Women in Greek Drama

[PatH]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online


Antigone

Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
            Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half

Questions for the second half:

1. In the opening of this section, what is the chorus predicting?

2. It's been said that both Creon and Antigone are one-sided. do you agree?

3. In the argument of Creon and Haemon, what is each saying?  Do you agree with either? How might this argument have been seen in the Greece of Sophocles' time?

4. What is the attitude of the populace toward Creon?

5. Now that she is about to be punished, how does Antigone feel about what she has done?  Does she have any regrets?

6. Does Antigone offer any reason for her fate?

7. As the play goes on, Creon reveals more of his nature. What do we find out about him?  What drives him?

8. Why do they keep on burying the body?

9. At the end,What does Creon find out about himself? Do you think that he will change? What do you see as the future for him?

10. Who is the protagonist?  The antagonist?  What is the fatal flaw? (See discussion for definitions of those terms).
 
11.What part does fate play in this drama?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow great - that is so much better than the articles I was reading that said we were up to the 12% from 11% and world wide the average was 19% - this is thousands of times better - I was shocked at that number as well - thank you, thank you - however, we seldom think about the risk when we are planning the nursery and the baby showers - that risk makes the disrespect for women all the more startling and also makes us realize the courage that we ignore for all moms. Since I have known over the years three women who lost their life giving birth there is a lingering memory of how devastating it is for the young family.

[BarbStAubrey]

This story is so compelling for me because I see that there is a clash of values that is often shaped by not only our beliefs but how we see our responsibilities in life.

For years I have been heavily reading to better understand Power and Evil - I realized along the way that some Evil is how I view the world as compared to other views - I would like to believe that there is a common shared value system and where I was accepting there are cultural difference I saw those that shared my religion, politics and even gender as playing power games rather than my seeing this clash that takes place as each individual views their place in the world based on their identity and responsibilities.

Not to say we use our power to manipulate - as one book I remember points out the power tactics a five year old will use to get a sweet or toy - it is when folks use power to over-power - to put down - to even destroy another's reputation, belief in themselves, not allow them the freedom to be who they are -

Helpful was when I read a quote that said something about Evil being a lack of light - and Power is used on others to their detriment by people who can - Still I searched - I cannot enlighten all those who are evil and yet, I became more and more aware enlighten to what - my viewpoint? my values? - Oh it is difficult and I do often slip astonished when someone sounds like they are coming from a different point of view - but each time it is as if a mirror to question my own values - and with this story I am finally accepting there is no utopia - there will always be clashes - not out of folks being mean, uncaring, unjust, or trying to subjugate for the sake of a Power game - but because they need to have the control that allows them to bring circumstances within their control.

OK after all that I can see Jude I am sorry - I was not honoring your views - I was seeing them in opposition and tried to make the case - sorry sorry - I do not agree but then we know that - hmm is that what a discussion is - to make the case for our views - now I am in a muddle - ok - a cup of coffee and some mediation is in order - I know - sounds dramatic - but this story really has me by the tail and is opening a big wide window how to respect other's opinions while still championing my own ...

[JudeS]

Barb
Don't worry.
I am not upset or put off by your views.

However there is one point that I really disagree with.
That is when people join the army they are not usually preparing for death but trying to learn how NOT to die. Also a lot depends on wether your country is in danger or what exactly you are defending.
Many, many  also join up not because of noble motives but because it is the best thing the world is offering them at the moment.
I even know of cases in which in a juvenile criminal court the Judge tells the young man: "Go to prison or join the army. Your choice."
If you take a hundred men and ask them for their motives for joining the armed forces you will get at least 50 different answers. I doubt one will say," I am not afraid to die for my country". Unless of course he\she is a braggart or afraid to reveal his\her real motives.

Certainly there are very few women that think:" if I get pregnant I might die."  If you are thinking of what is known as "High Risk Pregnancies" than the choice is not  one of values but of deciding how to LIVE ones life and not how to die for it.Women die  but not many., When a woman finds out that she is pregnant, I doubt her first thought is this means death. Except of course if she is unmarried and living in a society that kills unwed mothers.


As for Antigone ,"the lady doth protest too much".

[BarbStAubrey]

hmmm on the soldiers - yes, there is all that you say especially during peace time - I am thinking aloud and these are things that enter the picture for me - yes, the soldiers train to stay alive as you say and yet, I am remembering when they went into battle, mostly during WWII wrote farewell letters home - sure some ran or hid but many put a noble viewpoint on the risk they knew they were taking and were willing to give their all for their country - their fellow soldiers - for their family's future wellbeing -

To me all that is a country or city state are the people - each family added to another family and another friend - the rest is Real Estate although even that - it is someone's home and folks will fight to protect it. Once a fight goes beyond words there is the risk that somehow, folks are not oblivious and they decide their need to protect what they value is greater than their life.

I know you are right about women's instinct to think of the future life rather than to be fearful or filled with exceptional courage, just as soldiers train to protect their life and their country rather than be fearful - I do think we habitually minimize the risk so that the fear does not overwhelm and stops us from moving forward - I remember talking with other young pregnant women when I was pregnant not about the fear of my death but the fear of the baby dying during its birth - many of us would wake up with nightmares that our baby died at birth - so I do think there are some events in life that we muster courage or we take on the event looking and sounding fearless in order to protect what we value.

I also think today some often hand over their fears to God but in the days of the Greek Gods they were not as dependable - later in history we have many stories of folks holding their head up high and walking to their death - all because they would not renounce what the leadership at the time wanted.

During this time in history I do not see Antigone finally doing what she thinks is right and then high tailing it out of Thebes - which is what finally a domestically abused women with outside help will do - that to me was her downfall - she had no outside help to get her out of Thebes and so she was boxed in. She would also have had to cut all her ties with her family and that is not easy either.

I think she was put in an unattainable situation and she was angry lashing out - that is how I see both of them lashing out at each other because the other won't budge to see and make room for their responsibilities in life. Oh dear we are going around and around - I see it one way and others another - so far I cannot get a handle on seeing this another way - I will try to be open but what can I say... I think it is too easy to put labels on folks who act in a way we do not understand or agree with and that is maybe what is chaffing -

[PatH]

Why do you have to see it another way, Barb?  The reason this play has survived for so long is that is has something for everyone, and can be interpreted in a number of ways.

[PatH]

Something for everyone--what's particularly interesting me at the moment is power, and Creon's use of it.  He has been regent of Thebes several times before, but now, for the first time, he is really the king, and he's developing his style of ruling.  It shows his personality, and not always for the good.

[Babi]

 Martyr complex. That fits beautifully, JUDE.  Being more of an Ismene type myself, I
would be inclined more to 'fool' than heroine, but the very word 'complex' says that this
is much more than simple foolishness. Thanks for that insight.

 Can't see martyr complex as the attitude of the average volunteer soldier, BARB. Most
of them enter with more of an attitude of 'gotta do it necessity' and probably a desire
to not make a bad showing of it.
  We don't really know much of anything about Antigone before this event, so it's hard
to say what her general behavior was like. From various comments by Creon and the chorus,
tho', I gather she does have a reputation for being stubborn and outspoken.

 PAT, (et al) what do you think of Creon’s statement, “Lawful authority must be obeyed in all things, great or small, just and unjust alike;..”?  Just and unjust?  Not in my view.  Obviously, our founding fathers did not take that viewpoint either.  And considering the number
of governments that have been violently driven out in the past couple of years,  most people
do not.

 I really sympathize with Haemon.  He tried to approach his father diplomatically and respectfully.  Again and again he assured him of his love and concern for him. He
I have to admire his words, “..no son can find a greater prize than his own father’s fame,
no father than his son’s.”   Then he goes on to urge him, “Therefore let not this single thought possess you: only what you say is right, and nothing else.”   It’s a pity his father would not listen to him.  He starts off by accusing him of being 'the ally of the woman’, becomes more and more angry, and ends by calling him 'a woman’s plaything’.   At the end he can only accuse his son of being ruled by a woman, a thing that he finds unbearable.  His contempt for women really surfaces here.
 

[PatH]

Babi, you've put your finger on what I feel about Creon.  He has a sort of arrogant, single-minded inflexibility.  In my book I underlined the passage you quoted (it's even closer to what I feel in my book "...that man the city places in authority, his orders must be obeyed, large and small, right and wrong."  I also underlined the sentry's remark "Oh it's terrible when the one who does the judging judges things all wrong."

Creon totally fails to see that there must be limits to a good ruler's power; it cannot be absolute.

[PatH]

Today starts the second half of the play, but that doesn't mean we have to stop our good conversations about the first half.  I put the new questions at the top of this page; old ones are still on the previous pages if anyone wants them.  JoanK will post some more technicalities about Greek drama later.

[JoanK]

As promised, here is an interesting quote about the structure of Greek drama:

" A Greek tragedy has the following characteristics:

It is based on events that already took place. The audience is familiar with these events.
 
The protagonist (main character) is a person of noble birth and stature.
 
The protagonist has a weakness and, because of it, becomes isolated and suffers a downfall.
 
Because the protagonist's fall is not entirely his or her own fault, the audience may end up pitying him or her.
 
The fallen protagonist gains self-knowledge. He has a deeper insight into himself and understands his weakness.
 
The audience undergoes catharsis, a purging of emotions, after experiencing pity, fear, shock and other strong feelings. The people go away feeling better.
 
The drama usually unfolds in one place in a short period of time, generally about one day. "

Source: http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides6/antigone.html

[JoanK]

The weakness refered to above is sometimes called the "fatal flaw". It's referred to in the questions above, where I ask: who is the protagonist in Antigone, and what is his/her fatal flaw?

[JoanK]

This structure of greek tragedy is one of the things I see in common with opera. So different from most drama we go to, where we want to know "what happens." We know when we go to an opera (Remember the scene in "Moonstruck" where Cher complains "you didn't tell me that she dies!") and go for other reasons. Is "catharsis" one of them?

[Babi]

 Creon’s ideas of government are surprisingly self-centered.  I thought the Greek’s treasured
a more democratic approach to government.  He feels he has to right to do whatever he likes.
“The King is lord and master of his city.”    He feels that to 'regard  my own prerogative’ is perfectly just.  “Am I to rule for them [the people of the city] not for myself?”    Uh, well, yes.  That's my idea of the role of a king, ie, protector of his people.

  I note the curious (to me) role of the chorus again.  Chorus asks the question of Creon whether
he intends to kill both Antigone and Ismene.  Creon not only answers the question, he says
“Thank you”, apparently for reminding him that Ismene is not a guilty party.  It that what's
happening?

   I must remind myself that I need to bear in mind the Greek religious beliefs and mindset.
The chorus responds to Antigone by proclaiming her act as one that will bring her renown
while she yet lives and a glory that will long outlive her.  I really am looking forward to
comparing Sophocles with the other tragedians we will be discussing.  Do they all feel that
way?  Considering the popularity of the play, I must think that the majority, at least, agree.

[PatH]

Here's what the reference JoanK quoted in post 170 says about the chorus:

".......The chorus generally had the following roles in the plays of Sophocles:  

To explain the action
To interpret the action in relation to the law of the state and the law of the Olympian gods
To foreshadow the future
To serve as an actor in the play
To sing and/or dance
To present the author's views.  
In some ways, the chorus is like the narrator of a modern film or like the background music accompanying the action of the film. In addition, it is like text on the film screen that provides background information or identifies the time and place of the action."

   I note the curious (to me) role of the chorus again.  Chorus asks the question of Creon whether
he intends to kill both Antigone and Ismene.  Creon not only answers the question, he says
“Thank you”, apparently for reminding him that Ismene is not a guilty party.  It that what's
happening?

Yes, I think so.  In Kitto, Creon says "thank you"; in Fagles and Fitzgerald, he says he won't kill "the one whose hands are clean--you're quite right."

In Fagles, it is the Leader of the chorus (or of the old men of Thebes) who speaks.

[JudeS]

Could this play possibly be a fight between Church and State?

It seems for as long s there have been divinities there has been this clash.

I have a book called Greek and Roman writers that I found in a library sale when we were reading Odysseus.
The author, who teaches this subject,says much about the play but I will quote only the last part of his last paragraph:

"As you read the play , note that the clash of personsis not simply one between a virtuous heroine and a bullying villain:  Antigone is a girl stubbornly intent on doing which she is convinced must be done, while Creon is equally convinced  HE is in the right. Note, too, the impossible position in which divided loyalties place Haimon."

       Reverend Andrew T. Mcniff, O.S.C.


       Catholic Education Division-The MacMillan Co.

[Frybabe]

This play is truly one for the ages. While reading an article in The Economist about the a North Korean prison, it stuck me that not only is the person (criminal or political prisoner) punished for alleged crimes, but so is their family. The article said that it isn't unusual for three generations of family members to be punished for what one person supposedly did. If a prisoner escapes or causes trouble the family on the outside suffer, including murder. Sounds like Oedipus and his kin.

I am curious on line 1033 of the Bagg/Scully translation Antigone says:

"I'm the last daughter of the kings who ruled you."

As far as I can tell, Ismene is still alive. Kreon decided to spare her. Is Antigone referring to being the youngest, or does she no longer consider Ismene a family member? I noticed the we do not see Ismene again in the second half of the play.

Certainly sounds like it is a clash between church and state, Jude. Tirenias did come to raise his objections and warn Kreon of what might befall him if he persisted.

[JoanK]

"I'm the last daughter of the kings who ruled you."

Good get, JUDE. Ismene has been spared, but Antigone may not know it, and think she has been killed. Or it may be a simple mistake.

It could, indeed, be thought of as a clash between church and state, since Antigone is doing what her religion tells her to do.

But Antigone has an additional argument: duty toward his brother. Creon also has two arguments although that's not stated: duty to obey the law, and duty toward your country and against its foes. There are four ethical principles involved here.

Creon proves to be a poor representative of duty to law. While at the beginning, he is arguing ethical priciples, as he is challanged, these melt away, and we have -- what? But the principles are still there.

You could imagine situations where any of these principles are in conflict. How do we decide?

[Babi]

 Interesting thought, JUDE. I hadn't considered it in that light, though I have been
 wondering how different, or similar, my stand on a religious issue might be compared to
Antigone.

 I was puzzled by that remark of Antigone's also, FRYBABE. Again, Antigone seems to be
viewing herself in a manner that suggests, what is the old phrase? 'Delusions of grandeur."
 Chorus says, “Your self-willed pride has been your ruin.”  So, if she had left her 'self-willed
pride’ out of the picture,  could she have accomplished her task secretly, without
offending either the gods or the authorities?
 
 

Creon proves to be a poor representative of duty to law.

Oh, yeah, JOANK. Cleon has some strange views on responsibility.  Since he is not killing Antigone outright,
but merely sealing her up in a cave to starve to death, he claims “my hands are clean”.  Is
this a dodge that’s been successful with the Greek gods?

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm Babi when the Guards first reported to Creon they did not know who it was that gave burial rights to the body - seems to me she did act in secret. At that point the only person she had confided in was her sister. Only after she is caught and does not act guilty as if she did wrong does she get accused of being prideful.

Are you thinking that Creon would have acted differently to her if she hung her head and admitted wrong - would she not still be punished - and if she was not strong standing up for her actions what would that say - that we are all slaves to the power that be and moral justification is less important than the skill and will of a leader?

I think as readers if we try to assign guilt or innocence - good or bad - drama or control - we are missing the dynamics that are rife in this story. This story can be the Greek version of a parable where attitude and actions can be a lesson in outcome. It is easy to minimize and label a character as unworthy whose actions make us uncomfortable.

The bit between Haemon and Creon was like a blueprint for teenage and father placing a marker on the choices of a teen. You can hear it now...

NO you will not take that girl to the prom - in fact you will never again see that girl or her sister -

But Dad I know you have more experience but are you sure - I do see them in school everyday and of all the girls she is the smartest -

At your age you still obey - that whole family is a menace - her brother used his knowledge of our neighborhood to try to rob all of us and caused the death of our leader, her other brother -

But Dad it is not right to punish his sister -

Like it isn't right to punish those who planned 9/11? Grow up -

But everyone is for her -

Everyone? Like all those who danced on a float at night in the river so two of your classmates drowned - Everyone who climbed the mountain without a guide and lost their life - these are the Everyone who should be taking over my job and leading this community...

The community and school activities do not belong to just you

Enough Haemon Go to your room

On and on the banter goes even as Haemon climbs the stairs to his room - In comes his wife, Haemon's mother -

Are you sure you want to do this Creon

Not you too - no one questioned leadership in the past - the final word is the final word and my final word is that boy is not going to the Prom and will not see that girl and her sister ever again if we have to keep him locked in this house. We have no idea what hoodlum friends of the brother from the next town that girl has befriended and they will be trying to rob our houses. This time our house was spared but what do you say to your neighbors who can only sleep with one eye opened because of the invasion into our community by her brother.

Yes, I understand but Haemon is your son

Yes, he is my son and needs to learn to obey - if everyone thinks their opinion should be the way we do things we will be lost in sorting out opinions and handling the losers who will be unhappy. We have leadership to protect ourselves from the squabbling and unhappy outcomes so that we can live in peace - it is easy to want our hearts to rule but that is what this girl's brother did and where did it get him?

Wife goes to the upstairs craft room - soon Haemon comes into the room telling his mother how unfair his father is acting.

Does she commiserate with her son and let him know her heart or does she support her husband and repeat to her son the rational for his father's behavior?

As readers, we can read this with our heart or our heads - I am thinking that today we may see this as a Church/State dichotomy - we can also see this as a clash of cultures as we take on al-Qaeda and other aggressive conservative groups who want the downfall of a more liberal society. The dynamics are so indicative of conflict today.

[JoanK]

BARB: THAT'S BRILLIANT! You're exactly right!

[ginny]

I was very interested to hear that Sophocles was said to have  recited parts of Antigone on his deathbed. That's the rumor, it may be apocryphal. If not, I'd love to know which part of Antigone he thought the point, which part he felt had the most resonance.

I like this question in the heading:

8. Why do they keep on burying the body?

It's hard to keep track of the burying. Even now I'm not sure this is right?  After Antigone buried Polyneices the sentries found  the body when they caught her tidying up the grave (line 478) and uncovered the body and left it (500) on a hilltop. She came along and brought handfuls of dust and an urn and tried in that way to "rebury" it (520).  So then apparently it was left out (was it uncovered again or did she not really get enough handfuls of dust on it before they apprehended her?) and it's scattered by the dogs....

Here comes Teiresias, the blind prophet, and it seems that he is the one who reveals to Kreon the wrong in what he's done. At least he reminds him that  (in lines 1240 on) he's

"dishonored a  living soul with exile in the tomb...
You are detaining here, moreover,
a dead body, unsanctified, and so unholy...
Therefore, relentless destroyers pursue you,
Furies of death and deity;
they lie in wait for you now
to catch you in the midst of your crimes...
All the enemy nations will be aroused,
all whose altars are stinking and corrupted
with the torn fragments the dogs, wild beasts, and birds
bring."

It is probably that last that gets to Kreon, the thought that the enemy nations will be outraged by his altars with torn dishonored fragments on them, corrupted and the Furies after him; but either way,  he begins to see the error of his ways. So he burns the remains the dogs have dragged off and "heaped him a barrow of earth of his homeland,
straight and lofty..."

So he buries it. (Is it Kreon who does the actual burying? In my text it's hard to say, the Messenger sort of slides over that.)  He seems to be burying it to save his own neck, to make it "right," to finally honor the dead whom he has defiled.

And then (the thing is full of doubles, parallels, duplicity) he proceeds to "unbury" Antigone from her own stone living tomb but it's too late. and for Haimon too.

So he finally realizes (in 1510 ff) his error and the Chorus at last seems to be on the right track, and gives a moral to the story which seems to be:

 "To be sensible and to be  pious
are the first and last of happiness....the proud pay with great wounds...And great wounds before today
have taught sense even to the aged."


But the  Chorus throughout, to me,  is the most confusing thing in the whole piece. They seem to me to be  all over the place, I don't see a lot of wisdom, they seem vacillating,  they are no help, are they reflecting the crowd's sensibilities? I don't understand their positions or the reasons for it,  unless it's to share in the blame too.

I did like Antigone's speech on Niobe:

I know of her death;
like tightened ivy a strong growth covered her.
Now she shrinks in incessant rain and snowfall,
and off her brow, a cliff,
fall tears to drench the hill breast.
Mine is like her death night.

Isn't that fantastic? There's a great rock in Turkey which is supposed to be Niobe turned to rock:
 

Of course the Chorus is right there to tell her she's not a demi god like Niobe, so in that they take Kreon's side as well, and in so doing completely miss the point of her speech.


And as Babi said a while back, Kreon is really revealed in this second half as to why he's really done this, for instance here: (821 ff)

That's why we have to defend orderly people,
and never let women get the better of us.
If we must fall, better to fall to a real man
and not be called worse than women.

He won't listen to anybody. The Chorus  and the attendants like Koryphaios fawn on him and agree with him, and in so doing they themselves have to bear some of the blame, too. They are all wrong ultimately, and she appears the only one with enough courage to stand up for what's right.

To me, it's a tragedy,  and I think the climax is when Kreon realizes his mistake:

Line 1289:  "I've changed my mind.
I did it and I'll undo it..."

But it's too late. Or might the climax be when she is discovered dead?

At any rate his tragic flaw, I would say, is pride, thinking he knows more than anybody else and his perceptions are the only ones which matter, and as the Messenger says, "he's lost everything."

Sic transit. A really great choice of a play. I'm glad I had the chance to read it even tho the Chorus to me makes absolutely no sense. I wonder if you could see it, them turning back and forth as they pronounce their comments. Would that  make more sense and really add to the drama? Have any of you ever seen it performed?

[JoanK]

Only bits of it, not the chorus. I agree. sometimes, the chorus seems to be just a bunch of Thebans: other times, they are the author and give the moral.

But notice Pat's post 174 on the role of the chorus. that's what they do, all right. I keep trying to make them into one thing, or one person, but it doesn't work!

let's see if this is true in the other plays too.

[JoanK]

From post 170 above:

The protagonist (main character) is a person of noble birth and stature.
 
The protagonist has a weakness and, because of it, becomes isolated and suffers a downfall.
 
Because the protagonist's fall is not entirely his or her own fault, the audience may end up pitying him or her.
 
The fallen protagonist gains self-knowledge. He has a deeper insight into himself and understands his weakness.
 
I forgot to post about the antagonist. the protagonist's fall is due to an "antagonist" who may oppose him/her.

In this play, who is the "protagonist"? And who the "antagonist"? And what is the weakness or fatal flaw that leads to their destruction?

[straudetwo]

Jude's question in message # 156 is intriguing :  "Is Antigone a heroine or a fool ? I hope we'll get back to it.  \Toward the end of the play we hear her own words, and both she and her words sound changed. But I will not jump ahead.I fee there is moe to be said about Creon.

My copy of the play, translation by Prof. Paul Woodruff, has copious notes similar to yours, and the footnotes refer mostly to alternative linguistic choices which do not appear (to me) to be significant for the understanding of the contemporary reader. ierestingly, he reports that his students generall favor Creon over Antigone.  (He is still with us and we could ask him whether those students afe all men   .)

continuing ...  

[straudetwo]

JoanK,  
the question of what the flaw or essential weakness  is in this drama may call for a conclusion. For my part I do not feel quite ready for that.  I would like to first add my comments regarding Creon.  He is mentioned in a list of the Theban kings beginning with Cadmus, and what is said about hin in that reference may be worth reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theban_kings_in_Greek_mythology

I checked the link and it works. Just scroll down to the list of names, all kings - except for  Creon, who is listed as  as regent (for Eteocles and Polyneices).   Creon lived on after  Antigone's death, the history of Thebes continued, and Creon became regent once again for the son of Eteocles. And years afer that for Heracles, so of Alcmene and Zeus in the guise of her husband Amphitrion.

I will elaborate on these thoughts tomorrow. It is late and the artificial light is hindering rather than helping. I can't spot my typos in time and, frankly, that offends my sense of order    jhahaha

[Babi]

Far be it from me to assign guilt of innocence. BARB ...unless I'm on the jury. I'm more interested in Antigone's motivations, and why she chose the path of open defiance.

 Antigone’s words, “Yet what I did, the wise will all approve.”  She goes on to say
that she would not have defied the civil law for a husband or a son, for they would be
replaceable, whereas her last brother was not.  Very shocking, from the modern viewpoint.  However, my explanatory notes state that this entire section  has been questioned.  Some believe they were not written by Sophocles, but were quotes inserted from Aristotle’s “Rhetoric”,  ie..
“But since my mother and my father|Have both gone to the grave, there can be none| Henceforth that I can ever call my brother”. (Rhet. 3, 16.9, lines 911-12)
   What puzzles me is, would it not be more natural to assume that Aristotle had quoted the words from Sophocles, since Sophocles predates him by a century?  Especially since the introduction notes that Aristotle, in his “Ethics” expressed the view that “Sophoclean drama brought the genre of tragedy to its consummate achievements...”.   Obviously he has  a high regard for the tragedian.

 Here, at least, are some lines from Antigone that I can empathize with. “If this is what the Gods approve, why then, when I am dead I shall discern my fault; If theirs is the sin, may they endure a doom no worse than mine, so wantonly inflicted.”

[BarbStAubrey]

Ah, I think what she is saying is that she could find another husband and have another child but there is no way she can reproduce or replace a brother -

I take is as the daughter of the king she probably pretty much had freedom that others in the city or the palace may not have had - She is dealing with a person taking over as king that is not her brother or her father - she would have to get used to her new role where his children, namely Haemon is more important. Then part of feeling she is being put in her place as less important by this new king was accomplished with a pointed attack. He made an edict that is a direct affront to her family - I think this is a battle of wills - and both have stepped into their stubborn prideful mode.

I see this as a clash that was bound to happen and toe to toe they are into it with no winners - I just do not think a change in her attitude would have made a difference - the only difference I can see is if she obeyed the edict and not attempted to bury her brother. When it comes down to it why in the world would Creon choose to create this animosity between himself and the two sisters. No one else was affected on an emotional level -

The unburied body would be just one more dead body to the rest of the city but to the two sisters that was a huge affront - was he trying to assert his power since the father and brother of these two sisters was so loved by the city and he believed he has to wrest power by showing the bad side of this family and making sure the sisters were under his thumb.

All we can really do is imagine and project our thinking on why either Antigone or Creon acted as they did - other than to accept what the story tells us - oh there may be scholars over the generations who want their ideas used to explain the story and the behavior of the characters but their ideas are just that, their ideas based on their research and study - we just do not know - the story is what it is and motive is stated - if the motive written is not satisfying I think that is saying we, as individuals cannot imagine acting in this manner  because of these motives and we want more justification for what they did -

I've been down that road for years in my personal life - I remember learning a lesson when attended a meeting of folks discussing childhood traumas and one girl shared her father drove over her sled that she left in the driveway and in tears explains how this caused her untold grief that her father did not love her - the rest of the room looked in shock since they were dealing with far, far more abuse till we finally had to accept that we can not measure the depth of anyone's anguish nor judge if they are worthy of their feelings -

And so, my thinking is we cannot judge the depth of feeling Antigone had for her brother or how the edict denying him burial rights affected her other than, to accept the story showing us her feelings rather than, thinking she is over playing the part or, as if the the part is written as a dramatically, over the top, play-acting within the play to gain attention from the audience for her character.  This is the story we are reading - if it is based on facts that is beside the point - we are reading this play with these characters saying and doing these things with the motives given that we may not share the same reaction to those motives.

If we are questioning the way the characters have expressed their motives I think it only appropriate to look at the alternatives given the circumstances. Of course by doing that we are re-writing the play to meet our idea of how folks are supposed to act and re-act to what life throws at them.

Today, when a clash happens one side wants to determine the motive of the other in a way that makes their cause look worthy and then, the winner is the one who places into the annuls of history the motive as they see it and in the process they often re-write history.

Yes, today we do have a different set of values than what folks valued during the time of Sophocles and yet, so much about this play with different reasons for a clash is still the blueprint for conflict - it is as if the issues have changed in their importance but the system that is the blueprint of conflict remains.

[PatH]

Yes, today we do have a different set of values than what folks valued during the time of Sophocles and yet, so much about this play with different reasons for a clash is still the blueprint for conflict - it is as if the issues have changed in their importance but the system that is the blueprint of conflict remains.

The blueprint of conflict.  Good phrase; it does make the play timeless.

[straudetwo]

Cpnflicy indeed. But it began earlier namely when Oedipus sons, who iitially were to switch their reign annually, had the falling out. Eteocles refuswed to step down, expelled his elder (!) brother, who escaped to Argos to get togethef an army of sympathizer. And when they came marching in,  there was the potential for civil war.
Their mutual fratricide on the battlefield then became Creon's concern.

We are not sure of what age Antigone was at that time. We know that Oedipus was king long enough to see the sons and daughters grow up.
After his disgrace he stayed on in Thebes for an unknown period, then left accompanied by Antigone. After his death she returned.
We also don't now when Antigone and Haemon were betrothed,  But it can be assumed that they were not teenagers any more. To be frank, since I first read the play long ago, I have had the feeling that Haemon liked Antigone more than she him.  And we do not learn of this relationship right away, either.

In re question 1.  Here is proof, if any were needed, that siblings can be totally different in their characteristics and predispositions. Ismene    had the same perspicacity as Antigone,  but she showed no sign of Antigone's impulsiveness and more aware of the mortal danger that would follow Antigone's  conceived action, and willing to actually talk about it. Which is what the sisters did.  Their conversation at the beginning of the play began "mildly" enough, though it seemed that Antigone had already decided to execute her plan.When Ismene was horrified, Antigone prodded and then spoke to her in words that made me wince.  The reader knows from the very outset that the die is cast - Alea iacta est.

[JoanK]

Straude :thanks for letting us know what happened to Creon after the play is over.

From her citation:

:After the deaths of Polyneices and Eteocles, Jocasta's brother Creon, who before had governed Thebes after the death of Laius and after the exile of Oedipus, became regent for Eteocles' son Laodamas. It was during one of Creon's reigns that Heracles was born in Thebes. Creon served as protector of Heracles, his stepfather Amphitryon, and mother Alcmene. Creon even gave his daughter Megara in marriage to Heracles. In return, Heracles defended Thebes in two more wars that Thebes became entangled in, first against King Erginus of Minyan Orchomenus, then against King Pyraechmus of Euboea.
 
After the death of Eteocles and Polynices, Creon prohibited a proper burial of Polyneices and his Argive allies. Theseus, King of Athens, led an army against Thebes and compelled Creon to give the fallen heroes the correct rites. When Eteocles' son Laodamas came of age, Creon resigned the rule to him. Like his father, King Laodamas was confronted with an attack by the Epigoni, the sons of the Seven led by Polyneices' son Thersander. The Epigoni succeeded, and Thersander was installed as king of Thebes. King Laodamas was killed died during this war."

[PatH]

Nobody's motives are simple black and white in this play.  Creon's excuse for not burying Polynices is that he is a traitor.  But what kind of treachery is it to attack your city if you are the lawful ruler who has been pushed out?   Not quite straightforward.

The deaths of the brothers is more complicated than this play brings out.  When the siege of Thebes was stalemated, neither side able to win, it was decided to settle the matter by single-handed combat between the brothers.  That didn't work, since they were both killed; the fighting resumed, and Creon finally won.

Traude, I too felt that although we see Haemon's strong love for Antigone, we don't see reciprocal feelings in her.  She expresses regret that she won't get to be a wife and mother, but Haemon isn't mentioned.

[JoanK]

So many good thoughts here: thank you.

The passage where Antigone says she would do what she did for a brother, but not for a husband or child shocked me. Fagles says that scholars have been trying to prove that Sophecles didn't write it for centuries. It does diminish Antagone's heroism in my eyes, and those of others.

The argument is given in Aristotle for a case in which a woman can save the life of either her husband, child or brother. She choses her brother, since only he cannot be replaced.

This, Fagles points out, makes more sense than Antigone's argument. For Antigone, it's not a case of saving a life, so lack of replacement shouldn't come into it. Even so, Fagles thinks the passage is a genuine part of the play.

[JoanK]

It does point out something about Antigone: have you noticed how little affection she seems to have for anyone besides her brother. She sneers at Iwsmene, and never even mentions Haemon by name, only in the abstract. Of course, we never get to see the two of them together.

[JoanK]

Pat: we were posting together!

[BarbStAubrey]

I get the impression that Antigone is wanting to have an intimate connection with those in the afterlife - just as some today want a deeper connection with God - she sounds like she has a yearning and aching for a connection that for centuries many have devoted their lives to a monastery where a contemplative life is possible just to become closer to God.

At this time in history there was not among the Greeks the knowledge, much less belief in one God and so, the concept of eternity and that pull that aches in our heart that we call a pull towards God is understood and explained as those who are below, no longer with us as well as, the many gods.

I will bury him.
It seems fair to me to die doing it.
I will lie dear to him, with one dear to me,
a holy outlaw, since I must please those
below a longer time than people here,
for I shall lie there forever. You, though,
dishonor the gods' commands, if you wish.

Yes, I can see how she does not seem to have the same need for intimacy with Haemon or her sister or even her future - when she says she will be the bride of Death it is as if she is a bride to eternity and she wants to be remembered as a Holy outlaw - How many saints in the annuls of church history were considered Holy outlaws - How many who questioned and rebelled against the political and governing aspect of the Roman Catholic Church, like Luther, are considered Holy outlaws.

Antigone has a view of herself as an independent individual. As the chorus says, alone of mortals, you will go, the ruler of yourself. She will not be a slave to men or kings and she is capable of acting with devotion equal to any man as compared to her sister who very much spoke knowing her place in society therefore, her obedience to man-made law. As straudetwo reminds us

siblings can be totally different in their characteristics and predispositions.

Wow truer words were never spoken Pat

Nobody's motives are simple black and white in this play.

although I wonder if each character sees their motive as pure white and those in disagreement as black - leaving us the reader or those watching the play to see both sides of each position.

Could that be the confusion we notice of the Chorus - they are commenting on the black and white within each position and they are not coming down on the side of one versus the other. In one section they speak highly of Antigone being a ruler of herself and then they agree with Ismene that she is sacrificing her body because for a women Reverence is not tolerated.

Reverence is a mark of character,
but power, for a man who has it,
does not tolerate offenses against itself.
Your self-guiding anger destroyed you.

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm I wonder - was Antigone's story the basis for the actions - a prototype for us to understand and give value to other Holy Outlaws like the seven Jewish brothers, their mother and their teacher, known as the Holy Maccabean Martyrs or Holy Maccabees or the Holy Outlaws, named from the description of their martyrdom in 2 and 4 Maccabees. Antiochus prohibited the practices of the traditionalists - a departure from usual Seleucid practice, banning the religion of an entire people. Some scholars argue that while the rising began as a religious rebellion, it was gradually transformed into a war of national liberation.

Antigone was not one of several like a Maccabee or a Joan of Arc raising an army in rebellion - her belief rose within her and she dies alone for her belief.

Another called a 'Holy Outlaw' is lifelong peace activist Father Daniel Berrigan, a Jesuit priest, poet, pacifist, educator, social activist, playwright and lifelong resister to what he calls "American military imperialism." One of the country’s leading peace activists of the past half-century.

In 1967 arrested at the Pentagon. He with the group spent a couple of weeks in a fast while in Jail. In 1968, he traveled to North Vietnam with Howard Zinn to bring home three U.S. prisoners of war. Later that year he made national headlines when he and eight others burned draft files in Catonsville Maryland. In 1970 he spent four months living underground as a fugitive from the FBI.

In the early 1980s he helped launch the international anti-nuclear Plowshares movement when he and seven others poured blood and hammered on warheads at a GE nuclear missile plant in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. This launched the Plowshares movement - e.g. a group in Dublin went into Shannon airport and poured their blood, and did symbolic damage to an American troop plane that was secretly refueling at Shannon on its way to Iraq. They were tried three times and finally acquitted by an Irish jury.

[BarbStAubrey]

Holy Hannah so now we have Romeo and Juliet and Romeo's mother kills herself - I wonder how many other Greek stories are the basis for a play written later in history.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - not much different today between the "right" and liberals -

I know well that no human is strong enough to pollute the gods.

The footnotes indicate this refers to an idea contrary to traditional Greek piety, but in vogue with 5th-century Athenian humanism and rational thinking.

Humanism attaches importance to human rather than to the divine or supernatural. Humanism is about the notion of human nature.

Secular humanism suggests reason, ethics, and justice, while rejecting supernatural and religious dogma as a basis of morality and decision-making. Religious humanism, is an integration of humanist ethical philosophy with religious rituals and beliefs that center on human needs, interests, and abilities.

Where as Greek piety refers to religious devotion, rituals and spirituality as a way to win the favour or forgiveness of a god.

[PatH]

I wonder how many other Greek stories are the basis for a play written later in history.

Quite a lot--the Greeks invented most of the good plots.