Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 204127 times)

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: March 08, 2012, 10:18:30 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                           
by Charles Dickens
                     

 

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
 
 
The Dancing School
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

V
VI
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 July 1852
Aug 1852


 
 CHAPTERS

14-16
17-19 
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

Mar.6-10

 Mar.11-15
 
 Consecrated Ground
(click to enlarge)
                Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter XIV  Deportment

1. Before Richard leaves to study medicine, he  mentions that he isn't trusting in the Jarndyce suit but "if" it should be resolved, he has no objection to being rich. How do Ada and Esther react?

2. In this chapter Dickens takes the opportunity again to satirize show over substance.  How is Turveydrop senior described?

3. In what ways are the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince Turveydrop similar?

4. How has Caddy changed since Esther last saw her? What is her relationship with Miss Flite?

5. What do you make of the names Miss Flite has given her birds?

6. What impressions do you have of the "medical gentleman" Woodcourt?

7. What other incidents or descriptions seem important in this chapter?

 Chapter XV  Bell Yard

1. How are the "philanthropists" who petition Mr. Jarndyce for money described?

2. Coavinses (Neckett) has died leaving three young children in the Bell Yard. What is their fate? How are they treated by various people?

3. How does Dickens use Gridley to strengthen his criticism of Chancery?

Chapter XVI  Tom-All-Alone's

1. Lady Dedlock, disguised as a servant, goes to London to find Jo, the crossing sweeper who lives in a slum called Tom-all-Alone's. What places does she ask Jo to take her? What seems to be her reaction? What is her concern about the graveyard?

2. What details of poverty does Dickens provide in the description of Jo's tour of the city?

3. What events in this chapter serve to increase the suspense in the novel?

   

                                                 

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi JoanK  


marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: March 08, 2012, 10:18:43 AM »
bookad, you say, "Cady seems to be trading a mother for a father-in-law, both with a major interest that is time consuming." You're right. Her mother and father-in-law to be are quite similar in their full-time obsession with their causes (in Mr. Turveydrop's case, it's himself). I think that Cady will be a help to Prince T. in that she can take over the tasks of making tea/coffee and cooking for him and Prince so that Turveydrop Junior is free to teach classes. Sharing the burden with Prince might make it bearable.

When Miss Flite's new income (7 shillings a week) was announced, Esther looked at Mr. Jarndyce who was occupied looking at something else. I am thinking as JoanP and some of the rest of you, that Jarndyce is the source of her new income.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: March 08, 2012, 10:30:00 AM »
Babi, thank you very much for finding the "banknotes" meaning of "spinach." In addition to it sounding like nonsense (as JoanP finds in her nursery rhyme reference) and, thus, adding to the humor of the names, "banknotes" makes very good sense in the context of the Chancery.

You mention: " Another hint, or portent, of future revelations. (Mr. Krook)
"kept close to Mr. Jarndyce, and sometimes detained him, under one pretense or other....
as if he were tormented by an inclination to enter upon some secret subject, which he
could not make up his mind to approach.”  What does Mr. Krook know?"

Yes, Mr. Krook is following Mr. Jarndyce around like a cat and he's trying to teach himself to read. What papers does he have in his stash? What is he trying to find out?

JoanP, you comment about the repetition in Dickens' writing in this novel: "I couldn't help but think of the families gathered around to listen to whomever was able to read, read it aloud.  I think the writing style would be quite effective when read this way." That is very likely. We know that Dickens often performed his novels and also read them aloud to  himself while he was writing, taking on all of the characters. Also, I read somewhere that Dickens took a long, meandering style with Bleak House in particular, so that he would mirror the long, drawn-out process of the Chancery.

Thanks for the link to the article about Dickens working style. My Penguin Classics edition of Bleak House also has an appendix with a typed copy of Dickens' plan by numbered chapter of the characters and plot movement he was going to use in each chapter.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: March 08, 2012, 10:46:12 AM »
I love the support material that is shared - thanks Joan that is a really nice link - and thanks ever Jude the article you quote from the magazine is really rounding off so many edges - I did find this site that explains Gammon to be slang at the time to mean Deceive but Spinach was not listed - the site is filled with the slang words used during this time in history

http://www.tlucretius.net/Sophie/Castle/victorian_slang.html

Deb I was curious as well about that shilling and its value - this was what I found - since British money changed the shilling was important before 1971. The count was 20 Shillings or 240 pennies to the pound therefore, one shilling is like a nickle is to the dollar.

I wonder the value of a nickle or a shilling in 1852? Found "What cost $1 in 1852 would cost $25.88 in 2010." So one shilling is worth about $1.30 American and found... a $4. loaf of bread today would cost sixteen cents in 1852.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: March 08, 2012, 10:53:46 AM »
Barbara, thank you for that fun link to Victorian slang. I found at random:

Beak-hunting: Poultry stealing
Bearer up: Person that robs men who have been decoyed by a woman accomplice.

I could spend a lot of time there!


JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: March 08, 2012, 10:56:23 AM »
Barbara - I read that one monthly  installment of Bleak House cost one shilling in 1852.  Miss Flite might even have a shilling set aside for one of these now. :D

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: March 08, 2012, 11:08:25 AM »
 :D  ;) Miss Flite and her shilling to buy Dickens and read about herself  :D I love it...

What caught my eye marcie is the slang word for Rook - remember when Tulkinghorn was described walking in the park at Chesney Wold as a black rook - that I thought meant a bird - well now I wonder - or maybe even a double entendre because rook is slang for jemmy as in a tool used by a thief to jemmy something open - now does that fit Tulkinghorn or what...?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: March 08, 2012, 12:59:26 PM »
What a lot of good posts this morning. fascinating to read about Dickens and his fear that the "fecklessness" in his family will infect his sons. That explains Richard in a nutshell! I'll bet he is portraying either his feckless son, or what he was afraid his son would be. (I love that word: "feckless" -- never hear it anymore).

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: March 08, 2012, 01:04:45 PM »
Last night, there was a broadcast of an episode of Dickens' "Little Dorrit" on my local PBS. Check your local TV stations, to see if it's being broadcast in your area. It had a character with birds in it, too, although they were more exotic birds. And more satire of government institutions.

Unfortunately, I didn't know it was going to be on, and tuned it in in the middle. But I kept up fairly well.

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: March 08, 2012, 01:49:59 PM »
Joan K
Of all PBs and BBC Television series of Dickens Books I thought "Little Dorrit" to be the best.
Each episode outdoes the one before it.  I believe it is so good because Dicken's father was in the Marshalsea poor house (debtore prison) and he visited his father there. He had a lifelong onterest in this place in which Dorrit lives her whole childhood.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: March 08, 2012, 02:12:52 PM »
I'm trying to catch up on my posts, so some of my comments will be backtracking.

I agree that Miss Flite's shillings come from John Jarndyce.  Jarndyce also hoped from the very start that Ada and Richard might fall in love.  The first evening they are at Bleak House, Esther, Skimpole and Jarndyce are talking, and watching Ada and Richard at the piano.  Jarndyce has been looking at the cousins: "...though Mr. Jarndyce's glance, as he withdrew it, rested but for a moment on me, I felt as if, in that moment, he confided to me--and knew that he confided to me, and that I received the confidence--his hope that Ada and Richard might one day enter on a dearer relationship."

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: March 08, 2012, 02:17:23 PM »
Someone wondered if Sir Leicester Dedlock still loves his wife.  I can't find it, but somewhere we are told that he does.  What we aren't told, is whether she loves him, or ever did.  But at least she is nice enough to him that she hasn't killed his love.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: March 08, 2012, 02:27:05 PM »
Re the question about the source of Miss Flyte's sudden income. It has been guessed correctly by one of us. Here's Esther on it:

'I did not speculate upon the source from which it came, or wonder whose humanity was so considerate. My guardian (Mr Jarndyce)  stood before me, contemplating the birds, and I had no need to look beyond him.'

'Contemplating the birds', is very significant. Mr J is seriously trying to make the world a better place, and the birds, as Babi pointed out, represent Chancery fallout. Constant attendance in court has given her a sorry picture of life. Of course it is also a way the author has of telling the reader what is to come. I take gammon and spinach to stand for etc, etc, etc.

Isn't Pippy a sweet little character. Hanging around the market. Playing with his oyster shells. Following the junkman, or the sheep being led back to the country. But he's being spoiled by Esther. What a critical eye she has. Caddy shows up with her little brother in tow, and all Esther sees is Caddy's inability to make him presentable. The result: inelegant deportment. A great foil for the dressed up Mr Turveydrop Sr. How funny. The dirt on his face and hands has only been wiped into the corners!

Caddy kvetches too much. But, she does want a life of her own. Can't blame her for that. How funny. Life for her father is, 'one great washing-day - only nothing's washed!

What a surprise in this instalment. Mr Tulkinghorn is making enemies. There he is in his office writing to the magistrate to get a restraining order, that will keep Mr Gridley from doing him 'bodily harm.'

Another character: 'an old lady of censorious countenance.' Peepy tried sitting beside her, caused her much indignation with his boots, and then moved one seat over, making a place for Esther, who then silently compares notes with 'censorious.' But the show goes on.

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: March 08, 2012, 02:39:18 PM »
Joan P--thank you for the piece about Dicken's writing and his notes; am going to try and find these articles/books

ironically you mentioned Norton's critical essay book & I believe that is the book that is on reserve for me at the library--the one I currently have is due back having had it out three terms--failing that there is a good online copy of the book Bleak House

http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/bleakhouse/15/


Quote
her good fortune?”

“Most extraordinary!” said Miss Flite, smiling brightly. “You never heard of such a thing, my dear! Every Saturday, Conversation Kenge, or Guppy (clerk to Conversation K.), places in my hand a paper of shillings. Shillings. I assure you! Always the same number in the paper. Always one for every day in the week. Now you know, really! So well-timed, is it not? Ye-es! From whence do these papers come, you say? That is the great question.
--from chapter 14 when after the visit to the dance academy the group went to Miss Flite's residence

Deb
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And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: March 08, 2012, 07:22:56 PM »
Deb, you'll be happy with the Norton Critical Edition.  I have one more note about Dickens' writing style that I found this morning - it helps to picture the author as he works out the novel.

"The working notes took the form of "plan sheets" for each installment. In these he worked forward and backward in planning the whole novel. He followed the following procedure:

 - about ideas for future developments: things having to do with planning and decision making, writing queries to himself about which options to ttaking a sheet of approximately 7" x 9" of (pale blue) paper, he folded it at the long side horizontally in half,  which he then opened, using the left half to make notes ake, what character to kill when, tags and motifs, about names, alternate possibilities in story development, etc. Often, he answered such queries later a laconic "Yes," "No," "Not yet," "Consider for next number," etc.

On the right side dealt with the substance of the chapters. Thus he uaully wrote on the top right of the sheet the name of the novel and the installment number; below the title he wrote the name of each planned chapter. In the space under each chapter he listed the most important events. The "plan sheets" varied very much, as one might expect. Some plans are very full, some remained rather empty.

Sometimes he supplemented these planning notes with supplemental notes about chronology, calculations of the ages of characters, ratio of manuscript pages to printed pages, considerations of what he had done and needed to do; plans for the end of the novel.

These Plans were succinct outlines of reminders and motifs, resumes. They are "compact and cryptic," as they were only intended for him. Apparently, he kept the notes together with his manuscripts. One might therefore say that Dickens was of necessity an outliner."



JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: March 08, 2012, 07:32:39 PM »
JoanP: "One might therefore say that Dickens was of necessity an outliner."

In order to write a book like this, one would have to be, I'd think.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: March 08, 2012, 07:32:41 PM »
Oh yes, JoanK.  I just love the image of him with his 7x9 sheets of blue paper - folded neatly in half, ready to go.  For one who claims the words just flow out of his pen, he seems almost compulsive in the way he organizes his desk  and writing materials when he sets out to write.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: March 08, 2012, 08:43:23 PM »
I appreciate all of the interesting posts here today.

Have we touched on the "medical gentleman," Woodcourt, whom we see again in Chapter 14, after being introduced to him in Chapter 10 when Miss Flite called him to Nemo's apartment (after Nemo was already dead). What do you think of him?

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: March 08, 2012, 09:38:45 PM »
I was glad for Woodcourt's explanation in chapter 14 that Miss Flite had fetched him to Nemo's deathbed; his appearance there had seemed like a big coincidence.

Esther is rather coy about describing him (or her feelings about him), but he speaks for himself, and seems to be unassuming, very sensible, compassionate, and clever.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: March 08, 2012, 10:05:57 PM »
We certainly are seeing a lot of children in difficult circumstances.

We have the Jellybys, dirty, unwatched, always hurting themselves, with Caddy, no longer a child, resentful of the burdens placed on her.

We have Jo, who doesn't seem to know much about anything, but has figured out how to scrape out a living by sweeping the streets.

Now we have the young Neckett (Coavinses) children, managing during their father's illness and after his death, with the 13 year old doing washing, precariously getting help from neighbors.

And there is a brief appearance of one of Skimpole's children.  Neckett's successor takes possession of Skimpole's house during the birthday celebration of his blue-eyed daughter.  Skimpole annoys me.  He is about to leave his family in this pickle (perhaps the daughter is grown up, but even so) and go gadding off to Boythorn's.  And the way he talks here about not knowing the value of money, and especially about being a child, makes me feel he knows perfectly that this is his meal ticket and is working it for all he can get.

pedln

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: March 08, 2012, 11:06:40 PM »
Quote
(I love that word: "feckless" -- never hear it anymore).

No, you don’t, JoanK.  I’m glad you brought it up, as I think I had glazed over it.  It certainly does describe Richard.

And Miss Flight’s good fortune – I had overlooked that.  “A paper of shillings.”  That surprised me, as I had always pictured shillings as being coins.  I agree with those who think that these shillings have come from Mr. Jarndyce.

And it wouldn’t surprise me if the Neckette children also will receive something from Mr Jarndyce, perhaps administered by Mr. Gridley.  The two men do seem to have their dislike of the court system in common, and in spite of his anger at much of the world, he has shown that he cares for the children.  As little Tom says, "he ain't mad at ME"

Quote
We have Jo, who doesn't seem to know much about anything, but has figured out how to scrape out a living by sweeping the streets.

I agree, PatH, lots of children in dire circumstances.  You can’t help but wonder what their lives will be like as they get older.  Caddy has had some kind of education, and has perhaps found a future with Prince T, who also probably has learned his letters and numbers.  But for the Neckettes and Jo – will little Tom ever learn to read?  Jo has street smarts, as he bites his money to make sure it’s gold, and then hides it in his mouth. But such payments will be rare for him.

This is London in the 1850s. Is a child condemned to the status in which he was born?

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: March 09, 2012, 02:27:55 AM »
PatH, I agree that Woodcourt seems to be "unassuming, very sensible, compassionate, and clever." He says that it's because he came too late to help Nemo that he is coming frequently (maybe without pay) to look in on Miss Flite. He seems very compassionate. And he doesn't try to confront or change Miss Flite. He seems to understand how to relate to poor, idiosyncratic people.

PatH and Pedln, we are meeting a lot of children in unfortunate circumstances. The Neckett children seem to be resigned to their status and to do all they can to survive. They don't seem to expect help from adults.


BarbStAubrey

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rosemarykaye

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: March 09, 2012, 05:30:44 AM »
Pedln:  I wonder if a 'paper of shillings' means a packet or envelope with the coins inside?  I think you used to be able to buy 'a paper of sugar' and things like that.

Yes I think the children are condemned to the status they are born in.  And I think they still are today more often than not - it's just not quite so obviously bad (eg you wouldn't see a child sweeping the street in this country any more, but there are still thousands of them suffering severe neglect and abuse behind closed doors - maybe more so now, when most of us don't know our neighbours and are very reluctant to 'interfere'.  Imagine if Mr Gridley came down and cuddled the Neckett children today - he'd be arrested for sexual abuse).

Rosemary

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: March 09, 2012, 07:17:40 AM »
Quote
Upon that, Mr Skimpole began to talk, for the first time since our arrival, in his usual gay strain. He said, Well, it was really very pleasant to see how things lazily adapted themselves to purposes. ........................................................There had been times, when, if he had been a Sultan, and his Grand Vizier had said one morning, “What does the Commander of the Faithful require at the hands of his slave?” he might have even gone so far as to reply, “The head of Coavinses!” But what turned out to be the case? That, all that time, he had been giving employment to a most deserving man; that he had been a benefactor to Coavinses; that he had actually been enabling Coavinses to bring up these charming children in this agreeable way, developing these social virtues! Insomuch that his heart had just now swelled, and the tears had come into his eyes, when he had looked round the room, and thought, “I was the great patron of Coavinses, and his little comforts were my work!”
--ch 15

Mr. Skimpole --only one word I can think of that characterizes him  delusional

and though he may be childlike I really don't like this man; am amazed at the patience Mr. Jarndyce has when in his presence--watching the movie portraying Skimpole from a BBC version, he was really portrayed as a real lulu, a real twit


Quote
I don’t know where she was going, but we saw her run, such a little creature, in her womanly bonnet and apron, through a covered way at the bottom of the court; and melt into the city’s strife and sound, like a dewdrop in an ocean.

what a beautiful/sad mindpicture the above leaves me with

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: March 09, 2012, 07:35:15 AM »
Deb - I'm not sure that he's delusional - more of a schemer IMO.  If I were Jarndyce I would have throttled him by now  :D

Rosemary

pedln

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: March 09, 2012, 09:17:18 AM »
That is a treat, Barb.  Thanks.  I didn't know they made films that early.  I wonder what was the earliest.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: March 09, 2012, 09:26:16 AM »
 Love it, JOAN!  This is the sort of thing that makes these discussions so much fun.
I remember the rhyme as beginning, "The frog he would a-courting go".  Maybe that's
where I first heard of gammon and spinach, though I don't remember that part. I did
have the impression that the words denoted nonsense.
  I liked that article, too. Whew! The amount of planning and hard work that went into
his writing. I had been aware of one early statement, that "Names were obviously very
important for Dickens. They are highly evocative and have often "symbolic" significance."
I think we've all noted that some names seem so appropriate to the character.

 What really confused me about Krook, MARCIE, is that he insisted on trying to teach
himself how to read. He didn't trust anyone else to do it. ???  I think we must add
paranoid to our description of Mr. Krook. It might explain a number of things.

  I wholly agree about Skimpole, ROSEMARY.  The man was playing his 'child' role to the hilt,
but I notice he is very clever with his arguments and explanations.  Far too clever for a child.
Mr. Jarndyce is so saddened by all the grief he sees,  I think he really wants to believe in the childlike innocence of Skimpole. 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: March 09, 2012, 10:19:34 AM »
My heart went out to Mr. Gridely - Dickens knew how to change our opinion of him by first describing him as "irritable"  "combative" - a rough character seemingly looking for trouble.  Made you cringe at the idea of his looking in at the little Necketts..(I have a footnote describing the location of their flat as "three pair" -  as up  "three flights of stairs" )    But then he's described as kind to the children.  Slowly we hear of the lawsuit that has taken two years to resolve, costing three times what his mother had left -   And now we understand  the man's bitterness.  Esther notices the floor of Gridely's room is littered with paper as she climbs up to the Neckett's place. The case still goes on.  

Mr. Gridely's suit is compared to that of Jarndyce.  I've been wondering all along how John Jarndyce is affected by the lengthy suit.  He lives in a fine home, spending money freely.  Isn't his estate at risk ?  Or does he  spend his fortune now, assuming that the case will never be settled and he'll never have to pay costs? - If it is settled someday, he will have little left with which to pay the costs  He seems totally unconcerned.

Something else about his attitude towards Skimpole - he is clearly amused at Skimpole's lack of responsibility, doesn't mind picking up the tab for his spending.  -  While I'm with the rest of you in our dislike of Skimpole, I'm finding the benevolent John Jarndyce's attitude towards him both puzzling and annoying.

Deb - the comparison of little Charlie Neckett to a dewdrop in the ocean brings to mind all of these neglected children - so many of them, yet they are mere drops in the ocean.  How many of them can John Jarndyce hope to save?

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: March 09, 2012, 11:03:28 AM »
Barbara, that is such an interesting article about a 111-year-old film that was recently found that depicts a character from Bleak House!  Pedln, I searched and found the Roundhay Garden Scene, an 1888 short film directed by inventor Louis Le Prince. It was recorded at 12 frames per second, runs for 2.11 seconds and is the oldest surviving film. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1i40rnpOsA

I am with all of you who have found Gridley's character very sympathetic in his care of the orphaned children. (I think you are right, Rosemary, about his being suspect of child abuse today!!)

I am also with all of you who want to throttle Skimpole. JoanP, I'm puzzled too why Jarndyce continues to support him. One of the early chapters does say that he finds Skimpole refreshing in his admissions of his requests for support from Jarndyce; as opposed to the elaborate and boring requests from various "philanthropists." Deb, maybe you are right that Skimpole is delusional. He may truly believe (talked himself into believing) all that he says.

Thanks, Deb, for quoting the excerpt about the little Neckett girl. It vividley struck me too while I was reading.  It was very sad, but also hopeful in some kind of odd way. She is a shining dewdrop amid the dirt and chaos of the city.

"I don’t know where she was going, but we saw her run, such a little creature, in her womanly bonnet and apron, through a covered way at the bottom of the court; and melt into the city’s strife and sound, like a dewdrop in an ocean."


Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: March 09, 2012, 12:04:21 PM »
Don't be too hard on Skimpole. He's very entertaining to have around as a house guest, with his provocative ideas. Everybody finds him entertaining. That's what he does for his supper. Why would Mr Jarndyce want to throttle him. They relate well. And influence each other. Didn't Mr Jarndyce gently remind Skimpole that Coavinses was just doing his job in arresting him? Skimpole picks up on that and later points out that, yes, the dead Coavenses had been providing for his family. Instead of idling in the sunshine as he had been advised by Skimpole.

We are certainly given plenty of opportunity to make comparisons. Gridley and Jarndyce. Caddy and Charlie. Guppy and Woodcourt. Mr Tulkinghorn and....in a class of his own. He's setting himself up for trouble. Ignoring women at his peril. Thinking of them as the troublemakers in the world. If it weren't for the business they bring along with their troublemaking.... I could tell you the funniest lawyer joke... but I'll take a hint from Dickens...don't talk about sex.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: March 09, 2012, 12:15:28 PM »
Life has gotten in the way of my participation in this installment’s reading and discussion.  I hate it when that happens!  I am now caught up, just as we are about to move forward again.

I am thrilled that Caddy has found a fiancé in Prince.  I am also very glad that Caddy and Mrs. Flite have formed a friendship.

Based on what we know of Mr. Woodcourt, I still think that he and Esther will make a good match.

I gained even more respect for Mr. Jarndyce when I read that he “was constantly beset by the crowd of excitable ladies and gentlemen, ” the philanthropists.  It must be exhausting be to around people who want something from you all the time.

This installment ended with another cliff hanger!  Why was Lady Dedlock interested in Nemo’s places, including his final resting place?

Looking at the big picture of this installment, I was struck by the satirical portrayal of Mr. Turveydrop, and the contrast between the rich and the poor and the educated and the uneducated.  In general, I found these chapters to be sad to read.  Dickens certainly doesn’t gloss things over for his readers, does he?

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: March 09, 2012, 02:09:05 PM »
What I am beginning to see is Dicken's genius in his attention to the tiniest details.:
The cat-Lady Jane
The "Birds of Flite"
The Lost children-each story sadder than the one before it.(But Jo's the saddest of all.)

I can place all the characters and their symbolic value except for Mr. Skimpole. What is Dickens really trying to tell us when he put a character like that in this book? It may be revealed later on. Meanwhile I have four theories.  I don't know if any of them are true but I gave it a shot.

1)Even Mr Jarndyce, with all his wisdom, is not above being scammed.

2)Some scam artists are so talented that they make it big and get away with everything.

3)Dickens needed a foil to compare with the good soul of Mr. Jarndyce.

4)Dickens has closely observed a scam artist and wishes to forewarn us what this type of person is really like. This would allow us to recognize him if we came across such a one as he.

Do any of you have further ideas of Mr. Skimpoles true place in this novel?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: March 09, 2012, 02:14:51 PM »
I am laughing with the memory of Hyacinth Bucket and Richard in the Brit Com Keeping up Appearances when Richard comes home with athletes food and Hyacinth in her usual flutter and need to be respectable says he has Gout because it afflicts those who over-indulge on finer living.

And I think the difference between Mr. Turveydrop and Lady D is not just that they are both fashionable - Turveydrop is fashionable in his dress and manner much like a Dandy where as. Lady D is described as having "Fashionable Intelligence" -

This story is taking place 60 years after the French Revolution and 4 years after the revolution ended the Orleans monarchy. During the eighteenth century, leading up to the first Revolution popular were the Salons in France that were all about discussing and bantering about the latest thinking in the arts, science, freedom etc. Salons were run by women and considered the hallmark of Fashionable Intelligence.

Lady Dedlock's boredom is another example of being caged - in that there are books and books written about how women were dismissed from power after the French Revolution when men took over the organizing and creation of the changing governing powers. Granted we had Victoria on the throne however, in the Dedlock "patrician order of aristocracy" women were a decoration. It appears that Lady D was bucking the "testimony to greatness" by flittering "hither again, to the confusion of the fashionable intelligence."  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: March 09, 2012, 02:21:30 PM »
Yes, Jude I think I do - it will take me a bit to organize my thinking since I see things like a schematic electronic board with various colored lines making elbow connections and always have before I knew such a think/thing existed - so it takes me a bit to get it into thoughts I can convey - I am seeing lots of links in a new way and with your sharing about how the Dickens boys left England to create their own life for me it is all fitting.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: March 09, 2012, 06:58:01 PM »
Jonathan, Skimpole certainly is entertaining. JudeS, would Dickens include a character mainly for the benefit of humor?

Laura, yes, reading about the children of Neckett was very sad. Dickens giving the eldest girl and her younger brother, who babysat the baby as well as he could, such nobility made me feel for them even more.

Barbara, how fitting to recall Hyacinth Bucket. She is a character worthy of Dickens.

We talked about Chapter 14 quite a bit. We slipped into Chapter 15, THE BELL YARD, and have touched on the main characters and events. We've also talked a bit about Chapter 16, TOM ALL ALONE'S. Tomorrow is the last scheduled day for this installment.

As Laura says, we're left with a cliffhanger as Lady D, disguised (not very well) as a servant, has asked Jo to take her to all of the significant places for Nemo. The final place is his grave -- his body has been put on top of other skeletons and assorted bones, and not covered with much earth. Lady D asks Jo if it's consecrated ground but he doesn't know. What do you think is her concern?

What descriptions of the poverty of Jo's surroundings struck you as especially forceful?

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: March 10, 2012, 09:30:30 AM »
 I believe John Jarndyce has an independent income, JOANP, aside from the 'expectations'
of the Jarndyce case. Sensibly, he expects nothing whatever from Chancery and goes about
his life quite peacefully without it.

 Tulkinghorn and 'Conversaton' Kenge, perhaps, JONATHAN?  I'm not enraptured with Kenge,
either, but at least he seems more open and more agreeable.

 So glad you are back, LAURA. Life does have a way of doing that. I can think of only
one reason for Lady Dedlock's interest in Nemo. She must know that he is her lost lover.
And no, Dickens doesn't gloss over the horrors, does he?  He wants very much to bring them to
the attention of his readers, and stir up their indignation about all of it.

 Some good ideas on the Jarndyce - Skimpole question. JUDE. Any of them could be correct.
I wonder if we will ever know for sure?  I'm curious to learn how BARB's colored lines are going
to merge.  :)
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: March 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM »

What descriptions of the poverty of Jo's surroundings struck you as especially forceful?

A gross way to start the day, but Jo going barefoot on the streets struck me.

"with his bare feet, over the hard stones, and through the mud and mire."

"into a corner of that hideous archway, with its deadly stains contaminating her dress."

Blah!

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: March 10, 2012, 10:22:03 AM »
Here's some news from one of our Reading Promotion Partners in the Library of Congress Center for the Book -

PBS MASTERPIECE CLASSIC - GREAT EXPECTATIONS BOOK GIVEAWAY
Continuing the focus on the anniversary of Charles Dickens' 200th birthday, Masterpiece Classics on PBS will premier a new adaptation of Great Expectations on Sunday, April 1. The program has been nominated in Great Britain for "best drama series" by the Broadcasting Press Guild (BPG) TV Awards.

Our friends at the PBS Educational offices in Boston have generously offered our SeniorLearn readers a limited number of the 150th Anniversary/Penguin Classics Deluxe edition of Great Expectations free, just for the cost of postage. Interested?  If you'd like to own one of these book copies, simply post your interest in SeniorLearn's PBS Discussion by March 16.  If the number of requests is greater than the number of books provided by Masterpiece Classics, we will hold a random drawing of names from the relevant posts in the discussion. We will follow up later for your address. Open to U.S. residents only.

Talk about any PBS programs, or indicate your interest in receiving a copy of the 150th Anniversary/Penguin Classics Deluxe book, Great Expectations, at http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2716.400

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: March 10, 2012, 11:32:32 AM »
Laura , barefoot Jo - and  homeless Jo.  That dreadful place - Tom-All-Alone's is no place for the boy, full of drug users, dealers, alcoholics - thieves - but he really has no place to go.   A strange name for the house in which Jo lives.  Strangely enough, I read in the Norton's Critical edition that there really was a house with this name - "the home of Thomas Clark, a recluse of whom Dickens learned in his childhood."  That's all it says - but somewhere else is a list of titles Dickens considered for this novel - "Tom All-Alone's" was right up there on the list behind "Bleak House." This seems to idicate the importance of these children in the novel.  There seems to have been no social services looking out for these children.

I can see nothing but trouble ahead for a boy like Jo with that gold coin given to him by the "servant" girl.  How does he break it?  How does he explain where he got it?