mother do to Esther’s godmother? 
Who is the lady who addressed Esther, Ada, and Richard when they were waiting outside, claiming she would “confer estates on both,” the one who lives above Mr. Krook's shop?

[Laura]

8. Is it just a coincidence that Guppy, a clerk at Kenge and Carboy, visits the Dedlock’s country home?  He feels he recognizes Lady Dedlock’s portrait.  What do you think is the significance of this?

We have not addressed this question yet.  I do not think it is just a coincidence that Guppy visits the Dedlock's country home.  After all, he does recognize Lady Dedlock's portrait.  Maybe Dickens intended it as a coincidence and wants us to believe it is a coincidence, but he will tie the visit into the story somehow.  Then again, maybe it is a red herring.  Is that the right time for a clue that seems to be a clue, but is not really?

[BarbStAubrey]

More questions - if Krook cannot read than why does he horde documents especially legal documents - who is Nemo - how are Ada, Richard and Esther related other than involved with Jarndyce and Jarndyce - what does spontaneous combustion have to do with the story - where is Mrs. Rouncewell missing oldest son - How does the law office dealing with Jarndyce know Mrs. Jellyby and why do they choose her home as a place for Ada, Richard and Esther to spend the night - why does Mr. Jarndyce give the household keys to Esther within the first day of meeting her - did he not have a housekeeper or is this elevating Esther to be the mistress of his house and if so why?

[JoanK]

I wondered about giving Esther the keys, too. And we have yet to tie the Dedlocks into the story, except by this mysterious letter.

The plot thickens in the next segment, at least to the extent of getting lots more characters! We start on Chapters 8-10 tomorrow, but I've put the new questions in the heading today. Don't faint, when you see the list of characters: Dickens is marshalling his forces, ready for the rest of the book.

[PatH]

The previous questions are still at the top of page 3, if anyone needs to refer to them.

[Jonathan]

Guppy's astonishment - I've seen that face! - strikes me as a good mystery. What has he been observing in his other appearances?

I didn't see a mystery in the document that Tulkinghorn was reading. Wasn't Lady D alarmed at the document he put down where she could easily read it to relieve her boredom?

Nancy, I like it that you are standing up for Mrs. Jellybe. And Barb has to admit that she is a gift for the author in search of characters. I still think that the Jellybe scene is as much about Esther as it is about anyone else. She has been given the keys to everything locked up in Bleak House. She would also like to be our eyes and ears. She is a better do-gooder than anyone else. Just don't invite her into your home. She comes looking for dust and other housekeeping and parenting faults.

[BarbStAubrey]

 

[PatH]

I don’t suppose we need to know the historical background of the Dedlock family ghost to make sense of her role in the story, but it adds a bit of colorfulness, so here are the results of my quick refresher course via the Columbia Encyclopedia.  Those of you who know more than I, please forgive my simplistic explanation and feel free to correct any errors.

The basis of the English Civil War was a power struggle between Charles I and Parliament, Charles insisting on his divine right to do whatever he wanted to, and Parliament insisting on some rights and privileges and pressing for a number of necessary reforms.  Each side had good weapons: Parliament could refuse to grant funds to Charles, but Charles could dissolve Parliament.  The struggle went on for some time, alternating between calling and dissolving Parliament, ruling without funds and trying to get money from somewhere.  Eventually the situation deteriorated into warfare, and Charles was finally defeated, captured, and beheaded in 1649.

The sides tended to be lined up both by class and religion.  Parliament had a large middle class component of country gentry and merchants, who tended to side with the roundheads, while most of the nobility sided with Charles.  And the Puritans and some other Protestant sects were roundheads, while the Anglicans tended to be royalists.

The whole thing was colorful and full of romantic battles, and feelings ran very high on both sides.  (Mrs. Rouncewell still refers to Charles as the blessed martyr.)  You can easily understand how the difference in sides led to conflict and ultimately hatred between Sir Morbury and his wife.  The fact that she was against Charles might be a hint that she was of a lower class than her husband.  In this respect she would be like the current Lady Dedlock: “A whisper still goes about, that she had not even family; howbeit, Sir Leicester had so much family that perhaps he had enough, and could dispense with any more.”

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat wasn't the wife of Charles the First from France and a Catholic - something about he was supposed to convert and only converted on his death bed - without doing research I am not sure how that all fits but it seems to me his Catholic connection was involved somehow.

I guess that was why Dickens had to have Lady Deadlock spend time in Paris to increase the connection between her and the wife of Charles I.

[JoanP]

Have done a bit of the preliminary work getting up a list of unsolved mysteries relating to Bleak House.  Hopefully the finished list will be ready in the morning.  Maybe I shouldn't say "finished"  because the plan is to keep adding to it as we go along...and also abbreviating it as the mysteries are solved.

What strikes me about your questions - I thought they'd all focus around Esther - but I was wrong.  Most questions center on John Jarndyce.  I'm going to confess that I think he's just too good to be true.  If he were one of Dickens' women, then I'd think better of him.  But he's not!  To me he's the type Dickens likes to use for deception. The least expected.  Maybe I'm too suspicous.  The protegees Jarndyce is  taking on all seem to be associated with the Jarndyce  case in some way, though  Skimpole's relationship with Jarndyce remains a mystery for the mystery list.   And then there's  Lady Dedlock and the family ghost...what is the relationship to Jarndyce?

Before we move on to the next installment, I would like to thank you, Barbara, for bringing us samples of Dickens' use of setting and description to tell the story.  Promise to keep it up?  It is so important and yet easy read through for the overall impression, without heading Dickens' art.

[Babi]

 I think Barbara is right, JOANP. We seem to see a pattern of dominant women=passive
men. Mr. Jellyby is simply overwhelmed. He has no influence with his wife and can
hardly be expected to handle the household and all the children. We have met Mr. &
Mrs. Snagsby also. He handles the technical side of the business, but otherwise his
wife runs things. He is somewhat timid and fearful of her. We will probably meet some
more variations on this theme.

 Given the times, LAURA, when Esther's godmother tells her that she is her mother's
disgrace, and her mother is hers, I must assume that she was born out of wedlock.
Since her godmother takes it so personally, I am guessing she is related and feels
that she has sacrificed her life for someone else's wrongdoing.

 Ada and Richard are cousins, BARB. Esther does not seem to be related to them; she
is simply a protege that Jarndyce highly approves and has chosen to be Ada's companion.
He has followed Esther's development as she grew up, and is greatly pleased with her.
She has already shown herself capable in house management at her previous home. It's
not unreasonable that he would put her in charge of his.  My take on Mr. Jarndyce...I think
he is the genuine article.  His reactions to bad situations/people is so instinctive. The wind is
in the East!

 Speaking of the tenor of the times, I must refer to Lord Dedlock.  I do appreciate these lines:
 “The present representative of the Dedlocks is an excellent master.  He supposes all his dependants to be utterly bereft of individual characters, intentions, or opinions, and is persuaded that he was born to supersede the necessity of their having any.  If he were to make a discovery to the contrary, he would be simply stunned--would never recover himself, most likely, except to gasp and die.  But he is an excellent master still, holding it a part of his state to be so.” 
 Actually, you know, that latter bit speaks well of him.  So many masters behaved as though they were the only ones whose well-being and satisfaction mattered.

[JudeS]

Babi
What does Dickens really think of the Dedlocks when he writes about them:
"There is no end to Dedlock;whose family greatness seems to consist of their never having done anything to distinguish themselves for 700 years."

Perhaps in their world never having done anything at all is better than doing something bad.
I thought it was a disparaging remark but then again it may not be.

Another remark about class distinctions is the following about the housekeeper:
"Mrs Rouncewell holds no opinion because she considers that a family of such antiquity has a right to a ghost, as one of the priviledges of the upper class, a genteel distintion to which the common people have no claim".

[PatH]

Pat wasn't the wife of Charles the First from France and a Catholic - something about he was supposed to convert and only converted on his death bed - without doing research I am not sure how that all fits but it seems to me his Catholic connection was involved somehow.

Aaaak!  I had almost finished a long reply this morning, when my computer acted up, turned off, and I lost the post.  I had to let it sulk for a while before trying again.

You’re right, Barb, Charles married Henrietta Maria, sister of Louis XIII of France.  Although she was loyal to her husband, (and Charles couldn’t mess with England’s religion) the people disliked and distrusted her.  She didn’t help matters by a number of schemes and plots with rulers of other nations and the Pope.  (One of the ways Charles could get money was by making deals with other rulers, often by promising things the British public wouldn’t approve of.)This was indeed a big factor in the dissatisfaction leading up to war.

The whole story is infinitely complicated, fascinating, and romantic.  If you ever read Twenty Years After, the sequel to the Three Musketeers, you will remember the historically wildly inaccurate account of Charles’ last days, involving a failed plot to save him, ending with the musketeers hiding under the scaffold during the execution, and Athos saturating his handkerchief with the royal blood, and taking this sacred relic back to Henrietta Maria in France.

All the reforms were badly needed, but I kind of like the description in 1066 and All That of the Roundheads as “right but repulsive” and the Cavaliers as “wrong but wromantic”.

[Jonathan]

'If he (Sir Leicester) were to make a discovery to the contrary, he would be simply stunned--would never recover himself, most likely, except to gasp and die.'

Good quote, Babi. Hopefully nothing will happen to upset Lord Dedlock's comfortable life. But there it is. The author has put that possibility into our minds. In fact, after a hundred pages my mind is so cluttered with Dickensian possibilities, as well as realities, that I feel like Mr. Jarndyce who is constantly alert to how the wind is blowing. Wiglomeration does that to one. At times I feel that Dickens is harder on lawyers than he is on philanthropists.

What is the difference between Mrs. Jellybe and Mrs. Pardiggle? Haha. Mrs. P makes house calls. Mrs. J has mailing lists. They both leave a lot of disorder in their wakes. Whose children are happier. Hard to say. Imagine a five year old, swearing off tobacco for the rest of his life!

Funny, too, is the author imagining the two husbands comparing notes. He leaves it to the reader's imagination.

And then there is Esther. What has she been up to deserve all those names? Little Old Woman. Cobweb. Mrs. Shipton (a 15c Yorkshire witch). Dame Durden (a comic street-song character). And so many names of that sort. So much has happened to her since her 'doll days'.

[Laura]

 Given the times, LAURA, when Esther's godmother tells her that she is her mother's
disgrace, and her mother is hers, I must assume that she was born out of wedlock.
Since her godmother takes it so personally, I am guessing she is related and feels
that she has sacrificed her life for someone else's wrongdoing.

I agree with everything you say here, Babi.  The missing bit of information is who Esther's father is.  Maybe that should be the mystery listed on our list --- Who is Esther's father?

[Laura]

This section of reading provided new characters and some new tidbits of information, but I still have no idea where all this is leading! That’s OK.  We’ve got a long way to go yet.

1. Why is the chapter titled "Covering a Multitude of Sins"

I felt that Mrs. Pardiggle’s interest in charitable works was not genuine.  I felt that it was for show.  Clearly her boys who were old enough to understand that their allowances were never theirs in the first place, but were donations she forced the boys to make, were angry.  They felt their money was essentially being stolen from them by their mother and donated to charity. 

Because I don’t believe Mrs. Pardiggle’s charitable works genuinely come from her heart, I think she must have another motive for doing them.  The title implies that she is covering a multitude of sins with her charitable work.  I don’t know if she has something specific in her past that she is atoning for, or if she feels guilty for her position in life/society.  I didn’t pick up any specific evidence from the reading, but just had an overall feeling about her.

[JoanP]

Dickens' world, his cast of characters seems to be burgeoning out of control...almost.  I agree with you, Pedln, our appreciation of this novel is dependent to a large extent on the contributions from all of you.  I can't imagine getting near so much out of this book reading it on my own.  I'm reminded that each of these instalments was probably enjoyed in family circles - read out loud to the assembled - probably with comments similar to those here.

Pat's information on the conflict and ultimately hatred between Sir Morbury Leicester and his wife helps us to understand how tenuous is the relationship between the present Lady Dedlock and her husband.
 
The implications are there - There's something in Lady D's past that will bring disgrace on the Leicester name.  From JBabi's reading - "If he (Sir Leicester) were to make a discovery to the contrary, he would be simply stunned--would never recover himself, most likely, except to gasp and die.'  

The ghost on the terrace at Chesney Wold has been waiting for just such a thing to happen - disgrace to the Leicester name."  It's surprising that nothing has happened for the last two centuries to bring down the Leicester reputation, isn't it?
As Jude points out -  "Perhaps in their world never having done anything at all is better than doing something bad."  

Does anyone here have any doubt that Lady D. is Esther's mother?  Shall we proceed on that assumption?  The question - who is Esther's father will go right on the list now, Laura!  Are any of the other characters we've met related to Esther?  Siblings, perhaps?

[JoanP]

One more thought about Mr. Guppy's visit to Chesney Wold...before his visit to Bleak House.  One question in my mind hasbeen the location of Bleak House.  In the very beginning I thought that was the name of Lady Delock's home in Lincolnshire.  Did you notice that Bleak House is only 10 miles from the Dedlock's place?

Do you remember WHY Mr. Guppy stopped here?   He had no business with the Dedlocks, did he?  That was an important moment during the house tour.  I found this drawing of the drawing room at Chesney Wold - the room with Lady Dedlock's portrait.  Do you see it?

Sunset in the long drawing-room at Chesney Wold by Phiz (Halbot K. Browne). Illustration for Charles Dickens's Bleak House, 1853. Preparatory drawing [compare another drawing]. Source: Steig, plate 6. Beinecke Library, Yale University. [Return to text of Steig.] Image scan and text by Philip V. Allingham

We'll learn more about Mr. Guppy in the present discussion of Instalment III that will get us closer to the truth about that portrait...but I had the thought that Guppy from the moment he lays eyes on it - either recognizes the resemblance between Esther and Lady Dedlock - or he's seen something else that connects that painting to Esther.  I don't believe that Mr. Guppy has come to woo Esther because he was overwhelmed by her beauty during their brief meeting at the Chancery.

[JoanK]

JoanP: " It is so important and yet easy read through for the overall impression, without heading Dickens' art."

So true, JoanP. And his little phrases: just reading through the comments this morning, so many delicious little barbs.

He digs at everyone (an equal opportunity sneerer, a friend of mine would say), but when he comes to lawyers, he really goes on another level! I assume this was written shortly after his suit in court.

Jonathan: (on Esther) " Just don't invite her into your home. She comes looking for dust and other housekeeping and parenting faults."

I hadn't noticed, and that's an important point! She is endlessly sympathetic to anyone who is helpless, but very hard on anyone who isn't. Is this a mirror of Dickens' attitude?

[JoanP]

"What is the difference between Mrs. Jellybe and Mrs. Pardiggle? Haha. Mrs. P makes house calls. Mrs. J has mailing lists."

 That's funny, Jonathan! I'd rather the mail, than those visits.

A good observation, JoanK! " Is this a mirror of Dickens' attitude?"  Hmm, will have to think about that one.

  Laura, I'm curious to see if your theory is true.  What is Mrs. Pardiggle's motive?  Do you think she may be pocketing the money she's raising?  Actually, I forget the charity she is taking donations for...do you remember?  She certainly isn't sharing with any of the families in the cottages she visits...

[BarbStAubrey]

No time till tonight but my heart went out for Jenny - and what struck me is that experience would be typical so that between peasants, poverty, the Black Death it is a miracle any of us are here on this earth - we had to have come from pretty strong stock to make it through the centuries - I just do not think any of us in this discussion are from a royal family to have escaped some of the disease and poor nutrition that was probably one of the causes of Child Death plus the illnesses that would kill a child like as I kid I remember having to be afraid of measles and whooping cough. Although, if any of us were royals I guess the fact the ancestor did not have their head chopped off before passing on the family genes.

[JudeS]

Sometimes I think we are all reading different books. There are so many story lines to follow that it takes all of us to untangle this involved and involving plot.
My involvement is with the comparison between the two "do-gooder" Mothers; Mrs Jellyby and Mrs Pardiggle (are these real names?)
Mrs Pardiggle's children see through her like Caddy did of her Mother, Mrs. Jellyby. Mrs Pardiggle is a terrible parent in exactly the opposite way then Mrs J. Mrs. P has so enmeshed herself with her boys that they can barely breathe. She is a total control freak.
Total control versus neglect. It seems that neglect wins out since the Jellyby children are not aggressive or vengefull, while the young Pardiggles are verbally and physically aggressive. (They all pinch Esther wherear the Jellybys listened to her fairy tales.).
Either way we have a bunch of victims versus a bunch of aggressive louts...Hmmm. neither one is very hopeful.
To even things out Dickens makes sure both Fathers are fading into the background.
I'm sure he had  a morality lesson going here. Maybe that Fathers ought to help their children live their lives and not dissappear into the atmosphere.

[JoanK]

Jude: "Total control versus neglect". Mmmm. And neglect wins out. Do you all agree? It does with Dickens, surely -- he has a huge soft spot for the neglected.

JoanP: I completely missed the possibility that Esther might be Lady Deadlock's daughter. Good on you. I think the poertrait of LD is the one with the dark background on the lefthand wall, juust to the left of the odd statue on a piller.