GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX VOLUME 2 July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV) July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII) August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)  VOLUME 3 August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI) August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII) August 26-31 ~ Chapters XV-XX (LIV-LIX)

Chapter XV (LIV)

1. Do you think it was inconsistent for Magwitch to have risked his freedom to find Pip?  Does he seem at all concerned that he might never make it out of London to freedom?

2. The Custom House officers allowed Pip to change Magwitch's clothes, but needed to take all of his possessions. What was the significance of this?  Why should  this sadden Pip?

Chapter XVI (LV)

1.  Mr. Jaggers, though angry with Pip for letting Magwitch's property slip through his fingers, will try to save some his holdings abroad.    Is there a difference between his "portable property" in that purse - and his land holdings abroad?  Is everything forfeited to the crown?

2.  Mr. Wemmick, though dismayed with Pip for not accepting portable property as he had advised, remains his friend, and invites him, as his best man on that 'morning walk.'  Why do you think Dickens included this humorous wedding sketch in such detail?

Chapter XVII (LVI)

1.  Who does Pip consider more of a father figure - Joe or Magwitch?  

2. What made the Jury decide  Magwitch deserved the death sentence?  What is Pip's reaction to this decision?

Chapter XVIII  (LVII)

1.  How did Joe hear of Pip's illness?   What "onnecessary" details is Joe keeping from Pip as he recovers?

2. When Pip heard that Joe had paid his creitors, he decided to go to work at the forge and marry Biddy until he repaid him.  What did you think of his plan?  Would this have been an appropriate happy ending for the story?

Chapter XIX  (LVIII)

1. Was Pumblechook right, after all?  Had Pip really squandered all of his opportunities with his own great expectations?

2.  The forge is silent when Pip arrives, locked for the day.    Did you see that marriage coming?  

Chapter XX  (LIX)

1.  Did Dickens leave us with the promise of a happily-ever-after ending for Pip and Estella  or not?  Do you think this book needed or deserved a happy ending?

2. Do these three versions of the final line of the published edition,  indicate a conflict in Dickens' mind concerning the ending?
~ ‘I saw no shadow of another parting from her’ ~ the standard reading in editions since 1862, presumably authorised by Dickens,
~  but the first editions read ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her’,
~  while the manuscript in Dickens' hand,  reads ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her, but one.’  

3. Did the edition you are reading include Dickens' original ending, which was unpublished during his lifetime?    Why do you think Dickens changed this ending before final publication?    

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;  Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856;    Map of London 1851; ORIGINAL ENDING, unpublished during Dickens' lifetime

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[Jonathan]

'Have you quite forgotten her?'

'My dear Biddy...that poor dream, as I once used to call it, has all gone by...all gone by.'

Despite its ambiguities, Chapter 59 is a beautifully written epilogue to this strange tale. The strange variations in the endings seem suitable in a way, in this land of mists and shadows. But a future with Estella? Impossible. I thought that Pip, contemplating a marriage proposal to Biddy, was done with his infatuation with Estella. But the ambience at Satis House brings it all back.

'The silvery mist was touched with the first rays of the moonlight, and the same rays touched the tears that dropped from her eyes....The freshness of her beauty was indeed gone, but its indescribable majesty and its indescribable charm remained.'

I would like to have chosen a different ending many times along the way. I think Jaggers could have done much more for Magwitch. Compeyson died an accidental death. The reader, of course knows there was murder in Magwitch's heart, but it would be difficult to prove it. Jaggers should have had no problem with getting a fairer sentence for a rehabilitated transport. The inujustice of the death penalty was becoming obvious.

I would have liked to see Magwitch and Pip making it to Hamburg, with Magwitch then enjoying the loving care that Clara 's Dad, and Wemmick's Dad received in their last years. Could Estella have been persuaded to join them? I find it strange that she never got to hear about her Dad. Or her Mom.

The most bizarre detail in the book? The search for Compeyson's body, for the sake of his socks! The part that was missing from the river junky's warddrobe.

[Babi]

  Ah, thanks, FRYBABE. Estella remarried with a child?  I don't think so. Estella's words in
the newer 'ending' sound to me like those of a woman shielding herself from loss of dignity
or fear of being seen as needy. I have every confidence Pip will be able to reassure her of
his love for her and his esteem.

 I was a bit surprised on learning of the marriage of Biddy and Joe, primarily because of
the age difference. Still, Biddy is an exceptionally wise and mature young woman, and she
would recognize Joe's sweet nature and fine character. I think they will be very well suited
and very happy together.  And yes, JOANP, I did think it presumptuous...and egocentric...in
Pip to assume Biddy would be his for the asking.

[Frybabe]

Oops! I goofed. It wasn't Estella with the child, but Pip. If I remember correctly, little Pip is the child of Joe and Biddy. At any rate, it doesn't change my opinion on which ending I like better.

[JudeS]

Hi
I just popped up out of the Rabbithole .We had a huge party for my husband's 80th birthday
and I didn't imagine how much work it would be. People came from near and far. Our house has just emptied of the last visiting guest that stayed with us.I can get back to "normal".

Although I couldn't post I was thinking of Great Expectations and, especially for the young adults that were here, and the "Great Expectations" that were part of each of them growing up and developing.. About how fate intervened in so many unexpected ways to bring each of them to the point where they are now.
 I wondered also  about Dickens writing a novel about our times with all the electronics involved. The complexity of our world and where we are heading.

I was interested about your opinions  on reading Dostoyevsky as compared to Dickens. I, unlike those who felt that he was hard to read, found him in my teens and early twenties to be a most wonderful writer. The Best!
I swallowed his books and have read them all. Perhaps having to read Dickens in school made me wary of him.Only now, after our reading of Bleak House and GE have I fallen for Dickens and have found that he can be profound.

The final point was in reaction to Pip's belief that Biddy would marry him.  As we have seen Pip is prone to dreams and expectations that are far from real. they are what he wants reality to be, not what is actually real.
This incident was needed to finally prove to Pip that his dreams are not real.-They exist in his head. They are bubbles that reality bursts.


 

[JudeS]

Babi
This is just to suggest to you that Anne Perry's youth was horrible.  Almost a Dicken's tale.
At the age of 15 she and a friend murdered, yes murdered, the friends Mother. Anne Perry (a pseudonym) spent the next four years in jail.
If you wish to explore this event, rent the movie "Heavenly Creatures" which is a portrayal of this period in the writer's own life. Kate Winslett stars.

[JoanP]

Hahahaha, Fry - you had me back paging through the novel - rereading to see how I missed Estella's child!

There were wedding bells in the air in the last chapters, weren't there?  Fulfilling the expectations of most young people  - love, marriage - and children.  Clara and Herbert, Biddy and Pip - Mr. Wemmich and his Miss Skiffins.  Why do you think Dickens treated us to the detailed account of the Wemmick's  "completed" wedding ceremony?  It was humorous, I really did enjoy it ...was it there for comic relief - or can you think of another reason for it?

It seems that everyone is hoping that Pip will marry too - and have children of his own.  But Pip is silent on the subject.  Content to live on with Herbert and Clara.

Jude, you make an interesting point -

"As we have seen Pip is prone to dreams and expectations that are far from real. they are what he wants reality to be, not what is actually real."

Do you think that Pip has changed that much?  Has his life experience caused him to change?     Estella offers no hope for for a future  together.  But she does hope they can part as friends.  But what of Pip?  Does he still seem to have those old expectations?  Is that the shadow Dickens refers to?

[Babi]

 Yes, JUDE, I am aware of Perry's history. It was a terrible thing, but I think it more fair
to judge her life in its entirety, rather than condemn her forever for the crime in her teens.
A sentence of four years for murder suggests to me that there was more to the story than I
know, and we cannot know what has gone on in her mind, heart and soul since then. The best
clue I have to that, is in the prevailing theme of all the books she as writen since. I
find William Monk's history particularly significant.

 Back to Pip.  I think we all have to learn the difference between dreams and reality as we grow up. Our expectations of life can be so rosy when we are young, but real life simply isn't that easy.
Biddy was kind and understanding with the very difficult young Pip, and I can see why he
might assume she would marry him. He still has some growing up to do.

[JudeS]

JoanP
You ask if Pip has changed that much?
This is a complex question since he has changed a great deal from the Pip who left for London.
However he has much to learn yet.
This is not peculiar to Pip alone but to most people. We are not finished products at age 30. If we are, than it is a sad human being who stops maturing at 30.
Most people, but not all, keep developing all their lives. Just look at Seniorlearn. Here we are discussing, thinking, learning and changing.

Personally, I feel that the original ending is better than the changed one. However, in both, Dicken's makes sure to tell us the lesson of the book:(re; Estella)
"...in her face, and in her voice, and in her touch, she gave me the assurance that suffering had been stronger than Miss Havisham's teaching, and had given her a heart to understand what ny heart used to be."

[JoanP]

Aha!  Jude, that's exactly what I was feeling!  Pip couldn't have changed that much by age 30, could he?  If we had a different picture of him  - happily married and settled, with his own little family, it would be one thing - we could readily accept that he had gotten over his unreasonable "expectations" regarding a future with Estella....
 I've been rereading the two endings and all of your posts regarding the two endings.  I can see where many would prefer a happier ending where there is some hope...rather than  leave poor Pip forever caught up in an impossible dream.

I suppose that this was the reason Dickens went against his original conclusion and edited what he wrote to leave the possibility that somehow Estella would soften further and they would find happiness together..  

I read that it  was Wilkie Collins, a close friend and author of The Woman in White, who objected to the not-happy ending Dickens first wrote for Great Expectations.  
Here are some objections to Dickens' revised ending -

"The second ending has generally been published from Dickens's time to our own, so that it is the one which most readers know. Critics have been arguing the merits of both endings since the novel's publication. Dickens's friend and biographer, John Forster, felt the original ending was "more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale." The writers George Gissing, George Bernard Shaw, George Orwell, William Dean Howells, Edmund Wilson and Angus Wilson agreed with Forster's preference. In modern criticism, the stronger arguments tend to support the second ending."

George Bernard Shaw: The novel "is too serious a book to be a trivially happy one. Its beginning is unhappy; its middle is unhappy; and the conventional happy ending is an outrage on it."

The second ending is an artistically indefensible and morally cheap about-face; its purpose is to please a popular audience which expects a conventional happy ending (i.e., marriage)."

Some of you have already expressed your preference for the original or for the revised.

I find myself agreeing with what Jonathan wrote on the subject -

"Despite its ambiguities, Chapter 59 is a beautifully written epilogue to this strange tale. The strange variations in the endings seem suitable in a way, in this land of mists and shadows."

[Babi]

 I cannot think of a thing to add to that last quote from JONATHAN.   It sounds like the perfect
ending. 

[Frybabe]

I didn't find the second ending particularly happy. I thought it was sadish, poignant, and hopeful; kind of a final resolution to the past and a settling into reality and the future.

Pip "wrote" this memoir of his past, but when? Just after the ending point of the narrative or when he was old? I don't remember it saying, but the ending does not include marrying and living happily ever after with Estella (or anyone else that I can tell). Estella wants to remain friends but at a distance. So I can imagine that Pip remains devoted to Estella, keeps in touch, and remains a life long bachelor.

The original ending seemed kind of abrupt to me. I still can't see Estella ever marrying again now that both her husband and Ms. Havisham are dead. She has the means to stay independent on her own. Ms. Havisham's influence on her behavior may fade over time, but it will be a long time, if ever, before she trusts herself or anyone else. She may continue to toy with men's hearts for some time to come, but not with the vengeance and passion that Ms. Havisham would have required. She may slowly forgive herself for being a pawn of Ms. H.'s plan and learn to become herself. Twelve years, was it since she saw Pip at the end? She still isn't there yet.

Has anyone ever attempted to do a "what came after" book like some people do these days, picking up from where the original author left off.

[bookad]

Thats a great thought Frybabe; I really enjoy reading past a conclusion in a book, and life doesn't necessarily stop with the books ending; interesting to think of where life goes after the conclusion, potentially it could do a 180 and change drastically in the direction it was heading....so many paths leading to further branches and conclusions

Deb

[JudeS]

This is the strangest thing to happen. Believe it or not!
I was cleaning out a shelf I hadn't touched in ten years. I came across a book called "The Artistic World of Charle's Dickens Christmas Books" by Tatiana A Boborykin. 
This is a book written in Russian, translated into English which was given to everyone in a group of travelers to Russia in 1999. I was among them. I never gave the book a second glance. Today I browsed through it and the author discusses Dickens influence on Dostoyevsky and Freud.
She also discusses how Dickens began the whole genre of realistic fiction. She writes about the fact that Dickens could do this because he was the first author who understood the soul of the child.
I hope we return to Dickens again so I can utilize the material in this book for all to enjoy.

[JoanP]

 "Dickens influence on Dostoyevsky and Freud.
She also discusses how Dickens began the whole genre of realistic fiction. She writes about the fact that Dickens could do this because he was the first author who understood the soul of the child."

What a find, Jude!   Isn't that amazing?  We'd been talking about Dostoyevsky and Freud and Dickens since the beginning!
Put it in a good place - a prominent spot on your book shelf!  Surely we will visit Dickens again!

[JoanP]

To me that's the mark of a really good author, Deb - one who can create  characters so real that their lives continue on, long after we have closed the book.  I agree with you, Fry, when Dickens revised the ending for publication, he really didn't promise a happy ending, did he?  But he did insert a ray of HOPE which was missing in the original ending.  I think that's what his readers needed...and it is that hope that keeps the story going in our imaginations.

Look at this comment  I found  on Dickens' working notes on the novel...

"There are a few critics who have taken a third position; the novel should stop before Estella's final appearance. They note that Dickens, in his working notes on the novel, follows Pip's later career but does not refer to Estella. Miss Havisham referred to Estella's marriage many chapters earlier, so that there is no need to bring her up again; her fate is known."

Fry wonders about a "what comes after" book...I'm not sure anyone has attempted to write a follow-up on anything Dickens wrote.  To be honest, I think we would find it disappointing.  But your own imagination might produce some interesting scenarios.  What do you think the future might have held for Pip and Estella?

[Frybabe]

I went hunting for the book JudeS mentioned. There are several used bookstores listed on ABE that list it, but apparently it hasn't been published in the US.

Oh, here is something interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-19109645 I wonder if BBC will make a special out of this.

[JoanK]

I hope so. It could be fascinating, especially if they compare what is here now to what Dickens saw.

[JoanP]

I've a son who lives and works in London, JoanK.  He's having a good time following Dickens' characters through the streets and visiting the old buildings that are still there since Dickens' times.  London is celebrating this anniversary year with many tours of the city based on his life and his novels.  
A quick search - -  a video of Dickens' London - "It's remarkable how much is intact."

[JoanP]

And look at this link, Fry: London Film Festival will close with the European premiere of new Charles Dickens adaptation Great Expectations

Is this the same production aired on PBS not so long ago - with Helena Bonham Carter?  I'm going to try to find this and watch again closely.  Read what this article says about the two endings...

"Nicholls revealed last year that he had written a new ending for his "thriller" version of the film.

"Dickens came up with two endings - one which is incredibly bleak and one which is unrealistically romantic and sentimental," he said last November.

"Neither are quite satisfactory and we've come up with an ending that is somewhere in between."

I'm going to try to watch a number of different movie adaptations of this book to see how the endings were handled...

Great Expectations will be released in UK cinemas on 30 November"

[Jonathan]

Estella's story is just begging to be told. Her life had just as much drama in it as Pip's, don't you think? She is so much more than the figment in Pip's imagination. Thanks for stating her case, Frybabe. But she did remarry, didn't she, after Drummle was kicked to death by his horse? I thought I read about a doctor from Shropshire., as the second husband.

I'm not happy with the revised ending. I can't see how Dickens allowed himself to be talked into it. I agree with Shaw's opinion. The 'happy' ending is an outrage. Estella's fate is heartbreaking. Happiness for her would be wonderful. But if we are going to reopen the past, I would also like to hear about a different ending re the Magwitch millions. Somebody should enjoy them. Estella might have gone after them, if she had known about them. Or would she have turned out to be too much a lady to accept them?

I can't bring myself to close this book. Let's go on to another. It has been a lot of fun.

[PatH]

It's a bit late in the day to put in a bunch of thoughts that didn't make it before, especially since others have said much of it, but here goes.  I thought the interlude of the attempted escape down the river was wonderfully effective.  The detailed, colorful description of all the river traffic, everything seeming normal, then gradually little doubts creeping in, more and more suspicious things, finally turning into a most desperate chase.  Throughout, Magwitch is passive and fatalistic; he doesn't really expect to succeed.  Perhaps he doesn't even want to succeed.  He's done the thing he devoted his life in Australia to, it's all finished.  What now?  Anticlimax and letdown?

I'm in the camp that prefers Dickens' original ending.  Even though it feels a bit unfinished, it's more realistic.  And I'm also with Jonathan in wanting to see Estella's story treated more fully.  

[bookad]

Jonathan...I,m
with you, very sorry to be finishing with Dickens books....In fact have picked up a copy of "The Old Curiosity Shop" to read...
......before reading Bleak House and Great Expectations and learning about this time period in England.....wouldn't have dreamed reading anything by Dickens

Deb

[JudeS]

JoanP
Thanks for that little video on The London where Dickens lived and worked.
England is really celebrating the 200th anniversary.
How wonderful to be remembered and revered so long after you've gone.

A last remark......
There could never be a book about Estella's childhood and life.  It would be so full of emptiness and misery that no one would want to read it.
Although Pip's expectations were never realized, the promise. unfulfiiled as it was, kept us all reading, hoping and imagining.
He was surrounded by fascinating people, both good and bad. Poor Estella had Miss Havisham, a depressed wreck who wished for her daughter to become a destroyer of men.
Such a book  wwould not be for me.

[Babi]

  The 'happy ending' was a concession to popular opinion, granted. But as Nicholls
said in that quote in JOANP's post, the original ending was very bleak. I'll be
interested to see what his 'in-beween' ending will be.

 I agree with Jude that a book about Estella's childhood would be pretty much a one-note
affair, and that a depressing one.  However, considering Estella's remarkable intelligence,
strength, and painfully won insights...a follow-up book of her future life could be very good.

[JoanK]

I've certainly enjoyed this discussion: all of the leaders have done their usual wonderful job. The bad thing about books is that they end-- the good thing, that they're still there to be enjoyed again.

[Frybabe]

Thanks, all for a wonderful discussion. A special thanks to our DL's, Babi, JoanK, JoanP, Marcie, and PatH.

Bleak House and Pickwick Papers are waiting in my Kindle library to read.

[PatH]

It was a wonderful discussion.  Everyone did such a good and interesting job, and we really got all the meat out of the book.  Thank you, everyone.

[marcie]

Thank you everyone. As usual, I've learned a lot from each of you. I hope that we'll be discussing Pickwick Papers together in the near future.

[JoanP]

This was a great, rewarding discussion, one of the best in memory.  Not sure if this was due to the author or the participants!  Probably a combination of both!  Hope you will join us again in the near future!  Thank you one and all!

[Babi]

  It's been a wonderful group, as usual.  I've enjoyed every minute of it.  Let's get together again for 'The Tempest', shall
we?     

[JudeS]

Oh yes!
Pickwick Papers it is!
I hope to see you all there after the Storm..uh, Tempest is over.
Thank you all for a lively discussion and another wonderful Seniorlearn moment.
Oh dear, it was longer than a moment, right?

[bookad]

just wanted to thank everyone for a wonderfully entertaining read made so by all the thoughts, aside interests, articles mentioned and especially history of the times
--would be very interested in reading another Dicken's novel sometime with the group

Deb

[JoanP]

Thanks again, everyone.  We hope to see you all in the discussion of Shakespeare's The Tempest and we won't forget your interest in Dickens'  Pickwick Papers .

This discussion will now be Archived for future reference.