GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

...beginning JULY 1.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX

Chapter I

1. You first impressions of Pip?   If he is the central focus of the novel, do you get an idea  of his character and how he will develop from the opening pages?
 
2.  We're told that Dickens began Great Expectations, intending to write a light, humorous tale.  Do you see any examples of humor in the opening scenes of the book?

3.  What can you find about the Hulks?  Where are they coming from?  Where are they going?

Chapter II

1. Has Pip  had  any attention, nurturing,  or education in the Gargery home that you can see?  How is the sister who raised him described?  Is she an important character in Pip's formation?

2. What frightens Pip more, the man with the his leg in irons; the other convict who wants his liver, his sister's hand when she discovers he has stolen,  or his own conscience if he carries out the convict's request?  

3. Is Joe Gargery truly Joe's friend and  protector?  If so, why did he get him in trouble for  bolting his bread?  Do you get the sense that this is Christmas Eve in the Gargery house?

Chapter III

1. Does Pip seem to pity the convict's situation, or is he simply terrifyed of his threat?  Why did Pip bring him the "veritable feast," and the brandy?  Was this necessary?

2.  "I couldn't help it, it wasn't for myself," protests Pip to the black ox.  Does Pip have a  conscience or does  he just fear he will get caught?

Chapter IV

1.   Were you at all surprised at Pip's description of Mrs. Joe as a hostess?,   Fairly perceptive for such a young boy, don't you think? How old is Pip when the story begins?

2.  How does the Gargery circle of friends view Pip?  Why would Pip not be allowed to address Joe's uncle as Uncle Pumblechook?  Do you think he'll be an important person in Pip's life?

3. Sister lists her catalogue of the trouble Pip has been to her, tells the assembled how she has wished him in his grave and then asks,   "Why are the young never grateful?"  Is Dickens defending orphan children in general from this unfair assessment?

Chapter V

1. Why is Pip hopeful that his convict will not be found?  Is it simply because he's afraid he'd think he brought the soldiers to the marshes? Is he still fearful of the convict?

2.  How did Joe react to the convict's confession that he stole the "wittles" Pip had brought to him?  How to explain this pact of silence between Pip and the convict?

Chapter VI

1.  Pip loves Joe "because the dear fellow let me love him."  What does this tell about Joe's personality?

2.  Why does Pip resist telling him the truth about what happened to his file?  What does this tell us about Pip's character?  

Chapter VII

1.  Why is Dickens so cruel in describing  Mr. Wopsle's great aunt as that "ridiculous old woman of limited means?"  How did you react to this"   What kind of an education is  Pip at this Educational institution?  Who is his primary instructor?

2.  How does Pip react to Joe's assertions that Joe's father  was "good in his hart" and Pip's sister, Joe's wife is "a fine figure of a woman?"  Do you think Joe believes what he tells Pip?  Does Pip?

3.  Who has the "great expectations" for Pip's future as he heads up to Miss Havisham's? Is he grateful for this opportunity?  Who arranged this play date for him?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[marjifay]

Pip seems like a good little boy who has a terrible guilty conscience when he has to choose between being maimed by the scary old man who threatened him at the cemetary and stealing food for the man from his forbidding older sister who he calls Mrs. Joe, who is proud of having brought him up "by hand" with beatings from her "tickler."  Luckily he has his uncle Joe for a friend. 

Marj

[BarbStAubrey]

Here we are talking of a movie/TV production giving us information that helps us place the story and Pip is trying to remember his mother without aid of even a photo. Ironic...

We are so used to having photos of deceased close family members that it is difficult to imagine having no clue - with everyone depending on sharing their memory picture of folks - this all reminded me of my experience in the 1990s of hiking in the mountains of Northwest Mexico - there were 8 of us with one guy from Lubbock organizing the trip who had a small thatched roof two room house in a small village next to a river that was used for everything - During our hiking for days in the area, with a burro and a local villager as a guide we came across families that lived in houses carved out of the side of mountains and many women who had to plant and bring in the crop of corn, their only food source not knowing when or if ever their husbands would return from seeking work for money in either Northern Mexico or the US. This is when you learn that families live on what they can grow each year and if the winter is longer or the crop small it is usual for at least one child and the elderly to die. We hiked with the burro weighted down with bags of rice and beans that we gave especially to these women living alone caring for their children.

We would take photos and the guy from Lubbock would return to the areas that his group hiked (he lead two hikes in Spring and one in Summer) to give the families the photos taken. No one had a poloroid camera.

The most startling and memorable experience was when hiking through tall grass a handlebar mustached guy rides up on horseback looking every bit like a Bandido with pistols on both hips and a rifle on either side of his saddle. He tells us - not asks but tells us - to stop and wait - and yes, with butterflies in our stomachs we freeze in our tracks and wait - about 5 minutes later he rides up would you believe with a young boy child around 2 sitting behind the horn of his saddle, his grandson, and asks us to take their photo - relief and smiles all around -

We hike only another two miles or so and a young man in his late 20s meets up with us - his family was photographed during the earlier trip that Spring - the guy from Lubbock who arranged the trip hands him his photos and he bursts into tears - seems his father had died only weeks before and these are the only photos they had of his father. Much thanks and do we want water which is as precious as gold since we are up high away from the river - we decline but squat down with him for a bit as he keeps looking at the likeness of his father while tears flow - sobbing he talks on about his father. My Spanish is not that good but I could get enough to know the father was being eulogies for us.

Amazing how something as simple as a photograph can mean so much - our lifestyle allows us to take so much for granted - so that I can feel the yearning Pip must have to try to reconstruct in his mind's eye his mother's likeness.

[JoanP]

Let's put together an image of Pip from what you've posted yesterday - he's young, between the ages of 7-12.  We seem to agree closer to 7 since Joe was able to carry him a distance after the escaped convict.

He
Barbara, that's a touching story- not even a photograph.  I seem to remember that Pip only recently has discovered the churchyard cemetery and his family's   gravesite...covered with brambles.  "Mrs. Joe" has clearly not been visiting or tending her parents' grave...and that of the five little Pirrips.
Quick now, without looking it up, do you remember Pip's name?  And his sister's?  Why do you suppose she is referred to as Mrs. Joe?  Does Pip know it?  She is said to be 20 years older than Pip.  Maybe she had married Joe before Pip was born and that's the only name Pip knew?

Frybabe finds him imaginative...and impressionable and he does  seem to have a  conscience as Marji observed.  Or is he just frightened?
 What frightens Pip more, the man with the his leg in irons; the other convict who wants his liver, his sister's hand when she discovers he has stolen,  or his own conscience if he carries out the convict's request?
Is he aware that what he is doing is wrong?
I'm wondering why he didn't confide in Joe Gargery.  He didn't seem to need or want advice.  He is intent on getting wittles and the file back to the convict.  And why such a sumptious feast - the brandy, the pie?  Maybe there is something to what Jonathan is saying about him - is he sensitive to the convict's dire situation - or is he simply afraid of him?

[JudeS]

Every source I've seen says Pip is seven  when the story begins. He is still at an age where fanrasy and reality are blurred.
(According to the accepted expert, the Swiss Jean Piaget) The ability to differentiate between fact and fiction (or imagination) occurs for most (though not for all) around eight years.

Therefore Pip takes seriously the threats he hears (I''ll eat your liver). He has been abused by his sister but loved by his Uncle Joe. Joe is a kindly surrogate father to Pip. Pip is generally a good child, learns his ABC's and tries to help Joe learn too, as he shares his knowledge.  So Pip's character  at the begginning of this story is   basically kind and helpful, if terribly naive.

We, or at least I, immediately love and care about this little boy that for his bravery and his goodness (even if prompted by fear)..
Dickens, as usual, gives us characters to love and characters to hate from the beginning. And of course he whets our curiosity with people like the convict.
Oh, I am so hooked.

[marcie]

Just thinking aloud. If Pip is seven and his sister is 20 years older than he is, that would make her 27 when the story begins and 20 years old when he was born. Pip never knew his mother or father so they must have died shortly after his birth (his father could have died first, some months prior to his birth). His sister could well have been married before Pip was born. I can see Joe wanting to care for the orphaned Pip more than I see his sister wanting to be "saddled" with him, although she at least agreed to raise Pip (if it was Joe's wish). It's possible it was her sense of duty that caused her to raise him. It's an awful picture but quite a vivid one, with some humor, that Dickens paints with his phrase, she "raised him by hand."

His name made an impression on me so I do remember Philip Pirrip. I have forgotten his sister's name.

[Babi]

  It does seem to me that though Pip is very much afraid of the convict,...and even more
afraid of the terrible young described by his captor...fear would have only driven him
to do as he was told.  The additions of the pie and the brandy seems to be a sensitive
awareness of the man's pitiful condition. I think Jonathan's right.
   Joe Gargary is described as “a mild, good-natured, sweet-tempered, easy-going, foolish, dear
fellow- a sort  of Hercules in strength and also in weakness.”   I immediately found myself
wondering, what were Hercules weaknesses?  I found a couple of opinions that his weakness
was lust and gluttony, but that certainly does not fit Joe Gargary.  The weakness that probably
fits best is the Hercules was not noted for a high IQ.  I suspect that is also true of the 'mild,
good-natured’ Joe.

  A dry bit of humor, I almost missed it.  Pip, terrified at the thought he has encountered the
murderous 'young man’ who would eat his heart and liver, “felt his heart shoot”.  “I dare say I would have felt a pain in my liver, too, if I had known where it was.”

[JoanP]

Babi, there are a number of dry humorous comments like that - thanks for sharing that one.  I liked that Pip thought his mother's name was "Also Georiana" - as was written on the tombstone...and also that fact that that's all it said about her, almost  an afterthought indicating that she is buried there too..
It seems that his sister never talks about their parents - Pip discovered the gravesite and the names by accident.

Do you think Pip senses that Joe is no match for Mrs. Joe?  He isn't much protection- she's "government"  So he steals Joe's file, afraid to tell Joe that he is going to do it.  The boy has no confidant really, no one to share these  fears with.

 I still want to know why the woman is not called by her name. Marcie, I don't think you've forgotten it because I don't think she tells her name - at least in these chapters.   Even Joe calls her Mrs. Joe.  Maybe Dickens will let us know in later chapters.  But Pip's name - yes, Phillip Pirrip.  Pip is just perfect.  We have a friend whose name is Phillip - he's always been "Flip"...

Didn't you find her interesting, Marcie?  She has no children of her own - just Pip, and she wastes no time telling everyone how she wishes him in his grave...bragging how she's raised him "by hand." Something happened to her to make her so bitter, don't you think? What effect does this have on the little boy? Don't you wonder how he became so Kind and helpful, Jude, coming from such an environment?  I wonder how his parents died.  Did Dickens explain that and I've forgotten?

[JudeS]

JoanP
The book doesn't tell us when Pip's parents died. He may have experienced their love and kindnes till age three or four.
Certainly after losing five little boys in a row before Pip's birth they would shower this living boy with much love and adoration.
We also don't know who died first, his Mother or his  Father. But Pip is much loved by Joe and this gives him the strength to weather his sister's cruel remarks and even her blows.
Pip came to this family of Joe and his sister after already having been loved enough to have his character set in a certain direction. However the cruelty of his sister will also have its effects on his character as time goes by.

[Frybabe]

does it surprise anyone that Pip's sister treats him as she does? Her own brother. Is she mean spirited because the boys were more important in her family to begin with? And then Joe takes a shine to him. Jealousy? does she feel she is being put in second place behind a brother - again? Simple age difference doesn't cut it with me. Where are her maternal instincts?

[Babi]

  I don't think it was customary in those days to address a married woman by her first
name. Close female friends might, of course, but the more formal 'Mrs..." was customary.
Perhaps since everyone probably called Joe by his first name, his wife simply became
'Mrs. Joe'. 
 Her method of ‘bringing up’ Pip ‘by hand’ was also most uncomfortable. “I was always
treated as though I had insisted on being born in opposition to the dictates of reason,
religion, and morality, and against the dissuading arguments of my best friends.”

 Pure Dickens...  “Mrs. Joe was a very clean housekeeper, but had an exquisite art of
making her cleanliness more uncomfortable and unacceptable than dirt itself. Cleanliness
is next to Godliness, and some people do the same by their religion. “
 

[marcie]

I am thinking that Pip's parents died when he was a very young infant and he didn't experience either their nurture or neglect, since he says in the second paragraph of the book, "As I never saw my father or my mother, and never saw any likeness of them... my first fancies of what they were like, were unreasonably derived from their tombstones."

What a great beginning to the book!!

[Jonathan]

The Godliness of some people! Better they should be Godless.

Who deserves pity and sympathy in this tale? Are they getting it? The convict? The stessed wife? The frightened, conscience-ridden child? Try falling asleep, wondering where your liver is located. How it would taste to someone else. Only in Dickens. Dickens was advised to get the humor back into his writing - after Bleak House and Tale of Two Cities. Isn't iti obvious how hard he is trying?

I liked Barbara's illustration of the importance of pictures. And isn't that exactly what we are always getting from Dicken's. Such vivid pictures. I remember reading about a ball in his honor in New York duing his first visit to America. The walls were covered with the images of his characters. Instantly recognizable.

Pity poor Mrs Joe. Only, as she says, a blacksmith's wife. Living a life of duty. While her brother is destined for a life of expectation, one way or another. Of course I'm not sure what is meant by great expectation. Is it wishful thinking or a moral imperative. For the young Pip it is felt very strongly that everyone is expecting something of him. It leaves him feeling so guilty he can hardly sleep.

[JoanP]

The time and thought an author must put into the opening lines of a book!  I always pay attention to the dedication and the opening line when starting a new book.

Though my Penguin edition shows no dedication - (I thought maybe because it was first printed in seriel form in Dickens'  magazine) - I did a quick search of the first rough manuscript and found some interesting facts -


"The first page of the text shows how Dickens was constantly revising his work: in the famous opening line, ‘My father’s family name being Pirrip, and my christian name Philip ...', ‘infant’ is written above a crossed-out word – ‘childish’, perhaps? Such changes throughout the manuscript must have made the task of the printer’s compositor a difficult one

Chauncy Hare Townshend (1798–1868), to whom the [original] manuscript is dedicated, was a friend who shared Dickens's interest in mesmerism and the occult. He left the manuscript, along with the crystal ball with which he and Dickens experimented, and many other books and artefacts, to the Wisbech and Fenland Museum"

"Pity poor Mrs Joe."  Jonathan

For some reason I believed that Pip's mother died in childbirth.  She didn't have an easy time giving birth - judging from the tiny lozenge-shaped stones marking the buriel sites of his brothers.  I'm assuming that the sister is the only living sibling and since she was 20 years older than Pip, I'm also assuming that she watched her mother lose infant after infant.  It isn't any wonder that she would not want to go through the same agony herself..

    The woman has a story, but I'm not expecting Dickens to get into it.  I think we will have to just accept that Pip has been raised from a very young age by what assumes to be a very miserable, hardened woman. I agree with you, Marcie...I think that Pip has had a childhood deprived of care and nurture.  Could be she resents the baby because she lost her mother this time, rather than just another brother.

  It's a wonder to me that she married our dear Mr. Joe.  Did she expect happiness? Was this her great expectation?  Did marriage to Joe make her happy?  Would she have been happy without the burden of the baby thrust upon her?

Frybabe, I hadn't considered that she might be jealous of the warm, natural relationship between her husband and her brother.  Yes, I still pity this woman - who seems to have no life and no expectations.
Babi that's an interesting observation about the custom of using the more formal "Mrs." at the time - but to have your little brother call you Mrs. Joe?  Does that indicate that she wanted to keep him from getting too close to her - if he called her by her given name?  There was another odd note about Pip not being allowed to address Joe's Uncle Pumblechook as "uncle" - had to use the formal Mr. Pumblechook with him...  How did you understand this?

[JoanK]

I'm here, but not posting much, as my computer is having temper tantrums.

[bookad]

I'm here as well; just got in from Ottawa where there was no internet available to me.  So I missed out of the end of the book Run as well. Almost thru chapter 7.
Deb

[JoanP]

Time to get Tickler after that unruly computer, JoanK.  Until it gets better, keep reading okay?  Need to know you are here.

Deb - I guess you missed the storms and the heat in Ottowa?  Lucky, lucky you!  Due to the power outages, we've kept Run open a few extra days.  Would be interested to hear what your final thoughts on that book too.

Let's look closely at the convict and his attitude towards Pip when he returns with the file and the "wittles" - did you notice a change in him?  By the time Pip returns to the marches with Joe, Pip is routing for his convict to escape.  A change in Pip too?
Is Dickens leaving enough room for this convict's innocence as he tackles the other convict to return him to the Hulks?  Can anyone find information regarding these ships?  Where are they coming from?  Where are they going?

[Babi]

Now that you mentioned it, JOANP, I'm not certain whether Pip addressed his sister as Mrs. Joe, or simply referred to her by that name, as everyone else did. When speaking directly to her, he more likely just said, 'Yes, ma'am' and 'No, ma'am'.

  The convict was definitely surprised, and touched, by Pip's thoughtful gesture. 
Afterwards, Pip did not seem to be afraid of him, tho' he continued to be terrified at
the thought of the fictitious bloodthirsty young man.  Then once safely home, he
must deal with the terrors of being discovered as the one who had stolen the food
and the file.  Heavy burdens for so young a child. 

[Jonathan]

Did you participate in the July I celebrations in Ottawa, Deb?

Happy July 4, to everyone south of the border. Something of me was in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, last night. Did it rain? My teenage granddaughter and her marching band are there to participate in the midnight parade and other events. She's seldom home. Last December her band marched along with the others in Pearl Harbor. After that the Santa Claus parade here in Toronto, and next year it's Dublin for the St Patrick's Day's parade. Why midnight? Is it too hot during the day? But no. There are all kinds of musical things going on in the plaza all day. I must remember to watch the program at the Capitol tonight. Surely it won't be rained out like the Memorial Day event.

Great expectations, everybody. You too, Miss Havisham. And Magwitch. And Mrs Joe.

[JudeS]

Dicken's in his infinite brilliance describes Joe as what is known as a HELPING WITNESS.

A helping witness is a person who stands by an abused child offering support and acting as a balance against the cruelty that otherwise dominates the childs life. They give sympathy and affection to the child. They trust the child and help them feel they are not bad or evil but worthy of kindness from others.Even though the person (Joe) may not be aware of their role,
children in difficult situations can see that there is such a thing as love in the world.  In the best cases the child learns how to develop trust in their fellow human beings and see the abusers as an anomaly rather than identifying with the abuser and becoming one themself.

Honestly, I sometimes think that Freud must have read Dicken's and then developed some of his theories based on the characters in the books.

[JoanP]

"The convict was definitely surprised, and touched, by Pip's thoughtful gesture."

Even the most hardened criminal responds to thoughtful gestures, is that what Dickens is implying here, Babi?  Likewise the "helping witness"  who stands by an abused child offering support as Jude describes Joe.

 "Freud must have read Dicken's and then developed some of his theories based on the characters in the books."  How very interesting, Jude.  But that leaves the question - where is Dickens getting his psychological insights from?  Perhaps from observation...

I noted one comment - in chapter 6, where Dickens writes, "Pip loves Joe because in the early days the dear fellow let me love him."  Maybe that's all it takes -Too bad his sister wasn't able to do the same.  Do you think she is jealous of the closeness between Pip and Joe? 

Jonathan, I've  great expectations of the grand fireworks display on the mall in DC tonight - along with so many neighbors still without power from the recent storm!  We'll still turn out to sing "Happy Birthday, America!"

[Frybabe]

I didn't know what Tar-Water was, so I looked it up. It is a solution made with pine sap/pitch and water. Yuck!

Interestingly, Dickens described two pair of Staffordshire dogs sitting on Mrs. Joe's mantel in the room that is only used for company occasions. They may be pricey now, but apparently they were produced starting in the 1700s sometime for working class home decor. I wanted to confirm that, but my wireless connection gets flaky down here for some reason.

Poor little Pip, having to put up with that bunch of adults who seem to assume that because he is a boy he is automatically bad and needs a morality lesson every chance they can squeeze one into the conversation. He himself fears the worst of himself. Ah, conscience can be a powerful thing. If it doesn't prevent you from straying, it can unleash a powerful and sustaining self-torture.

[Babi]

 I hadn't heard the term 'helping witness' before, JUDE. That is exactly what Joe is
doing for Pip, isn't it?  Freud, is it? Good start to the morning; Ilearned something
new.
  The sensitivity of children.  As Dickens says, “...the child is small, and his world
is small...”  Pip feels strongly the injustice of his sister’s way of ‘raising him by
hand’.  I can remember feeling strongly the small injustices of my childish world.  The
more so, I imagine, because I felt so helpless to set them right.
 
  Pip's treatment at the hands of all his sister's friends is incredible.  I suppose it's a fine
example of 'birds of a feather'.  And Pumblechook is one of the worst.
 
 

[PatH]

Freud did indeed admire Dickens.  I don't remember where I read it, but here's a comment on it; it deals with David Copperfield, not Great Expectations.

http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-david-copperfield/ideasforreportsandpapers.html

[JoanP]

Remember when we read Bleak House, we were stunned by  the number of orphans in Dickens' work... Esther, Jo, David C, and now another one -  Pip.  It helps to know that Freud was a reader, and admirer of Dickens' work, PatH.  There's a book by Carol Dever of Vanderbilt, who analized texts by Dickens, Collins, Eliot, Darwin and Woolf, as well as Freud:

Death and the Mother from Dickens to Freud: Victorian Fiction and the Anxiety of Origins

"Victorian novels almost always represent mothers as incapacitated, abandoning or dead... Maternal loss is the prerequisite for Victorian representations of domestic life, a fact which has especially complex implications for women. When Freud constructs psychoanalytical models of family, gender and desire, he too assumes that domesticity begins with the death of the mother."   Carol Dever

In a way, though she was a bit older, Mrs. Joe, was an orphan herself - one who came from a home with no working example of what a wife and mother was all about.  Though she was harsh in manner and tongue to Pip, "unjust" as you point out, Babi - you have to keep in mind where this woman was coming from and her intentions, I think.  The Tar-water  Frybabe describes is a good example.  She really wasn't trying to torture Pip, was she?  

[JoanP]

"Poor little Pip, having to put up with that bunch of adults"

Frybabe, I had to keep reminding myself that this "merry" little gathering takes place on Christmas Eve....
I was most surprised when the Wopsles, the Hubbles and Mr. Pumblechoot turned up in the Gargerys' parlor to celebrate.  A new way of looking Mrs. Joe - she had friends!  No children, but like-minded folks, invited to share a sumptuous meal prepared by this poor blacksmith's wife, who had so much to do, she had to go to church vicariously!   Didn't you enjoy the way Dickens introduced the tar water that had been administered to Pip for bolting his food.  That gets us ready for the moment Uncle Pumblechoot takes his first swig of brandy.  Dickens is still trying to make this into a humorous novel...

[Jonathan]

'Lor-a-mussy me!' cried my sister.

'Pip, I hope you'll overlook shortcomings.' Joe to Pip, meaning Mrs Joe's tough love in Pip's upbringing.

'Your sister is a fine figure of a woman.'

'Your sister is given to government...of you and myself.'

'Your sister's a maste-mind. A master-mind.'

'Lord have mercy on me! cried my sister, casting off her bonnet in sudden desperation, here I stand talking to mere Mooncalfs, wth Uncle Pumblechook waiting, and the mare catching cold at the door, and the boy grimed with crock and dirt from the hair of his head to the sole of his foot.'

Raised by hand. Everyone, it seems to me, is taking a hand in Pip's upbringing. He's growing up in the lap of plenty. Looking to the stars for help and pity, as he does, is ridiculous.  Look for the ingratitude, which is sure to follow.

I'm surprised that Freud was taken in by Dickens's child psychology.

[JudeS]

Pat
Thanks so much for verifying the connection between Dickend and Freud.
It was just a stab in the dark on my part.

 Dickens is so astute in his observations, chooses such complex,deprived heros and heroines that he sets himself an impossible task if he wants his book to be humorous. Of course there will be humorous moments but basically the situations he describes are so dire that humor really doesn't come to mind.
Perhaps Dickens tried to make Mr. Pumble...... so bad that he was funny. The problem is that he describes such a base human being that it is impossible to find him funny. Disgusting, self serving and mean he is. Hard to see that as funny.
Especially as it effects our Pip.

[Jonathan]

When I was a child I heard about spirit of turpentine as being an excellent nostrum.We had some in the house. Dreadful stuff. The tar water sounds something like that.

[Jonathan]

Ah, yes. Mr Pumblechook needs Mrs Joe's help with his grocery shopping!

[Jonathan]

I wonder if Freud ever saw the humor in Dickens.

[JoanP]

Jonathan, an interesting question.  I'd imagine if Freud had a sense of humor, he'd recognize the dry humor here...unless he is so caught up in these mean-spirited characters that he fails to see the humor.  Jude, will you take the role of Freud here, and let us know if/when you see anything that makes you smile?  I'm finding Pip's reactions and responses, particularly humorous.  He rarely fails to say what he is thinking, in an understated way, of course - I like the way that Dickens lets us into his thought process, even when he doesn't tell adults outright what he thinks.  I like the way he is able to speak freely to Joe, too - another way we get insight into what he is thinking.  I don't see him too distressed from the constant barrage of criticism.  Maybe he's used to it.

It is Uncle Pumblechook - he is Joe's uncle - who brokers the connection with Miss Haversham.  Before we get into a discussion of the new opportunities opening up to Pip, we leave behind that convict,  in custody - heading back to the Hulks from which he had escaped.  I was curious to learn where he was going - certain we would be hearing more of this guy.

I learned a few things about these hulks:

"A prison hulk was a hulk used as a floating prison. They were used extensively in Great Britain, the Royal Navy producing a steady supply of ships too worn-out to use in combat, but still afloat. The harbour location of prison hulks was also convenient for the temporary holding of persons being transported to Australia and elsewhere overseas. These were decommissioned in the mid-19th century.

The vessels were a common form of internment in Britain and elsewhere in the 18th and 19th centuries. Charles F. Campbell writes that around 40 ships of the British Navy were converted for use as prison hulks.[3] Other hulks included HMS Warrior, which became a prison ship at Woolwich in February 1840,[4] One was established at Gibraltar, others at Bermuda, at Antigua, off Brooklyn in Wallabout Bay, and at Sheerness. Other hulks were anchored off Woolwich, Portsmouth, Chatham, Deptford, and Plymouth-Dock/Devonport.[5] Private companies owned and operated the hulks holding prisoners bound for penal transportation."

Charles Dickens' novel Great Expectations opens in 1812 with the escape of the convict from hulk moored in the Thames Estuary. In fact, the prison ships were largely moored in the neighboring River Medway, but Dickens combined real elements to create fictional locations for his work."

[JoanP]

Pip's education -

What did you think of Mr. Wopsle's great aunt's "Institution of Learning"?  Who is Biddy?  (what kind of a name is Biddy?)  I was under the impression she is Pip's age - but she seems to be the "teacher" doesn't she?  Does this little schoolhouse pass for education at this time?  My oh my.  If Pip was to become Joe's apprentice in the forge, education isn't too important for that occupation.  His future doesn't look too bright, does it.  Education, except for the wealthy was not a priority in Victorian England was it?  Do you think Dickens is making a statement about this situation.  He called for many reforms in other areas - is education one of them?

[PatH]

Joe's description in chapter VII of his early life, courtship, and how he feels about Pip is pretty touching.  He was lonely, and Pip's sister was lonely, and he found something attractive in her.  Given how loving he is to Pip, I wonder if the helpless baby was part of the attraction.

Thanks for that information about the Hulks, JoanP.

[Babi]

 Two examples of Dickens original intent to make this a comic story:
  The outrageous lies told by Pip about his visit to Lady Havisham’s,  and the gaping
astonishment and excitement of his sister and ‘uncle’ over every ridiculous detail.
  The description of Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt’s ‘school’,  the books, the teaching
methods of the old lady...when awake...and pulling some unlucky lads ears as the sign
that lessons were over.

  JONATHAN, I can't really see Pip as living 'in the lap of luxury'. And I suspect it
is only the loving presence of Joe that prevents him from falling into worse than
ingratitude.  What child can survive untouched by so much negativity about his character,
behavior and prospects?

[PatH]

One more bit of trivia: a footnote in my book says that tar-water, a concoction of pine extract and fir extract, was a popular cure for almost everything, and that a pint would be an adult dose.  So Mrs. Gargery was overdoing it, but not being any more abusive than giving a child castor oil would have been.

[marcie]

There is a very interesting and informative article on Charles Dickens and Victorian Education, extracted from The Oxford Reader's Guide to Dickens, at http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html

[JoanP]

Thanks for that article, Marcie!  It confirms what I suspected - that Dickens himself had been through such an "early education."  He writes from what he knows, though injects humor in the telling, as Babi noted...

"Dickens's early years coincided with the state's growing sense of responsibility for the instruction of its citizens. Access to education varied tremendously, according to location, gender, and class. Those who could pay for their schooling had access to several types of institutions -- though quality was by no means guaranteed. Dickens's own experience is case in point: his education, which he acknowledged to have been "irregular" (letter of July 1838), and relatively slight, began in Chatham, where he was a pupil at a dame-school -- a deficient private establishment with an unqualified woman at its head, similar to the one run by Mr. Wopsle's great-aunt (GE 7). "

 The article is also a good indication of  Dickens' intent in describing the Wopsle schoolhouse:

"He stopped short of offering practical solutions to problems, and his work only reflects a selected range of issues and institutions.  He never joined any of the reforming societies, and seemed more comfortable dealing with particular cases and large principles, rather than legislation and administration."

[Jonathan]

'He stopped short of offering practical solutions to problems, and his work only reflects a selected range of issues and institutions.  He never joined any of the reforming societies, and seemed more comfortable dealing with particular cases and large principles, rather than legislation and administration." 

Isn't that interesting. It seems Dickens was a reporter rather than a reformer. He had little to offer in the way of solutions, but a great ability and talent to raise awareness of social problems. And getting to know his characters is most of the fun in reading him.

Take the convict for example. He does show an element of humanity, doesn't he? He shows his gratitude for the file and vittles that Pip brings him and makes certain that Pip will not suffer for his theft. Later he seems more gratified that his fellow convict will be brought to justice than concerned about his own welfare. We'll be hearing more about that, no doubt.

Babi, I didn't mean to suggest that Pip is living in the lap of luxury, only that, all in all, he is being raised in decent circumstances. It is Miss Havisham's place, suggesting a whole different world that leaves him bewildered and speechless to the point of lying. Seeing himself through other eyes leaves him unhappy with his upbringing.

[JoanP]

Jonathan, I agree with you about that convict.  He doesn't seem to be a bad sort, but there must be some reason he is detained on the Hulk and it seems he's headed for an Australian penal colony...  I'll put money on it that he was unfairly convicted of something - Injustice seems to be another favoite topic here.

Ah, Miss Havisham's...now we're getting into familiar territory - this woman, the centerpiece of Great Expectations.  We are coming to the end of the first Volume and see Pip's family sending  him off with high hopes that their lot will improve if she takes a liking to Pip.  Pip is spruced up - dressed up in that horrid new suit and  sent off with Uncle Pemblechook for a playdate with little Estella.  Do you think Pip knows how to play - anything?  It was Joe's uncle who brokered Pip's visit to the big house on the hill.  I'm wondering why they thought that Pip would bring benefits to the family by playing with the little girl?