Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 203417 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #520 on: March 23, 2012, 09:45:18 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Model of Parental Deportment
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

VIII
IX
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 Oct. 1852
Nov. 1852


 
 CHAPTERS

23-25
26-29  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

Mar.21-25

 Mar.26-30
 
 Mr. Chadband Improving
a Tought Subject

(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter  XXIII Esther's Narrative
This chapter creates brings back and develops several characters, themes, and subplots.
1. Why does Hortense visit Esther and what is the outcome?
2. What does Esther learn about Richard's status? What is his link to Miss Flite?
3. When Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, Esther says, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time?
4. What are the reactions of Mr. Turveydrop and of Mrs. Jellyby to their learning of Prince's and Caddy's engagement?
5. What do you think of Mr. Jarndyce's "gift" to Esther?

 Chapter XXIV  An Appeal Case
1. What does Mr. Jarndyce ask of Richard and Ada before Richard leaves for his Army post? What is the reaction of everyone?
2. Where has Gridley been staying? What do we learn about Gridley and the affects of the Chancery on him? What is his association with Miss Flite?
3. What do we learn about Mr. Bucket in this chapter?

Chapter XXV  Mrs. Snagsby sees it all
1. What form do Mr. Snagsby's nightmares take, after his dealings with Mr. Bucket?
2. What does Mrs. Snagsby think she "sees"?
3. What kind of a sleuth are we given to understand Mrs. Snagsby will make?

 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  





marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #521 on: March 23, 2012, 10:32:53 AM »
We really do need everyone's thoughts here. There is so much in Dickens that it is easy to miss many details. I'm glad we have so many eyes on this novel. JoanP, I think that by "wale," Jo meant veil.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #522 on: March 23, 2012, 12:06:53 PM »
'We really do need everyone's thoughts here.'

Right on. And that's why I think that most of Dickens' readers were more than barely literate. This writing takes a fair amount of intellegence to enjoy or even to comprehend. Just as it is to appreciate those over-stuffed Victorian drawing rooms. Just trying to figure out who's wearing who's dresses is confusing. Somewhere down this narrative road lies the problem of mistaken identity very likely.

Anyone for Bleak House scenes on their ceiling? What a travesty! Perhaps it's a myth. Who was that again?

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #523 on: March 23, 2012, 12:41:50 PM »
Jude said“Since there are about another 500 pages to go, the Kitchen sink also has a chance of appearing.”  Hilarious, Jude!  I agree!

Mr. Turveydrop and Mrs. Jellyby reacted to their children’s engagement just as I expected they would.  Mr. Turveydrop was most interested in making sure that he would be taken care.  Mrs. Jellyby by could hardly spare time to chastise her daughter about her engagement to Prince instead of to the philanthropic Mr. Quale because she was so busy with her work for Africa.  I found myself thinking of my parents’ reaction to my engagement --- the joy, the smiles, the welcoming handshakes, hugs, and kisses --- and found myself feeling very sad for Caddy and Prince.  At least they have a common bond --- parental disinterest.

JoanP asked: “I wondered too why Esther told Richard he has a noble nature.  What does she see in him that we don't?    Maybe this was wishful thinking on her part - trying to make Richard believe in himself?”

I think you have answered your own question here.  I do think that Esther is just trying to be as supportive and encouraging toward Richard as she possible can.  I think she is worried about his inability to get settled in a profession, and, wanting the best for him, is trying to help in the way she can, which is moral support.

Laura said: "Mr Jarndyce decides to help the Smallweeds."?
Babi said:  “I don't remember that, LAURA; could you please remind me. I so dislike the Smallweeds I hate the idea of Mr. Jarndyce thinking he should help them. No doubt very small-minded of me.”

Babi, I misspoke.  I should have said the Mr. Jarndyce decided to help a member of the Smallweed household.  Charley is not a Smallweed.  Sorry for the confusion.

On a related note, I was interested to read JoanK’s comment“I couldn't remember who ‘Charley’ was until I used the ‘search’ function on my kindle. She's the little daughter of the debt collector who died. The one who was taking care of her even littler siblings.”

I double checked and Charley is also the name of the Smallweed’s servant.  Could it be the same Charley, or is Dicken’s giving the two girls the same name as a sort of symbolism of the poor orphan forced to work to support themselves and siblings?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #524 on: March 23, 2012, 01:12:38 PM »
wale could be it is a dialect printed word for veil - or it could be as it says in the story - wale - ladies corsets that allowed them to wear the hoop skirts with those tight fitting jackets were constructed with wale bones inserted in long thin pockets - I would imagine very few of the poor dressed in fashion wearing 'wale' boned corsets and full hoop skirts so that Jo could be describing a kind of dress - however, he does say bonnet and gown - which makes me think again maybe - hmmm maybe veil is the better interpretation given his accent.

Do you think Dickens is writing a good guy-bad guy story - Seems to me every character has his place in the storyline - he needs all of them - characteristics of each not only move the story along but usually are the metaphor furthering the allegory of the story. Plus, it is too easy to judge the behavior of these characters using today's morals and ethics - there is usually a backstory explaining why a character behaves as they do - if we do not walk in their shoes it would be too easy for us to stereotype conduct based on our lack of familiarity with the times and social economic circumstances for these characters.  

When you look at it the problem some in the story are having with Richard it seems to me it is because he will not cage himself into a role - in his social bracket he is supposed to have his feet on the ground in a profession - and yes, the way women are made dependent on the men it sure limits the young men's ability to try things out - dabble in life - I am remembering my in-laws who went on about not being able to marry for 7 years till he had the kind of dependable income that allowed them to care for themselves and 2 children since that was considered the standard of basic income for a newly wed. And so I can see how in the story that backstory would weigh his and Ada's love for each other as an economic issue rather than an issue of virtue and passion.

And so it is fine and dandy for Esther and others to have their opinion about how Richard is economically preparing to be able to express his love and passion but they are not on the hot seat where Richard sits. In 1852 he cannot have both - a love and time to satisfy his curiosity about life. If he was going to college today he would be one of those students who either changed his major every year or pile his schedule with enough electives to experience the many interests he wants to pursue. Heck, granted a girl but, my daughter received her BA with over 180 hours because she changed her major 4 times - and still had to return to college to finish up and take a full 36 hours in one discipline after she was working for nearly 10 years.

As to his joining the army - seems to me that was considered a noble profession that nearly all upper class men who were not the eldest and therefore, inheriting the estate would join either the army or become a minister and offered a Living. And so his choice to join the army after researching Jarndyce versus Jarndyce would suggest his saying there is only a slim to no chance of inheriting real wealth.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #525 on: March 23, 2012, 01:20:56 PM »
Yes, that Charley thing confused me as well - I thought the debt collectors eldest daughter was Charlotte??
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #526 on: March 23, 2012, 01:37:32 PM »
Re Charley-
Referring back to my wonderful list of Characters(Thank You Joan!) without which I couldn't possibly manage this book, I see that "Charley" is "Charlotte Neckett self reliant daughter of sherrif's officer."
She is the same 13 year old girl taking care of her two younger siblings after their parents death.
She is so happy to be a servant, even for horrible people instead of being a washerwoman and dragging dirty and clean laundry back and forth as she used to do.
A wonderful, uncomplicated character and a positive and happy person. YAY!!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #527 on: March 23, 2012, 01:39:49 PM »
aha - thank you Jude...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #528 on: March 23, 2012, 02:55:19 PM »
I puzzled over "the wale" too. I think it must be "the veil".

" But why the army?  Is he afraid of something?" He may be trying to get away from his creditors. but more likely, he's just running out of professions. Richard is "gentry", the upper class without upper class money but needing to keep up an upper class lifestyle. There were only a few professions that were "acceptable", not considered below their station: the clergy, the law, and the army or navy. Even medicine had only recently been deemed acceptable. I think Richard has already dismissed the clergy out of hand. He doesn't have many choices left.

Politics or a government post might be another choice for him. An early Bertie Wooster.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #529 on: March 23, 2012, 03:03:59 PM »
Who criticized Dickens' views on philanthropy? No one in this discussion. But the labor movement has praised him for drawing attention to the problems of the poor, but then criticized him for thinking that largess from a few rich individuals would solve them rather than higher wages, pensions, health insurance etc.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #530 on: March 23, 2012, 04:25:07 PM »
Yes, JoanK, Richard has about used up his options for "respectable" employment.  He's used up his options in another way too.  The money it will cost to buy his commission and outfit him properly will exhaust his funds.  (I guess money was paid for his apprenticeships to Badger and Kenge and Carboy too.)  He won't have the means to change again.

His conversation about this shows clearly that he is still only half serious, and still thinks of getting money from the settlement of the lawsuit.  Esther provides some dire foreboding when speaking of Richard's friendship with Miss Flite: "But he never thought--never, my poor, dear, sanguine Richard, capable of so much happiness then, and with such better things before him!--what a fatal link was riveting between his fresh youth and her faded age; between his free hopes and her caged birds, and her hungry garret, and her wandering mind."

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #531 on: March 24, 2012, 12:03:36 AM »
Thank you so much for all of the good thinking here.

Jonathan, your insightful posts always make me laugh too. "Just trying to figure out who's wearing who's dresses is confusing." LOL

Laura, Prince and Caddy do share the common bond of their self-interested father and mother, respectively. Somehow, even though they have disfunctional parents, I'm still optimistic about them. They seem very self-reliant.

Barbara, I think that Richard is not so much caged in by having to choose a profession but is caged into the Chancery suit. He can't get it off his mind or out of his life. It seems to me that it is that, rather than a variety of interests, that is caging  him. But I think you bring up a good point that he's expected to provide for his wife, when they marry. She can only look on and hope for the best. If he married a wealthy woman, he likely would not need a profession.

JoanK, yes, Richard hasn't tried politics yet. He seems very amiable. He might do well in that field. Oh, Pat. You bring up an important forewarning with the "fatal link" between Richard and Miss Flite. That does not bode well at all.


Jude, good point about Charley. She is one uncomplicated character in the book, grateful to be where she is.



marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #532 on: March 24, 2012, 02:22:16 AM »
What do you think about Jarndyce asking Richard and Ada to keep their relationship on a "cousin" basis only, when Richard goes into the Army?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #533 on: March 24, 2012, 03:40:21 AM »
Mercie that is what I think of as the cage - having to - not trying things out - but 'having to' - settle down into a profession in order to be considered an upright member of society and to even act on love and passion albeit within societies attitude that you marry. Regardless, his pull towards Jarndyce versus Jarndyce which we guess is all about the money and yet, his life and only hold on who he is is tied to that legal knot. I believe the pull is stronger than the money - it is his only tie to his parents and his heritage.
Quote
I was born into this unfinished contention with all its chances and changes, and it began to unsettle me before I quite knew the difference between a suit at law and a suit of clothes;
The law suit settled allows him a choice of his life's work - he does not have to settle for the military or, the church or, being an apprentice to a profession. He is like a dis-inherited child that does not want to be a remittance man. In another way it is about the money - what I see is, Richard does not believe in himself - as if he is nothing without an inheritance - the inheritance is for him a line of acknowledgment tied up in a law suit.  

In this story I see most folks caged - having to make choices that does not allow much freedom toward a self chosen image for themselves. There are few in this story who are not caged - certainly Skimpole is not caged nor is Peepy caged, traipsing all over London by himself - John Jarndyce appears to be caged, he has a need to see those he helps be accessible to him - Mr. Boythorn does not appear to be caged - however, both Dedlocks are caged - he needing to live up to his families history and heritage and Lady D. is caged by her place in society as an upper class married woman.

Esther is caged within her projected helpfulness that she decided was her acceptance key to society after she buried her doll - to take on a maid on her own would tip the balance so that she would have to open her cage and be a decision maker rather than a competent help to John Jarndyce in Bleak House.

Ada is simply kept - like most women of the period they were caged early. Mr. Turveydrop has built his cage  looking and acting the Dandy - Mrs. Jellyby needs to bury herself with her favorite child, her sympathy for others and as a mover and shaker to her African outreach - Caddy does not appear caged but may be walking into one - she is determined to make a life and play societies games in order to achieve her end - Tulkinghorn is caged by his collection of secrets - without collecting and unraveling secrets he is nothing - On and on we could go as we see the characters that 'need' - without real choice they live the life they are living and are dependent on others for their 'needs' to be met.

I see being 'needy' and 'having to' live a certain way for acceptance and to sooth the neediness as being caged.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

salan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #534 on: March 24, 2012, 06:55:18 AM »
Marking my spot.  Still reading, but am WAY behind...am reading other books in between.
Sally

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #535 on: March 24, 2012, 09:51:59 AM »
 JOANP, I'm reasonably sure it wasn't one of Lady Dedlock's fancier dresses. Probably an
older, plainer outfit, such as one might pass on to the the maid when it goes out of style.
Not that Hortense, in my opinion, would have hesitated to 'borrow' one of the simpler
dresses for the purpose of the 'scam'.  You may well be right that it is the same one Lady
Dedlock 'borrowed'.  I'd love to re-read that passage myself, but I no longer have the book.
I'm sailing on 'notes' and a memory daily refreshed here.

 Oh, thank you, LAURA. Charley, the maid, yes! And what a happy thought for both Charley
and Esther. In my mind, they suit one another perfectly. Bot very giving and caring people.
And yes, I'm sure it's the same Charley. That was the employment she found, poor girl.

 That was what I was asking, JOANK. I didn't think one of our posters had criticized Dickens'
views on philanthropy. I can understand the labor movement's view and of course, they are
correct. But was this a labor movement of Dicken's day, or modern times? I do need to go
do some research there. Wouldn't Dickens have supported such a labor movement if there had
been one?

 Too true, PatH. The comparison to Miss Flite pretty much sounded like a grim forecast to
me, too.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #536 on: March 24, 2012, 09:56:04 AM »
 I couldn't put this bit in my last post.  I get to a certain point and the whole thing starts jumping
when I try to type.

 MARCIE,  it seemed to me that Mr. Jarndyce's request that Richard and Ada remain on a 'cousins' basis for the time being was prudent.  Fond as he was of Richard, he had a guardian's
responsibility to Ada as well as a strong affection.  Richard, as he is, would seem to me a very
poor prospective husband  and I would also be cautious as Ada's guardian.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #537 on: March 24, 2012, 10:09:15 AM »
PS: (me again)  I did a quick search on the history of the labor (labour) movement and found
this:

  In Europe, the labour movement began during the industrial revolution, when agricultural jobs declined and employment moved to more industrial areas. The idea met with great resistance. In the 18th century and early 19th century, groups such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs of Dorset were punished and transported for forming unions, which was against the laws of the time.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

pedln

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #538 on: March 24, 2012, 12:37:45 PM »
I’m finally caught up and then some.  And forever grateful to your posts here, which help connect everything.

Quote
that bit about Hortense wanting to be Esther's maid seemed to me an attempt to find a way to get back at Lady Dedlock. She certainly noticed  Lady D's interest in Esther and she strikes me as a very spiteful, vengeful personality.

Babi, do you think Hortense would try to harm Esther if she thinks that would cause distress for Lady D.?


Mabel/Jean posted this link in The Library and I could only think of Dickens while reading it.  Our reading and discussion, and also all those 1850s followers of Bleak House.  Made me wonder if Dickens’ physical description of the Smallweeds is what makes us all dislike them so much.

Fiction and the Brain

Quote
The novel, of course, is an unequaled medium for the exploration of human social and emotional life. And there is evidence that just as the brain responds to depictions of smells and textures and movements as if they were the real thing, so it treats the interactions among fictional characters as something like real-life social encounters
.

I’ve got to reread that Hotense/Tulkinghorn section.  I thought Hortense was wearing her own dress because that was what Lady D wore when she was with Jo.

JoanK,  I agree with you about Richard’s choices.  What else is there for someone like him, poor, but well-bred.  He has already strongly stated that he does not want the church.

Babi and Marcie, do you think Mr. J hopes that the Richard – Ada romance  will fade after Richard leaves for his tour of duty?  Mr J can’t help but wonder how long Richard will want to stay in the army.  Perhaps Ada will have a chance to meet some other young men.

What a surprise to find the Mrs. Chadband  is one and the same as Esther’s godmother’s housekeeper.  I wonder what secrets she  has.



JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #539 on: March 24, 2012, 01:35:15 PM »
Pedlin
Two different people sent me that article on Fiction and the Brain from the N.Y.Times re: Fiction and the Brain. Interesting but not world shaking.

Barb St. Aubrey
You wrote "Mr Boythorn does not appear to be caged."
That took me by surprise because the price he pays for not being caged is so extremely high.  He is alone except for a servant. He has no relatives, very few old friends.
There are different kinds of cages -some are large and full of animals of ones own kind, some are small and cramped, some of them provide comfort and succor while others deprive the one inside of all the amenities that he craves. To many being caged is the only life they know. You have hit upon an important philosophical thread in your last remarks. And like most philosophical ideas it can be interpreted in many ways.

Your post also put me in a certain frame.  This is what I saw:
Mr Dickens sits before a large table with his blue papers and his lists.  There are about fifty small and large boxes on the table.  All of them closed. Mr. D is thinking to himself 'Who should I let out this month? He thinks and opens up a box and the character pops out and stands next to him , like a puppet waiting to be animated by its creator.I will mix him with her. he thinks. Then he opens another box and thinks" they are not expecting that one in this scenario"he smiles to himself and opens another box.  Onward and onward. Connecting them all with beautiful Poetic Prose that makes reading the book worth while. 

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #540 on: March 24, 2012, 01:44:20 PM »
Jude, I really like your scenario of dickens writing, especially "they are not expecting that one in this scenario".  :)

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #541 on: March 24, 2012, 02:14:24 PM »
It was definitely Hortense's dress that Lady Dedlock wore when she got Jo to take her around.  In that scene much is made of the inconsistency between her "plain dress"--"She should be an upper servant by her attire"--and her refined, lady-like manner.

We read of it second, but I suspect Hortense approached Esther before going to London and getting in touch with Tulkinghorn.  It happened before Esther left the neighborhood of Chesney Wold, and it would be a big deal for Hortense to come back there.  She started out by thinking to get her revenge through Esther, and when that didn't work, cast her net wider.

I wondered what she meant by describing Lady D and herself as "high".  Best-fitting definition in the Oxford English Dictionary is "haughty, pretentious, arrogant, overbearing; wrathful, angry".

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #542 on: March 24, 2012, 02:15:59 PM »
Yes, I too like the image I get of Dickens facing his boxes - and I need to say that to me being caged or not is not a good or bad thing - it is simply a way you look at life and some live attached to satisfying their needs and others live with little attachment to satisfying a need - in fact if you look at the characters in this story that I do not think are caged they are all on their own - Peepy is alone walking where ever he chooses - Skimpole has all but abandoned his family and it does not sound like he and his wife are the lovers of the century - and as you point out Mr Boythorn does not seem to have any attachment to family and friends - although, with his friendly way I wonder if there is more to his life that in not included in the story since the story is not centered around him. However, like those who are not caged they make each life choice not to satisfy someone or their view of society expectations or because of social circumstances that ties them to behavior any of which says they 'have to''... With that I see it is more difficult to find their hot button to persuade or seduce them to do things or think things.

I think this is the high wire Richard is walking - he does not want to be caged and thinks once he establishes his rightful place in society based in heritage and in money he can be free to make his own decisions - so he is caged in the sense he is 'needing' that recognition and as generous as John Jarndyce is he not only would be beholden to him but what JJ wants Richard to focus on would make Richard feel like a pop gun with a string attaching him to the gun where as, he wants to be like a planet or moon - separate but orbiting something that represents his heritage and acknowledged place.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #543 on: March 24, 2012, 03:10:23 PM »
I think so too. Lady Dedlock borrowed her servant's dress when she went out looking for Jo. Including the 'wale'. It's Jo's term. When they meet Jo stares 'moodily at the veil', with a 'suspicion of her being a lady'. She has already been described, on the same page (276) by the narrator as having the appearance of 'an upper servant by her attire, yet, in her air and step she is a lady'. The 'plain dress and her refined manner...something exceedingly inconsistent.

Richard is overheard saying, when the case is settled I'll be provided for. Laboring over all those Jarndyce files has at least left him with that hope. That's what sickens his cousin John.

Dickens and philanthropy is an interesting question. It seems to me he comes down hard on those who practice it professionally to get social recognition or soothe their consciences. Help the poor and needy.

Sometimes, I think, Dickens comes between his characters and his readers. I have sympathy where he cariciturizes. Mrs Jellybe is geuinely public spirited. Mr Turveydrop is right about appearance being given a high priority.

What a book. My feeling is that everything we are seeing and hearing may be used as evidence later on.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #544 on: March 24, 2012, 05:08:17 PM »
Jonathan,  you say "What a book. My feeling is that everything we are seeing and hearing may be used as evidence later on." You continue to keep me on my toes with your posts.

Jude, I too can picture your idea of Dickens reviewing his boxes of characters and planning which one  he will pop out in each chapter.

Babi, you indicate that it is prudent of Ada's guardian to ask Richard and her to remain on a 'cousins' basis for now. Barbara, if I understand your post, you think that Richard would be able to make good decisions about  his life when/if the Chancery suit is settled. Pedln, I hadn't thought it through but it makes sense that Jarndyce might think that Richard's and Ada's love for one another might fade if they are apart. Richard is not steadfast in his choices of profession.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #545 on: March 24, 2012, 05:14:24 PM »
My feeling is that everything we are seeing and hearing may be used as evidence later on.
Well put, Jonathan, I think you're right.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #546 on: March 24, 2012, 05:42:05 PM »
So...every time we meet a new character, we should assume that he/she is introduced for a reason - and we will meet them in the future.  Jonathan, I'd like to hear more about Dickens coming between his characters and his readers.  I find that idea fascinating...I can't imagine an author purposedly doing such a thing.

 I am amused at the image of Dickens sitting at this desk with closed boxes of blue pages, deciding which to let out into the next installment, Jude.  When I read your post describing Dickens at work, I immediately thought olf Mr. Tulkinghorn- someone else with many closed boxes...full of secrets he has gathered on many of the people associated with the Chancery.  In some ways he is like Dickens - he can turn to the secret information he has compiled whenever he needs to use it.  He seems to be deeply involved with a wide range of such people, not just the rich clients like the Dedlocks. Take Gridley for example.  Why the animosity towards this poor broken man?  I cannot imagine how Tulkinghorn  is connected to them -  That's what makes this fun - watching Dickens mind at work. He seems to be enjoying himself, don't you think?  
.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #547 on: March 24, 2012, 06:16:53 PM »
Barbara, great thoughts on characters being caged.

Marcie asked:  “What do you think about Jarndyce asking Richard and Ada to keep their relationship on a "cousin" basis only, when Richard goes into the Army?”

I was surprised by the request, but admired Mr. Jarndyce for taking such a bold step.  Richard needs a wake up call.  Maybe this will be it.  On the flip side, Ada could have other suitors if she was “free of” Richard…

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #548 on: March 24, 2012, 06:20:22 PM »
Barbara do you see Tulkinghorn as one of the "caged"?  I've been looking at the "caged"  in terms of Miss Flite's birds.  They are constantly threatened by Krook's cat, Lady Jane,  who lurks at the door, waiting for the right moment to slip in and take advantage.  They aren't the first birds we've seen in the story, nor is Krook's the first cat.  I'm looking at cats as predators on the meek and helpless.  Those in cages - as Barb describes are vulnerable to the designs of those who plot against them.

Wasn't Hortense described as a cat? - Somewhere I wrote a list of the adjectives used to describe her. And there's  Smallweed, "clawing and scratching" whenever he faces opposition.  I hope I never see that character again.  

Esther is free from the bars of a cage - both physically and psychologically.   I don't see her desire to care for others as  confining, Barbara.  I find her quite content in her own skin - constantly surprised that she is taken seriously, feeling more and more freedom to speak her mind.
It's Ada that is confined - and helpless.  Caged.  What does she do all day?   Why does she get up in the morning?
What is her raison d'etre?  Pedln, I share your hope that she will find someone else - but don't see that happening in the  small space that is her life.  And yet the poor thing tells Richard she'll be faithful at home waiting his return - but did I hear her tell him she'd understand if he found someone else.

Richard didn't take his Guardian's decision very badly at all.  Hardly gave it more than a passing thought.
Esther tells us -
Quote
"he remembered her by fits and starts, even with bursts of tears...but in a few minutes he would recklessly conjure up some undefinable means, by which they were both made to be made rich and happy for ever, and would become as gay as ever."

It occurred to me that the "terror" on Jarndyce's face when Richard expressed confidence in a positive outcome of the case - - that perhaps Jarndyce knows something more - and knows that Richard will not benefit from the outcome if it is ever decided.  But that's in another little box on Dickens' table, isn't it Jude?

"wale" - yes, I see "veil" now - I forgot it was Jo talking and he'd pronounce it like that, I'll bet.

Pedln glad you have caught up.  We've missed you..
I agree, it was a bit too much to learn that Mrs. Chadband  is one and the same as Esther’s godmother’s housekeeper, Rachael.  Clever of Dickens to insert her into the parlor with Jo, who has seen "the lady" - and with Guppy, who jumps at the news that Mrs. Chadband cared for Esther Summerson when a baby. ...Yes, I wonder too what information Mrs. Chadband is going to reveal - when Dickens is ready to take her out of one of his boxes... :D



 I hope Sally listens to you when you say the posts helped to connect everything. Sally, as you read, go back to the posts that address the chapter you are on - I think you'll be surprised how much this helps you to understand - and catch up.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #549 on: March 24, 2012, 09:12:22 PM »
I'm glad you're catching up to us, Sally.

Yes, I hadn't given enough attention to mrs. Flite's birds: caged as long as the lawsuit is going on, but due to be free when it's settled. And what were the names of the tings that she is going to free?

Richard's point of view, exactly. And yet, look what Richard does with his spare time (freedom?) when he decides law is not for him: gambles and gets into heavy debt. Bodes very ill for the future: inheritance or no.

We all had to make that decision at various points in our lives: what we would do with our lives (in fact, we make it every day!). Do we feel caged? Are we?

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #550 on: March 25, 2012, 01:33:14 AM »
JoanP, I don't think that Jarndyce knows anything specific about the outcome of the court case. I believe that his look of terror when Richard can't get it off his mind is because of "Tom" who killed himself over it. Was it Jarndyce who found his body? Jarndyce doesn't want to think about the case at all. He thinks it is the ruin of people to do so.

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #551 on: March 25, 2012, 02:03:53 AM »
Marcie
I agree with you. A person who finds one person dead of suicide will always suspect that someone else with the same problem is another possible victim to suicide.Therefore he would not want Richard depending on the determinatiion of the Court case for his fortune or his future.

If Freud himself was influenced by reading Dickens it shows that D. had an innate understanding of human nature. I mentioned this before but Dostoyevski also was deeply impressed by D. and came to England specifically to meet him. Dostoyevski was the master of the psychological novel
and if he was deeply influenced we must accept the fact that D. really understood the human soul, for better or for worse.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #552 on: March 25, 2012, 07:16:49 AM »
Quote
"If Freud himself was influenced by reading Dickens it shows that D. had an innate understanding of human nature."

Jude, I agree with you completely - and this is the reason I have to beleive there is more to John Jarndyce than what we have seen so far.  He is way to good to be true.  He knows more than he has been letting on.   It is almost as if Dickens is waiting for just the right moment to introduce the real John Jarndyce. 

Don't you love the way Dickens pulls all of these characters into these big scenes?  I'm looking forward to the  film adapatation of Gridley's death scene in the Shooting Gallery.  We see Mr. George leading Miss Flite - and Esther into the gallery  - along with Mr. Bucket, disguised as an elderly doctor with a warrant Gridley's arrest.  Gridley who lies dying - his last request to see - Miss Flite, of all people.  Richard is there too, isn't he?  And of course, John Jarndyce.

Gridley to Jarndyce - "You are a good man, superior to injustice..."   
There was a lot said regarding the injustice of the Chancery, something shared by Gridley and Miss Flite.  More questions than answers, though?   Above all, why has Tulkinghorn issued this new warrant for Gridley's arrest?  How can Gridley be of interest to this man - unless he's somehow connected to something much bigger than we have seen so far.  Do we learn  anything more about Miss Flite's suit? 

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #553 on: March 25, 2012, 09:56:35 AM »
I think Tulkinghorn wanted Gridley arrested because Gridley threatened him with bodily harm.  It's not the first time, either.  Bucket tries to rally Gridley's spirits by saying:  "Don't you remember when you first began to threaten the lawyers, and the peace was sworn against you two or three times a week?"

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #554 on: March 25, 2012, 10:47:50 AM »
 I don't know, PEDLN. I can't imagine Hortense physically attacking Esther, but I suspect
she is perfectly capable of harming her in other ways.
  I think Mr. Jarndyce is simply trying to protect Ada as best he can. He doesn't want any
commitments made that she might regret later.

 
Quote
[the brain] treats the interactions among fictional characters as something like real-life
social encounters.
  Oh, my, yes. I vividly recall my grandmother becoming so involved with the characters in her favorite soap opera, that she would become distraught with anxiety
when one of them was going through a crisis...which was about every day!

  I believe Tulkinghorn put out a warrant for Gridley's arrest because Gridley had dared to
approach him and rave at him. He was determined to punish Gridley's insolence, and the warrant would likely be for assault. As PAT notes, it wouldn't be the first time.
  The scene of Gridley's death is a sad one. It really seems, though, to be a release he
might have been grateful for.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #555 on: March 25, 2012, 10:48:17 AM »
Inspector Bucket is certainly willing to go to great lengths to get his man.  He is described as stout and middle-aged, but he climbs on the roof of the shooting gallery to peer through the skylight and find Gridley.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #556 on: March 25, 2012, 12:13:31 PM »
'That's what makes this fun - watching Dickens mind at work. He seems to be enjoying himself, don't you think?' JoanP - 546

Yes, I had something like that in mind regarding Dickens' charming narrative style. He's not only grandly ominscient, but intrusive as well. I can imagine some of the characters objecting to what is said about them. I'll look for examples. The author gets closer to the readers too, I'll guess.

What did Freud find in Dickens? Or Dostoyevsky? Artistry and creativity, I believe. Just as Engels must have read him too when he was writing about the English working class about the same time.

I had more to say, much more, but I'm called to lunch. Very stimulating posts. Dickens ties himself in knots with the figurative use of cages. I believe.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #557 on: March 25, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »
PatH - it seems we can't go by any of the descriptions of Mr. Bucket. He's a quick change artist.  The doctor disguise was a good example.  Dickens had us seeing an elderly doctor at the door of the Shooting Gallery.   I'm wondering how old he really is.  This man has a heart of gold -  He is too good, too soft for a police detective working as he does among the poor and the criminals.  And yet, he doesn't let the bad guys get away.  He reiminds me of Kojak in the old TV series.   For some reason, I find him more believable - and more likable than John Jarndyce.  Even though Jarndyce is shown performing countless acts of charity.  Perhaps it is because Dickens hasn't let us in on what makes Jarndyce tick yet.
 
If you have to name the most admirable character in the novel so far...the one Dickens is holding up as a paragon of virtue, who would you nominate?  Right now,   I'd select Mr. Bucket - and Esther too, of course.  

The last scene?  As Gridley lay dying - Bucket tries to rally him - tempts him to come to court and have a good angry argument before the Magistrates.  Invites him to fight with him... "to drop him right and left..."    Although he wasn't really trying to rally him, was he?  He knew he was dying...wasn't he just trying tohelp him in his last moments.

I read the last paragraph in chapter XXIV several times, trying to figure out who was speaking.  Is Esther remembering Gridley's dying words?

"But to me, the shadow of that pair, one living and one dead, fell heavier on Richard's departure  than the darkest night.  And through Richard's farewell words, I head it echoed:

Quote
"Of all my old associations of all my old pursuits and hopes, of all the living and the dead world, this one poor soul alone comes natural to me, and I am fit for.  There is a tie of many suffering years between us two, and it is the only tie I ever had on earth that Chancery has not broken."

Jonathan, will look for you after lunch - and perhaps a nap...

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #558 on: March 25, 2012, 03:32:15 PM »
Jonathan
You threw in the name of Engels in your post.
I just spent the past hour finding out how little I knew about this important personage.
Thank you for bringing me to understand how many worlds intertwined with that of Dickens.
 How true it is "that no man is an island".

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #559 on: March 25, 2012, 03:41:37 PM »

I read the last paragraph in chapter XXIV several times, trying to figure out who was speaking.  Is Esther remembering Gridley's dying words?

Yes, almost his last.  It's what Gridley says when Miss Flite comes in, though he does say a bit more.