GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[BooksAdmin]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

...beginning JULY 1.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX

Chapter I

1. You first impressions of Pip?   If he is the central focus of the novel, do you get an idea  of his character and how he will develop from the opening pages?
 
2.  We're told that Dickens began Great Expectations, intending to write a light, humorous tale.  Do you see any examples of humor in the opening scenes of the book?

3.  What can you find about the Hulks?  Where are they coming from?  Where are they going?

Chapter II

1. Has Pip  had  any attention, nurturing,  or education in the Gargery home that you can see?  How is the sister who raised him described?  Is she an important character in Pip's formation?

2. What frightens Pip more, the man with the his leg in irons; the other convict who wants his liver, his sister's hand when she discovers he has stolen,  or his own conscience if he carries out the convict's request?  

3. Is Joe Gargery truly Joe's friend and  protector?  If so, why did he get him in trouble for  bolting his bread?  Do you get the sense that this is Christmas Eve in the Gargery house?

Chapter III

1. Does Pip seem to pity the convict's situation, or is he simply terrifyed of his threat?  Why did Pip bring him the "veritable feast," and the brandy?  Was this necessary?

2.  "I couldn't help it, it wasn't for myself," protests Pip to the black ox.  Does Pip have a  conscience or does  he just fear he will get caught?

Chapter IV

1.   Were you at all surprised at Pip's description of Mrs. Joe as a hostess?,   Fairly perceptive for such a young boy, don't you think? How old is Pip when the story begins?

2.  How does the Gargery circle of friends view Pip?  Why would Pip not be allowed to address Joe's uncle as Uncle Pumblechook?  Do you think he'll be an important person in Pip's life?

3. Sister lists her catalogue of the trouble Pip has been to her, tells the assembled how she has wished him in his grave and then asks,   "Why are the young never grateful?"  Is Dickens defending orphan children in general from this unfair assessment? [/td][/tr][/table]

Chapter V

1. Why is Pip hopeful that his convict will not be found?  Is it simply because he's afraid he'd think he brought the soldiers to the marshes? Is he still fearful of the convict?

2.  How did Joe react to the convict's confession that he stole the "wittles" Pip had brought to him?  How to explain this pact of silence between Pip and the convict?

Chapter VI

1.  Pip loves Joe "because the dear fellow let me love him."  What does this tell about Joe's personality?

2.  Why does Pip resist telling him the truth about what happened to his file?  What does this tell us about Pip's character?  

Chapter VII

1.  Why is Dickens so cruel in describing  Mr. Wopsle's great aunt as that "ridiculous old woman of limited means?"  How did you react to this"   What kind of an education is  Pip at this Educational institution?  Who is his primary instructor?

2.  How does Pip react to Joe's assertions that Joe's father  was "good in his hart" and Pip's sister, Joe's wife is "a fine figure of a woman?"  Do you think Joe believes what he tells Pip?  Does Pip?

3.  Who has the "great expectations" for Pip's future as he heads up to Miss Havisham's? Is he grateful for this opportunity?  Who arranged this play date for him?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[JoanP]

Who's ready for some more Dickens?  I remember thinking after viewing the BBC production of Great Expectations recently that I really had to read Dickens' own words.  There were so many liberties taken in what I thought was a quite enjoyable adaptation but some parts were not adequately explained. I suppose that's understandable.

It amazes me that Dickens work has never been out of print since first published in the 19th century.  When I read that  Dickens "saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes" I understood why these issues are still relevent to today's reader.  Do you think he'd be active in the political arena on these issues today?  

I got a kick out of the new anniversary cover of the Penguin paperback edition - in the heading.  What do you think of it?  This is the cover of the books we were giving away from WETA as part of Dickens' birthday celebration.

No matter which edition you choose to read, we really look forward to your participation in July - and August too.  There are only 400 pages or so - but we'll take a leisurely pace of approximately 50 pages a week.  We fortunate to have all five DLs returning from the Bleak House discussion for alternating parts of the discussion.  Post here if you think you might join us and we'll save you a good seat by the AC.

[PatH]

It's been 50 years since I read this book.  I can hardly wait to reread it with all of you and see what it seems like to me now.  We're going to find a lot of stuff I missed, and have fun along the way.

[marcie]

I'm too am glad to be reading this book with all of you. I read it in school about 50 years ago too. (I can't believe it!) So it will be practically like reading it for the first time. I have seen some film adaptations so I do have those in my head, but I look forward to reading Dickens own words. I got a lot out of reading Bleak House here with you.

[Babi]

One page into the book, and already I’m caught up again by Dickens way
with words.  The films simply cannot capture, in dialogue,  the richness and
depth of the text.

Do you think he'd be active in the political arena on these issues today?

 
 Oh, definitely, JOAN.  Wouldn't he be the perfect writer to bring these issues to the public
attention, especially that portion of the public what tends not to know what's going on
just out of eyesight?  Like me.  Politics have always been one of life's mysteries to me. 

[kidsal]

OK - read it a few months ago but sure will find much that I missed.  This book is so different in style.

[JoanP]

Glad to hear you'll be joining us, kidsal - as we learned in the Bleak House discussion, the more readers, the more we all get out of it.  
50 years ago, Marcie!  Doesn't that sound like such a long time ago? It really wasn't, was it?
Many of the same issues that motivated Dickens consume politicians today -  social justice - the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes. Please say that you think things have improved somewhat since the nineteenth century?

  As Babi pointed out, Dickens have plenty to say on these matters.  Would he be writing fiction, or would he be politically involved today?

I'm wondering how many of those reading downloaded versions on Kindles or Nooks find an introduction to Dickens' novel?  I'm reading the new Penguin edition - pictured in the heading - with an entertaining and informative introduction by Francine Prose...  This is a bit confusing to me, because on the page right before the novel begins I find:

A Note on the Text

"The present edition has been reprinted from Great Expectations by Charles Dickens {Penguin edition, 2003} with an Introduction by David Trotter and edited with notes by Charlotte Mitchell."

Can you check to see who wrote the introduction to the copy you are reading?  Maybe we can share a few of the nuggets from each while we wait for the curtain to go up.

[Babi]

   I've come to realize that the first time I read a Dickens book I'm caught
up in the story.  It isn't until I read one again that I notice all the great writing he subtly slips in around the action.  I find little gems that went right over my head the
first time through.

[bookad]

JoanP I'm willing to try another Dickens novel, count me in
for the July reading please
Deb

[JoanP]

Would be happy to set out another rocking chair on the porch for you, Deb!  Welcome!  Do you know which edition - and in which format you'll be reading the book?

[bookad]

JoanP  --at this point only have the gutenberg editon downloaded on my playbook, but I intend to go to the library and check out what they have--how different can the english editions be, or is it in the preface that might give different information about the author/time period etc!!--I seem to remember reading that Dicken's with Bleak House had revised a bit in a future edition that was published; or did I make that up!!
Deb

[kidsal]

I have Norton's Critical Edition

[marcie]

I hope to get the Norton edition from my library too.

[JudeS]

Hi Marcie
Since I was one of the lucky recipients of the Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition I will be joining you for the discussion.
I read the book as a young teen-ager on my own.  I'm sure I will learn a lot in this discussion.
Anyway, the silly cover illustrations make me smile every time I look at them. Good way to start this read -with a smile.

[JoanP]

I'm happy to hear that Norton will be joining us to fill in the blanks when we need him.  I'll be reading the Penguin anniversary edition along with you, Jude.  Have you read the interesting introduction by Francine Prose yet?  Don't worry, there are no spoilers here.  She made several interesting observations...did you know that Dickens intended Great Expectations to be a comedy?  Though there are some humorous scenes, it is not quite the light comedy that he intended at the outset.

Good to hear that you will be joining us Jude!    Welcome!    We can always count on you to find the humor in a situation even in the "silly cover."  Why do you think Penguin decided to use this cartoon cover for the 150th anniversary of the publication of Great Expectations?

[marcie]

Jude, that cover makes it look to me like a child's book. I found that I was not ready to read it at 12.

[bookad]

hi there

I was just able to get a copy of Great Expectations from our 'Orillia Public Library' and the binding reminds me of the old covers on the Reader's Digest 5books/vol groupings

pages are gilded on three sides with simulated gold foil for better wear and esthetic appeal. The cover design-a guenuine guality bonded -leather spine stamped in simulated gold lettering, and carefully reproduced four-colour antique marbleized paper--recreates the finest features of the age-old traditions of European And American antiquarian book design....

actually there was little choice and this book was the prettiest of the two I had to choose from...if I come across any editons with further info about the time period or conditions I will be happier, but at least I have a paper copy to follow the group with

Deb

[marcie]

Bookad, is that the Harvard Classics edition of the book?

[ANNIE]

Since I won my own copy of the book and don't remember reading it in school, I will give it a try in July.

[Frybabe]

I'll be here. My Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition is at the ready.

[bookad]

Marcie inside the cover it states 'Chatham River Press Classics'
am going to try and find something with information about the writing or
composition of this book; like one of the books I had when reading Bleak House

[marcie]

Thanks, Bookad. Yes, it's interesting to have an edition with an introduction and/or chapter notes.

[Babi]

I was greatly intrigued by JOANP's information that Dickens had intended Great Expectations
to be a comedy. Now that I know that, it is easy to recognize the scenes that could make
great comedy.  It adds an entirely new element to my re-reading of the book.

[JudeS]

This is what Francine Prose writes in the intro to the new Penguin Classics:

"For all that Dicken,s intended to write something funny and "Exceedingly droll" .......Great Expectations is among the saddest of all of Dicken's novels, and the one in which we may find confirmation of our most un-Victorian fears about the possibility and the limits of self-improvement".

The memory that lingers from this book when I was 12 or 13 was that it was VERY  scary. I thought that when I saw the original movie version as well as the latest PBS version. In fact after reading this book back then I never tried another Dickens even though we had all his books. (My parents were British). With little choice I had to read "A Tale of Two Cities" in H.S. I loved that book but it still didn't persuade me to return to Dickens. Now with you the help of Seniorlearn I am beginning to understand his greatness.

[Babi]

  Your comments and quote are helping me understand, JUDE.  This books is difficult to analyze
and discuss, perhaps precisely because it turned out to be a mixture of funny and scary.  It
jumps from the verge of slapstick to serious psychological effects on a growing boy. 
  Add to that the fact that I'm finding it hard to take notes, simply because I become engrossed
in the story and forget I'll need to discuss it. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Back Home and looking forward to July 1 - almost unpacked...

[Jonathan]

Back home again, too, after a wonderful time on Cape Cod. A wonderful place to explore, and we (the family at first and now just my wife and I) have kept on going back over the years. Henry Beston's 'outermost house'  was still there the first time we went, behind the dunes, abandoned and half full of sand. And then one summer it was gone. The little rabbits feeding on the clover beside the trail overlooking the vast Nauset marsh are more numerous than ever at twilight; and the Parnassas book store in Barnstable is as richly stocked as ever. And so is the Ocean of Books place in Wellfleet. But the best book buys are in the public libraries. A buck a bag! I walked out with two in Chatham. In Eastham I got the new Mark Twain for a couple of bucks (three!) And that brings up a curious meditation. I had come to the conclusion, after reading the many comments here and the previous Dickens discussion, that my greatest regret is not having read Dickens in my teens, in those impressionable years. I did however enjoy Mark Twain. How different my dreams might have been. To be an English gentleman, rather than rafting down the Mississipi.

What is it about politics you don't understand, Babi? Think of it as being the character of a country and many things fall into place. Some countries have more of it than others.

[Jonathan]

I found it up in the attic. I'm checking in with a dog-eared, non-classical, uncritical Penguin edition from long ago. I'll do the best I can with it.

[JoanP]

Geee, Jonathan, I think of you as an English gentleman, even though you didn't read Dickens as a boy!   Sound like a lovely vacation.  It's funny we're coming back from vacations - just in time for July - and Dickens!

A dog-eared Penguin, eh?  Is the cover anything like the anniversary Penguin edition in the heading?  I'll bet we have a variety of editions in here.  If anyone finds him/herself without a copy for Sunday, not to worry.  There's always the old reliable Gutenberg online version - find the link to that in the heading.

I'm hoping that we approach the reading of this novel a bit differentlly..though the plot line is quite engrossing, as Jude has discovered.  Let's try to find things we didn't know, that we are finding out for the first time - like where does the name "Pip" came from.  It's been a while since I read this - had totally forgotten.  Pretty important for us,  Dickens' scholars, to know that, don't you think?
Let's be aware of Dickens' writing too - beyond the plot line...  And let's be aware of the issues of the day that were motivating him as he wrote this story.  The young Jonathan would probably have overlooked all of these issues, as he anguished along with Pip over the lovely Estella.

Are we ready?  Sunday - or Monday- Volume I - first 7 chapters!  Important ones too.  I'll meet you here!

[Babi]

 I think we will definitely have to approach this one differently, JOAN.  For one thing, you have
the current story line, interwoven with the older Pip's reflections on it.  Some chapters are very
short, others much longer.  You have broad humor contrasting with shocking cruelty.  It can be
bewildering.

[Babi]

 JONATHAN, it is the political frame of mind that throws me. The self-interest, the
cut-throat duplicity, the hidden motives.  I learned early on that even the 'office
politics' went over my head. I was terribly naive, and to some extent I probably still
am. I may be cynical about believing what I hear, or read, now. But I still expect well
of people until they prove differently.  On the plus side, either my instincts or my
reading of body language is much, much better. I know now when a person is 'off kilter',
so to speak.

[Jonathan]

A gentleman, of course, I hope, Joan. In the company of ladies.

A fine response on the nature of politics, Babi.

Yes, Joan, I'm smitten by the lovely Estella. And, as a consequence, suffering Pip's anguish, and the ambition that grows out of it. Or is it idealism?

The cover of my GE features a detail of 'A Country Blacksmith' by Turner. Try this link:

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/turner-a-country-blacksmith-disputing-upon-the-price-of-iron-and-the-price-charged-to-the-n00478

What a contrast to the cover on the anniversary edition. Clearly meant to appeal to a new generation.  I suppose we will have to decide whether the book is a political tract or an English fairy tale.

[Babi]

  To me, the 'lovely Estella' is being formed into a female monster. I would like to
think she will turn out all right, but we all know what a powerful influence early
development is in a child.
  Thanks for that painting of the blacksmith, JONATHAN. Messy looking place,wasn't
it?  If Turner intended this to represent Joe Gargary's place, I wonder where he
came up with the butcher arguing about the price of shoeing his pony? Don't think
that's in the book. So real, tho', I would think Turner actually witnessed such a
scene.
 

[Frybabe]

I did a little research on Richard Sala who did the cover illustrations. He is indeed a well known graphic novel/comic artist.

You are probably right that it is an attempt to get youngsters interested in classics. Someone on one of the sites I looked at mentioned the Classic Comics series. Remember those? I think they did the whole book in comic form, not just the covers. Another comment I ran across that those looking for graphics/comics on the inside would be disappointed. Penguin also had comic covers done for The Canterbury Tales and, would you believe, The Communist Manifesto. There may be others by now.

[JudeS]

The painting by Turner is great and finely detailed.  However it was painted in 1806 and Dickens was writing his book some fifty years later. The Blacksmith's shop may have changed much in those years.
I don't think that Joe shoed horses as Blacksmiths did in earlier days.
Along the way, reading about the picture, I learned that the name Smith came from the word 'smite' and a shoer of horses was called a 'farrier'.
You may know this but it was interesting and new for me.

In remembering "Classic Comics" from my childhood (Thanks Frybabe for the memory) i read all of them. They were really good reductions of the classics and familiarized me with all the names which I came upon them in later life. I don't know if the new covers of Penguin Classics will do the same for the modern generation.

[JoanP]

"I don't think that Joe shoed horses as Blacksmiths did in earlier days."

I'm really looking forward to read what Joe Gargery and his father before him did in the smithy shop, Jude - This is a very small village - the horse was the way folks got around - and they needed shoes as much as they ever did.  Pip is hoping to become Joe's apprentice.  Can you tell us why you think there isn't much of a future for Pip in the trade?  Maybe this is an important point.

I can't wait to begin tomorrow. I agree with Babi is saying - in this novel  "you have
the current story line, interwoven with the older Pip's reflections on it.  You have broad humor contrasting with shocking cruelty."  We all pretty much know the plot, or at least it's easy to follow - as in the Classics Illustrated...but I hope we can delve a little deeper - into the motivations of the grown-ups who seem to be manipulating Pip.  They seem to have their own "great expectations" for his future and they don't always have Pip's best interests in mind.  We have to decide whether he was really better off leaving the forge behind.  Who knows, we might decide he was!

Till tomorrow!

[Frybabe]

What a beginning! The last TV version we saw did not do it justice. Dickens words brought out the scene more vividly than the production, IMO. I could see the convict shivering and coated with slime and mud, and his limp. I could see Pip being tilted back slowly for emphasis when the convict spoke. And the description of the graves made a bigger impression on my mind that the TV scene did.

My first thoughts about Pip were that he is impressionable and imaginative. He is trying to get some idea of who he is and who is family were by imagining what his parents looked like from the design of the lettering on the gravestones. His meeting up with the convict must have left a deep impression on him, being so young and not having any experience with such people.

[Babi]

  I would really find it helpful to know how old Pip is.  I do know children were considered adult
at a much earlier age than we do, but one's outlook, understanding and judgment depend so
much on one's age.... and experience.
  You are so right, FRYBABE.  The films simply cannot capture  the richness and depth of the text.
They do have the advantage of allowing us to actually see the background scenes of the story,
so much can be added by the quality of the photography.  And good actors can add so much
to our understanding of what's happening.  I learned that when I first saw a good production of
Shakespeare.  "Oh, that's what it meant!"

[Frybabe]

Shakespeare is definitely a special case as far as actually seeing a production over just reading it. It is probably because of the older English styles of language he used, but I also find seeing it most helpful to understanding the play.

I did a little checking. I saw Pip's age listed in various sites at anywhere from 7 to 12. According to the various sources, the only time an age is mentioned is when he turned 21.

[Jonathan]

Seven to twelve would seem to be the right range, Frybabe. With Pip being closer to seven than to twelve, since Joe is carrying Pip most of the time they spend with the soldiers hunting down the escaped convict.

Another classic Dickens opener, complex mood and atmosphere, with drollery combined with terror. This author plays with his readers' feelings. The classic edition has an introduction that suggests that GE is the saddest book. My edition has an introduction that claims GE is the happiest of Dickens's books!

What a great set of questions. I'm impressed by the extensive narrative ground Dickens covers in these early chapters. By and large it seems to be all about relationships that Pip develops with those around him. I have Pip's feelings of guilt gradually rubbing off on the convict. These two seem suited to each other. Or seem complementary to each other.

Talk of injustices and inequalities as favorite themes in Dickens. I believe he is more alive to the inhumanities around him. Among the poor and lowly. And that's the difference between him and Shakespeare. Shakespeare dramatized the lives of kings and queens, church prelates and assorted princes of this world. The common man gets top billing with Dickens. It seems to me.