GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and AUGUST

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX

Chapter VIII

1. How is Pip treated by "Uncle Pumblechook"?
 
2. What imagery about Satis House struck you?

3. What are Pip's first impressions of Estella? of Miss Havisham?

4. Near the end of Pip's visit, what are Pip's thoughts about Joe after Estella leaves him in the courtyard when she goes for food?


Chapter IX

1. Why does Pip elaborate his account of his visit to Satis House?

2. Why do Pumblechook and Mrs. Joe believe this far-fetched account?

3. How does the passage at the end of the chapter, addressed to the reader, connect to the imagery of Satis House?


Chapter X

1. How does the reader know where the bank notes came from?

2. What does the incident with the bank notes indicate about Joe?


Chapter XI

1. What is Miss Havisham's relationship with her relatives?

2. How would you describe her relatives?

3. What strange object does Pip see on the table?


Chapter XII

1. What kind of punishment does Pip expect for striking the young gentleman?

2. How does Miss Havisham respond to Pip later?


Chapter XIII

1. Why does Pip feel uncomfortable when he and Joe visit Satis House?

2. Who takes the money?

3. What are Pip's feeling about being a blacksmith?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[PatH]

'He stopped short of offering practical solutions to problems, and his work only reflects a selected range of issues and institutions.  He never joined any of the reforming societies, and seemed more comfortable dealing with particular cases and large principles, rather than legislation and administration." 

Jonathan, I was about to say something similar.  Dickens was good at spotting problems and describing them, but doesn't seem to think in terms of the mechanics of practical solutions--just if men were better and behaved more kindly, things would be better.  True, but not useful.

[Babi]

 I was given castor oil as a child. It was an infrequent thing, thankfully, and was
considered to be proper for particular problems. Nasty stuff; hated it.

 No question about that, JONATHAN. Pip was content with his prospects in life until he
got a glimpse of how the gentry lived. Not to mention being totally infatuated with the contemptuous Estella.

 

I'm wondering why they thought that Pip would bring benefits to the family by playing with the little girl?

  I think being 'brought to the notice' of the wealthy and powerful was generally considered a major step up for the 'lower classes', JOAN. And of course Uncle Pumblechook made the most of it by portraying himself as in the confidence of the mysterious Miss Havisham.
  I'm trying to think of an appropriate term for Pumblechook.     I'd bet you can
help me with that Jonathan.  Or Jude.   'Fraud' doesn't quite seem to cover it.

[Jonathan]

I get a somewhat favorable impression of shopkeeper Pumblechook. Salt of the earth type, almost. He's certainly instrumental now in helping Pip to a chance at improving himself. Sees to it that Pip will make a good impression. Imparts a little knowledge with his little arithmetic exercises. Perhaps he sees Pip as Miss Havisham's bookkeeper, eventually.

Not exactly a booming economy in the commercial area is it, with all the shopkeepers with nothing to do but watch each other? Except the watchmaker. Wait until he hears about Miss Havisham's clocks, all stopped at 8:40.

And so Pip is sent off with the solemn advice from Uncle Pumblechook:

'Boy, be for ever grateful to all friends, but especially unto them which brougt you up by hand.'

Not likely, judgeing by what we've heard from Pip about his harsh upbringing. The soap suds and all.

[JoanP]

How about "opportunist" Babi?  I keep reminding myself that Uncle Pumblechook is Joe Gargery's uncle.  Doesn't he seem more like the Mrs. Joe's kin in his wishes for advancement.  Joe doesn't appear unhappy with his life, with his trade, whereas Mrs. G. never misses an opportunity to complain.

I've come across an interesting site containing the illustrations for each chapter which will appear in the heading for the rest of the discussion.  It is something called Discovering Dickens - and along with the illustrations, there are some notes relevant to each chapter, which I'll also share with you.  What's interesting is that this comprehensive site repeatedly states that Pip is 7 years old when the story begins.  To me it makes a difference to think of him as a 7 year old rather than an adolescent - especially when we move into the next chapters when Pip goes up to the big house and meets the lovely Estella.    Let's watch for an indication of her age in the next chapters.

Jonathan, I have two notes here that might be of interest to you - the first concerns Uncle P, whom you describe as the "salt of the earth" - though Babi may not agree with you.  He did not arrive for Christmas dinner empty-handed, you might remember he brought not one, but two bottles of wine for the assembled.  And now he has arranged for Pip's introduction into the big house on the hill.  He doesn't forget his relatives, does he?  I'm not sure how he arranged the play date, but obviously he did.

I'll go get the notes on Uncle P... and another note regarding what was meant at the time by being "brought up by hand."  Apparently it was even more abusive than we had concluded...and Pip is lucky to be alive today.

[JoanP]

By hand, brought up: "Infants, in the absence of the mother, were either sent out to be fed by a wet-nurse (another lactating woman), or were spoon- or bottle-fed. Mrs. Joe's claim to neighborhood fame -- that she raised Pip "by hand" -- refers to the latter method. However, not only is the term used ironically (given Mrs. Joe's tendency to physically mistreat Pip), but its literal meaning also suggests abuse. Susan Thurin, in a recent Victorian Newsletter article, summarizes the history and application of the term "by hand" as follows:
She notes that artificial infant foods in the 19th century were un-nutritious, often being nothing better than pap (a thin mixture, for example flour and water) or gruel. Though cow's milk was often used as a substitute for breast-milk, "Cows were kept in filth, retailers skimmed and watered milk, and in the summer, bacteria spoiled it within twelve hours.
 The Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, which legislated sanitary conditions for the sale of milk, was not passed until 1878" (Thurin 29) -- over 70 years after Pip was born. In the 18th century, sixty-six percent of infants brought up "by hand" died, and methods had not greatly improved by the 19th century (Thurin 29). Pip, in other words, is lucky to be alive. Indeed, he and his sister have five siblings in the graveyard (Ch.1); and though these children may or may not have been raised by hand, they are an indication that the infant mortality rate in 19th century England was generally very high. Though spoon-feeding was especially likely to kill a baby, about 25% of all children born did not survive beyond the age of five (Mulhall 178).

[JoanP]

 "The fact that "Uncle Pumblechook ... drove his own chaise-cart" (Ch. 4) indicates a certain level of prosperity not achieved by Pip's family at the forge. Driving his own cart would indicate that he had means sufficient to keep, or regular access to, a horse. Though the kind of cart denoted by "chaise-cart" varied, it usually referred to a light carriage with two or four wheels."

We already noted this - it seems that Uncle P is a tenant on Miss Havisham's land...not sure how this came about.  We also know that Joe Gargery's father was also a blacksmith, and that Pip is expected to become his apprentice at the forge as well.  His prospects for moving up in the world are not good.


Though they live a decent life on the forge, not hungry or needy, Mrs. Joe doesn't miss any opportunity to complain about her life and Joe's occupation, does she?  I can't imagine what her life without Pip would be like - maybe just the same?

I found this note on blacksmiths' earnings at this time:
"Blacksmith's wife, perhaps if I warn't: Pip's sister, Mrs. Joe Gargery, traces her self-proclaimed status as "a slave with her apron never off" (Ch. 4) to her husband's profession.
Blacksmiths in the 19th century were working-class people, and though Joe is a highly skilled artisan, his wages would be modest.  During the period of the novel (1812-1840), Joe Gargery would have made somewhere between £52 and £63 a year. (During the 19th century, an English pound was roughly equal to five American dollars [Philp 128]. Thus, translated into American currency, Joe would have made between about $260 and $315 a year). Industrious and temperate, Joe may have been slightly better circumstanced than many blacksmiths. However, the Gargerys could not be considered prosperous, though living comfortably according to their station"

[JoanP]

Tomorrow we are scheduled to move from the forge into the big house on the hill.  I'd like to concentrate a bit more on Joe Gargery and his background today - sensing that this dear fellow will no longer be the center of  Pip's world, once Pip is exposed to the bigger world in the coming chapters...

Pip is trying to learn as much as he can from Biddy, sensing that this is important.  Did you see Joe pretending that he was reading with Pip - with the book upside down?  Pip notices. He asks Joe if he'd been to school and Joe described his own childhood experience to Pip protesting all the while that his father was "good in his hart."

 Do you really think Joe believes what he tells Pip?  And does Pip believe him?  He's a perceptive boy.  Is he beginning to see chinks in his protector's armor?  

[JudeS]

Babi
Mr. Pumblechook _An officous person i.e.(volunteers his services when they are neither asked for or needed).. He makes himself out to be better than he is.
Pip despises him  and his constant math questions.
However no matter how awful he is personally, Dicken's uses him to move the action forward. Mr. P. brings Pip to Miss
Havisham.  Therein lies a large part of the whole story.
This person ,Mr. P, is a shining example of how Dickens utilizes good and bad characters to weave a complex and amazing plot. The plot exists, because Dickens sees how the good and bad are the warp and woof of life.

Joan
You asked me to look for the humor. Well Pip's lies are humorous of course. Every great author that writes about little boys uses this ploy. From Mark Twain to Maurice Sendak the imaginative lies told by the young boys to get out of trouble are humorous.
Sometimes Dicken's remarks about the situation are wryly humorous :
"My sister, having so much to do, was going to Church vicariously; that is to say Joe and I were going."
"Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and some people do the same with their religion."
In fact the whole beginning of Chapt. four is wryly humorous. For a moment it takes us away from the tension created by the
frightening scenes with the prisoner on the marsh.
Again, Genius.

[Frybabe]

I was most interested in Joe's description of his childhood. Consider that many children brought up in abusive homes either become abusive themselves or attach themselves to an abuser. The latter seems to be the case with Joe. His wife is verbally abusive and is not a stranger to using a pot or pan on Joe and a "tickler" rather too often on Pip. I am not sure what a tickler is, but could it be tickling as a form of punishment or a switch with frayed ends?

[Babi]

 Sorry, JONATHAN, but I can't see Pumblechook as 'salt of the earth'.  To me, he is
using Pip as a possible entry point for himself. He was quite disappointed when he was sent away on delivering Pip, instead of being invited in.
  "Opportunist" is appropriate, JOANP,..and polite. I had the same confusion about which side of the family he was related to.  I finally decided he became Mrs. Joe's great chum and supporter simply because they are so alike in their views. He is certainly nothing like Joe.

  Good critique on Pumblechook, JUDE. I can only nod in agreement.

  Great information on 'brought up by hand', JOAN. I had no idea there was so much
ignorance as to an infant's needs. I can only assume it was the very poor who fed water and flour 'pap', because that was all they had. I was once told that during the depression, when money was very tight, the last few pennies would be spent on tea for mother, in the belief that would help her produce milk for me. People do what they can.

 FRYBABE, I was wondering about that 'tickler', too.  The only definition I could find
that might fit was "Tickler(noun)a prong used by coopers to extract bungs from casks."  Can you imagine having something like that poked in your direction?




 

[PatH]

In Chapter II, about a page in, Pip's narrative: "Tickler was a wax-ended piece of cane, worn smooth by collision with my tickled frame."

A footnote says "Schoolmasters placed wax on the end of the cane to keep it from splitting."

[Jonathan]

Looking for humor in Great Expectations. Why don't we start with the tickler? I thought it a great euphemism for the rod, that essential part of a boys education. I was told by my own mother, occasionally, go, find me a switch. I went looking. My heart goes out to all mothers trying to make civilized beings out of their off-springs. Pip, it seems to me, comes close to being a little kvetcher. But then he is the brother of his tormentor. Both are, or become unhappy with their lot in life. Good question: at what point does Pip become unhappy with his prospects in life?

I may change my opinion about Uncle Pumblechook. Certainly he is trying to help himself by helping others. He is a tenant of Miss Havishams's, but has never met her face to face. She lives such a secluded life. Has for years. Now she is looking for a playmate. Will Pip get her clocks moving again?

Dickens was known to refer to his disputatious readers. LOL

[marcie]

Pat, "collision with the tickled frame ... waxed to keep the cane end from splitting" ... those are terrible images of the tickler.

On that note we'll move into the next set of chapters this week (VIII through XIII). We can still continue to talk about anything in the first part of the book. In Chapter VIII Pip has gone with Pumblechook to stay overnight at his house, to be ready to visit Miss Hamisham's in the morning.  How is Pip treated by Pumblechook?

[JoanP]

Well, then, Jude, I conclude the answer to the question concerning Freud's sense of humor would have to be that he must have had one, since we know he was an admirer of Dickens.  He'd appreciate the same examples you have cited, with an understanding that Dickens was using humor to underscore abuse.  That "Tickler" must have been used to more than "tickle" the naughty child -  if  "worn smooth by collision with his tickled frame."

I remembered that Uncle Pumble dropped Pip off at the Havisham mansion with little preparation.  Pip is told only that he is going to play with someone within - and this bothers Pip, perhaps because he doesn't know how to play with other children.  I reread that section - laughed at the way Pumble, feeling so self-important, when he asks if Miss Havisham wished to see him, was snubbed by Estella at the door.  - But I laughed all the more at his preposterous admonition to Pip as he departed-

"Let your behaviour here be a credit unto them which brought you up by hand."  

All the more amusing when we realize that Dickens' readers must have understood the abusive meaning of the term...certainly nothing to brag about, or reflect credit on those who brought up the lad in this way...

[JoanK]

I'm guessing that corporal punishment was accepted for children, and Dickens' readers wouldn't have had the reaction to the tickler that we do.

[Frybabe]

It is the old "spare the rod, spoil the child" philosophy. Some people (and groups) believed (and some still do) that children should be brought up very strictly. They go a bit overboard, IMO.

So we have Mrs. Joe currying favor with Uncle Pumblechook, and P currying favor with Ms. Havisham. Each one trying to better their situation a little by doing so.

[marcie]

When Dickens writes about the corporal punishment of children (most of the actions of the child undeserving of any punishment), he seems to be describing the corporal punishment as abuse. He didn't agree with it, although it was likely accepted by many people of the time. Joe seems not to agree with Pip being punished by Mrs. Joe using the tickler but we've learned, at the end of Chapter VII, that it's because his father abused his mother (and Joe) that Joe goes overboard in not confronting Mrs. Joe in any way.
--------------

When Pip is told that he's to go to Miss Havisham's to play, he isn't told about any children there. He knows of Miss Havisham "as an immensely rich and grim lady who lived in a large and dismal house barricaded against robbers, and who led a life of seclusion."  Pip seems quite at a loss to know "why on earth I was going to play at Miss Havisham's, and what on earth I was expected to play at."

[JoanP]

We never see Pip playing with other children so far, do we?  We do see misbehaving boys at great aunt Wopsle's school room, can we count these as friends?  Maybe Biddy, her granddaughter comes closest.  Pip's only friend in the world seems to be Joe.

The gloomy breakfast at Uncle Pumblechook's - he was possessed of Pip's sister's idea that "a mortifying and penitential character ought to be imparted to his diet - Pip was given a piece of bread - a cup of milk, with such a quantity of warm water added - "it would have been more candid to have left the milk out altogether."  (Meanwhile his uncle was eating bacon and a hot roll "in a gorging and gormandizing manner.")

I couldn't help but think of what we talked about earlier - the definition of what it meant to be "raised by hand."

 

"By hand, brought up: "Infants, in the absence of the mother, were either sent out to be fed by a wet-nurse (another lactating woman), or were spoon- or bottle-fed. Mrs. Joe's claim to neighborhood fame -- that she raised Pip "by hand" -- its literal meaning  suggests abuse.
 "artificial infant foods in the 19th century were un-nutritious, often being nothing better than pap (a thin mixture, for example flour and water) or gruel."

It's almost as if these people are trying to starve Pip - Why?  To make him sorry he is alive and a burden?   He must be hungry much of the day... Corporal punishment, probably worse than the Tickler for the growing boy.

[JudeS]

Freud and humor:
There are listed on Google 1,740,000 sites in relation to this topic. Most of them, it seems, are jokes relating to Freud or Psychoanalysis.
Freud's book,"The Joke and its Relation to the Unconcious" states:"Jokes happen when the conciious expressed thoughts that society would usually suppress or forbade are verbalized."

A very harsh superego suppresses humor altogether.There are some religions that suppress humor and see it as a sin. These groups often ban music, books (except the Bible or the Koran),movies, dancing ,cards, games etc.

However most people need to vent pent up psychic energy and laughter is the best way of doing this. Shakespeare's Falstaff would be an example of Freuds"Comic". He generates laughter by expressing previously repressed inhibitions.

I really don't know how deeply this subject interests people on this site. If  more info is wanted I will gladly respond. Freud was born in 1856 so by the time he was reading books all of Dicken's works would have been available to him. Freud was an omnivorous reader and his liking and respect for Dickens work was well known.

Dickens"joke" of calling a paddling tool used to hurt children a "tickler" has many interpretations. Adults taking their frustrations out on children could say ,"I'm only tickling him."

[marcie]

JoanP, yes while Pumblechook was gorging himself on breakfast, he took the advice of Mrs. Joe and gave Pip crumbs and water with a few drops of milk. It seems that Pip was doing penance in advance of doing anything bad.

Thanks, Jude, for the information about Freud.

[Jonathan]

'It seems that Pip was doing penance in advance of doing anything bad.'

Or being made to do penance, Marcie? That's worth following up. Young Pip seems so prone to feelings of guilt and shame and eager to talk about them that I feel 'confessions' would have served very well in the title. He was not hard done-by as a child. Did he ever really feel the tickler? Like he felt the wedding ring when his sister was scrubbing him? That's what I understand by, 'raised by hand.' She was proud of her achievment.

Is there anything in Freud's writings which could be read as an analysis of a Dickens's character? I doubt it. I suspect the humor would get in the way. Or the eccentric English ways, in which the pride of the lowly is matched by the snobbery of the high and mighty, with poor Pip caught in the middle.

[JoanP]

I'm wondering if this is how most adults who were not well-to-do felt about children at this time, Jonathan?  Burdensome...ungrateful.  Especially those who had been foisted upon them - such as Pip.  Someone must be held to blame - and punished - the obvious one, the most vulnerable, the child.  Jude, I always thought of tickling as an intent to  torture.  Maybe torture is too strong a word for it, but...

It's been over 50 years since I read Great Expectations - the coming scenes inside Satis House are the  ones that have stayed with me after all those years.  Miss Havisham's character has since grown in my imagination as time goes by.

He lived near this this splendid house and watched it deteriorate into ruins, imagining its occupants.  Miss Havisham - the product of his imagination.

"The illustration below, also from Langton's Charles Dickens and Rochester (1880), shows the house on which Dickens based Miss Havisham's mansion:

"In Great Expectations, a brewery is attached to the house instead of a vineyard, and the house is called "Satis House" (its real name is "Restoration House"). According to Smith's History of Rochester (478-9), Restoration House was built in the late 16th century, and takes its name from a visit (of May 28-29, 1660) of the restored monarch, Charles II. It is still standing in Rochester today."

I cannot picture a BREWERY attached to this magnificent home, can you?  I wonder if we will read more about it in  coming chapters.  I can imagine Pip's overwhelmed feelings as he is led to the gate of this intimidating home, and is met by the prettiest girl he's ever seen.  I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how old she is, or how old Pip is at this first meeting.  What do you think?   Has much time has gone by since Pip's encounter with the escaped convict?

[PatH]

 I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how old she is, or how old Pip is at this first meeting.  What do you think?   Has much time has gone by since Pip's encounter with the escaped convict?

I'm having a lot of trouble with that too.  Pip brings Joe his ill-written letter about a year after the convict incident, and it seems to be the same evening that he goes off with Pumblechook to spend the night and go to Miss Havisham's.  But there are inconsistencies.  Could someone who can't write any better than that do the running sums and the shillings and pence arithmetic that Pumblechook keeps asking him?

[JoanK]

Lucky Dickens is vague about the ages of Pip and Estelle. They don't quite fit or make sense. I don't think he was trying too hard to make them realistic in terms of age. Best to just go with the flow on this one.

[marcie]

JoanK, I think your advice is good, "to go with the flow" regarding the ages of Pip and Estella. Trying to follow clues isn't very satisfactory. Whatever their actual ages, I think that we could say that Pip seems socially immature for his age and Estella seems precocious.

[marcie]

JoanP, thank you for providing that history and the wonderful picture relating to the creation of "Satis House."

Re the brewery on the premises, in the Norton Critical edition that I'm reading, there is a footnote that says, "In Dickens' time and earlier, beer was drunk with nearly all meals--very often upper-class households brewed their own. Water, which had to be drawn from the well, was nothing so refreshing as it is today; tea and coffee were too expensive for most families. The beer Pip was served would be the thin brew given to children...."

I guess that in earlier times, the family of Miss Havisham brewed their own special beer.

[bookad]

Jonathan--r 57  no I was in Forester Falls, Cobden area right on the Ottawa River at a friends cottage for the week/ weather was terrific just the right temperature to make being outdoors a delight.... hardly any insects to deter being outdoors

am now playing catchup madly  my life has been very hectic since arriving home from Ottawa have been volunteering with a cat rescue group and they are horribly understaffed at present 3,--6 hour days last week...can't not do it as the cats are so wonderful...gotta love them presently about 60 cats in the house

now on with the book...can anyone enlighten me as to what online resource might have dicken's english old words (or I will mail our librarian today to get her ideas on this)....I love all the unfamiliar/sort of familiar words thru the book and am constantly stopping to try and find their origins and dicken's implication in their use

have all my sources on my blackberry tab so can easily move between the book/ our group/ dictionary/ (and want a 19th century dictionary to use as well)

well off to the cat house again today
all the best
Deb

[Jonathan]

Deb, can you take in one more? There's a rumour that Miss Havisham's cat is looking for a new place. He's become jealous since Pip's arrival. Didn't your fellow-townsman, Stephen Leacock, also write a bio of Dickens. Have you read it? No doubt, now that I think about it, Leacock must have been influenced by Dickens's style.

About those inconsistencies in Pip's account of things. I think he has tipped us off several times that his account is based on memory and reflection, and he is writing it down years after the event, older and wiser. He is just as hard on himself as he is on his sister and Pumblechook.

I wondered if 'the brewery', now in a state of decay, was the source of the Havisham wealth. But perhaps these stately homes all had their 'breweries'.

Thanks Joan, for the great picture. Illustrations certainly enhanced the interest of Dickens's work.

[PatH]

Next to the convict, my most vivid memory of the book is Miss Havisham.  Goodness--she's just as dysfunctional as I remember, maybe even worse.  I can't imagine freezing yourself in time like that, sitting all day wrapped in your own sour thoughts of revenge.  And her wedding dress would never last the decades since she first put it on, even if she didn't wash it.  Nor, in a house so full of mice and black beetles, would there be any cake left under the cobwebs on the epergne.  I wonder how long ago she was jilted?  Maybe we'll find out later.

[JoanK]

And seems to me I remember a virtual costume party where JoanP came as Miss havisham! I didn't appreciate it at the time, but now I do. But PLEASE don't try to eat that wedding cake!

[JoanP]

Deb, I've wished for an OED, an Old English Dictionary many times - but cannot help you.  I understand what you are looking for, though. 60 cats! Do you have any of your own?  I agree with Jonathan, Satis House could use a few cats to cut down on the mouse population in the large hall. PatH - that epergne  was actually the wedding cake, I think!  Impossible to make it out clearly.

I'm not sure if it was Miss Havisham's appearance in her yellowing wedding attire, the yellowing veil on her white hair or the hall with the cobwebs, and mice and decaying wedding feast,  that stuck in my memory all these years, PatH.  I was a bit surprised to see that Pip wasn't brought into the hall until the following visit.  In memory, the two scenes were one.

[JoanP]

Dickens outdid himself in Miss Havisham's portrayal, didn't he?  The single shoe she is wearing, the half packed trunk of dresses, the pile on the dressing table -  watch, prayer book, gloves, jewels - everything indicating the moment frozen in time,  when she was given the stunning news that the wedding ceremony would not occur - and her life came to a standstill at twenty minutes to nine.  How does one get beyond such a stunning event?  Better than Miss Havisham did, I'll bet - she literally lost her mind.  

I've a friend whose daughter was left at the altar the day of her wedding.  The fiance just couldn't go through with it - and disappeared.  The lovely girl - in her forties now,  has never married, will never marry she says.  At least she's not still living at home.  She has her own apartment, and a job...but still devastated by what happened over twenty years ago.  She will not see any of her old friends and has no new ones.  Sad. Her life was changed that one morning.

Do  you think that Dickens will pick up her story and tell what happened to her young man?   No, don't answer that...I was just thinking out loud!  JoanK - you've quite a memory.  Yes, that was me in the yellowing wedding gown at the costume party.  Miss Havisham stays with me.

I don't understand or remember how Estella came to live at Satis House with Miss Havisham.  She seems so much older than Pip, doesn't she?  If Dickens chooses not to let us know the exact ages of Pip and Estella, he does indicate they are the same age:

"Though she called me "boy" so often, and with a carelessness that was far from complimentary, she was about my own age.  She seemed much older than I, of course, being a girl and beautiful and self-possessed..."

[JoanP]

ps Thanks, Jonathan, I'm going to keep that in mind...that the older, wiser Pip is writing of his early years - "his account is based on memory and reflection."   Like you, I've noticed that from time to time...but  have not really been aware of it throughout.

[PatH]

...that the older, wiser Pip is writing of his early years - "his account is based on memory and reflection."

There is a notable example of that at the start of Chapter XI.  Pip is waiting with the relatives of Miss Havisham who have come to pay respects on her birthday.

"Before I had been standing at the window five minutes, they somehow conveyed to me that they were all toadies and humbugs, but that each of them pretended not to know that the others were toadies and humbugs; because the admission that he or she did know it, would have made him or her out to be a toady and humbug."

Quite true, they promptly show themselves to be dreadful toadies, fencing with each other, but the Pip we see in the surrounding chapters wouldn't be able to see it clearly like that.

[marcie]

Dickens does provide wonderful details to help us visualize the world and characters he is creating but it seems we can't look too closely at some of the details, such as the ages of the children. There, he must want to give us some impressions rather than facts.


Deb, in the introduction to the Norton Critical Edition of Great Expectations, the editor  indicates that he's going to provide lots of footnotes, including to words and allusions that might not be familiar to many readers. He said that he asked his graduate students to read the book and underline anything they thought might not be understood by the reader. He says they underlined almost everything! So far, the book does provide lots of useful footnotes and explanations of terms. It's not a "Dickens dictionary" but might be helpful to you.

[JudeS]

Speaking of words, I didn't know what an epergne was so I looked it up in google. Not only did it give me the meaning,(An often ornate tiered centerpiece wrought of metal, bearing dishes, vases or candle holders) it also gave me rhymes of this word.
I found some of them quite amusing. Hope it gives you a giggle or at least a smile:
adjourn,astern,attorn,casern,discern,downturn,heartburn,Hepburn,intern, in turn,kick turn,Lucern,step turn, sunburn, U-turn,
windburn.

[PatH]

Ahoy!  There's an epergne astern!

[bookad]

Jonathan--think it best Miss H's cat remains in that dysfunctional society--which greatly reminds me of Alice In Wonderland & the teaparty with the mad hatter--my house hold has 2 cats, one of them a ferile cat we got from a Texas RV park that had accidentally trapped her and couldn't figure what to do with her---she is calico and after 4 years still very timid only I can approach her...she keeps out of the way of our dog, who is amazingly respective of her anxiety & will not go near my husband--would love to adopt one cat from the rescue group which has a sweet personality but my husband has a differing opinion on this matter

Joan-it is amazing with all the interest in Dickens that there is not an easy to be found source of his words--will contact the library to day to see if they are able to find something of this nature

Marcia--will also look for a penguin edition; I had one when reading Bleak House and found it very interesting with all the additions it had

found it very interesting that Pip should overnight at Mr. Pumblechook's home before meeting Miss H. --then to go directly home the next day a distance of 4 miles it says

[JoanP]

Deb,since Pumblechook is a tenant on Miss Havisham's estate, I think he wants it to appear that he is the one who is responsible for bringing Pip to Satis House...maybe even be rewarded for his trouble.  We've noticed that he didn't go out of his way to make Pip comfortable.  I wasn't too surprised that he didn't wait around to escort Pip home...although it wouldn't have been too much for him in his chaise.  He really doesn't care about Pip - it's what Pip can get for him that interests him. 
Does anyone remember the stated reason for Pip's visit?  Was it really just to play with Estella?  I saw a description of the card game they played...will have to look for it.

If Pumblechook  had waited for him, do you think Pip would have made up the whole business of the velvet coach, the flags, etc.?  Why did he not want to share what he saw inside the estate with Joe and his sister when he got home, does anyone remember?

For the first time in his life Pip  is feeling ashamed of his home and his people..."coarse and common."  That's an awful awful feeling - Has everyone experienced this at one time or another?  But why did he feel the need to protect the nutty inhabitants of Satis House from criticism?  Do you think it didn't matter what they were like - they made him ashamed of his own people and he didn't want to convey that to the Gargerys'?  Was he trying to protect his own family from his real feelings by diverting them with his wild lies?  Funny that they believed him, wasn't it?

 If it's the notes and footnotes you are after, I think you will want the Norton Critical edition that Marcie described -  over the Penguin, Deb