Author Topic: Women in Greek Drama  (Read 81497 times)

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #120 on: May 18, 2012, 08:55:26 AM »

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!


Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online


Antigone

Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
            Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half


Questions for the first half:

1) Antigone and Ismene are opposites in bravery and defiance.  Why?  In which sister do you see yourself?

2) In its first appearance, what is the chorus describing in fanciful terms? Who or what is the "he" referred to?

3) What sort of ruler will Creon be?  What clues do we have?

4) Where do we see evidence for the powerlessness and low status of women?

5) Both Creon and Antigone defend their positions in terms of high ethical values. What are these values? Which do you find most compelling? Would compromise have been possible? Why or why not?

6) Fagles points out that over the millennia over which this play has been  produced, the opinion of the audience would have changed as to who was right: Antigone or Creon. Do you think that opinion would have changed over our lifetime? In different parts of the world?

7) Have you ever been in a situation where two deeply-held ethical principles were in conflict? How was it resolved?  

DLs: JoanK and PatH


JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #121 on: May 18, 2012, 02:17:50 PM »
Lets look at the arguments of the play, in Fagles translation (which I find very beautiful.

Here is Creon: "whoever places a friend above the good of his own country, he is nothing:....

 our country is our safety. Only when she voyages true on course
can  we establish friendships truer than blood itself.
Such are my standards. They make our city great.

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2012, 02:26:24 PM »
And here is Antigone:

Creon: ... you had the gall to break this law?

Antigone: Of course I did. It wasn't Zeus, ...
who made this proclamation-- not to me.
Nor did that Justice, dwelling with the Gods
beneath the earth, ordain such laws for men.
Nor did I think your edict had such force
That you, a mere mortal, could override the gods,
The great unwritten, unshakable traditions.
They are alive, not just today or yesterday
they live forever, from the first of time,
And no one knows when they first saw the light.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #123 on: May 18, 2012, 03:29:18 PM »
OK - ha I seem to start with an OK whenever I gave something some thought and I offer the outcome, which to me is simply organizing where I am at. And so, OK - here is what I think - there are no bad-guys in this scenario.

Creon is leader and protector of Thebes - I think like many leaders - we need them - they are in the position by birth or strength shown during a trial like a battle or appointed or they are elected -  we are really judging them by how they lead not that they have the power to lead. Like all men some act in ways that uplift us and other act to uplift themselves to the disadvantage of those they hold in their power.

Some quotes that add up to me that Creon is a leader with the welfare of the community first.

the gods have set right again
our city's affairs, after shaking them
in a storm,


he continues to heap praise on the men assembled to hear him acknowledging their devotion to

you always revered the power of
Laius' throne; then, both when Oedipus saved
the city and when he fell, you stood in
consistent support of their children.


he states his case why he is the chosen leader and the biggie, how is a man measured in a position of leadership.

Now I hold
sole power and the throne, because I am
the closest relative of the fallen.


It is impossible to know the soul,
the mind, and character of any man,
until he has proven himself in the law.
For if someone rules an entire city
and does not take hold of the best counsels,
but holds his tongue out of fear, I think him
to be the worst of men, now and always;
and the man who considers more important
than his fatherland his friend
, I think him
worthless.


So leadership of a city means taking best counsel - not saying what is needed out of fear - putting a love of the city above individual friendship.

here he says it...

I would never be silent
if I saw madness creeping among
the citizens in place of salvation,
nor would I consider an enemy
of my country a friend to myself
,
recognizing this: that my country is
safety itself
, and only when she is upright
can our sailing find friends. With laws like these
I will make our city grow.


Today, we do not want to see and we feel betrayed when leadership allows, for instance, the madness on Wall Street to continue - For us we have leadership spread among more than one which means, one leader cannot attend to madness as Creon could in history - We would not want to see our national leadership making friends with our enemy - The Taliban is not an easy black and white enemy as in our recent past we had the Soviet Russia as an enemy. Nations consolidated their borders, their power, and safety for their citizens because of an enemy. Leaders are urged to provide an upright, safe place with laws that allowed growth.

Our nation was built on individual rights being more important that community rights. The cases that hit the Supreme Court are most often about the individual versus a community which is why so many are outraged that a corporation is now declared an individual. And so, the case of Antigone versus Creon would be brought to court based on the needs and rights of the Individual versus the Community, with Creon the leader of that community.

Ok more to say but another post is probably best...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »
Looking at the four siblings and the dynamics that pits Antigone against the leader of her community, I thought that the rational in the play, regardless it was the dead souls expectations or, religious practices or willful braggadocio or, a timid response was all beside the point. These issues and practices were simply part of the story to make an impact on the audience given what values were elevated in importance and shared by most folks at the time.  

I am going back a bit from Nazi control to something a bit closer to home - A father has a successful plantation say in Virginia - he sends his twin sons to West Point and upon completion of their education, they come home. When he dies, he wills that the two sons are to inherit and take turns managing the plantation controlling the profits only from the year they managed the plantation.

The first year - let's even give him and excuse - it rained all summer and the cotton could not be picked and they had no other cash crop - so he wants to stay and the brother gets angry. Rather than taking it out on his brother he angrily leaves to set up a trading business in the north - say NYC - He is welcomed and meets all sorts of powerful men - they ply him with drinks because he is going to make them all rich. He feels welcomed and supported.

The Civil War starts - the brothers are both made Generals with their West Point background - the face each other in battle somewhere in say the border of western Virginia or maybe Tennessee - where ever it really does not matter but somewhere very close to southern territory that is lost to the north when the brothers clash and both end up killed. General Lee buries the brother from the south with all the pomp that can be imagined that was still available during the early days of the war - and he leaves the union soldiers killed, including the general on the field of battle that is now in the hands of the enemy, the north. Similar to the battle of the Seven Gates to the Thebes took place outside the city.

Of course, a loving sister is going to risk life and limb to sneak into enemy territory, find her brother's body and bury it - the other sister is saying no, we must live for the future - let's give her a purpose and say the plantation house is now a hospital and they must take care of the living.

Of course, the sister who cannot sleep knowing her brother is lying somewhere in a field of mud and insects must be strong and sound like a Joan of Arc to her spirit to risk such a scary exploit. She is going into enemy territory to risk being captured and dragged into some prison or killed by a quick-fingered Yank.

Of course, the other sister is scared for her however, she believes in the authority of leadership and Robert E. Lee is the leader who was coalescing his power in order to strengthen his army by reducing the enemy with the disrespect worthy of villains. She also knows that her safety as a woman during war means she must cling to her community and the laws of her community for protection.  

As Ismene explains...

And now the two of us, left all alone—
think how very horribly we will die
if we go against the king's decree and strength
outside the law. Rather, consider that we
were born women
, proving we should not fight with men,
and that we are ruled by more powerful people
and must obey them, even in more painful things.
Therefore I ask forgiveness from those below,
as I am forced to in these matters, and yield
to those who walk with authority
.
For to do excessive things is nonsense.


There is value in each of their purposes - Many authors remind us of the ambiguities in life and this to me is an early example of just that. There does not seem to me to be a villain - they each have a just rational for their behavior that makes us all question "do no harm" - sometimes the choices are either not seen because of your own just purpose in life or sometimes there is no win-win without a great deal of compassion for each other.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2012, 04:57:16 PM »
These guards here have been bribed—I can see that
clearly—by such men to do this, for no
institution has so harmed humanity
as the creation of money. It's destroyed
even cities, it has expelled men from
their homes; it teaches the minds of honest
men to deviate and take up foul things.
It has shown men how to be villainous
and to know every sort of godlessness.


Reminds me of lobbyists sprinkling freely money and gifts to Congress as so called re-election funds in order to bribe their allegiance and vote to their way of thinking regardless the good of the city and its people.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #126 on: May 18, 2012, 05:03:07 PM »
Of course he has to bluster - what else can he do and still show leadership with the way power is so one sided - these are the folks who are supposed to keep folks in-line and see to anyone not obeying the law - reminds us of other leaders caught in trying to consolidate power much like the leaders of a modern army would shoot deserters to keep everyone in-line.

unless you find the culprit of this tomb
and bring him before these eyes of mine,
Death alone will not protect you:
you'll all be hanged alive to demonstrate
your insolent crime, so the rest of your lives
you may steal, knowing once and for all
what sort of reward it brings, and learn that
we must not love all profit equally.
For you should know that more men suffer
from shameful gains than are saved by them.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #127 on: May 18, 2012, 09:58:41 PM »
Wow they are like two ships ramming into each other - they each speak from the power of their conviction - his leadership is on the line along with his reputation and her life is on the line. She taunts him and he threatens her flexing his power by enlarging her circle of disobedience by bringing her sister into the act.

Antigone ridicules him with...
to have acted foolishly, then perhaps
I owe my foolishness to a fool.


He flexes his power and justifies his come-back at her.

no one is allowed to think big thoughts,
if he is another man's slave.

She showed
herself capable of insolence then,

to exult in her deed and
laugh that she had done it.
going beyond the laws put before her.


And the clash in his heart and mind of identity as a leader - He must act against his niece in order to maintain leadership that is his responsibility in order to bring safety and growth to the city.

Now I am no man,
but she is a man, if power lies with her
with impunity.


She left him no loophole - she was not even chaste in her acknowledging her act of defiance. And now, in keeping with his bluster, that we saw earlier and now we see is part of his personality or at least way of leading, he enlarges the deed unnecessarily by bring the sister as equal in plotting this burial.

And then, like a wound-up dervish she keeps up her attack since all she has left is her rage and her honor to her brother.

Do you want something more than killing me?

And she's got him and he knows it... her tyranny will be the talk of the city. Wow this is gut wrenchingly better than Thoreau's Civil Disobedience, Lech Wałęsa, Rosa Parker, Saint-Just and Marie Jean Hérault de Séchelles authors of Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen of 1793

And yet, could my fame be more gloriously
established than by placing my brother
in a tomb? I think all these people would
agree, if fear did not hold their tongues.
Tyranny is lucky in many ways,
above all in doing and saying what it will.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2012, 10:10:01 PM »
Ok I will shut up - this is some story - it has me by the tail - obviously... wish there were others around with their comments and thoughts - I will check in tomorrow.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2012, 10:57:49 PM »
I'm not ignoring you, Barb, I'm chewing it over.  I'll be in tomorrow.

HaroldArnold

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2012, 11:02:00 PM »
I remember seeing a production of Jean Anouilh’s version of Antigone in Austin, Texas sometime about November 1948.  It was a project staged by the University of Texas Drama department.  This version of the ancient Greek drama had been written by Jean Anouilh and actually staged in Nazi occupied Paris in 1944.  Perhaps the allowing of this staging was an early manifestation of the German Commander in Paris’ anti-Nazi feelings.  Remember he later ignored Hitler’s direct order to destroy Paris.  When the UT Drama Department produced this play on the Austin campus, I don’t believe it had yet been done in either New York or London.
  
This was my introduction to Greek drama and I was certainly impressed.  Particularly I found it easy to understand with its modern 20th century settings with Creon more a modern dictator than ancient Greek king.  All the characters wore familiar 20th century business dress.  I was certainly impressed by the drama of the staged conflict between the unyielding positions of King Creon in contrast with Antigone and the “I don’t care” position of her sister and other characters, particularly the policemen.

Though this play would be far too ambitious as a project of our Chandler House Players, Reader’s Theater group, perhaps we might arrange a reading of the last act dialog between Antigone and Creon.  I would love the Creon part and we have at least 2 candidates flor Antigone.    

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Anouilh 

straudetwo

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #131 on: May 19, 2012, 01:00:43 AM »
Babi and Barbara,

Excellent points,  well reasoned, and a plausible analogy.  At this crucial point in the story it might be useful to consult Edith Hamilton to find out more about Creon, a stern, obviously feared leader.

Creon's Greek name is Kreon and means 'ruler'. He was the brother of Queen Jocasta and the brother-in-law of King Laius of Thebes.  Laius had been warned by the Oracle at Apollo's Temple at Delphi not to have a child with Jocasta because he would die by that child's hand.  But Jocasta did have a son. To evade the prophecy Laius asked a servant to bind the infant's feet and ankles and leave it to die on the mountain side.  Thanks to the compassion of strangers the child, named Oedpus, lived; the prophecy was fulfilled years later even though neither man knew who the strangers were.

In Laius' absence, Creon became regent in Thebes.  Then word came of his and his companions' death at the hanadd of robbers. . Thebes was in sore straits,  it had been invaded by the Sphyinx, a monster shaped like a winged lion but with the breast and face of a woman, lying in wait for the wayfarers on the roads near the city.

Oedipus was raised by the King and Queen of Corinth as their son. When he grew older he heard a rumor that he was adopted, and when old enough,decided to ask the Oracle at Delphi about his parents. He was told that he was destined to murder his father and marry his mother.   Like Laius had, Oedipus thought it possible to obviate this by never going  back to Corinth. His wanderings brought him to Thebes.  The Sphinx waylaid him and asked him the riddle which  no one had been able to answer :"What has four feet in the morning, two at noon, and three in the evening ?" and Oedipus said "Man", whereupon the Sphinx, inexplicably and most fortunately, killed herself.  The citizens were grateful and made him their king, and he married the dead king's widow, Jocasta.  They lived happily and had four children, two daughterrs and two sons. 
Then a terrible plague came on to the country; men died, flocks and herds were decimated, no crops were growing; famine seemed unavoidable.  Nobody suffered more than Oedipus.  He sent Creon to Delphi to implore the god's help.  Creon came back with good news. Apollo had told him the plague would be stayed on one condition : Whoever had killed Laius must be punished.  Oedipus was enormously relieved and set out to find the murderer. He sent for the seer Teresias who  at first refused to answer.  When Oedipus pressed him at length, the prophet told him he himself was the murderer he was seeking.  Oedipus was  indignant and banished the prophet from his sight forever.

It is a long story and we know how it ended. Word came of the death of the King of Corinth, who had not been Oedipu real father.  And the man was found who had taken the infant from the shepherd and given him to the King and Queen of Corinth. In the face of this overwhelming tragedy Jocasta killed herself,  Oedipus blinded himself. He resigned the throne,  the elder son, Polyneices, did not want it.  Creon became the regent.
Oedipus continued to live in Thebes; his sons were well liked by the citizens, and both daughters were all a father could desire.  Eventually, however, Oedipus was driven out of the city.  Antigone accompanied her father to guide him; Ismene stayed behind.
When Oedipus was gone, the sons asserted their rights to the throne, both trying to be made king. Eteocles succeeded even though he was the younger. He then expelled his brother from Thebes. Polyneices sought refuge in Argos. It was his intention to assemble an army and march against Thebes.

As Antigone opens, we hear about the battle that raged for a long time without a decisive outcome --  until  at last the brothers  fell upon each other, each killing the other. The field was littered with casualties, but Eteiocles was hailed by Creon as  hero and defender of the city, and Thebes declared the winner. Creon, , in control, proclaimed that none of the dead who had fought against Thebes must be give a burial, inasmuch as they were traitors.

This account is excerpted from Edith Hamilton's Mythology, pp. 375-387. I have left out the rest of Oedipus' life in Colonus and his peaceful death, after which Antigone returned to Thebes.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #132 on: May 19, 2012, 01:25:59 AM »
Great Idea Harold - having a reading - and wow to have seen the Anouilh version at UT - thanks for the link telling us more about Anouilh - what wonders we have in our memories - I am thinking that his version transfered to Nazi control also shows Creon as a tyrant to a less powerful Antigone -

I have not read the entire play so there is still room to change my opinion however, for now I still see them both tyrants using all their power, both being unreasonable, she being as cruel to him giving him no way to go easy on her, each trying to force what they each value as their life's work. Antigone, to honor her beloved brother regardless, his adult behavior - blood is thicker - and Creon, to bring about, even if it means forcing the citizenry into, a safe, protected, lawful city that is capable of growth.

Thanks for the history straudetwo - bottom line, Thebes is not a democratic city and so a leader's view for a city is what leadership is all about. Creon may have been sterner however, he had to develop loyalty after a much loved Oedipus and he had to do it quickly since he had no idea if the folks from Argos would be back to storm the gates. I think like a general in the field he had to demand - it is never a popular way of leading but then if you look at Antigone - if it helps forget she is a woman - she is going toe to toe with him - she does not have his power, no one has his power - but we are seeing both use the power they have to try and force the other into what they each think is appropriate behavior and understanding.

I think we in the USA like France was and is a democracy where folks are used to having their viewpoint heard and worked into the community laws and direction for growth. I can see how the play could fit many scenarios however, When France had to deal with the Nazis - the Nazis were not trying to control for the growth and safety of the French, they wanted France as a controlled buffer and extension of Germany. Creon does not sound like he wants to control Argos and make it an extension of Thebes.

Oh dear - all I can do is say reading the play this is my viewpoint - do we have to agree - can I see them both as tyrants and speak from that view - if you see something else in the play that is fine - I see this man having to make himself quickly a strong leader with no one crowing him with glory - the past kings were beloved but were about their own life dramas and not saying to the people - behold my much loved cousin or uncle, Creon - love and honor him as you have honored me and my boys.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #133 on: May 19, 2012, 09:24:06 AM »
 Creon's 'argument' for 'the good of his country' sounds great. I'm just not sure how
refusing to bury a dead enemy contributes to that good. I thought Antigone made the
stronger point that a 'mere mortal' could not "override the gods, The great unwritten,
unshakable traditions. They are alive, not just today or yesterday
they live forever,...."


BARB, you make an excellent argument for Creon. In principle, I agree with what he
said.  It's simply that using that as an argument for not burying his nephew does not
seem valid. How does that constitute "madness" creeping among the people?  
 I like your quote from Ismene. "Therefore I ask forgiveness from those below,
as I am forced to in these matters, and yield to those who walk with authority."
She makes a valid point as to the subordinate position of women, and that one could
ask forgiveness from 'those below'.  Antigone, however, as I said before, has visions
of a glorious defiance.

Quote
Creon, in control, proclaimed that none of the dead who had fought against Thebes must
be give a burial, inasmuch as they were traitors.
TRAUDE, it occurs to me that one can
only be a 'traitor' to one's own county..or city, in this case.  Therefore, most of the
dead would have been Argives and the term would not apply to them. I don't recall seeing
a reference to Thebans other than Polyneices taking part in the battle, though it's
reasonable to infer there would be.
   My edition’s explanatory notes made an interesting observation on Polyneices name.  Polyneices is a play on the Greek word for quarreling, with the name translating to 'much quarreling’.  Apparently, a highly appropriate name.



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ginny

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #134 on: May 19, 2012, 10:42:51 AM »
I now have an in print book  with notes and annotated, and it's by Richard Earl Braun and the most stunning thing I learned was that Creon is a mythological legend, not real,  and this story or iteration of his life, the Antigone part,  is a  figment of Sopholcles imagination.  Euripides wrote another version of Antigone's end, but the play is now lost.

I went to look up the "real" Creon in history and found there were two Kreons, both in mythology, one  the King of Corinth of the old Jason and the Argonauts fame,  and one the King of Thebes, brother of Jocasta, wife of Oedipus Rex.

Braun makes the point very clearly that Kreon's behavior is not noble and is not to be considered the norm for rulers.

He goes into great political detail on this one. So he confirms the Sully translation that Kreon is acting not of expected principles but of his own benefit.

He states also in a series of bits on the structure of the play that "it appears Sophocles took the meaning [of the words Antigone and Haimon] seriously, for he created an Antigone who, "born to oppose," relies on innate courage in facing tyranny, and he devised the manner of Haimon's death, where "blood" is poured wastefully forth."

(Here's another name analysis to go along with that of Polyneices. :))

I thought this was very  interesting:

"Kreon expounds a tyrannical and oligarchic [conflict], Haimon, a democratic view of law and leadership. The combining of tyrannical and oligarchic in Kreon is a peculiar paring of different though logically compatible, concepts of government: though few oligarchs would have admitted the compatibility, many democrats might insist upon it.

Kreon's laws are his own; the principle behind them is obedience to power, their alleged purpose is stability, their apparent motive power-hunger. Haimon's principle is reason, his motive love for Antigone. Haimon, democracy, Eros; Kreon autocracy, Ares: the diagram has appeal.

Kreon is a military leader who is not governed by civil norms. An Athenian general, however, had to render an account of his acts to the people. Athenians associated law with freedom from autocratic rule; laws, to Pericles, were the enactments of the majority of citizens duly assembled."

That's important, and it's what's wrong with Kreon and the entire thing, seen against the backdrop of the "Athenian city-state" of the time.

In other words, his words give him away as what he is, and it's not the norm.

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #135 on: May 19, 2012, 01:17:43 PM »
Given how many centuries people have been arguing over this play, I didn't expect us to reach a consensus, and we're certainly all over the map.  I'm working on my interpretation of Creon now, will post it when I can get it to make sense.

It doesn't matter to me that these weren't historical characters.  Sophocles is using them to express his ideas, and probably thought they were real.

Anyway, Aristotle says that myth is the best subject for drama, since it doesn't matter how improbable the stories are, we know they are true. ;D

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #136 on: May 19, 2012, 01:51:07 PM »
What great posts! I had hoped we would be all over the map: if it were a trivial question, it wouldn't have resonated for so many years.

I hope I am hearing that some of you liked this play as much as I do. I saw some of the scenes acted out, and it blew me away.

Ginny: I like your notes. We'll get to Haimon next week in the second part of the play. I'd like to revisit your notes on him then.

ginny

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #137 on: May 19, 2012, 01:59:12 PM »
That's a good point. Maybe that is why Fagles says  people over the last 2500 years could argue one side or the other at different times: in our time  they might  see Kreon as, for instance, the Leader of the Free World in 2013. How would he fit in that scenario?  Would there even  BE an issue? You'd have to distort or maybe extrapolate is a better word,  the main issue, the importance of a proper burial, so that would mean it would extend to other ethics issues and THERE you could have a field day. In that scenario (2013)  killing her would not be an option unless he were a Gadaffhi type modern dictator.

Or you could compare him to other despots or leaders in history. I can see how you could do that.

As it IS, I think it's striking in its historical context,  but again, Sophocles could not have written it as seen from a WWI perspective, so it may need for the sake of discussion  to reduce to the issue or theme  of power and helplessness, there seem to be a million themes and comparisons in it.

To me, the fact that Sophocles chose to present it as he did has meaning, but again, I'm just puffing away in the wind, that's how it seems to me.

Harold, I immediately thought of your Readers Theater with this one. :)




JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2012, 02:02:50 PM »
Of course the other time this play was popular was in the 1960s. As an old Civil Rights activist, that's how I reacted to it.

JudeS

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #139 on: May 19, 2012, 02:03:58 PM »
In the intro to the play by Bernard Knox he says that "The Chorus is meant to be the voice of the audience in its need to respond to what they see and hear on stage."

In the chorus's speech (lines 655-677) I hear a most modern and almost Existential attiude to life.

 "Blest, they are the truly blest, who all their lives
have never tasted devasttion.  For others, once
the Gods have rocked a house to its foundations
      the ruin will never cease, cresting on and on
from one generation on throughout the race-
like a great mounting tide
...................................................(I skip anumber of lines)

        and one generation cannot free the next-
some god will bring them crashing down,
the race finds no release.
And noe the light , the hope
         springing up from the late last root
in the house of Oedipus, that hopes cut down in turn
by the long,  bloody knife swung by the gods of death
by asenseless word
            by fury at the heart.

As I wrote these words in the form the book gives me I am, for some reason, reminded of T.S. Eliots poetry, use of language and even form.  Hmmm, could that be so?








BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2012, 03:26:04 PM »
I hear you and yet - yes that word yet - I think when we judge other behavior we use not only our point of view but also the mores of the day - in history there is much behavior that was imagined by victims that they assumed - I guess I have seen too many characters in history that had vanquished with disrespect their enemy, mostly Generals in war, in order to create loyalty and bind closer the troops - Back to the Civil War, how do we explain Sherman's march to the sea - and yet, for some Sherman is a hero -

I know we agree that reading a story we share our reaction based in our views of human behavior rather than to use the opinions of others to form our life experiences - do we really know what Sophocles meant other than what is said in the play - did he write notes explaining what he meant to say in his play - I can't help but think if we are going to take the interpretation offered by published educated readers without our individual reflection than why read a work - by taking the viewpoint of others as basic feels as if we are simply giving more kudos to past interpreters...now, I can see a translation giving a slant not conveying the accurate description - but as you are all saying this work is a metaphor to many historical events.

I do appreciate today many prefer a good guy/bad guy scenario - also we give heed to the many quotes about only having the capacity to see in another that which we know from within ourselves - I do not think folks act irrationally - we may not understand their behavior because we never had a similar experience and our bag of tools would have us handle it differently - but then is that saying if someone handles things differently that makes them the bad guy without even examining their how, why and wherefore.

Finally, I broke down and read excerpts of the modern play by Jean Anouilh - he has Antigone as a difficult girl, terrorizing, always insisting on the gratification of her desires, refusing to "understand" the limits placed on her and representing the French Resistance -

Notes on his work suggest Anouilh sees Antigone as a tragic hero Like Oedipus - and he sees Creon as trying to achieve social order with no desire to sentence Antigone to death if she would only bow to state power. He sees Creon alone in the palace with no family by his side so that he cannot even mourn the loss of his family because of the demands of leadership.

In Anouilh's play Ismene is the object of all men's desires that Antigone feels jealous and she tries to woo Ismene's fiancé. Failing she sees, these human pleasures are not meant for her.

So far, I had not picked up any jealousy by Antigone for Ismene in the Sophocles play but again, we have folks who see different values in these characters.

The French Resistance was a force counted on for support by Eisenhower. The French Resistance, like Antigone, their strength was unreasonable behavior, risking life for a moral value. It is widely accepted that Hitler would not have come to power if the allies had not vanquished Germany after WWI - as I say I see Generals in history acting toward their enemy as Creon. I do not see Creon similar to our understanding of Hitler or Stalin who brutalized and disposed of great swaths of citizens. However, even those atrocities when you pull it apart you can learn how they thought their action was justified in order to secure the nation. Hitler carried out a plan long held and written about during Bismarck's Germany.

Had these two different expressions of leadership, Hitler and the Resistance not emerged we would never have the clash called WWII. I see in Sophocles play the build up to a clash and how each was caught in their own view of themselves, their reason to live, and their place in the world around them.

Again, I am not asking anyone to share my point of view - In these posts I want to explain how I arrive at my take on what I read - as Pat, JoanK, Ginny and others have pointed out this is a story chewed over for thousands of years and I just do not want to believe my viewpoint is incorrect because it does not agree with some  published educated authors therefore, my thoughts and life experiences are wrong. I do think we have in the past and we can continue to read questioning past presumptions.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #141 on: May 19, 2012, 09:13:09 PM »
I agree. There is no "wrong" way to see this play -- we all see it with our own eyes, and take different things from it.

Since our theme is women in Grrek drama, I'm now looking at the gender roles in the play. They're definitely there.

Here is ISMENE" Remember we are women,we're not born to contend with men."

Well Antigone is having none of THAT. She contends away. But about being able to fuldill her traditional role, of burying her brother.

And listen to the assumptions of gender roles by both Creon and Antigone in this conversation:

CREON: Once an enemy never a friend,
not even after death.

ANTIGONE: I was born to join in love, not hate--
That is my nature.

CREON: Go down below and love
if love you must-- love the dead!
While I'm alive
no woman is going to lord it over me.

So, Antigone rebels, but rebels to "join in love". To Creon, it's about enmity and power.

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #142 on: May 19, 2012, 09:15:22 PM »
Can any of you answer Virginia Woolfs Question in "A Room of her Own"? She tries to understand how a culture like ancient greece, with such strict gender role, produced a literature with so many strong women.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #143 on: May 19, 2012, 11:25:03 PM »
I think what is facinating is that I have to say my daughter and I both fall in line with the Antigone approach - even my daughter-in-law however, she is able to use an Ismene approach so that few realize what hit them till so far after the fact it no longer matters and yet, being forceful still does not protect you from adversity initiated by others - this play is perfect to see how clashes occur - rather than be concerned with who is right or wrong just coming from a different perspective that you believe in is a front row ticket to a crash.

I can see the fear that is part of these characters push to gain control - is that it - we are all here to fulfill our prophecy which requires much and we fortify ourselves to meet the task with all sorts of characteristics.

I must say when the guard came to tell Creon that the body had the ritual dust thrown on it the response reminded me of what many a whistle blower still experiences.

The chorus says...

She's clearly the fierce
daughter of a fierce father; she doesn't know to bend with the wind


Isn't her father Oedipus - evidently he was considered a fierce father - isn't he the one who blinds himself after he learns he killed his father and married his mother.

Creon says...
    You alone of all Cadmus' race think this.

Looks like instructed by the oracle he finds and follows a cow till it sank in the mud so Cadmus is credited with building Thebes.

I love that quote JoanK - I like it where it started just a bit back further - I am going to repeat I just think it is so powerful.

CREON:
    The good don't want to share honors with the bad.

ANTIGONE:
    Who knows what is considered righteous below?

CREON:
    An enemy is not a friend, even when dead.

ANTIGONE:
    I cannot share their hate, only their love.


Only after he cannot match her logic for love does he come in with his thunder - essentially he says as we say today Go to hell - as well as saying, women are not worthy of ruling at least while this man is king of the hill.

CREON:
    Then go below, and if you must be loved,
    love them! No woman will rule while I live.


This is a monarchy so Antigone would have to shove him off his pedestal in order to rule - as much as Greece is credited with the first Democracy it does not appear to include equality to women nor does it value individual thought or behavior -

Another power move, this time to protect her sister...

ISMENE:
    I did the deed, if she consents,
    and I will take and bear the charge.

ANTIGONE:
    But Justice will not allow this to you,
    since neither did you want nor did I share it.

ISMENE:
    But, in your time of trouble, I am not
    ashamed to sail those stormy seas beside you


I wonder JoanK if the old adage reads true here - the Wolff's law something about the strongest link is where a broken bone healed - I'm thinking that woman show their strength in many ways - some more forcefully and some more public but one way or the other we have developed a strength that is often the subject of debate. Hehehe just thought I wonder with this current war on women coming out of Washington if there are more Creons in Congress - bottom-line, are they running scared hmmm. Fun...

OH my the plot thickens - Antigone is married to the son of Creon - Holy Hannah this is quite the clash of wills - there is thick family ties to both adversaries. sheesh.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2012, 09:32:07 AM »
 Interesting to hear that 'Antigone' is also a relevant name, GINNY. That, Haemon and
'Polyneices' make three. I'm wondering if any of the other names are significant.
  I think as we get further into the play, Creon's motives will become clearer.
 
 Haemon is engaged to Antigone, BARB, but not married if I am reading my translation
correctly.  But the 'ties' are definitely adding to the tension.  I appreciated your observation
about Ismene showing her own strength, a feminine strength, in siding with her sister in her
"time of trouble". On the other side, when Ismene and Antigone are brought before Creon, I felt Antigone was most unfair to Ismene. 
 
  “If he [Man] observe Law, and tread the righteous path God ordained, honoured is he;...”The explanatory notes tell me that in the Greek actually says “the laws of the land”, which makes a slightly different statement.  By specifying laws of the land and the 'righteous path that God ordained’ the need to observe both is indicated.
  Antigone obviously feels she cannot do both.  I can understand and respect that.  What truly annoys me is what, in our modern times, we might term the 'drama queen' behavior.

 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2012, 12:15:26 PM »
Antigone was always the more forceful of the sisters.  Traude points out that she was the one who accompanied Oedipus when he left Thebes, while Ismene stayed behind to relay news.  When the two sisters are arguing, Creon says:

"They're both mad, I tell you, the two of them.
One's just shown it, the other's been that way
since she was born."

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2012, 02:01:42 PM »
".  Traude points out that she [Antigone]was the one who accompanied Oedipus when he left Thebes, while Ismene stayed behind to relay news."

That's right -- I didn't pick up on that. So their characters are consistant.

Sisters tend to specialize: I'll bet the more forceful Antigone becomes, the more retiring Ismene is. But Ismene has the courage to ask to be punished with Antigone. Do you agree with my friend's mother who named her daughter after Ismene?

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2012, 02:40:48 PM »
We start discussing the second half of the play Tuesday. Still plenty to discuss. What about Creon's claim that Antigone is in love with death?

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #148 on: May 20, 2012, 02:42:38 PM »
And some background for Tuesday. It starts with a hymn to Dionysus. It helps to know who he was.

Dionysus

"He was the god of fertility and wine, later considered a patron of the arts. He invented wine and spread the art of tending grapes. He has a dual nature. On the one hand bringing joy and devine ecstasy. On the other brutal, unthinking, rage. Thus, reflecting both sides of wines nature. If he choses Dionysus can drive a man mad. No normal fetters can hold him or his followers".

http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #149 on: May 20, 2012, 05:02:39 PM »
JoanK I cannot figure out where we are supposed to stop - is the The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. before Heamon converses with his father? I do not see anyplace where Dionysus speaks - is there a chorus number like Chorus 20 - please copy a few lines of where we end or where we begin on Tuesday.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #150 on: May 20, 2012, 05:29:59 PM »
Oops.  JoanK made a mistake.  The bit about Dionysus comes later in the next section.

You're right about where we are.  At the moment we are discussing through

CREON, to the guards:
Stop wasting time.  Take them in.
From now on they'll act like women.
Tie them up, no more running loose;
even the bravest will cut and run,
once they see Death coming for their lives.  The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace.

Starting Tuesday, we will discuss the rest of the play, beginning with a long chorus and the entrance of Haemon.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #151 on: May 20, 2012, 06:21:27 PM »
OK got it - thanks  :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2012, 06:29:51 PM »
Thanks, Pat. I got confused. The appeal to Dionysus appears later. The beginning of the second half of the play which we start to discus Tuesday is the chorus lamenting the sorrows that have been given by the gods to the house of Oedipus.

The second half of the play is full of references to other stories that were in the Greek culture of the time. the audience would have known these stories and expected to see such references. but for us, they can be barriers to our understanding and enjoyment.

I will post links to some of these stories. But it's up to you how you read this play. Anything from following up every reference to ignoring them all is ok. We aren't in High School any more, and no one but you will care whether you know who Niobe was, or where all the place names referenced are. Don't let yourself get so bogged down in details you fail to appreciate the story, which is basically very simple.

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2012, 06:36:04 PM »
Having said that, here are some links to people who are referanced: Most are references to other peope who were punished by the gods or man. Antigone feels that since the gods didn't rescue her or send a sign, they are punishing her.

NIOBE: her children killed and she turned to stone after she bragged about them http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/niobe.html

PERSEPHONE: Greek queen of the underworld http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Persephone.html

DANAE: was locked in a bronze chamber by her father, but got out. Mother of Perseus http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Danae.html

LYCURGUS, KING OF EDONIA: banned the worship of Dionysus, who had him punished.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_of_Thrace

DIONYSUS: Greek god of wine (and orgies) http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html

JoanK

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2012, 07:01:49 PM »
The link above tells a funny story about Lycurgis: one version says that he banned the god of wine because he liked beer!

Babi

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #155 on: May 21, 2012, 08:58:30 AM »
There is an observation from the chorus, (the strophe, rather) that “Once a house is shaken of Heaven, disaster never leaves it, from generation to generation.”    Their gods are a vengeful lot.  It’s not a notion restricted to the Greeks, of course.  The Hebrew scriptures stated that “the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons unto the third and fourth generations.”Happily, a later prophet overturned that with a more enlightened view.  Everyone answers for their own sins and offenses.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JudeS

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #156 on: May 21, 2012, 12:13:53 PM »
Joan K
Is Antigone in love with death?

No. But she may very well have a martyr complex.

She believes so strongly that she is right that she is willing to give up her life for her beliefs.
Like so many martys that came after her, she sees her death for her beliefs as more worthwhile than her life could be fighting for the rights she believes in.

Is she a heroine or a fool?
Depends on your point of view.

In Knox's preface he mentions that the other two plays in this trilogy were written long after this one and in the meanwhile many of Sophocles views changed.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #157 on: May 21, 2012, 01:48:52 PM »
Don't you think Jude that is the attitude of many soldiers during war - they willingly risk and sacrifice their life for Country - not sure if that is the basis for a career soldier but it seems to be the basis for those who volunteer during war.

I guess I am having trouble with the word complex since it indicates "seeking behavior" and I do not get that Antigone was seeking punishment until the decree prevented her from a value basic to her and her religion. I think most of us would have a difficult time if we were prevented from burying a family member who lay in the fields at the edge of town and then to live with an Uncle who forbade through this decree seems like that would be hell on earth.

She does not even judge harshly her sister who can live knowing their brother is not buried - she even knows how much the sister values her life and when the sister through love and loyalty offers to take the same punishment she argues for her life. This to me is a lady who is willing to take the consequences she knew she was risking in order to live with herself.

Heck most of us have had children and that is not risk free - we are down to 13% of pregnancies and births ending up in the death of the Mother here in the USA - I do not think we have a martyr complex when we behave in a way to risk pregnancy - we may not be as conscious any longer of our risk and think it can't happen but there is a risk for what we value in our lives. I think Antigone touches a core within us that makes us uncomfortable - many of us risk death and some of us face death for what we value.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #158 on: May 21, 2012, 02:49:01 PM »
That would be horrific if one in eight pregnancies ended in the death of the mother.  Fortunately it's not that bad.  If you scroll down in this article, you will see that in the US it's currently 21 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-report-maternal-deaths-dropped-by-half-over-20-year-span/2012/05/16/gIQArsE7SU_story.html

PatH

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Re: Women in Greek Drama
« Reply #159 on: May 21, 2012, 02:50:52 PM »
That said, you're right that many of us are willing to risk death for what we value.