Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 203390 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2012, 05:39:38 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
the visit
to the Brickmaker's

 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

III
IV
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 May 1852
June 1852


 
 CHAPTERS

8-10
11-13  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

 Feb.25-29

 Mar.1-5
 
 in re Guppy
Extraordinary Proceedings

(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter VIII

1. Why is the chapter titled "Covering a Multitude of Sins"

2. In this chapter, Dickens switches from one great house to another (From Chesney Wolds to Bleak House) and from one housekeeper to another (Mrs Roundtree to Esther). What differences and similarities do you see?

3. Do you have a "growlery? Would you like one? What do you do when the wind is from the East? Are you involved in any "wiglomeration"?

4. Why does Esther say "I have nothing to ask you, nothing in the world"? What does that say about Esther, Mr. Jarndice?

Chapter IX

5. Why is this chapter called "Signs and Tokens"? What are the signs?

6. Here Dickens continues his parody of philanthropists. Yet Dickens has been criticized for implying that philanthropy is the answer to the problems of the poor. Can we tell what Dickens' own version of what philanthropy should be from his descriptions of Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle? How do the two differ? How the same?

7. At the end of the chapter, Esther says she "felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden" Why "coarsely touched"? What does she mean?

 Chapter X

8. Here we get more new characters, and revisit some. Do you enjoy these characters or is it too much? What is he doing with them?

9. Why do you think Dickens introduces Nemo(no one)?

10. Of all the minor characters  in these three chapters, which did you think were the most interesting? Which the least?They are: Mrs Roundtree, Mrs. Paridiggle, the bricklayer, his family, and neighbors, Mr. Boythorn, Mr. Guppy, Mr Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby, Guster, Nemo (no one), and whoever I forgot
 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  




JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2012, 05:42:59 PM »
Laura: an interesting theory about Mrs. Paradiggle's sins. Yes, with her certainty of HER rightiousness and everyone elses lack thereof, no one would dare question her.

Any other theories (I don't have any, but am always suspecting that Dickens has lots of things going on under the surface that I'm missing. This book is a little like the houses he is describing, so full of a miscellany of thing, you can't see anything clearly).

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: February 25, 2012, 05:44:44 PM »
It's hard to believe Mrs. Pardiggle accomplished any good whatever.  The victims of her charity aren't even people to her, just specimens.  She has no notion whatever of what their life is like, or what is appropriate in the way of help.  She doesn't even notice the dying baby who immediately attracts the sympathy of Esther and Ada.

I was kind of amused by the brickmaker.  He's a drunken brutal mess, but he does have a neat turn of phrase in describing an unsatisfactory situation.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: February 25, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »
Yes, Dickens manages to make these real people, even if they aren't to Mrs. Paradiggle.

How much of our charity work is like hers? Imposing our ideas of what people need on them, instead of asking what they need.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: February 25, 2012, 05:53:43 PM »
Esther as Lady Dedlock's daughter: I never even thought of that as a possibility, though I assumed her parentage would be an important plot point.  I can hardly wait.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: February 25, 2012, 06:38:01 PM »
I need to say here that I haven't read the book - nor have I read past the 4th Instalment.  I assumed that DIckens had provided a number of clues - Esther was her mother's disgrace - and then the last installment with the implication that Lady Dedlock's disgrace had the potential of bringing down the Dedlock's good name.  If there were other clues, I've forgotten now - it just seemed obvious to me that was where Dickens was going with this.  It's possible that another woman will be introduced into the story who will turn out to be Esther's mother.  Or maybe he will come up with a different story. 

I'm glad I asked if others felt the same about LadyD.  I think I should go add that to the list of questions until the story unfolds.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: February 25, 2012, 06:53:37 PM »
OH yes, it is so easy to get ahead of ourselves - I thought the Godmother who took care of Esther during her early childhood was her Grandmother - what is astonishing is she would the daughter of the Godmother who took care of Esther during her early childhood.

Mrs. P. reminds me of an experience years ago living in Kentucky and active in Girl Scouting - there was a troop who thought it would be good to help out a large poor family after the father was laid up from a recent accident. And so one Saturday morning they arrive to help her - all 26 girls ages 10 to 13 - their plan was to clean her house, tidy the garden and take the smallest children for a walk - a couple of the older children in the family were in the same classes as some of the girls in the troop - anyhow the women wouldn't let them in - shooed them all away - a big tado among the adult leaders about how they were rebuffed and how could she - not saying aloud but everyone knew she was among the poorest in town and not only could but should have been grateful for the help that the girls were offering.

It is ironic now and even then some of us just smiled - there is something called self respect and they were not allowing this family any self respect - which reminds me of Mrs. P who thinks everyone should live as she thinks best.

I love it - either control or neglect and I am sure Mrs P thinks that the bricklayer's household represents neglect caused by not having the incapability of fatigue similar to her own.

Did you catch it that Jenny's mother was watching for her master and when pressed it was her husband that she again referred to him as her master.

I am thinking that the disorganized dirty households are in our minds only a problem where there are families because come to think of it there could not be a more disorganized filthy establishment that included living quarters than that of Mr. Krook. Which makes you wonder if the silent men or boisterous in the case of the bricklayer would be any better at keeping the household organized, clean with children happily attending school. Come to think on it wasn't school a situation where you had to be able to afford to place your child either in a boarding school or with a minister's family - I do not think there were yet any tax supported schools.

OH yes, and the dingy dirty water used to wash things - we think just turn on the tap for clean water and goodness only knows how far away they had to go for their water - it could have been a hand pump in their yard but another Girls Scout story - I was bringing a car full of 6 teen age Senior Scouts into a small community in the hills of East Kentucky - they were going to assist some of the students from Barea Collage to immunize everyone, and have some history classes for the adults - this was in the 60s when roads were being built throughout the state and some of these communities had been isolated ever since the Stamp Tax put a stop to making and shipping whiskey. The mountains are too steep to grow enough of anything to ship so they became isolated communities.

Anyhow I had my three little ones piled in sitting on top of luggage and on laps when my oldest got car sick - we needed to wash him and the car so I stopped at a nearby house to ask for water. She handed me a pail and said if I walk about a half mile under an outcropping there was the pool they used for water. Believe you me if every drop of water we used I had to scoop it from among the green growth on top and haul it home in pails I would not be as clean and I would be using it over and over along with in that part of the county the coal dust that settled on every porch, windowsill and clothes on the clothes line. This family being the bricklayer's family I bet there was mud and dust all over that yard brought in the house on everyone's feet or shoes.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

salan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: February 25, 2012, 07:51:16 PM »
I, too, missed any implication that Lady D might be Esther's mother.....Oh boy, this book just keeps on introducing new characters and bringing up new questions.  I am glad we are reading it and discussing it together otherwise I might have given up.  I don't remember any of Dicken's other books being so hard to keep track of.  Reading it section by section and discussing it gives us the same feeling as reading it in installments.
Sally

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: February 25, 2012, 08:09:53 PM »
hahaha.......I think we'd better put Esther's mother on the list of UNSOLVED MYSTERIES after all.  For one thing, we don't know who her father was - for another, we don't know for certain about the relationship between Esther and her godmother.  Barbara says - "what is astonishing is she was the daughter of the Godmother who took care of Esther during her early childhood "  I remember that the godmother , Miss Barbary was identified at her death as Esther's aunt... which would make Esther's mother Miss Barbary's sister, wouldn't it?    I think we'd better leave it to Dickens to reveal the identity of Mrs. Barbary's sister - in his own time- and you can bet he will reveal that mystery.  And he's going to leave more clues along the way.

Glad you are staying  with us, Sally.  It makes a difference reading it as part of a group, doesn't it?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: February 25, 2012, 09:02:17 PM »
Ah Sooo ... the Godmother is an Aunt - I am going to have to put a flow chart together to understand who is who and how they are related. Still do not understand then why Esther is living with John Jarndyce if she has nothing to do with Jarndyce and Jarndyce but maybe she does and maybe so does Lady Deadlock - oh dear this is a muddle - I think I'm with Sally on this and would rather just take this a chapter at a time as it is written and maybe then I can figure out the string game - as of now I feel like I need another hand to untangle the string.

I am glad I watched the series Lark Rise to Candleford because I bet the look of it and the ways of the people were similar to what we are reading in Bleak House. Except the poor folk of Lark Rise seemed a lot cleaner than I bet was real and certainly a lot cleaner than I am imagining the scenes in Chapter VIII
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: February 26, 2012, 09:29:29 AM »

The plot thickens in the next segment, at least to the extent of getting lots more characters!  Don't faint, when you see the list of characters: Dickens is marshalling his forces, ready for the rest of the book.
I'm really glad we have that list of all the characters.  I look at it and realize that I've now met the vast majority of them.

Sometimes I really groan when Dickens introduces one more quirky, peculiar character, but then I get sucked in and laugh and enjoy the newcomer.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: February 26, 2012, 09:31:35 AM »
 JUDE, I don't think Dickens remark could be anything but disparaging. He doesn't seem to have
a very good opinion of the 'fashionable' world and the nobility, and he is able to make his
points very ....well, pointedly.

 While we're speaking of royal lapses and/or prerogatives, this might fall in there somewhere.
King James, (who authorized the King James Version of the Bible), chose his translators with a
view to insisting the new version emphasized his divine royal authority.

 And wouldn't we all, JONATHAN, be much happier to receive a mailing we could toss, than a vist
from an insensitive intruder who couldn't take no for an answer?   And thank you for the
explanation of 'Dame Durden' and 'Mrs. Shipton'. I wondered who they were. All are terms of
endearment, of course, tho' I can't imagine how that applied to Mrs. Shipton. I agree, there
was a bit too much of that.

 This is only a guess, mind you. But considering we have learned of a mysterious, unknown  man
 who died miserably, we know he must have some part in the story. Couldn't this be the former lover and Esther's father?

 I can't really think Esther enters someone's house looking for faults. But if you enter one
like Mrs. Jellyby's they pretty much hit you in the face, don't they? She would have to be
blind not to see them. JOANK, I think you are quite right that Esther's attitude toward the
helpless mirrors that of Dickens.

  I suddenly occurred to me that Mrs. Pardiggle's attitude was unpleasantly reminiscent of the
Inquisition. Saving the soul was all that mattered; if you killed the person while you were at
it you had still done the (self)righteous thing.

 ( Loved the 'fetch the water' story, BARB.)
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: February 26, 2012, 12:39:39 PM »
One of the questions asked was " Why did Mr. Guppy's love remind Esther of the doll she buried?".

Perhaps, and this is a surmise, ,Mr Guppy reminded her that there is love that has no logic. It just IS. Her love for her doll and his love for her are not provoked by the object but by the person who HAS to love something or someone.. Esther buried her doll, now she decides to bury Mr . Guppy's love.

The next totally unrelated subject is the poetic quality of some of Dickens writing. Sometimes it blows me away. Here are three examples;
"For smoke, which is London's ivy, had so wreathed itself around Peffer's name and clung to his dwelling place that the
affectionate parasite quite overpowered the parent tree."

"....in the shrunken fragments of its greatness lawyers, lie like maggots, in nuts."

"Tulkingorn is an oyster of the old school whom nobody can open."

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: February 26, 2012, 01:51:23 PM »
Barbara...one chapter at a time!  Mabye that's what we need to do to catch everything Dickens has packed into each.  As it is now, we are taking one installment at a time - each made up of three chapters.  I'm getting into the rythim of his writing, and yet I still find myself rereading when you all bring up things you 've read in the chapters.

I exhaled when I read that Dickens has already introduced most of the characters in these early installments, PatH!  Thanks for that.   It's encouraging.   I find if I just relate the new characters to the Jarndyce case -- and to Esther, I'm okay.

Jude, thank you so much for bringing those samples of Dickens' writing.  He's provided a provoking plot and social commentary all in this glorious writing.  What more can we ask for?  I hope others will follow your example and post examples of his writing as they catch your eye.

Speaking of the plot - Marcie has put together this page of  UNSOLVED MYSTERIES [which we'll keep in the heading to answer as the mysteries are solved and additional mysteries as they occur...


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2012, 02:08:17 PM »
I am confused - I have read and re-read and still I am confused - is Chesney Wold Bleak House or are they two separate houses - I read that Chesney Wold is in Lincolnshire and looked it up to learn there is still a Chesney Wold which is the name of a road.

In chapter II Lady Dedlock has returned to her house in town for a few days ...This is where she spends time before leaving for Paris and is where she traveled to leaving the dreary rain in Lincolnshire - now this is the progression that confuses me if Chesney Wold is or is not Bleak House.

My Lady Dedlock has been down at what she calls, in familiar conversation, her "place" in Lincolnshire...

My Lady Dedlock's place has been extremely dreary...

The vases on the stone terrace in the foreground catch the rain all day; and the heavy drops fall--drip, drip, drip--upon the broad flagged pavement, called from old time the Ghost's Walk, all night...

My Lady Dedlock (who is childless), looking out in the early twilight from her boudoir at a keeper's lodge and seeing the light of a fire upon the latticed panes, and smoke rising from the chimney, and a child, chased by a woman, running out into the rain to meet the shining figure of a wrapped-up man coming through the gate, has been put quite out of temper.


Follows is the description of Leicester Dedlock and how he fell in love and how after marriage Lady Dedlock froze rather than melting and how she is very attractive and then we have...

With all her perfections on her head, my Lady Dedlock has come up from her place in Lincolnshire (hotly pursued by the fashionable intelligence) to pass a few days at her house in town previous to her departure for Paris, where her ladyship intends to stay some weeks, after which her movements are uncertain. And at her house in town, upon this muddy, murky afternoon, presents himself an old- fashioned old gentleman, attorney-at-law and eke solicitor of the High Court of Chancery, who has the honour of acting as legal adviser of the Dedlocks and has as many cast-iron boxes in his office with that name outside as if the present baronet were the coin of the conjuror's trick and were constantly being juggled through the whole set.

Sir Leicester Dedlock is with my Lady and is happy to see Mr. Tulkinghorn.


All that does say that they have a house in town and both Dedlocks are in that house together - given we know that Lady Dedlock was the  ;) "sister" of Miss Barbary and the class distinction suggests that there was no way this house in town could have been brought into the marriage as the home of Lady Dedlock before her marriage to Sir Leicester.

Since the house she left in the dreary rain of Lincolnshire is described as having a Ghost Walk it must be the same house that Guppy previews with his friend.

Now online the information about the filming of this story that was picked up and compressed by PBS says
Quote
It was filmed on location in Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, and Kent from February 2005 through to July 2005. The exterior of the Dedlock's country house Chesney Wold, was represented by Cobham Hall in Kent, which is a girls' boarding school, and is occasionally open to the public. The exterior of Bleak House was represented by Ingatestone Hall in Essex. Other houses used for interior shots and garden locations include Balls Park in Hertfordshire, Bromham Hall in Bromham, Bedfordshire, and Luton Hoo in Bedfordshire.

Have we just not yet read anything taking place at Bleak House - it may be mentioned in the chapters we are reading this week and if so - sorry I have only read chapter 8 so far. What confuses me is were we to understand the house in town, which I am assuming to be London, is actually Bleak House. Help... ???  :-\  :'(
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2012, 02:17:17 PM »
P.S. Joan I like the reading of three chapters as a group however, I find myself reading one at a time and commenting on what I have read after each chapter - sometimes even before I have completed the chapter and then I relate  the three and finally see the connections to the entire of what we have read so far - that is my way - not suggesting it for anyone else - it is what works for me.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2012, 03:38:39 PM »
Barb, it's two separate houses.  Chesney Wold is the Dedlock family seat, in Lincolnshire, which has been in the family for centuries (the ghost walked there before her death in the 1600s).  Sir Leicester also has a house in town; I don't know how long that has been in the family.

Bleak House is the house where John Jarndyce lives, and now Esther, Ada, and Richard live there too, and Skimpole seems to also.  It's only mentioned by its name once, so it's very easy to miss.

Your approach to the chapters looks like a good one to me.  Maybe if I do that I won't have to go back as much.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2012, 04:07:58 PM »
ahhh - I would never have thought John Jarndyce lived in Bleak house - from the description of his house it does not sound very bleak to me or at least my concept of this dreary, dark, spooky looking house that I see portrayed in so many graphics. Now I have to figure out why his house is called Bleak House - I remember now reading - yes, it was changed from was it Peak house - something like that and was only called Bleak House by his father or grandfather - looks like I need to find that and re-read it . Thanks for clearing up my confusion.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2012, 04:53:40 PM »
That's right, Barbara. We've learned that Bleak House, once called Peaks, took its name during Tom Jarndyce's lifetime because he allowed it to go to rack and ruin.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2012, 05:41:22 PM »
Barbara, it may be that Dickens is blowing smoke into our eyes. He definitely does make Chesney Wold look very bleak with all that rotten weather. It may also be that Dickens himself lost track of his whereabouts in the big picture he had in mind.

I've read somewhere that Dickens could feel heartbroken after finishing a novel, which meant saying goodbye to all the characters who had come along to have their story told. I wonder. Will we feel the same when we turn the last page?

Who's sins are we reading about in Chapter 8? I can't see Mrs. Pardiggle as being without sin, but, in any case, her good intentions far outweigh any moral shortcomings. Besides, Dickens, I'm sure, has bigger fish to fry in his expose of English immorality.

Now, meddling with scripture in choosing translators who can be expected to know their sovereign's wishes is sinful. King James is going to have to pay for that in Hell, I'm certain.

I got the impression that the baby being cradled in the brickmaker's wife's arms was dead. Lost completely on Mrs. Pardiggle, upsetting furniture in her turns about the room, with her billowing skirts.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2012, 06:03:32 PM »
To use country slang Jonathan - There is no accounting for how someone uses a fishhook or some say bullet - seems to me lots of folks use the translated Bible verses to justify all sorts of behavior - and I have witnessed some lulus in my lifetime.

Thank for the clarity on Bleak House/Peak House - yes, Tom Jarndyce - - OK all this re-reading and checking who is who and where they are I was struck again and thought I would share...

Have you noticed - I call them Arke or Mercury or Iris - all messengers for the gods. I was calling them avatars but after looking up the definition had to change and call them messengers which wasn't dramatic enough - I like to read Victorian Novels with a lot of drama and so they became the wind footed Iris who marries the west wind, the gentlest of winds and the sister to Arke/Arce, who looses her wings taking sides against Zeus and Arce gives her shorn wings to Thetis at her wedding who fixes them to the heals of her son, Achilles. Or sleepy stillness as if the god Hypnos descended.

Anyhow, great fun reading Bleak house because if you notice the first few sentences and the last few sentence of each chapter guide us to what is happening within the chapter and moves us if we are to expect a change of location - we had Caddy leading them through London to meet the old Lady who led them to her rooms and then back to Caddy who takes them home. We have a carriage arrive that leads them out of London. We had Guppy take them and us to the Jellyby house - just look at the first and last paragraphs of each chapter it is amazing in that to me they all act as messengers - If it is quick transport then I name in my head the messenger as Mercury, if it is a chapter of good news, it is Iris, loss of understanding or of a place then it is Arce or the stillness of Hypnos.

By the way the god Eurus represents the unlucky east wind. He was thought to bring warmth and rain, and his symbol was an inverted vase, spilling water. humm maybe all that rain is spilling from the inverted vases of Eurus.

A couple of 1st and last bits from Bleak House - Chapter II a neat package contained within the chapter that feels as hypnotic as sleepy, still HypnosIt is but a glimpse of the world of fashion that we want on this same miry afternoon. - But the weather is extremely trying, and she really has been bored to death down at our place in Lincolnshire."

Chapter II Suggesting 'not clever' therefore, not the wisdom of age and so, youth added to, mystery, good fortune and unanswered questions. A rainbow chapter heralded  by Iris I have a great deal of difficulty in beginning to write my portion of these pages, for I know I am not clever. I always knew that. - "Youth. And hope. And beauty. And Chancery. And Conversation Kenge! Ha! Pray accept my blessing!"

Chapter III We pick right up with Kenge who explains and Guppy takes - the messenger to me is Arce with his gift to Thetis of his lost wings We were to pass the night, Mr. Kenge told us when we arrived in his room, at Mrs. Jellyby's; and then he turned to me and said he took it for granted I knew who Mrs. Jellyby was... Guppy, see the party safely there. - Lastly, it was no one, and I was no one. The purblind day was feebly struggling with the fog when I opened my eyes to encounter those of a dirty-faced little spectre fixed upon me. In Victorian times spectre were ghosts. The last sentence talks about Peepy climbing from his crib so cold his teeth were chattering as if he cut them all. That could be foretelling us of another young 'spectre' that will rattle Esther.

I could go on but y'all get the gist of another way we can enjoy the story and another look at the genius of Dickens - with a compelling first sentence to each chapter with a wrap up that can stand alone as well as, lead to the next chapter makes each chapter have all the ingredients of a short story so that, he connects short story to short story for over a year - amazing.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2012, 06:32:20 PM »
The baby was gasping its last when Mrs. Pardiggle arrived.  When she swooshed out, Esther and Ada lingered, and the baby died before their eyes.  It was certainly sick enough when they entered that anyone with any compassion would have noticed it immediately.

Barb, I totally hadn't noticed that structural detail in the chapters.  What a craftsman Dickens was!

nancymc

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: February 27, 2012, 05:19:00 AM »
There is one small clue to Esther's father.

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: February 27, 2012, 07:53:23 AM »
Barb-your information regarding the 'wind/winds' was so helpful; I was wondering why the references --though my husband being a boater, has made me aware bad weather comes from the east (talking about boating on Georgian Bay/L. Huron)

love the way Dickens references weather thru the pages of this book

pg 93 (ch VIII)'
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........finding all beyond still enshrouded in the indistinctness of last night, to watch how it turned out when the day came on. As the prospect gradually revealed itself, and disclosed the scene over which the wind had wandered in the dark, like my memory over my life, I had a pleasure in discovering the unknown objects that had been around me in my sleep.'

pg 98'..
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.to hint that he felt the wind'

[what an good way to let people know they are treading dangerously with your mood; and hopefully they can back off,....!!]--my thoughts

pg 121
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...I felt, from my Guardian's manner, that beyond this point I could not pursue the subject without changing the wind.'

Deb
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Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: February 27, 2012, 08:48:14 AM »
Quote
Anyhow, great fun reading Bleak house because if you notice the first few sentences and the last few sentence of each chapter guide us to what is happening within the chapter and moves us if we are to expect a change of location.

 Great observation, BARB. I hadn't noticed that, and it makes a very helpful hint for keeping
track of events and spotting clues.

 Again, I am greatly enjoying Dickens’ powers of description.  I can see Mr. and Mrs.
  Snagsby clearly. And Mr. Tulkinghorn.  Not just physical descriptions; their personalities, too.
  Look at  Tulkinghorn. “Rusty, out of date, withdrawing from attention, able to afford it.”  Even his home/office tells us so much. “Everything that can have a lock has one; no key is visible.’ The sly little addendum of 'able to afford it'.  And the secretiveness of the man;
so thoroughly 'locked up'.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: February 27, 2012, 09:09:49 AM »
So we've established that Bleak House and Chesney Wold are two different estates outside of London -  and that Chesney Wold is located in Lincolnshire?  Are they anywhere near one another?  Is Bleak House located in Lincolnshire too?

Babi, I too am enjoying the examples of Dickens power of description - both his characters, the interiors of the estate homes, of the brickmaker's - and of course,   the weather.  Wonderful references to the wind here this morning - the east wind in particular.  Is the east wind supposed to be convey ominous happenings in general, or does it only affect John Jarndyce in this way? An interesting note, Deb - that for boaters, bad weather comes from the EAST.  And as you've pointed out, weather plays an important role in Dickens' story.
  I'm wondering now whether Chesney Wold is to the east of Bleak House...  

Does anyone remember what brought Mr. Guppy to Chesney Wold - other than curiosity?  It was here he is struck by the portrait of Lady Dedlock.  A significant moment.  But what  brings him here in the first place.  Did his visit to Bleak House take place immediately after the visit to Chesney Wold?

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: February 27, 2012, 09:28:07 AM »
Quote
"There is one small clue to Esther's father."
 Nancymc - a tantalizing remark!  That is the number one question on our list of UNSOLVED MYSTERIES!  What is the clue, however small?

Chapter IX brings in a new character.  I'm wondering if you noticed the description of Lawrence Boythorn,   Boythorn turns out to be an old school friend of John Jarndyce - and also a close neighbor of the Dedlocks of Chesney Wold.  In that chapter we learn that Ada Clare and Rick Carstone are relatives of Sir Leicester, as well as cousins of John Jarndyce.  The plot thickens.  Though it gives no clue as to where Esther fits in.

  Esther is shocked that Boythorn never married - "he is so tender and courtly."  Why isn't he married, she wonders.    - Boythorn, this close neighbor to the Dedlocks, "almost married once.  ...this would influence all his life.  He's never been since what he might have been..."

He does have an effect on her.  She goes to bed that night, "trying to imagine old people young again, invested with graces of youth" - but her dreams bring her to days at godmother's house ."  "She almost always dreams of that."
Nancymc, is Boythorn's proximity to Chesney Wold and his unrequited love story the clue that you picked up on?  Is Dickens suggesting that he is Esther's father?  Or do you think Boythorn is another minor character in the story?



PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: February 27, 2012, 09:40:28 AM »
Nancymc, I caught a clue too--the one that JoanP just mentioned, don't know if that's yours.  But there may be different ones.  I have 2 conflicting theories as to the father's identity.

Something else we mustn't forget: this is a murder mystery.  Who do we think is going to get killed, and why?

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: February 27, 2012, 10:42:13 AM »
I thought Bleak House might be close to Chesney Wold too, but looking back, I see that Bleak House is in Hertfordshire, which is close to London, while Lincolnshire is much farther north.

nancymc

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: February 27, 2012, 11:11:37 AM »
I will just say why was Lady Dedlock 'overcome'

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: February 27, 2012, 11:56:50 AM »
Yes, that was my other theory.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: February 27, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »
Boythorn would seem to be capable of murder. And Sir Leicester is also subject to raging tempers. Boythorn is quoted as willing to do anything for the 'most accomplished Lady D' Perhaps there was a liason in the past, with Esther the love child. Fighting over a right of way along a path alongside the parsonage reflects the strong feelings the two men have about each other.

Settling differences in court is not an option it seems. Boythorn is prepared to blow the whole system skyhigh. Nothing ever gets settled once the affairs of men land in court.

Here's the irony. Pity the poor canary, Boythorn's joy and delight. 'I have left an annuity for his sole support, in case he should outlive me.' The poor bird will never see any of that money. Somewhere else we've been told that inheriting a great fortune would be punishment enough for the greatest wrongdoing.

Thanks to all of you for your tips on how to read and enjoy Dickens.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: February 27, 2012, 02:02:12 PM »
I sense Esther speculating about several candidates as 'father.' Parentage is certainly a major theme in the book. And of course identity. Who is Esther?

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: February 27, 2012, 04:16:26 PM »
Quote
Laura, I'm curious to see if your theory is true.  What is Mrs. Pardiggle's motive?  Do you think she may be pocketing the money she's raising?  Actually, I forget the charity she is taking donations for...do you remember?  She certainly isn't sharing with any of the families in the cottages she visits...

It never occurred to me that Mrs. Pardiggle was doing anything unethical with the money she raised.

Here is a description of her charitable works from the text:

I am a School lady; I am a Visiting lady, I am a Reading lady, I am a Distributing lady; I am on the local Linen Box Committee, and many general Committees; and my canvassing alone is very extensive --- perhaps no one’s more so.

My B&N edition has a footnote regarding Mrs. Pardiggle:

Like Mrs. Jellyby, Mrs. Pardiggle represents Dicken’s antipathy toward what he regarded as aggressive women engaged in misguided --- and often self-serving --- charitable efforts.  He had earlier characterized a “Mrs. Bellows,” who must agitate, agitate” and “work away at a Mission,” in a similar manner in “Sucking Pigs” (Household Words, November 8, 1851).

[I think Household Words was a magazine.]

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: February 27, 2012, 04:37:42 PM »

Does anyone remember what brought Mr. Guppy to Chesney Wold - other than curiosity?  It was here he is struck by the portrait of Lady Dedlock.  A significant moment.  But what  brings him here in the first place.  Did his visit to Bleak House take place immediately after the visit to Chesney Wold?

Mr. Guppy and his companion wanted "to see the house."  My B&N edition has a footnote about this:

Some country houses were opened to tourists during certain seasons and hours when the family was not in residence.

Mr. Guppy claimed that they had been on business at the magistrates' meeting and had heard a great deal said of Chesney Wold, so they came to see it.

In other words, we really don't know what the real purpose of their visit was.  They were pretending to be tourists.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: February 27, 2012, 07:09:50 PM »

My B&N edition has a footnote regarding Mrs. Pardiggle:

Like Mrs. Jellyby, Mrs. Pardiggle represents Dicken’s antipathy toward what he regarded as aggressive women engaged in misguided --- and often self-serving --- charitable efforts.

I have mixed emotions about Dickens' attitude toward women in charity.  On one hand, I think he disapproves of even the women who do real good, because it doesn't fit his notion of woman's proper sphere.

BUT, women like Mrs. Pardiggle really existed, and it was important to ridicule them and show up how much harm they did, and, with luck, discourage them.  It's bad enough to be down on your luck without having to endure the obtrusive ministrations of Mrs. P.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: February 27, 2012, 07:31:04 PM »
Seems to me I am remembering that Elizabeth Bennet and her Aunt and Uncle Gardiner visit Pemberley, Darcy's estate, in Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice believing Darcy will be absent. Their visit was a tour of the house. Remembering that in a story written about 30 years earlier it appears to be a practice that was not unusual.

All sounds rather ominous with Richard having a casual relationship with money and yet, this is Esther thinking and we know she has a spine of steal. She does grant him characteristics of being ardent, gentle, brave, lighthearted, frank and generous.  We also learn that Richard is related to Lady Dedlock
Quote
my Lady sent her compliments to the young gentleman (to whom she perfectly remembered that she was allied by remote consanguinity)

Much quiet-as-mice going on - no word about Skimpole. Since his debt is paid I assume he is still in the house and it is difficult to imagine him being as quiet as a mouse. No word either that Skimpole sits by the fire that evening.

Interesting the opposites created with the first bit describing the house and everyone in it as quiet, whispery, waiting and then all we needed was trumpets roar announcing, he does blow in, late and comer-fuddled over how he became late, the bombastic Mr. Lawrence Boythorn, who we learn is a neighbor to Sir Leicester Dedlock. This story is like weaving a basket with each reed a character that is related to the whole and to each other.  

I was struck how Boythorn was not minding his own business any more than Mrs. Pardiggle minded her own business. Both expressed how another should act and feel but because he had a wee canary feeding in his hand and what Boythorn says is with a laugh it all seems acceptable. Wonder if Dickens is suggesting a helpless trained bird is less threatening than children either needy or angry.

My take on the final paragraph...
Quote
But, when I went upstairs to my own room, I surprised myself by beginning to laugh about it and then surprised myself still more by beginning to cry about it. In short, I was in a flutter for a little while and felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden.
is indeed related to the first bit when Esther says,
Quote
I am really vexed and say, "Dear, dear, you tiresome little creature, I wish you wouldn't!" but it is all of no use.
she is talking about her feelings not her physical self but her inner self which sounds like the burying of the doll had more implications - she not only buried childhood things as if burying her childhood reactions and memories but, was burying her freedom to feel. It helps to connect the dots showing how she is organized, doing the proper thing following all courtesies. There is no kicking up her heals or engaging in any intimacies although, she observes them with Richard and Ada. She has become like a peeping Tom to her own life. Fluttered, flustered or flattered Guppy's awkward proposal touched a chord of feeling humor and tears of what, loneliness, abandonment, gratefulness that she was noticed for more than her efficiency? Her tears are left for us to decipher. Maybe just tears of being close to her feelings again that she thought she had buried.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: February 28, 2012, 07:32:16 AM »

...she not only buried childhood things as if burying her childhood reactions and memories but, was burying her freedom to feel....She has become like a peeping Tom to her own life....

That's an insightful take on Esther.  She certainly has never had the opportunity to consider her own feelings.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: February 28, 2012, 07:40:17 AM »
I decided to buy the DVD of the BBC production of Bleak House, and it arrived yesterday - watched part of the first episode in bed last night (couldn't last till the end, but that was me, not the production!).  It is very good, I think, and Charles Dance is an excellent Tulkinghorn, so silent and knowing.  Pauline Collins (she of the original Upstairs Downstairs, also  'Shirley Valentine') is Miss Flite - wonderful.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: February 28, 2012, 07:50:25 AM »
Good.  I'll keep it in mind for the time when I'm ready to watch.  Are you going to watch in stages along with reading to avoid spoilers?