Author Topic: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online (Read 116948 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #160 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:31:08 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

JULY and AUGUST

GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens

Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule

VOLUME 1

July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX

Chapter XIV

1. Why is Pip so discontented with his home and occupation?

2. Does Joe realize how Pip feels?

Chapter XV

1. Why does Pip really want to visit Miss Havisham?

2. What is a journeyman?

Chapter XVI

1. Pip felt guilty while reading George Bramwell, and now feels guilty about his sister. Why?

2. Who do you think attacked Mrs. Joe? What was their motive?

3. Who are the Bow Street Runners?

Chapter XVII

1. Biddy and Pip are now growing up. What are Pip's feelings toward Biddy? Hers toward him?

2. Does Pip understand his own feelings? Why is he in such a turmoil?

3. Dickens describes Pip's ambitions very vividly. Does this relate to Dickens' own life?

Chapter XVIII

1. If you don't already know, who do you think has given Pip so much money. Why did they do this? (If you do know, please keep the secret.)

2. What does the term "Great Expectations" actually mean?

Chapter XIX

1. How has the attitude of the townspeople changed towards Pip?

2. What attitude does Pip now take toward Joe and Biddy?

3. What does Pumblechook want from Pip?

4. Pip is off to start a new life. If you don't know, what do you think will become of him?

Relevant Links:

Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education

DLs: JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi, JoanK

Babi · « **Reply #161 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:09:00 AM »

I also agree, JOANK. Pip no longer servies Miss Havisham's purpose,
which is to train Estella to manipulate, despise and 'punish' men. Can't
have her becoming fond of Pip.

A journeyman is someone who has finished their apprenticeship and
knows the trade, but is not yet a master. To be a master the journeyman
had to complete a 'masterpiece' and submit it to his trade guild. If they
approved it, he beame a 'master' craftsman.

Jonathan · « **Reply #162 on:** July 16, 2012, 12:04:49 PM »

It's wonderful to hear from you, hats. Please join in, and have some fun with this book.

Why did Miss Havisham send Pip away to serve an apprenticeship in blacksmithing? Who can tell what is going on in that head of hers. Living in the past and planning the future...of others. Perhaps she feels herself losing control in her manipulations of these two children.

Perhaps Pip has even grown fond of her after a fashion. So, it must have been a sudden surprise, 'when, one day, Miss Havisham stopped short as she and I were walking, she leaning on my shoulder; she said with some displeasure; You are growing tall, Pip! (near end of chapter 12)

Every visit to Satis House was made with the hope of meeting Estella. Right? To win her respect he wants to better himself. Then, back in the blacksmith's shop, helping Joe, he sees only Estella's face in the fire, with her pretty hair fluttering in the wind and her eyes scorning me...after that, when we went in to supper, the place and the meal would have a more homely look than ever, and I would feel more ashamed of home than ever, in my own ungracious breast. (end, chapter 14

It's interesting to compare that feeling with the feelings expressed by his sister, in the last paragraph of Chapter 12, when she thinks of herself as the door-mat under our feet, and goes into a heart-breaking Rampage.

Isn't Joe the real gentleman in all this?

JudeS · « **Reply #163 on:** July 16, 2012, 12:09:25 PM »

In Chapter XIX there are many examples of humor. I marked many in a short few pages:

Pip:"What lay heaviest on my mind, was the consideration that six days intervened between me and the day of departure; for, I could not divest myself of a misgiving that something might happen to London in the meanwhile, and that when I got there, it would be either greatly deteriorated or clear gone.'

Pip:"As I passed the church I felt.....A sublime compassion for the poor creatures who were destined to go there Sunday after Sunday, all their lives through........I promised myself that I would do something for them......and formed a plan for bestowing a dinner of roast beef,and plum pudding, a pint of ale , and a gallon of condescension, upon everyone in the village."

Pip: "No moreof these grazing cattle-though they seemed, in their dull manner, to wear a more respectful air now, and to face round, in orderthat they might stare as long as possible at the possessor of such great expectations."

Pip:"So Mr. Trabb measured and calculated me, in the parlour, as if I were an estate and he the finest surveyor, and gave
himself such a world of troublethat I felt that no suit of clothes could possibly remunerate him for his pains."

I could go on but I will leave it to others to continue this list if they are so inclined.

Tomorrow I am having an eye operation so I don't know when I will be back on line again. I hope all goes well and it will be sooner rather than later.

PatH · « **Reply #164 on:** July 16, 2012, 01:21:20 PM »

Good luck, Jude, hope all goes well with your surgery.

PatH · « **Reply #165 on:** July 16, 2012, 02:04:33 PM »

Quote from: JoanP on July 15, 2012, 08:24:30 AM

"In Great Expectations, Pip becomes an apprentice to Joe, the blacksmith. Miss Havisham generously paid Joe 25 pounds (several hundred dollars) so that he could afford to indenture Pip. The price to indenture your son to a master tradesmen is usually very expensive, because the master is expected to provide room and board for the child for seven years."

Quote from: Babi on July 16, 2012, 09:09:00 AM

A journeyman is someone who has finished their apprenticeship and
knows the trade, but is not yet a master. To be a master the journeyman
had to complete a 'masterpiece' and submit it to his trade guild. If they
approved it, he beame a 'master' craftsman.

I was trying to work out the details of Joe's business. Miss Havisham gets out of Joe that he always intended taking Pip as his apprentice, and didn't expect a premium for doing so. (He couldn't, of course, there was no money anywhere in the family except Joe's earnings.) She then gives him a premium of 25 pounds, which she says Pip has earned, but this is an unexpected bonus.

Joe also employs a journeyman, Orlick, paying him wages. We haven't seen any trace of Orlick up to now, but he's been around for a while, since Pip describes the stories Orlick told to scare him when he was small. So it's got to be a healthy business to support a family plus a single man.

JoanK · « **Reply #166 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:22:48 PM »

Hey, HATS, glad to see you.

JUDE: hope all goes well. Keep us posted.

" he became a 'master' craftsman". So Joe must already have been a master craftsman. And look how humble he is about his work: the forgery couldn't possibly make anything that was good enough for a present for Miss Havisham. Is this Joe, having been told all these years how worthless he is by his wife, and believing it? Now Pip is believing it too. How sad!

And is Dickens himself entirely free of believing it. Even while he holds Joe up as an example of solid worth, isn't he also looking down on him by making him so pitiable.

JoanP · « **Reply #167 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:26:10 AM »

Quote

"Even while he holds Joe up as an example of solid worth, isn't he also looking down on him by making him so pitiable?"

I've been thinking about your comment, JoanK - I don't think Dickens meant to make Joe an object of the reader's scorn - but rather to show Pip's adolescent callowness. But you ask an interesting question and I'm wondering how Dickens' readers at that time looked upon Joe. Does he represent all that is holding them back from advancement? Does he make them feel dissatisfied with their own state? I'll bet many of them can identify with Orlick's position.

Imagine you are Orlick...working at the forge all these years as Joe's assistant - He must be a journeyman by now. I think he's 25 at this time - with not much of a future, but at least he has this job. Now it appears that Pip will one day take his place and where will that leave Orlick?

Quote

"To be a master the journeyman had to complete a 'masterpiece' and submit it to his trade guild."

Somehow, I can't see Orlick working on a masterpiece, can you, Babi? A journeyman can be replaced, no?

I was completely surprised to learn that Mrs. Joe survived the attack...I thought she died immediately. Maybe that was the film version. I agree, Jonathan, Joe comes off as a real gentleman - throughout his wife's rampage and then after, as he cares for her when she becomes incapacitated.

Does Pip suspect that Orlick was his sister's attacker? Wouldn't it be near impossible to continue to work in the forge with him? Wouldn't it be even more difficult to leave Joe in the forge with Orlick and the care of his sister? If anyone comes off looking selfish, callous, of weak character - I think it's Pip. I guess we're supposed to excuse him because of his youth...

I don't think Dickens' modern reader will look down on Joe, for any reason. He behaves admirably throughout, even as Pip finds more and more to be ashamed of...

Frybabe · « **Reply #168 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:33:36 AM »

I really have to wonder why Mrs. Joe wanted the company of Orlick after the attack. It seems to have become a regular thing. I wonder if she remembered the argument they had before the attack. Her brain certainly got scrambled by the attack.

Babi · « **Reply #169 on:** July 17, 2012, 09:23:16 AM »

JONATHAN, I feel I can practically read Miss Havisham's mind re. Pip and the apprenticeship.
She is dispensing with his 'services', but in the tradition of 'noblesse oblige', not
to mention a sense of one's own generosity and general superiority, one rewards the
faithful servant. Am I being too cynical?
I agree. By nature, Joe is a true gentleman.

JUDE, I remember on reading those words, how I smiled at the "gallon of condescension".
There is something to be said for the technique of telling a story from the viewpoints of
both the young narrator and his mature future self. Young Pip is so full of himelf; one
has to grin.

JOANP, I would hope that Dickens' contemporary readers would recognize the goodness and
worth in Joe, behind all the rough manners and poor education. We always tend to make
judgments of people too quickly, on outward appearance.
From what I've seen of Orlick, I can't imagine him doing anything more than what he
must to get by. Pip, well he is behaving in a callous and selfish manner, but as you
stated, he has enough sense of it to be ashamed. I think we must be patient with him,
considering his youth and his obsession with Estella.

That is an excellent question, FRYBABE, and one that bothered me, too. I can only guess
that Mrs. Joe was berating, and perhaps 'rampaging' against Orlick when he attacked her.
She may remember something of that, and is now trying to placate him and keep a watch
on him, for fear he may attack the rest of her family. Does that sound like a reasonable
possiblity?

PatH · « **Reply #170 on:** July 17, 2012, 11:25:16 AM »

Orlick is certainly the logical suspect in Mrs. Joe's attack. Pip thought his sister would accuse him, but instead she tried to befriend him. Perhaps she wanted to make up for the quarrel, surely she didn't think he was her attacker.

A footnote in my book says that Dickens has given a clinically accurate description of the symptoms of trauma to the left temporoparietal region and 3rd and 6th cranial nerves. There are many examples of accurate medical observations in Dickens' books.

Jonathan · « **Reply #171 on:** July 17, 2012, 11:36:33 AM »

Good luck, Jude, with your eye surgery. May you soon be back with us, enjoying this marvellous narrative that Dickens hammered out in the smithy of his mind. Fine examples of the curious humor that Dickens works into his story. A backward glance, by an older, wiser Pip, at what the expectations were doing to him. Getting respectful stares from the cows in the pasture. Haha. (I remember getting them myself in my cowboy years.) So Pip was out in the marshes again, dreaming about London, and not sure of his luck. Or the reality of it.

Who struck down Mrs Joe? From behind, so she wouldn't recognize her attacker? An escaped convict from the Hulk? A maddened Orlick? More interesting to me, is why Dickens wants her out of the way?

Jonathan · « **Reply #172 on:** July 17, 2012, 11:44:37 AM »

Just read your thoughts, Pat, on who attacked Mrs Joe. No doubt the author does want us to think that a provoked Orlick did it. He's a very unhappy camper in the forge.

JoanK · « **Reply #173 on:** July 17, 2012, 02:42:10 PM »

Jonathan: you were a cowboy?!?

JoanP · « **Reply #174 on:** July 17, 2012, 03:26:24 PM »

The important point seems to be whether or not Pip thinks Orlick attacked his sister. If he does, then he should really reconsider going off to London, wouldn't you say? Dickens wants us to think so. He also makes it clear this creepy guy is sweet on Biddy. Pip does know about that -

Frybabe · « **Reply #175 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:34:12 AM »

One more comment about the cows staring. Mom use to tell us that when she was a school girl she would walk through a cow pasture from (or to) school. The cows always stood there munching their cuds and staring at her as she went. She was a bit intimidated by them.

Babi · « **Reply #176 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:40:34 AM »

Quote

What does Pumblechook want from Pip?

Pumblechook wants what he has always wanted. Self-advancement and recognition; association
with the company of the wealthy and prominent. Now that Pip has hopes of being a gentleman
of wealth, Pumblechook immediately proclaims himself Pip's boyhood mentor, supporter and
fondest friend. And tries to convince Pip of the same! The man is incredible.

Frybabe · « **Reply #177 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:52:50 AM »

Dickens is doing his best to make Orlick out to be a suspicious, jealous, and angry person who holds a grudge. Did you get the impression that was snooping on Pip (or Pip with Biddy) on more than one occasion?

I can readily see why Pip would think Miss Havisham was his benefactor. There were at least two occasions that pointed in that direction. Lawyers are supposed to be pretty closed mouthed about their clients and their dealings. Why would Jaggers tell Miss Havisham about Pip's good fortune? Did Miss H. tell him about her arrangement with Pip to visit regularly at some point? How much did he tell her? He gave no sign of recognizing Pip on his second meeting with him. So again I ask, why would Jaggers tell Miss H. about Pip's great expectations.

Ah, Pumblechook. Yes, he really jumped on the opportunity to convince Pip that he should invest his "expectations" in his seed and feed enterprise. I couldn't help but notice how everyone treated Pip deferentially as soon as they discovered he had come into "expectations" which apparently include money and property. Wonder where the property is, and is it land or another type of property?

Jonathan · « **Reply #178 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:58:07 AM »

JoanK, I don't want to leave you with a wrong impression. I thought 'cowboy' would look better than farm-boy. I do have a bit of Pip in me, I suppose. My experience with cows was limited to pastures, to and fro, watering, feeding, and milking, and shovelling you-know-what. Just enough to make me feel that Dickens got it right, about how a look from a cow could be interpreted. He spent some time around cows himself, obviously. To make it look like even nature was aware of Pip's good fortune, was a stroke of genius. Homer jazzed up the Iliad with that sort of thing. With Dickens it seemed to be part of a line of thought. Doesn't he have Mrs Joe thinking of her husband and Pip as a pair of calves a few pages earlier? Telling them so in fact.

Everybody is under suspicion. Even Pip. And reading between the lines, it seems he felt himself capable of it.

JoanP · « **Reply #179 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:32:43 PM »

Quote

"I thought 'cowboy' would look better than farm-boy. I do have a bit of Pip in me."

An interesting observation, Jonathan. Dickens has created a boy with strong feelings and a demanding conscience that will not let him be. Yet, more than once we see him wrestling with this conscience, fearing what others will think of him if they know the truth.
For example - he knows where that filed leg iron came from...his conscience tells him to come clean with Joe about that whole episode. (Pip feels he has provided the weapon.) BUT he feels the truth would alienate Joe - or worse, that Joe wouldn't believe him after the tales he told after that first visit to Satis House.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this struggle between conscience and truth didn't play a part as Pip grows older. Appearances seem to mean a lot to the boy. Even more than the possiblitiy of finding the assailant. This character trait could get him in trouble when he's older....

Quote

"Dickens is doing his best to make Orlick out to be a suspicious, jealous, and angry person who holds a grudge."

I agree with you, Frybabe. Pip's sister's assailant must have been Dolge Orlick. (is Dolge a strange name to you? Sounds like a villain's name - maybe a foreign name?) Who else would have done this? No one has a motive. Strangers are noticed in these parts. I think we can assume it was Orlick, but there is no evidence and he has an alibi.. Can we assume that Pip believes Orlick was the man?

JoanP · « **Reply #180 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:48:38 PM »

Quote

"Why would Jaggers tell Miss Havisham about Pip's good fortune?"

Frybabe, didn't you see Mr. Jaggers as a no-nonsense lawyer. Not one for small talk or gossip. He has no loyalty to his clients, except to do the work he is paid to do. I get a kick out of him... I suppose he is Miss Havisham's lawyer. Or is he Matthew Pocket's? I'm not sure of his connection to anyone at Satis House - but he was there, Pip saw him there. If he informed Miss H. of Pip's "expectations" I am sure there was a reason for it - a reason relating to Pip's leaving for London.

PatH · « **Reply #181 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:31:37 PM »

Since Miss Havisham's relative, Matthew Pocket, is to be Pip's tutor, it would seem natural for Mr. Jaggers to tell Miss H. at least enough for her to realize how this could happen, that Pip would have enough money to do this.

Pip's overactive conscience interests me. He feels guilty about everything, with or without a real reason for guilt.

JoanP · « **Reply #182 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:54:19 PM »

But Pat, he doesn't do what he needs to do to clear his conscience...and get things off his chest. This could mean trouble ahead, don't you think?

What do you think of him as a judge of character - or is it too early, is he too young to ask that?

JoanK · « **Reply #183 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:29:17 PM »

Here, too, Dickens provides us with a mystery to solve as in the other two Dickens books we read. If Dickens were writing today, he would be a mystery writer, no doubt about it!

JONATHAN: if you took care of cows, you're a cowboy in my book. Yeehaw!

bookad · « **Reply #184 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:16:11 AM »

from chapter XVIII--the book title is mentioned so many times 'Great Expectations'....which feels like it could read 'coming into money' or 'sudden wealth'....and am not sure I like the title he used for the book---I'd be interested to know how many and what were the alternatives he thought of for titles for this book, if any

sometimes I chose a book based on its title; and I don't think I would have chosen this book based on its title

also sometime around the time period of this book, it seems I have come across books with titles & chapter titles that were a sentence long and seemed to be a synopsis of the book or chapter ...as I guess 'Great Expectations' is a sort of synopsis of the book but extremely brief

just my mundane thoughts for the day on this book

Deb

Babi · « **Reply #185 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:23:43 AM »

Appearances do mean a lot to Pip, now, JOANP. It was not something he would notice
before meeting the people at Satis House. For the first time he has the means of comparison,
and feels ashamed of the wide differences. Really, that exposure to a very different way
of life is key to everything that happens in this story.
I can well understand Pip's 'overactive' conscience. After all, he is surrounded by
people who are constantly pointing out his deficiencies and warning him of dire outcomes
for his failings.
Judgment? Quite poor, I would say, particularly in regard to his view of Biddy. But then,
that sounds very much like the boy-girl sort of interaction common at their age. Pips is not
stupid, by any means. Good judgment only develops fully, ..if at all...at a later stage of
development. Our of one's teens, at least.

JoanP · « **Reply #186 on:** July 19, 2012, 10:07:48 AM »

Deb, remember when we were discussing Bleak House, we found that Dickens kept his plans for plot and characters on blue sheets of paper - with a list of titles he was considering as he wrote. I wouldn't be surprised if he kept such notes for Great Expectations. I'll hunt around - it would be interesting to know if he considered other titles...

To tell the truth, I was surprised that anyone had expectations of getting ahead at this time. Did Pip have any such expectations until he met Estella? Is there a difference between "expectations" and "GREAT expectations"?
I thought that Biddy had "expectations' of a future with Pip. Little does she know she has competition for his affection. I feel so badly for Biddy - I can relate to how she feels. But that's a whole other story...

Do you think Pip was aware how much Biddy cared for him, Babi? Is this just a teen crush? How old would you say Pip and Biddy are at this time? Painful as he made his goodbyes to Biddy and Joe, wasn't it? Do you think he'll miss them as they will miss him? Do you think he'll ever return? It seems there can be no going back once of the road to a future of Great Expectations...

Frybabe · « **Reply #187 on:** July 19, 2012, 10:34:14 AM »

Deb, what I wonder is if "great expectations" was a common phrase used back then to denote a future inheritance, trust, or acquisition of other lucrative contracts or properties. It seems a loose term, since one can have great expectations of having a winning bet, receiving a marriage proposal, or landing a job, for instance. Expectations aren't guarantees, at least not these days.

PatH · « **Reply #188 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:09:41 AM »

A footnote in my book says that "great expectations" was indeed a common phrase at the time. It doesn't make it clear, but I have the impression that it would mean money or property.

My book also says that Dickens picked the title very early in the course of writing the book.

Quote from: Frybabe on July 19, 2012, 10:34:14 AM

Expectations aren't guarantees, at least not these days.

Yes, and I wonder a bit at how completely everyone accepts the truth of Mr. Jaggers' statements. He doesn't give any specific detail, or proof of his story, doesn't suggest an amount for the "expectation". He just hands Pip twenty guineas and says "meet me in London in a week".

Frybabe · « **Reply #189 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:00:52 PM »

I did find one comment in my search that it was a phrase often used by young men of little means as a way of saving face, especially in contacts with more wealth acquaintances. In Pip's case, he was able to back up the phrase with real coin given in advance. Would he have gotten the same attention at the tailor's and other shops if he hadn't brought out real money to back up his statement?

PatH · « **Reply #190 on:** July 19, 2012, 02:38:25 PM »

I'm sure he wouldn't have, Frybabe. They all knew the family didn't have money.

JoanP · « **Reply #191 on:** July 20, 2012, 07:49:49 AM »

Found it! Dickens' original manuscript for Great Expectations has been on exhibit since 1868 in the Wisbech and Fenland Museum, Cambridgeshire, one of the oldest museums in the UK . You might remember how he struggled with the title for "Bleak House" all through the writing of that novel, changing the title until the very end. I love the way he wrote and edited his manuscripts. It takes a devoted scholar of his work to read the crossouts and changes. Here's from the opening page of Great Expectations... {note the book title at the top of the page}:

Quote

"My book also says that Dickens picked the title very early in the course of writing the book." PatH

Dickens had no problem changing the title of Great Expectations once he began to write. Here's an exerpt from a letter in Dickens' own words:
Last week I got to work on the new story. I had previously very carefully considered the state and prospects of All the Year Round, and, the more I considered them, the less hope Isaw of being able to get back, now, to the profit of a separate publication in the old 20numbers.

However I worked on, knowing that what I was doing would run into another groove; and I called a council of war at the office on Tuesday. It was perfectly clear that the one thing to be done was, for me to strike in. I have therefore decided to begin the story as ofthe length of the Tale of Two Cities on the first of December -- begin publishing, that is. I
must make the most I can out of the book. You shall have the first two or three weekly parts to-morrow. The name is GREAT EXPECTATIONS. I think a good name?"

JoanP · « **Reply #192 on:** July 20, 2012, 08:16:58 AM »

I've been thinking of one of the questions from above -

"Dickens describes Pip's ambitions very vividly. Does this relate to Dickens' own life?"
Did Dickens himself have Great Expectations? In my search for the original GE manuscript, I came across an interesting essay on the autobiographical nature of Great Expectations - you might find it of interest...

Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations

“The best autobiographical evocations of nineteenth-century boyhood, in its full imaginative complexity, are to be found in David Copperfield and Great Expectations " (54). Most scholars would agree that these Dickens works are his most autobiographical."

It was the title of the article that got to me...the whole idea of "fictional autobiography" is intriguing, isn't it? Clearly there are elements of Dickens own experience...but we can't assume the whole novel is an autobiography, though autobiographical in part.

"It is impossible to read Great Expectations without sensing Dickens's presence in the book, without being aware that in portraying and judging Pip he is giving us a glimpse of a younger self. In it he explores and perhaps exorcises the sense of guilt and shame that had haunted him all his life, as he rose from humble beginnings to success and wealth and fame."

Babi · « **Reply #193 on:** July 20, 2012, 08:38:43 AM »

JOANP, I think Pip will have times when he missed them. He'll also find it painful to
remember how pleased he was to leave them, but it won't change how glad he is to have this opportunity. How would you feel if someone told you that all your dreams could be fulfilled?
I can't imagine him never returning, but now that he is ashamed of his family and
home, any visit is bound to be awkward.
Biddy has more good sense than Pip and is more mature. I'm sure she is hurt by Pip's
attitude, but she sees him clearly and knows what to expect. When it becomes clear that she doesn't believe Pip will keep his promise to keep in touch and visit often, I believe her.

I think I would have to believe Jaggers, PAT. He is hardly likely to be handing out money from his own pocket!

Egads! Surely someone made a clean copy of that manuscript before it went to the
printers!

PatH · « **Reply #194 on:** July 20, 2012, 01:42:52 PM »

Thanks for that very interesting essay, JoanP. It reinforces or explains some things I was feeling. Pip's guilt feelings about everything are so well described that it's not surprising to learn they mirror Dickens' own feelings. And the frantic nature of his longing to rise to a better station in the world reminds me of David Copperfield, and Dickens' own feelings about having to work as a child.

JoanK · « **Reply #195 on:** July 20, 2012, 03:49:26 PM »

"In it he explores and perhaps exorcises the sense of guilt and shame that had haunted him all his life, as he rose from humble beginnings to success and wealth and fame."

Two sources of guilt: one in feeling that he is not worthy of being this new person, and two guilt for feeling that shame in his background and the people who raised him.

Anyone who moves from one walk of life to another must deal with having, in a sense, two identities. It makes me think of the way my father, coming from a poor uneducated working class family into a scholarly middle-class environment handled it. Quite differently from Pip -- he would make fun of middle class pretensions.

An interesting literary example is Mark Twain. He used his Midwestern folksiness to become the darling of the efite elite Eastern intelligensia.

These are American examples. I don't think that would have worked in England. But surely Dickens sense of guilt explains why he tried so hard to present the situation of the poor to his readers.

Jonathan · « **Reply #196 on:** July 20, 2012, 05:41:53 PM »

What a thought-provoking essay re the autobiographical element in Great Expectations.

'Pip...a glimpse of a younger self.'

It was interesting to read that Dickens reread David Copperfield so as not to repeat himself in Great Expectations. That would seem like confirmation of the auto-bio theory. I can think of several objections to that. I can't see Dickens feeling guilty about anything. He was too successful for that. And Dickens, I believe, would never have wanted his readers to think that he had it handed to him, like Pip. Dickens was an ambitious little guy and did it his way. All the way.

Would you trust Dickens with your life? He would make it interesting. But after seeing what he did with his friend Leigh Hunt as Skimpole in Bleak House, I just don't believe his honesty. Pip's great expectations. Skimpole's just desserts. Both were getting what they asked for.

'Dickens mainly wrote about orphans because he felt abandoned by his parents as a child.'

That's from Huang's essay. He's on to something there but leaving truth behind. My opinion. It was Dickens's Dad who told him he could be living in Gad's Hill someday if he applied himself. His mother taught him to read.

PatH · « **Reply #197 on:** July 21, 2012, 11:16:55 AM »

Today's the last day for this section, though, as always, we can continue talking about it as much as we please. What haven't we talked about? Pip's churned up feelings as he leaves for London? Joe's sense of his own strengths and weaknesses?

JoanP · « **Reply #198 on:** July 21, 2012, 11:52:12 AM »

I'd like to pursue the idea of "fictional autobiography" a bit more - the term sees to be oxymoronic, doesn't it? Jonathan writes, "I can't see Dickens feeling guilty about anything. I just don't believe his honesty."

I was intrigued at this:

Quote

"Shortly before he began to write Great Expectations , Dickens wrote a fragment of an autobiography, which he kept to himself. A short time later he sorted through, re-read, and burnt many personal letters, and also re-read David Copperfield, perhaps the most overtly autobiographical (in a psychological or a symbolic sense) of all his novels."

Don't you wish the "fragment of an autobiography" had been preserved? The idea of Dickens burning all his personal letters and papers - it's almost as if he knows that there will be interest in his personal autobiography and is making sure that no one gets into that. I guess that's understandable.

I think we need to consider Great Expectations for what it is...fiction - with only nuances of autobiographical information. Wouldn't you like to be a published author? You could rewrite your life story, your autobiography so that your very worst traits are explained away - or totally eliminated. There is some truth here, of course. But this is not a complete portrait of Dickens. It is Pip's story.

Also from that essay on "Fictional Autobiography"

"In Great Expectations , we could trace what Dickens thought about his life and the people around him because it contains so many autobiographical elements. But what about the elements he does not touch upon?"

That was my thought - Pip is motivated by desire for Estella. Was there such a woman in Dickens' young life? You don't hear about her in Dickens' biographies. But you do hear of his lifelong interest/passion for young, very young maidens - to the very end of his life when he left his wife, the mother of his ten children, for the much younger actress. Do you remember his passion for his wife's younger sister?

Mary Hogarth died in DIckens' home at the age of 17 - Dickens is said to have removed a ring from her lifeless fingers and wore it in her memory for his entire life - wrote of her to his confidant John Forster as "that spirit which directs my life." From that time on Dickens had a passion for young women - both in his real like and his fiction. Is this unattainable, desirable young woman Estella in Great Expectations?

JoanP · « **Reply #199 on:** July 21, 2012, 12:23:13 PM »

"His mother taught him to read." Jonathan, I can believe that, but I wonder if the article had it right about her domination in that household -

Quote

"Dickens was forced to labor at Warren's Blacking Factory, which was a damaging psychological experience in itself, but his mother compounded the injury when she insisted that he continue working there, even after the debtor's prison released his father."

If that is the truth, then I can see the resemblance between Dickens' mother and Pip's sister.

Quote

"Mrs. Joe wore the pants in the household, while Joe serves as an effete and effeminate child-like figure. Pip never refers to his sister by her given name; she always retains the masculine name of her husband, an indication that she has taken over much more than masculinity from Joe. Dickens never fully forgave his parents, and they would appear as characters in unflattering incarnations within his works. "

JoanK, it seems to be that Dickens is doing much as your dad did - holding up the Middle Class, such as Pumblechook for example - for mockery. He knows how to make these silly people squirm with his exaggerations of their behavior. When he believed Pip was a nobody, he fed him water-ed down milk and bread crumbs. When it became clear that Pip was to be someone of importance, the excessive hand-shaking, the wine, the meal itself, fit for a royal - liver wing, no less!

I've been wondering why Dickens felt the need to remove Mrs. Joe from the story - she was a motivating force in Pip's life, wasn't she? I find it unsettling to see her sitting there laughing and talking with Orlick - a shadow of her former self. Would she have been an obstacle in Pip's plans for the future? I don't think so. So what was gained by the attack?

There's a question about the Bow Street Runners in the heading - I was going to try to find why they were ineffective in their investigation - and came across this Bow Street Runners game - which used up my computer time for this morning...

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