Women in Greek Drama

[PatH]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online


Antigone

Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
            Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half

Questions for the second half:

1. In the opening of this section, what is the chorus predicting?

2. It's been said that both Creon and Antigone are one-sided. do you agree?

3. In the argument of Creon and Haemon, what is each saying?  Do you agree with either? How might this argument have been seen in the Greece of Sophocles' time?

4. What is the attitude of the populace toward Creon?

5. Now that she is about to be punished, how does Antigone feel about what she has done?  Does she have any regrets?

6. Does Antigone offer any reason for her fate?

7. As the play goes on, Creon reveals more of his nature. What do we find out about him?  What drives him?

8. Why do they keep on burying the body?

9. At the end,What does Creon find out about himself? Do you think that he will change? What do you see as the future for him?

10. Who is the protagonist?  The antagonist?  What is the fatal flaw? (See discussion for definitions of those terms).
 
11.What part does fate play in this drama?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

[Babi]

 Can anyone really replace a lost loved one? One may have another child to love,
but that doesn't lessen the pain of the one lost.
  It may be that in early Greek culture Antigone had more freedom than the average
woman, but not necessarily.  In most countries, members of royal families have
much less freedom; they are so carefully guarded and protected.

 We don't know how long Antigone and Haemon have been betrothed, but I found an
article on early Greek marriage customs, and it stated: "Greek society stresses upon the marriage of a girl at the age of fourteen. Boys are found eligible at the age of thirty after they have served military force. Girls are obliged to marry where and who their father wants." Kind of leaves Antigone's age up in the air.

 Someone mentioned Tieresias earlier, whom Creon welcomes and acknowledges as a prophet and wisest of advisors. That is, until Tieresias tells him he is wrong in this matter,  at which point Creon immediately accuses him of being in the pay of his enemies. On the subject of the burial of Polynieces, Creon is obsessive to an extreme degree.  He is determined the man shall not be honored in any way,
even if it alienates everyone around him.  This is a very personal reaction. So, what does he have against Polyneices?

  So, back to explore the explanatory notes. It seems when Polyneices was besieging Thebes, the prophet told him Ares was angry with the city because the origin of the Thebans began with the death of a son of Ares, the dragon from whose teeth the first Theban warriors arose.  The only way the city could be saved was for one of the descendents of the ‘sown men’ to die. Creon’s son, Menoeceus, patriotically committed suicide.  I think this must be the source of Creon’s hatred for Polyneices. 

[PatH]

We have to remember that the husband and son that Antigone regards as replaceable are theoretical.  She has neither, and might feel differently if they were real people that she had become fond of.

She has not led a typical life.  She was a child when Oedipus left the throne.  He lived in the area of Thebes for a while, and when he left, she, now grown up, accompanied him as his guide.  This would involve much more exposure to the world than most young women got, and also give her a strong sense of family responsibility.

One of my introductions said that her marriage to Creon's son would be expected for dynastic purposes.

[BarbStAubrey]

Looks like Creon left all the dead soldiers unburied.

All the cities are stirred by hatred, whose
mangled children took their only burial
from dogs and beasts—or some winged bird, bearing
an unholy stench into his native city.

Is the message of Creon not to wait to change an act of passion into an act or reason because if you wait you risk, as Creon risked and lost, the victims taking matters into their own hands.

Takes a bit but way after reading the story through I realized the impact on Creon of the death of his wife - like Antigone he no longer can replace a son with another and so he lost not only his son and wife but any future.

Like you Babi I too wonder how folks can replace a loved child lost in death with another - and yet, that is so often the advise given to a couple that loose a child and it is even a solution some couples choose to lesson their pain. I wonder if it has to do with the age of the child lost. Again, looking at this from our hearts there is little sense in the concept of lessoning pain with another child where as in the head it makes sense as if we are chess pieces swapping one for another based in biology and love is easily transfered.

From what you found on how girls are betrothed that suggests that Oedipus arranged the marriage between Antigone and Haemon - given the story of Oedipus all sorts of issues could be at the core of Creon's obsessive attitude toward Antigone and her brother, Polyneices - for all we know Creon could think Antigone is not worthy of his son and her death would be a welcomed relief believing Haemon would simply find another. We are not shown the inner workings of any of these characters other than as the story unfolds the facts of their behavior are recorded.

The chorus sure gives us a litany of other Greeks who were forced into horrible deaths. Reminded me of some of the Texans experiences during the early days when they were fighting for Independence from Mexico and some were captured, brought deep into Mexico and tied to stakes in the middle of a court yard, fed like animals, a few for years till they either died or were able to escape.

Conflict sure raises our capacity for inhumanity - never put that together before as another reason to quiet the passions and negotiate harmony. With all the horrors of war it increases our capacity for base inhuman behavior. Some succumb and others - aha yes, that was Frankel's story when he was in the camps as a holocaust survivor - some are able to keep their humanity and moral compass while good folks, fellow survivors can loose it.  

[ginny]

Looks like Creon left all the dead soldiers unburied.

Remember Achilles and Hector? Dragging Hector around the city of Troy in fury over the death of his friend,  till his old father Priam came out to beg for the body?

To deny burial, to not have a funeral with honors, was to forever damn/ dishonor the person involved. Not so unusual in bitter battle.

However Creon was Jocasta's brother.

Jocasta was the wife/ mother of Oedipus.

She was the mother of Polyneices and Eteokles, who, depending on what source you read, didn't treat Polyneices well either, cheated him actually.

So that means that Creon was Polyneices uncle. It's one thing to dishonor the enemy, and you can find plenty of examples of that (and the reverse, too) but it's quite another to dishonor your own family.

To the Greeks this small thing to us would have been unthinkable.

[JudeS]

Here's a Freudian look at this play.

Line 944-Chorus to Antigone:
Your life's in ruin child-I wonder....
do you pay for your Father's terrible ordeal?

Lines 946-954 Antigone answers:
There- at last you've touched it, the worst pain
the worst anguish! Raking up the grief for father
  three times over, for all the doom
that's  strick us down, the brilliant house of Laius.
O mother, your marriage bed
the coiling horrors, the coupling there-
        you with your own son, my father-doomstruck mother!
Such, such were my parents, and I their wretched child:

Chorus answers:
Your own blind will, your passion has destroyed you.

So , what we have is the one child out of the four who is so weighted down by the "Sins of the Fathers"  that her will to live is easily overcome by the latest depressing event: her brothers unburied body.
This type of person cannot really feel affection for her betrothed. Her feelings are too tied up with the miseries of the past to expect or want anything of the future.
This reminds me of the "Death by Cop" phenomena. A way for authority to kill you so you die without the mark of suicide.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, yes Ginny - and it makes you wonder - from the story it sounds like Creon saw Polyneices turning on his family which means he had inside information about the city making any attack that much more lethal - almost like today if someone knowing the layout of a neighborhood and the contents of each home used that information to get his new band of friends to rob or cause some sort of havoc that if he was a stranger enemy they would not be as successful.

And then another issue - could it be since Creon's brother-in-law was a liked leader that in order to establish himself Creon had to show that his nephew was really a putz that was so bad bringing shame on that side of the family and Creon could make himself out as the hero - except this time his emotions to ruin and degrade was eclipsed by the city that still held Oedipus and his children in high esteem.

From the example of Achilles and Hector I do not get that the city folks were reacting especially to the treatment of the body as much as we today are horrified - I wonder if it was more loyalty and respect for Oedipus remembering how he acted when he learned he unknowingly acted within his prophesied fate.

Hmm maybe that is part of this story - those who live out their prophesy are more valued than those who attempt to be self-directed and that was why there is little sympathy by the chorus for Antigone. Today we see all this as nonsense that a women is a second class citizen and a slave to men but more than that, I wonder if it is not just because Antigone did not play the traditional role of a woman rather, she was a challenge to the traditional view of the gods when she was independently doing what she thought was right and therefore acting self-directed.

Jude we are posting at the same time - yes, I think that is it - her passion is to be self-directed - and the story is letting us know she is weighted down by the "sins of her father" - would that shame keep her tied to her past as if she had to feel guilt and that she had to avenge the past - sounds like it doesn't it.  

Once we try to untangle the inner workings of these characters there are a million scenarios - we cannot sit across from them and get to their inner motive - all we have is our interpretation of the actions. What was taken years ago as a stubborn, willful, self-centered women to me is the view held back when we were young of 'woman's place' where as today, we can see Antigone as a strong woman speaking her heart and mind and willing to die for her beliefs.

[PatH]

Yes, Ginny, Creon meant to leave all the dead enemies unburied, and that wasn't well received.  The reference Traude quoted in #185 says:
"After the death of Eteocles and Polynices, Creon prohibited a proper burial of Polyneices and his Argive allies. Theseus, King of Athens, led an army against Thebes and compelled Creon to give the fallen heroes the correct rites."

[ginny]

Thank you, Pat, I didn't read  on in the Wiki reference in post 185, since  Theseus is not in Antigone and the incident of The Seven Against Thebes appears to be covered in other sources.

Also, and again referencing material not in Antigone, in the struggle between Polynieces and Eteocles it's hard for me to see Polyneices as a traitor since he and his brother Eteocles  were the rightful heirs, and agreed to split the kingdom equally between them. But when the first year was up Eteocles refused to yield his turn, and Polyneices, who had spent that year at the court of Adrastus of Argos, and married the king's daughter, was naturally enraged. It was his father in law Adrastus who got up the army headed by the Seven Against Thebes, one for each gate at Thebes, to regain his rightful place. He even asked his father Oedipus for help, who then cursed both of them to kill each other. Nice guy.

So with the rightful heirs dead, enter  Creon,  the Uncle, who takes over Thebes.

Euripides takes it up from that point in his The Suppliants, in which the mothers of the dead chieftains go with Adrastus to beg at the shine of Demeter to Aethra, mother of Theseus. Theseus yields to their pleas and recovers the bodies for burial by force. Evade, wife of Capaneus, throws herself on his funeral pyre.

The point of all this is it  looks like one possibility for Creon's decision not to bury Polyneices may have been a reaction  more perhaps to the imagined (or possibly real) threat of Adrastus and an Argive alliance which is thought to have been known at the time (422 BC ) The Suppliants was written, than thinking about the consequences.  Creon may have been overreacting with his newfound power of regency by lumping  Polyneices in with the other 6 Argive champions,  and fearing a threat from Adrastus.    

[Frybabe]

those who live out their prophesy are more valued than those who attempt to be self-directed and that was why there is little sympathy by the chorus for Antigone.

Barb do you think that the majority of the ancient Greeks believed in predestination rather than self-determination? Or that just certain people were singled out for a predetermined destiny? Most of my knowledge of Greek philosophy has vanished, mostly because the only thing we studied in college was Plato's Dialogs. I remember it was pretty dizzying.

[PatH]

Continuing the theme of burial: you're right, Ginny, Polyneices was buried three times.  I put in question 8--why do they keep on burying the body--because of a complaint in one of the introductions.  Why did Antigone try to bury the body the second time, after the religious requirements were met?  The writer thought Sophocles put this in for plotting purposes.  Antigone hadn't been caught the first time, and if she gets away with it, we have no plot.  He suggested two rationales, and I thought of two more.  Perhaps she had to cut things short because the guards were coming, and wanted to complete the ritual.  Perhaps the first burial really was the work of the gods, as suggested by the leader of the chorus.  This made Creon turn purple with rage, but there is a tiny bit of evidence--the sentry says that no animals had touched the body.

The two I thought of: the guards moved the body, leaving it uncovered, and their description suggests it was in poor shape.  Maybe Antigone couldn't stand that, and wanted it covered up for decency.  Or, if you believe that Antigone really wanted to be caught, she was giving them another chance.

The third burial is straightforward.  There was no religious need, but once Creon had admitted his mistake, it was only respectable to provide a proper tomb.

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe I am not sure the thinking was predestination but with all this bird watching and prophecies, oracles and seers in addition to making sure the gods are satisfied doesn't sound to me like much self-determination going on.

I am having a difficult time of seeing Antigone as wanting to be caught - the very first part of the story has her checking with her sister if there was anything new from Zeus wanting to punish either of them and then she takes her sister outside the gate so 'that you alone might hear.'

She emphasizes this plan not to bury the brother is cooked up by Creon

Such things they say our good Creon decreed
for you and me—for me, I say!
And he is coming here to announce it
clearly to anyone who hasn't heard,
for he considers it no small matter,
but for the one who does any of it,
the penalty is death by public stoning.

If it is a death by cop wish than why would she ask her sister to accompany her?

Will you share in the labor and the deed?

ANTIGONE:
    Will you lift the corpse with this very hand?

ISMENE:
    You want to bury him, although it's forbidden in the city!

ANTIGONE:
    I'll bury my brother—your brother, too,
    though you refuse! I'll not be found a traitor.

Then she goes into her whole diatribe about Creon not having the right to keep her from burying her brother and how the gods and those under the earth tra la la la la.

I take from that she questioned first if they were being further punished by Zeus meaning she would take a different look at all this and if she was bent on a death wish seems to me she would not have asked her sister to help her. There is nothing to indicate the request for help was anything but ligament calling on her sister to have the same concern for the brother.

I guess I am trying to imagine the story if she were to accept the decree and if she did not take matters into her own hands - certainly if it was left to Ismene that would be her way of staying a virtuous women and a victim to those who would control even her basic relationship with her family.

I think to search for a reason to justify why Creon chose to defile the brother's body making sure the sister's were aware - he was making the trip to be sure both sisters were informed - that is like trying to explain the behavior of an abusive spouse - or soldiers in the field who abuse the citizenry when an officer is no where around - bottom line it comes down to they have the power and they can - Antigone stands up to that power - as many women who attempt to negotiate with 'the powers that be' are instead threatened - the guards looking to save their own necks search her out.

Had Creon not threatened the Guards they may have let the whole thing go but again, that is changing the story - what a story to outline for us the ambiguity of life. To come to terms with a gray world with no black or white is unsettling and it is amazing the stories we weave for ourselves in order not to have to face and live with ambiguity.

[PatH]

Someone mentioned Tieresias earlier, whom Creon welcomes and acknowledges as a prophet and wisest of advisors. That is, until Tieresias tells him he is wrong in this matter,  at which point Creon immediately accuses him of being in the pay of his enemies.

This seems to be one of Creon's fixations.  Earlier, when the sentry tells Creon that the body has been buried, Creon assumes the guards have been bribed.

   ...Money!  Nothing worse
in our lives, so current, rampant, so corrupting.
Money--you demolish cities, root men from their homes,
you train and twist good minds and set them on
to the most atrocious schemes.  No limit,
you make them adept at every kind of outrage,
every godless crime--money!

[BarbStAubrey]

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q&feature=related

[PatH]

 
My, they're good!

[Babi]

 Good point, PAT. I think one has to have their first child to fully realize how
precious they become to us and how ferociously we would defend them.

 Was it customary to attempt to bury those hundreds of enemy bodies on a battlefield,
BARB?  It is always done now, of course, but back then I believe family might come
to search for the bodies of loved ones, but the corpses were otherwise left to the
disposal of nature. Still, as PAT tells us, Athens did demand a burial of the "heroes". I suppose, actually, in those days, the number of those fighting and killed was much, much less than we see today.
 You are so right about the inhumanity surfacing in wartime. All the creeps who
would in ordinary times have to hide their perversions seem to thrive in wartime.
Torturers, rapists, sadists...ugh!

[ginny]

Here's an interesting article in enotes on why the burial meant a great deal to Antigone, another, perhaps,  psychological possibility in our lists for her intransigence?

Mourning the dead was one of the few things women were allowed to do in ancient Greece, especially Athens. Women of well-born families were expected to stay at home in specially designated women's quarters at all times except during certain religions festivals. Marriages were arranged by a girl's father or guardian. Women were not true citizens of the democracy and could not speak or vote in the assembly. They were not even allowed to speak in court, a basic right for Athenian men.

Burying and mourning their dead relatives gave women an opportunity to do something important for their families. It brought women to the fore and gave them a role to play. When Creon forbids burial of Polynices, he denies Antigone the chance to do one of the few important things society allowed women to do. Thus, he is attacking her identity, and that is a large part of the reason she opposes his orders.

http://www.enotes.com/antigone-text/the-importance-of-burial-in-greek-religion

I found that while trying to find out how digging up a buried person might compromise the original burial.

Pat, what an intriguing question.   I'm not sure, but I don't know for a fact,  that the first proper burial  was all that mattered and that the guards came by when she was tidying up the grave just  for the sake of the plot. It could be, of course.

She may have had valid reasons for being there, tidying up. I keep, for my part, thinking about the nature of his first two  burials: inhumation. Normally they were cremated (see http://www.colorado.edu/Classics/exhibits/GreekVases/essays/200636tburial.htm) but she did the best she could. Greece as we all know is  a lot of  rock and hard stony ground, it must have taken a lot to bury him the first time.  And who, having buried somebody, especially under these circumstances, does not return to the grave site to move a blade of grass or arrange something?

 When she finds him out of the earth (I'm glad there were no more burials, I lost count there for a while), she does the best she can and gets caught. It's hard to bury a dog on rocky ground much less a body which, by the admission of the guards, stinks as you say,  so they had to move aside. So my take on it was she took the handfuls of dust and she held up the urn in supplication, hoping that the gods would take that as a proper reburial and she wouldn't have done that unless he had been defiled.

In Creon's final  reburial, they seem to make a funeral pyre and also a "mighty mound of mother earth," and  they offered a prayer to Pluto and the "goddess of cross ways." So apparently even if it's the "third?" burial, if you count Antigone's efforts, it matters. What an interesting question. I don't recall ever seeing anything on it (but there must be something somewhere). It makes me think of  Sulla and Marius actually.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok Ginny you have me curious now...

I wonder if the tradition of keening women during a funeral was because women were given an important role during burials.

I wonder if the burials were not a digging into the earth but rather, as in this part of the west, it was more a piling up of rocks to keep animals from the bodies so that mounds were created -

The first burial is described by the Guards as not so much digging into the earth - but it does say the body was hidden. The footnote says the sprinkling of dust is the most important part of the ritual.

GUARD:
    And I'm saying it! Just now someone has
    buried the corpse and gone off, sprinkling dust
    over its flesh and performing the due rites.

CREON:
    What did you say? What man has dared to do this?

GUARD:
    I don't know, for there was no stroke of a
    mattock or heap from a shovel, just hard
    earth and dry land, unbroken, no trace
    of wheels, but the workman worked without sign.
    When the day watch first showed it to us, we
    all thought it a most distressing marvel.
    For, although he was hidden from sight,
    he wasn't entombed per se, but there was
    a little dust on him, as from one fleeing
    a curse. Yet there weren't any signs of beasts
    or a dog coming near him, nor did the body
    seem mangled.

A mattock is a hand tool, used for digging and chopping, similar to the pickaxe. A cutter mattock combines an axe blade and an adze  and a pick mattock combines a pick and an adze

I used both a cutter and a pick mattock when I put my gardens in my front yard 3 or 4 years ago - there is about 3 to 4 inches of soil covering limestone - in a few places it is a limestone slab so I had to chip away the rock - I do not think I could do it now but I was successful as recently as 3 or 4 years ago - then I filled in with soil mixed with potting soil - in order to plant a bush or a tree many folks hire someone with a jackhammer - we are just west of the Balcones Fault and this limestone rock and caliche extends for miles and miles to the west.

That is why trees typically do not grow very tall unless they are watered in subdivision areas and also why a Live Oak is so admired - the tap root goes deep breaking through the rock and the roots store water that can last for years so that during a drought most come through.

[BarbStAubrey]

Back to the story.

It appears the Guards think the gods buried the body which does not sit well with Creon and so he accuses them of doing it for money. (that money thing again that Pat brought to our attention)

Then Creon flexes his power muscle so that the Guards must then save their own necks and prove they did not bury the body for personal gain.

GUARD:
    Alas!
    It's terrible when the one who judges judges wrong.

CREON:
    Quibble now about judgments; but if you
    don't show me who did this, you will affirm

Looks like she could be the scapegoat for the Guards who then distance themselves from her - someone is going to have to take the fall for this - this exchange makes it sound like the guards are trying to free themselves from the wrath of Creon and are leaving it to him to assess Antigone's guilt or innocence.

GUARD:
    My lord, a mortal should never swear that
    something cannot happen, for hindsight makes
    liars of our plans. Just now I swore I'd
    never come back here, because of those threats
    you shot at me, but the greatest pleasure
    is the joy you didn't even hope for.
    I came here, despite my oaths to the contrary,
    bringing this girl, who was captured performing
    the rites of burial. This time no lot
    was shaken; no, this one was my good luck,
    no other's. Now then, my lord, you take her,
    as you wish, and question and sentence her.
    I've justly freed myself from these troubles.

Their explanation sounds like there was a dust devil that is typical during mid-day that they call a divine storm - here is a great explanation http://tinyurl.com/7mru5o3 and when the dust devil passes they see her  as Ginny says, tidying up

GUARD:
   ...
    The whole sky was filled. We just closed our eyes
    and rode out the divine storm. After a while,
    it ended, the girl was seen, who was wailing
    bitterly like the shrill voice of a bird
    who sees her empty nest, stripped of its nurslings.
    Thus she screamed, when she saw the uncovered
    body: She groaned loudly and called down evil
    curses on whoever had done the work.
    Immediately she gathered dry dust
    in her hands and from a jug of fine bronze
    lifted up she crowned the corpse with three-fold
    libations. We saw it and rushed forward,
    caught her quickly, completely unperplexed.
    We questioned her both about the previous
    incident and the current; she stood in
    denial of nothing, something for me
    both sweet and painful, all at once. Nothing
    is sweeter than escaping trouble for
    yourself, but it's painful to conduct friends
    into it. But, for me, everything
    takes second place to my own safety.

Not much lee way here - the Guards with their demanding accusations, Creon wanting revenge and no one of importance to stand up for her she confesses - more than likely her clothes and face are dusty with tear stains streaking down her face.

I think she instinctively knows all she had left was her integrity - the Guards are too many and showing anger - an often response to fear and they were fearing their own death - she knows that Creon is not a friend, he did make a special trip to be sure the sisters know his plan for her dead brother and so if she is going to preserve any dignity her choice is to become part of the saga of her birth and she owns up.

At first she hangs her head but then she uses her final hours to unleash her anger challenging Creon. I see her acting like the people of Syria who, granted are many, are rebelling knowing that death is probable.  She knows her end is all she has and she wants to make her end meaningful. Not accepting her sister's offering as a co-conspirator seems fitting on many levels - why completely wipe out the family - she knows her sister was not in favor so why see her death. It would take away from the purity of her action which is tied to her integrity and as Ginny found in her research, it would subtract from her identity as a woman. 

[JoanK]

My computer has been up and down all day. So I'm using the interval when it's up to warn you. If I disappear, PatH will still be here.

It seems we still have a lot to say about Antigone. now that we all have finished at least one greek play, what do you think? Did the forms that we talked about earlier work out for you? The unity of time and place? the chorus?

This play certainly made us think. but the greeks thought that tragedy also gave a "catharsis" to the audience. Do you agree?

[BarbStAubrey]

OK this bit about burying and reburying and the whole issue of Antigone burying her brother along with Ginny’s post really got me going – so here is what I learned – I do think this helps us with some of what was going on.

Solon, in 594 BCE, 153 years earlier than Sophocles produces Antigone (441 BCE in Athens 430-429),
established changes to the laws associated with burial rituals – These changes were similarly established in most of the Greek City States as well as, among the religious cults. The picture we have of Antigone digging and burying her brother body was such a small insignificant part of what it meant to bury her brother.

I was able to read online The Ritual Lament in Greek Tradition by Margaret Alexiou, Dimitrios Yatromanolakis, Panagiotis Roilos. The first section is the most informative for understanding better Antigone’s role burying her brother.

Where women keening and wailing was a ritual in a funeral, those chosen for this task was based in the clan system that included those clans where intermarriage was permitted – Death laws were included with Marriage laws. There were various tiers of importance with the immediate family and then closest clan members having the right to wail while women from the outer tier clans of marriageable women made up those who did the keening.  

Rituals were preformed on a number of days after the burial and Solon made it law that there was no longer keening when the cart brought the body through the streets to the place of burial. He reduced the days of ritual to 3 months from a year – part of the ritual involved women tearing at their hair and face with one hand while with the other hand they beat at their chest. Women should wear dark and not white clothing so as not to see the soiling and women were selected as offenders to be condemned and punished for disobeying the new laws with exclusion from sacrifice to any god for 10 years.

Ritual days were the third, fifth and tenth day but it is not clear if the count was from the day of death or the day of the funeral. Traditionally, funerals were between 3 and 7 days after death. If the body is burned it is the 9th day with the funeral procession taking place on the 3rd day

And so, when Antigone says she is the 'Bride of the Dead' she means that no one from her immediate family or from her clan or any greater clan members will be performing any of the rituals. Since the women at the funeral were designated by marriage and marriageability.

The dusting is part of the ritual performed on the day of the burial and on the 3rd, 5th, and 10th day – (Ginny's tidying up days but with a twist) the dustings are the sweepings of the household including human excrement that is supposed to keep evil spirits away and clean the house of the dead person. Solon’s law forbade the dustings be placed at the crossroads to the city. Houses were washed in sea water with Hysop - the household women washed in sea water with Hysop - again to get rid of the demons and the spirit of the dead.

The right to morn was curbed also; the laceration of the cheeks and limited was the wailing and keening, where and when it could take place. Limited is clan participation with the focus on family except, in the instance of the war dead or a young, newly married person.

The biggie – tra la la la... the limitations on ritual including bring home from the burial site all vassals and coverings so the site would not become a secondary alter encouraging hero worship.

Limiting clan participation and follow-up was to forestall powerful noble families who might challenge the position of the king. The limits were aimed primarily at the rich because large clan funerals attract attention, which could arouse dangerous sentiments among the people.

Looks like Creon was increasing his position with the burial of Eteocles and making sure there was no sentiment among the people with a burial for Polynices.

Cult and clan rituals increase religious and political power. Limiting the scale and influence from private that stirred up feelings of incessant lamentation at the tomb by large number with professional mourners to excite a state of frenzy coincided with the women in cases of vengeance.

When there is no male survivor, the women maintain the consciousness for the need to take revenge by constant lamentation and invocation at the tomb crying out for blood.

Restricting women in funeral ritual removed the punishment in cases of homicide from clan to state.

As laws attempted to change funerals for heroes to large public festival celebrations on a fixed calendar date and open to all the people allowed the funeral and annual day of mourning to be a state event, which strengthened the leadership. Bull-sacrifice were still permitted at these state funerals especially when honoring the Marathon dead.

Limiting the family (clan) funeral was an attempt at limiting the wealthy that were the influential but it was uneven in practice so that poets of the classical period had this rich source of traditions.

[Babi]

  I read of the deaths of Antigone and Haemon, and The similarity with Romeo and Juliet can hardly be missed.  At least this heroine really was dead when the hero decided to join her.

 Most of my 'Greek classical' reading has really had little reference to Dionysus. I tended to
think of him as the 'orgy guy'.     The choice of Dionysus for one of the hymns becomes obvious once I knew his mother was Theban, one of the many 'brides’ of Zeus. That makes
him sort of a 'local hero' god, doesn't it?

 Sophocles has the messenger close his message with “folly is the worst of human evils”.
Can’t agree with that.  Folly can have evil, ie., tragic, results, but 'evil’ does not really fit.
I’m not clear if it’s Creon’s folly or Haeman’s that he refers to; but I’m leaning to Creon.
The root of Creon’s folly is rage, pride, and a hunger for vengeance.  Now those are surely
on the list of major human evils.
  (I really must get off this soapbox; my feet are getting sore. )

[PatH]

Babi, I'm seeing a lot of Shakespeare-like bits in this play.  Or really, of course, I'm seeing Sophocles-like bits in Shakespeare.   The sentry would be quite at home as a Shakespearean clown.

Not only was Dionysus a theban, but don't forget that Greek drama evolved from festivals to Dionysus.

[PatH]

So, Babi, are you picking Creon for the Protagonist and his flaw as rage or pride?  People debate between Creon and Antigone, though I think there's a better case for Creon.  I would pick Creon, but would pick lack of judgement or common sense as his flaw.

What does everyone think?


One of my versions closes with:

Of happiness, far the greatest part
Is wisdom. and reverence towards the gods.
Proud words of the arrogant man, in the end,
Meet punishment , great as his pride was great,
Till at last he is schooled in wisdom.

[PatH]

Here's a 1984 television version of Antigone, with Juliet Stevens.  It's pretty good, though it makes Creon look rather bad.

This link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWksyKZz_fE&feature=relmfu

starts with the sentry bringing news that the body has been buried, and goes on to the confrontation of Creon and Antigone.

This link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGT24uYPb2Y

gives you the whole thing.  (It's in 11 segments; there's a button to click to get them all to play.)

Warning: don't do what I did, and take a look at it at bedtime.  I stayed up till one watching it, and didn't get enough sleep.

[BarbStAubrey]

Isn't there something that a protagonist is supposed to change because that would sure fits Creon.

Well it is time for me to get my own 'dustings' swept only mine will not be deposited on either the cross roads or in the cemetery - ah so - into the trash for the landfill I guess and down the drain - I have a week to pack, clean the house etc. in order to be out of here for a few weeks.  

I do not know which was more valuable except they could be equal in value - this story showing how conflict is often based on a person's responsibilities and view of themselves carrying out those responsibilities are in direct conflict with other's equally valued identity and their responsibilities - an eye opener.

The other, years ago playing Sid Simon's Alligator River game and seeing among the good size group playing how among the group there were supporters for each of the 5 characters as being the better person. Their rational was backed with reasons - some we would never have guessed and other reasons that horrified others who had chosen another character - we learned that the same scenario can be seen and judged so differently and the magic learned was until you asked how they came to their decision you could never guess because we can only judge based on our own knowledge and life experience. - an eye opener.

So thanks - this was a conversation I will soon not forget and I am grateful for all the input to chew on. As usual a top notch group of thinkers and wow what a challenge for the discussion leaders to tackle such a philosophical discussion. Hats off to all - now I must roll up my sleeves and get going around here. Should be back in July except maybe a brief peek in if there is a quiet moment while visiting family.
 

[JoanK]

According to the schedule, this is the last day of our reading of Antigone. Let's give two more days, for windup thoughts, and to start reading Agammemnon.

For Thursday: first half of Agammemnon by Aesculus. (At the end Agammemnon and Clytemnestra Exit, the chorus speaks, and Clytemnestra re-enters to talk to Cassandra).

I'll put up questions and background tomorrow.

Is this too fast for anyone? Does everyone have their Agammemnon?

Meanwhile, for anyone reading their first Greek play, I'd love to know what you think

[JoanK]

BARB: sorry to hear that you are leaving the discussion. We will miss you.

Are the rest of us ready to move on?

[Frybabe]

Barb have a nice time. I've enjoyed all your postings for Antigone.

[PatH]

Yes, Barb.  Your profound theological knowledge meant that you could add something the rest of us weren't able to do.

[JudeS]

Many, many years ago I was a poor student and had to stand in the back to watch a play. It was a performance of Lysistrata
by Aristophanes.
Lysistrata was a heroine for me then and remains one for me today.  If I compare her with Antigone she comes out at least five paces ahead.
But perhaps Lysistrata was not such a tortured soul with a horrendous background like Antigone so she could be a wise and sagacious leader for her people. Especially for the women of her world.

So I see this play "Antigone" named after the protagonist (the play is not called  Creon) who presents us with a world askew after a terrible war in which both her brothers are killed. This lady , does stand up for her beliefs, but causes such horror in her wake.
I wonder if the purpose of the play was to remind us that there are consequences to our actions. No matter how right we feel we are are, our acts may lift up or drag down others in the wake of our self proclaimed "righteousness".Both Creon and Antigone lose much in their battle of beliefs.
The words are sharp and clever, the characters clear and well drawn but what was the playwrite telling us.?
This play was written many years before Oedipus and Oedipus the  King. So Sophocles was telling us to beware. Words, like acts, have consequences.
Most consequences can't be foreseen. Or perhaps, this is an antiwar play showing the unforseen consequences of a battle.
Finally I must say that this play has left me sadder than before I read it.

[JoanK]

I considered reading Lysistrata as part of women in Greek Drama. Whether we read the play or not, she certainly should be part of the discussion of strong women in Greek drama. The plot, for any who don't know it, takes place at a time when Athens is engaged in a seemingly endless war with her neighbors. Lysistrata and the other women decide to go on strike: they won't have sex with men until peace is declared. It works: the men try to bully or persuade them out of it, but in the end, give in and the peace treaty is signed.

The text of the play is mostly jokes about how hot and bothered the men are --- I thought it was a little raunchy perhaps for this site.

 

[Babi]

 Ah, good point, PATH. I hadn't remembered that about the evolvement of the Greek
drama from the festivals.
  I think Antigone was definitely intended to be the protagonist, though of course
Creon was the essential counterpoint to her.  Actually, Antigone's fatal flaw could
have been lack of judgment and common sense, as well as an overblown love of the
dramatic.  Couldn't she have upheld her religious convictions without making a martyr of
herself?  I think the wisest course would have been to send her to a nunnery (was
there an early Greek equivalent of that? ) under a vow of silence. Much more
acceptable to all concerned than killing her.

 Appreciate the two days to start reading Agammemnon. I will need them.

[JoanK]

I find my Fagles translation of Ag harder to read than Antigone, and have gone to a different translation. Please don't any of you struggle too much with a difficult translation. There are lots to choose from out there.

[JoanK]

In Agammemnon, we meet another family with a thorny past, and all the gods mad at it. (You think Oedipus's family had trouble --OYE!) But no Freud to come along later and make them famous, as he did the Oedipus complex. So if you're not familiar with the house of Atreus, I'll give background as needed.

To save typing, lets just call Agammemnon Ag whenever we get tired of typing his name.

[JoanK]

Background:

This, like Antigone, is a simple story that needs a lot of background to make it intelligible. The background is explained in the play, but explained for an audience that already knows it, so it's not very clear.

Agammemnon is of the house of Atrius. This family has a history that is even worse than that of Oedipus. That family history becomes important in the second half of the play, so more on that later.

Meanwhile, those of you who read the Odyssey with us know the story of Agammemnon. Homer repeats it again and again. Aesculus picked it up and elaborated on it, calling it "scraps from the table of Homer". But while Homer assigns right and wrong, Aesculus does not: rather he shows right and wrong on both sides.

Agammemnon had promised his brother Menelaus to help retrieve Menelaus's wife Helen from Troy, and the boy Paris that she had run off with. Ag starts out with a mighty fleet from Argos to Troy. But the wind blows against them: they wait for days but cannot sail. Finally, a prophet tells them that only if Agammemjnon sacrifices his daughter to the gods will the gods allow him to keep his promise.

So he tells his wife, Clytaemnestra, to send his daughter Ipheginaia so she can be married. Instead, he burns her at the stake, the winds come, and he is off to Troy.

As the play opens, it is 10 years later, and no one at Agammemnon's house knows what happened at Troy, or whether he is dead or alive. They are waiting. His wife, Clytemnestra has taken a lover, Aegisthus, Ag's cousin.

The play opens with everyone waiting for a signal from the fleet that went to Troy ...

[JoanK]

The chorus several times refers to an omen that was seen before the war: two eagles swooped down on a pregnant hare and ate it with it's unborn young. The eagles are interpreted as Menelaus and Agammemnon. This is given by the prophet as one of the reasons that Agammemnon must sacrifice his child: to atone for that and for the killing of Troy's children that the omen represents.

If there are other references that you don't understand, bring them here, and we'll work on them together.

[ginny]

Safe trip, Barbara, I enjoyed that about Solon's reforms, Augustus tried something very similar about the over displays of emotion, the tearing of hair and scratching of face and I think he limited the number of professional mourners (which I have always thought was a great idea). I guess by his time funerals got way out of control.

 What a fascinating question on the protagonist and the antagonist, I like what everybody has said here.  I would plump for Creon although he's not much of a hero, tragic or not,  but now reading Babi's persuasive Antigone I don't know. My whole focus was on him, Spark Notes thinks it's Antigone. I'm not so sure.

The main part in the play to me is not Antigone, it's Creon:  she dies, he changes but it's too late. If she is the protagonist what is the climax? Yet Spark Notes  says it's she.

This definition, of Greek protagonists, from PBS, seems to point to Creon:

http://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/background/24c.html

Tragedy: Tragedy dealt with the big themes of love, loss, pride, the abuse of power and the fraught relationships between men and gods. Typically the main protagonist of a tragedy commits some terrible crime without realizing how foolish and arrogant he has been. Then, as he slowly realizes his error, the world crumbles around him. The three great playwrights of tragedy were Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides.

BUT might it also point to Antigone?

I think that's the question of the year, I can't stop thinking about it, just a real mind bender. I keep vacillating.

I am behind in reading, but fascinated by Agamemnon ever since we saw him in the Underworld, I can't wait to see what is made of him. I'll be late, I need more time.

[straudetwo]

It was a disappointment to hear that the dicussion has technically ended. I had hoped for more time, selfishly I confess.  Time constraints have ruled my life for some time and I am seriously behind in my preparations for my son's remarriage next month.
I had wanted and hoped to respond to every interesting post, and there were so many, varied and thoughtful, all. Obviously I fell shorot of my "nobl" intentions, but even a few days, JoanK, are appreciated.

Ginny, I too am not quite finished with Creon, and I will present my thoughts on the matter - as soon as I come back from a mission of mercy :  visiting a dear friend, former neighbor, member of our local book group.  She lives independently in Quincy, Mass, was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's and will have to be transferred to a different facility.

I will be back.
Traude

[JudeS]

When I went to the Shakespeare Festival i picked up a magazine for the play subscribers. In it I found an article on the Structure of the Greek Drama. (Medea is being shown at the festival). Here is the facts as they may be applied to our material.  The Article is by a 19th century German Dramatist, Gustav Freytag.



                                                 CLIMAX


                  Rising Action/                                     \Falling Action

Exposition/                                                                             \Denoument

Using Freytag's pyramid we can overlay the events of the titular characters (in our case Antigone) journeys and see how neatly they coincide . Something happens at the begginning of each play that sets off a chain of events. As the story proceeds ,choices are pondered and complications arise. We soon reach a point of no return. Characters make a fateful decision that will determine how the rest of the story will play out. There is no going back. From that point we watch the characters fortunes crumble or come together until they end either in triumph or in defeat. (Usually triumph is the end to a  Comedy and defeat is the end of a Tragedy.)