GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX VOLUME 2 July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV)

Chapter I (XX)

1.  Were London and Mr. Jaggers' law offices  anything like what Pip expected?  Is he disappointed?  What prompted him to ask if London is a very wicked place?

2.  What seems to be the deciding factor in  Jaggers' acceptance of new clients?  What does he think of Pip's ability to handle the liberal allowance he is to receive?  Do you think Jaggers is likely to  provide Pip guidance if the need arises?


Chapter II (XXI)

1.  Is Pip to room in town in the dingy Barnard's Inn with the young man he fought with at Miss Havisham's?  
 Why is young Pocket not living with his family five miles away in Hammersmith?  Why is he here in London in this run-down place?  

2. What does Pip think of Herbert's expectations?  Do you see them as fast friends in the future?  
 

Chapter III (XXII)

1.  How does Herbert explain his presence at Satis House the day of the fight?  Was he also smitten with  Estella?

2.  What does he tell Pip of Miss Havisham's history?  Why was Herbert's father banned from Satis House? Is that half-brother and fiance still alive?  

3.  The Pocket children, Herbert's young siblings, are described as "tumbling up" rather than growing up.  Who is the head of this household? Are you familiar with Dickens'  large family descriptions?


Chapter IV  (XXIII)

1.  Do you see a contrast between young Belinda Pocket's expectations for marriage and Estella's?

2. How do the two young men, also Matthew Pocket's pupils, differ from Pip in their expectations for the future? How has Dickens described them?  Do you see either of them becoming Pip's friends?
  


Chapter V  (XXIV)

1. Wemmick tells Pip Jaggers "always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught."  Do you get the feeling that he is warning Pip to beware of Jaggers?

2.  When Pip observes Jaggers in court, what does he conclude about his abilities?  Who were more intimidated by Jaggers, the thieves or the bench?  Where do Wemmick's  gifts, his "portable property come from?

  

Chapter VI  (XXV)

1.  Pip seems to have enemies in London, without knowing it.  Why should Mrs. Pocket's sister, Camilla hate Pip?

2.  What do you suppose Pip's newly-acquired expensive habits are?  Who do you count as Pip's friends in London?  What do you think of Jaggers' clerk, Mr. Wemmick? A friend?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;  Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856;    Map of London 1851

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[JoanP]

Does anyone remember  who Sarah is?  Her relationship to Matthew Pocket, who is to be Pip's tutor in London?  She seems to work at Satis House - and when Pip goes to say goodbye to Miss H., it is Sarah Pocket who is stunned into silence at Pip's appearance and good fortune.

[Frybabe]

Do you think so PatH? I didn't read the whole thing, just what it had to say about the Pockets and their relationship to Ms. H. which is still somewhat confusing.

I removed the post.

[PatH]

Thanks, Frybabe, I removed my warning too.

[PatH]

The Bow Street Runners are old friends to some of us mystery story nuts.  They were London's first professional police force, founded in 1749 by novelist Henry Fielding, in his capacity as a magistrate.  Fielding was succeeded by his brother John, also a magistrate, and incidentally blind, who improved the force.  John Fielding is featured in a very fine series of historical detective stories by Bruce Alexander.

Following the Metropolitan Police Act of 1829, a new police force was founded by Sir Robert Peel, nicknamed "Peelers".  The Bow Street Runners were disbanded in 1839.

A footnote in my book says that Dickens had nothing but contempt for the Runners, but greatly admired the Peelers.

[Babi]

  Interesting quotes, JOANP. I really can't see Joe as effete or effeminate, though. Not
in the least. Childlike, perhaps, to some degree; there is an innocence about him. So I
would tend to take as suspect that commentators opinion.
 Possibly Mrs. Joe's death served a dual purpose. One, to bring Pip home and remind him of his oligations there, and secondly, to establish Orlick as a suspicious and probably violent person.

 Some interesting questions for this new section, as usual. Going to the big city for
the first time. I have the vague impression that small town folk genrally considered the
'big city' as a wicked place. A young boy going there alone would, in any case, probably
be wise to be wary and cautious.
  From what we've seen of Jagger so far, I suspect he would advise Pip only in those
matters that fell within what he perceived as his contract. Handle the finances, make the necessary arrangements, etc. Personal advice seems to be limited to "Don't ask!"

 

[JoanP]

This is what I think makes these group discussions so interesting. PatH.  Not being familiar with the Bow Street Runners, all that went right over my head when I was reading it myself.  I guess I did conclude that there was not much of an investigation into Mrs. Gargery's attack - and wondered why.  This was a small villiage and the attack nearly killed her.  To call off the investigation seemed rather irresponsible.

Am I right to conclude that the Bow Street Runners were similar to the Guardian Angels - not a regular police force, but a group of volunteers that do their best to patrol the streets?   .
 
The formation of the London Metropolitan Police force by Sir Robert Peel in 1829 brought an end to their activities.

So where was the local police force during the investigation? Was there one?

If the Bow Street Runners were disbanded in 1839  and the new police force established in1829, and Dickens wrote Great Expectations in 1860, do you think that Dickens is emphasizing the fact that the narrator is looking back in time to the days before there was an established police force, PatH? Which would explain why the attacker was not apprehended...

Pip's observation:
"The Constables, and the Bow Street men from London—for, this happened in the days of the extinct red-waistcoated police—were about the house for a week or two, and did pretty much what I have heard and read of like authorities doing in other such cases. They took up several obviously wrong people, and they ran their heads very hard against wrong ideas, and persisted in trying to fit the circumstances to the ideas, instead of trying to extract ideas from the circumstances.  "

So Pip is aware that the attacker is out there somewhere - and yet seems to not give a second thought to leaving his sister behind - his sister who survived the attack and might be able to identify her attacker if he returns.   Does Pip believe the attacker was Orlick?  We know he believes Orlick is sweet on Biddy.  What does this tell us about Pip's desire to go off to London?
About Biddy - Pip couldn't even tell Biddy that he was going to London.  Left it up to Joe to tell her.  Doesn't this say that he is aware of her feelings for him - but that he doesn't want to be talked out of it, by anyone?
Let's remember these things about young Pip...

[JoanP]

Can you believe it?  We are moving on to the second of three Volumes of the published book version of Great Expectations?  What do you think of the pace?  Are you with us?  Are we moving too fast - too slow?  Please let us know what you think - we can always adjust.

The first printed versions appeared in three separate volumes.  Each of the volumes began with Chapter I.  Some editions are numbered just as the original three editions were numbered - while others are numbered beginning with CHapter I all the way through  from I - LIX.  So there is no confusion we've tried to accomodate the differences by including both forms of numbering the chapters   For example, this week we will be discussing the first six chapters of the second volume - on the schedule in the heading, the chapter numbers will appear like this - Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV)

How are your Roman numbers?

[JoanP]

Babi started us off this morning with Pip's coach ride to London.  I forgave his sneaking out without goodbyes to his loved ones, when I saw him struggling with the idea of getting off the coach and running back for proper goodbyes at each stop.  Even if he didn't do it, at least that indicated he had feelings...

By the time you finish reading Dickens, you have a good idea of what the city was like in the mid 19th century.  "An open sewer of filth, vice and corruption."
Does anyone have an idea WHEN London streets were cleaned up?  Was it a gradual process?   It sure doesn't sound like a tourist destination, does it?  

[Frybabe]

Here is an answer to your question JoanP. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml  The article is about Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works that was created in 1856 to address the greatly increasing population of London and the need to organize public works into a unified effort across the entire city.

[PatH]

That's a very interesting article, Frybabe.  So the rapidly increasing population made an already stinky, unhealthy situation worse.  I wonder if London was better or worse than other large cities of the time.  You may remember the section in Bleak House describing the unhealthy air from the slums spreading to the wealthier sections of London.

Bazalgette seems to have made a remarkable improvement.

[JoanP]

Thanks for the article, Fry.  Will keep it in the heading for rereading.  From the dates provided in the article, Pip has arrived in London before the sewer network was complete, the "big Stink" has been eliminated.  

PatH - there is so much here that brings Bleak House   to mind - as if these dark and smelly streets around the court house on Holborn Hill are our old stomping grounds.  Remember Esther's first impressions of London and how happy she was to get out of the city to Bleak House?  I remember too the unhealthy slums, and how near they were to the homes of the wealthy.    Two powerful lawyers are present too - Tulkinghorn and Jaggers.  Do you see any resemblance between these two?  They must have run into one another in Court, don't you think?

I'm not sure what to think of Mr. Jaggers.  On the one hand, he seems to be a man without empathy or concern for any of his clients.  On the other, he seems to extend himself to the boy, almost - almost protective.
I'm trying to figure out who made the arrangement for Pip to live with Herbert Pocket in Barnard's Inn?   Do you think it was Jaggers?  If not, then who?
And what is Herbert Pocket doing in such a place?  

[Babi]

 No, the Bow Street Runners were part of the police force, considered the 'elite' group.
They kind of faded away as police training produced a more competent rank and file. There
was no such thing as 'forensics' in those days, and unless there was an escaped convict
in the area, the investigation of the attack on Mrs. Joe would have come to a dead end
without witnesses or the testimony of the victim.
  Yes, Jaggers made the arrangement for Pip's studies with Mr. Pocket and placed him
with Herbert to have his country boy manners citified. Given their relationship to Miss
Havisham, I would guess that is connection for Jaggers.
  Herbert is a gentleman, but a poor one. Bernard's Inn is what he can afford, while he
'looks about' for future prospects.


   My roman numbers are excellent. I frequently run across them in crossword puzzles.
Half of mmxii is mvi. 

[Jonathan]

So these two young men meet again. Pip and the 'pale young gentleman', Herbert Pocket. The latter, as Babi points out, enthusiastic about his 'future prospects', and Pip already enjoying and  sure of his expectations. Take note of the mutual respect of a budding relationship.

Thanks, Frybabe, for the link to Joseph Bazalgette and the great London cleanup. Monentous timing. A generation earlier and world literature would not have been enriched with these tales of Dickens's London. A strange milieu, in which Pip dreams about becoming a gentleman.

One of us has pointed out Dickens's great talent as a mystery writer. Indeed! Mysteries by the dozen. Why, as Frybabe asked, does lawyer Jaggers inform Miss Havisham about Pip's good fortune? Can't guess it. But being privy to all her affairs Jaggers would know she is not Pip's patron. It must be someone else.  GE, like Bleak House, strikes me more like a jigzaw puzzle than a conventional mystery. New and old pieces lying about waiting to be interlocked.

[PatH]

Jaggers is an interesting contrast to Tulkinghorn in Bleak House.  Tulkinghorn may be fairly heartless, but he is loyal to the interests of his client (at least as he sees them).  He has standards, admittedly cold and unfeeling ones, and he sticks to them.

Jaggers, on the other hand, is totally out for the money.  He won't take a client unless he's paid first.  He seems to have the reputation of winning cases, but this may be less through legal ability than through bullying, dishonest witnesses, cooking evidence, and maybe bribery.

I see we are going to see him on his home ground in the next section; maybe he'll become clearer.

[JoanP]

Both men seem to be consumed with their work.  Both seem to avoidmuch human contact, living alone, no family life that we can see.  As you say, Pat, Tulkinghorn was loyal to Sir Leicester Dedlock - and the family name.  Do you think that Jaggers might have such allegiance to one of his clients? The client who is sponsoring Pip.  It's interesting to me that Jaggers is referred to as Pip's "guardian."  What are the implications of that?  Is he the Guardian for anyone else?  Does he regard Pip as a "client" or something more?

[JoanP]

"Take note of the mutual respect of a budding relationship."

    I'm not sure that Pip respects Herbert's abilities,as much as he likes and trusts him, Jonathan.  More than once he lets us know that Herbert doesn't have what it takes to advance in the world, even though he has big plans and high hopes.  

The Pockets are an interesting family, aren't they?   Matthew Pocket is to be Pip's tutor...his son is Herbert Pocket, the fair young man Pip fought with when a young boy.  Do you think that Herbert was as smitten with Estella's beauty as Pip was?  
I have a difficult time thinking of Herbert as Belinda Pocket's son.  In fact, it is difficult to think of her as anyone's mother.  We still don't know who Sarah Pocket is, do we?  Herbert's Grandma?  What is she doing at Satis House?    If Matthew Pocket is  Miss Havisham's cousin, what is Sarah Pocket's relationship to her?  So many questions... "a jigzaw puzzle with new and old pieces lying about waiting to be interlocked."  Love that  image, Jonathan.

[JudeS]

I'm still recovering from the cataract surgery but I can read and write once again.
I've read your posts and the chapters for this week but I feel detached from you all. Because I had that break I developed some different ideas while marveling at some of the best Dicken's writing I have experienced.
The first paragraph of chapter II we have a perfect description of a character done in an original way-simply brilliant!
Then Pip's first impressions of London...not the golden city on the hill he had imagined.

Why don't you folks like Jaggers?
In the list of characters I referred to previously this is what they say.
Mr. Jaggers, a prominent London lawyer who represents the interests of diverse clients both criminal and civil. He represents Pip's benefaactor and is Miss Havisham's lawyer as well. By the end of the story , his law practice is the common element that brushes many of the characters.
So let's wait to judge him.

I wrote about Sara Pocket previously as well.  She is "a dry brown corrugated old woman, with a small face that might have been made out of walnut shells and a large mouth like a cats without the whiskers". Another aging relative of Miss Havisham who is only interested in her money.

What I found horrible was Belinda and her personality and attitude towards her children, towards her husband and towards life in general.Was Dickens ,in a way, attacking his own wife/

Perhaps, but wether or not he was has little or no bearing on his amazing talents to engage us in a story with such real characters.  His literary genius is breathtaking.Who am I to judge his personal life and relationships? We aren't here as a board of morality but as a literary group working to put together the pieces of GE as they are handed to us by their author. 

[PatH]

When Herbert Pocket meets Pip, he doesn't like to call him Philip, and suggests that since Pip has been a blacksmith, and they are harmonious, he should call Pip Handel, after Handel's Harmonious Blacksmith.  This is one of the standard pieces given to (or inflicted upon) piano students, and led me to a youtube listening session.  Non-enthusiasts can just not click on any of my links.

Here's Sviatoslav Richter--sorry about the visuals, but I liked the performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16rBGUj3fY&feature=related

For followers of Don Reid's music conversation on our sister site: Alfred Cortot was listed as one of the world's 10 best pianists, and I, at least, had never heard of him, but here he is, and very good too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJ_awZD1ig&feature=related

[PatH]

Judy, I'm glad you're all right.  I had cataract surgery a few years ago, and aside from a gluey recuperation, it was great, and I can now see better than I could since I was 10.  Your vision goes in and out a bit before it settles down, but then you're all set.

Who am I to judge his personal life and relationships? We aren't here as a board of morality but as a literary group working to put together the pieces of GE as they are handed to us by their author. 

In George Orwell's essay about Dickens he points out that Dickens' personal life doesn't invalidate his work any more than the second best bed invalidates Shakespeare.

[Frybabe]

I googled Dicken's relationships and found this brief article. Read the bottom two paragraphs.
http://www.dickens-and-london.com/Women.htm

[Babi]

 It had occurred to me, too, JUDE, that the detached Mrs. Pocket might be a take-off on
Dicken's wife. I know next to nothing about her, but I did note that her sister seemed to
be the one taking care of house and family.  Of course, with that many children, Mrs.
Dickens may have been too worn out to do much. 

 Enjoyed those paintings, FRYBABE. The Waterhouse was the only one I had seen before.
As to the moral question, it makes sense to judge genius by what it produces for our
admiration. The morality is a personal issue and, imo, no more my business than the
overly invaded private lives of our 'celebrities'.
  I would say the only time another person's morality and integrity need to be known, is
when they are seeking, or placed, in a position of public responsibility.

[JoanK]

JUDE: so glad you're back! Sadly, I learned a long time ago not to use people whose art or accomplishments I admire as personal models.

But his attitude toward women in his personal life does make me look more closely at the women in his novels to see what kind of woman he admires. Esther in Bleak House? Estella is quite different: makes me wonder if she's the heroine after all?

[JoanP]

I too, was happy to see you on the road to recovery Jude.  We've missed you and your thoughtful posts on Dickens" writing.  It's easy to get lost in his intricate, carefully constructed plots and over look the way he tells the story.

"Who am I to judge his personal life and relationships?"  Dickens himself seems to find much in his personal life to apologize for in these novels - or to defend.  I find it impossible to separate the two.  I don't think we are judging him, or invalidating his work as much as we are observing him and how he injected his own life and experience into his  novels.

[PatH]

I agree that the personal life of a writer is of limited relevance to his work; it only matters if it can help us to understand his writings, and moral judgements aren't necessary.

Dickens' wife was a poor housekeeper, and that bugged him, so no doubt Mrs. Pocket is in part a take-off on her.  It's hard to believe anyone could be so completely oblivious, and even harder to believe that none of the children has yet managed to kill itself accidentally.

[JoanP]

I didn't get the impression that we were judging, or condemning  or attempting to invalidate Dickens fiction in any way.  You can't help  recognizing well-known events in his own life that found their way into his writing...

Dickens seems to repeat the theme of the poor mother, overwhelmed with her large family - and the helpless father who can do nothing to improve the situation. Weren't you reminded of the Jellyby family in Bleak House when reading of the Pockets?  

I came across this comment which Dickens wrote to a friend in a letter:
"I begin to count the children incorrectly, they are so many; and to find fresh ones coming down to dinner in a perfect procession and I thought there were no more."  Matthew Pocket?
Catherine Hogarth Dickens

Another quote from a letter found in the above link:
Dickens wrote to Angela Burdett-Coutts about his marriage to Catherine: "We have been virtually separated for a long time. We must put a wider space between us now, than can be found in one house... If the children loved her, or ever had loved her, this severance would have been a far easier thing than it is. But she has never attached one of them to herself, never played with them in their infancy, never attracted their confidence as they have grown older, never presented herself before them in the aspect of a mother."   This reference to Catherine Dickens as a mother  describes Mrs.  Jellyby and Belinda Pocket too, doesn't it? -

An interesting article, Fry.  The line that got my attention - "My father did not understand women."  Do you agree with that - from his portrayal of women in his novels?




 

[Jonathan]

What a strange man. What a strange marriage. Some of it must have found its way into his stories. My sympathy is all with Catherine. Strange that she left no record of her life with Charles. Or did she? Did Dickens really see a model in her for some of the dysfunctional mothers in his fictions? Not likely, judging by several quotes in Joan's link to CHD. Here's one:

Henry Morley met Catherine in the late 1840s, ten years into the marriage:

"One sees in five minutes that she loves her husband and her children, and has a warm heart for anybody who won't be satirical, but meet her on her own good natured footing. We were capital friends at once, and had abundant talk together."

The Hogarths are also described as being a cut above the Dickenses, socially. Perhaps Catherine was Charles's Estella. Until he landed on his feet.

I seem to remember reading that Herbert Pocket wasn't overwhelmed by Estella, as Pip was. But then, being the 'young gentleman'. he didn't get the supercilious treatment from her.

[JudeS]

PAT
THANK YOU for that moment in memory, listening to the Vinyl Record of Alfred Cortat playing Handel on an old "Victrola" record with the dog listening to his master's voice.  I was familiar with the melody but not the name of the piece and ddn't attach it to the Handel as a name for Pip.
I was thinking more of the slang NY word in which a handle means monicker or name.
Nice to know that the composer Handel wormed himself into Dicken's book.

I also had a moment of warmth when our hero Pip seeing all the  London horses wished that Joe could be there to get the business of shoeing them. That also answered a query of mine relating to the great portrait by Turner of the Blacksmith. I wondered if in Joe's shop shoeing horses was still a part of the Blacksmith's profession.
Guess it was.

Thank you all for the good wishes on my recovery.

 

[Babi]

Absolutely, JOANP. I was reminded of the Jellyby's more than once. That family image seems
to have been a sore point with Dickens, one to which he often returned.
 
  I would think it fairly evident that Drummle will never be a friend. Really unpleasant
character. He will no doubt continue to play the role of thorn in Pip's side. The other
young fellow seems pleasant enough, tho. sort of 'minor key'.
  Wemmick is still a question mark. He seems rather stiff and perfectly 'correct' in his
duties.

[JudeS]

Here are some interesting facts regarding GE:

There were ten movie versions of the book . The first in1917 and the last in 2012.

There were five TV versions of the story. The first in 1953 and the last in 2011.

There have been two stage versions of the book. One serious and theo other transferred into a musical,

There have been two spin off movies . Both based on the convict Magwitch.

I saw the 1946 flm version (known as the most celebrated film version). It scared the living daylights out of me. I still remember the frightening scenes on the moor with the convict.

So Dickens and GE lives on and influences and teached generation after generation about what it's like to be a poor boy with Great Expectations and how that may turn out in the end.

[Jonathan]

That's an amazing record, Jude. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I share your enthusiasm for Dickens. Just amazing what he does with life's little dramas. Where did he get all the inspiration? Partly, no doubt, from his own experience. The wild, uproarious family scenes must have been familiar, with the noisy kids distracting him from his writing. Blaming the 'problem' on Mom is a cheap shot in my opinion. But I do believe he wanted us to see some humor in the domestic circus.

I don't dislike Jaggers. As with children, so with lawyers. Go where the drama is. And where more likely than in a lawyer's practice?

Will Mathew Pocket succeed in making gentlemen out of  Pip, Drummle, and Shortstop? Pip is a quick study, but those other two...I have my doubts. I am surprised that Pip so readily agreed to being called Handel. I would have thought that he would be sensitive about being constantly reminded of his blackksmithing days.

What can we make of all those trophies in Jagger's chambers? The heads on the wall, the rings on Wemmick's fingers, etc? Or of Jagger's courtroom manner? Wilder than anything in Belinda's parlour.

[Jonathan]

Here's something interesting. A new book about the Bow Street Runners and the policing  of London, 1750-1840. The First English Detectives, by J. M. Beattie. A review in TLS, June 15, 2012, explains why Dickens may have been unhappy with the Runners. They 'relied on a catch 'em and hang 'em philosophy of policing', while the Peelers 'aimed instead to prevent crime by the collection of intelligence that came from a constant surveillance of the streets.'

[JoanP]

Thanks for that link to those recordings, PatH - it brings up Dickens musical background.  I read somewhere that both Dickens and his sister played instruments - maybe it was a cello Dickens played (maybe not)...his sister wrote music.  The two performed for the family.  I have no idea when this took place - perhaps when he was younger - before his father went to prison for not paying his debts - for those music lessons.  Dickens loved music - as an adult.  Opera especially.
An interesting question, Jonathan - "I am surprised that Pip so readily agreed to being called Handel. I would have thought that he would be sensitive about being constantly reminded of his blackksmithing days."   Maybe he knows of the great Handel and doesn't think many know of the Blacksmith connection.  I don't know.

Jude, a trivia question for you - what was the name of that RCA Victor dog?

[JoanP]

So Dickens and GE lives on and influences and teached generation after generation about what it's like to be a poor boy with Great Expectations and how that may turn out in the end.

 Jude, I'll agree we see what it was to be poor - and rise above it.  But there is so much more here in the sub-text, don't you think?  Pip couldn't wait to get away from those who loved him - not even a goodbye.  I think with sadness how I left home the first time - and avoided the phone calls from my anxious, caring father who needed to hear that I was not homesick.  
You get a different perspective when reading GE at this age - different from when you were younger.

The Pockets - overwhelmed with those ten children - nothing could have prepared Belinda Pocket, the spoiled only child for what was to come.  At least she married Matthew for love.  Didn't they elope?  I think Dickens is writing about life, how we handle the hand we are dealt, the mistakes we make, the regrets that will surely follow.  Belinda Pocket gives up on her children, turns to books, as Mrs. Jellyby turned to her charitable work in Africa, while her own children "tumbled up" - the responsibility of an older sibling, or worse, the servants.

I think Pip needs to make strong friends - friends who will be with him on the way down, not just when his pockets are full.  I'm counting Herbert as one of a friend - Wemmick too, Babi.    Wemmick was startled when Pip reached out to shake his hand, but then invited him to his home.  That means a lot for this man who separates work from home.  I liked Wemmick and obvious care and affection for the Aged.

Jonathan, I have mixed feelings about Jaggers.  His brusque mannter, the way he shows no mercy to those who need him, but cannot pay.  Maybe he's just a realist - knowing that there are  many, many people in need of his services, and cannot help them all.  He seems to accept the fact that Pip will not be able to handle so much money.  Will he still be his "guardian," his protector, when the money runs out.   What is Pip  spending it on, by the way - besides clothes?

Babi - I'd count Drummle out -  he looks down on him because he's not from money.  Not sure about Startop (Shortstop as Jonathan calls him ) ...not counting on him to stand with Pip.

[Frybabe]

I'm exploring a 1851 Map of London in just the area where Pip is. I found Cheapside, being the main thoroughfare to the right of St. Paul's Cathedral.  Wood Street is off of Cheapside going north. I couldn't locate Cross Keys. Little Britain, where Mr. Jaggars resides is north of the cathedral and to the left off of Alder's Gate Street. Bartholomew Close is apparently what is just called Close on this old map. Between Little Britain and the cathedral stands Newgate Prison, although the map does not mark which buildings it occupies off of Newgate Street. Holborn Hill is located at the left of the map and constitutes part of the red line that crosses the map. I take it that Barnard's Inn is at the top of the hill or close to it. Holburn Hill is now part of A40 and called Holburn Viaduct on a modern map until it gets to Holburn Circle, after that it becomes High Holburn.   http://london1851.com/cross13.htm  Here is an old picture of Barnard's Inn http://spitalfieldslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/45-28.jpg Those of you who participated in the Bleak House discussion may remember photos of the area posted there. I couldn't keep up with it at the time, but I thought someone posted photos from the spitalfieldlife.com site.

[JoanP]

It's hard to keep up, I agree, Fry.  Thanks for the link to the map and the photo of Barnard's Inn - will put it in the heading right now.  Notice that if you open the link to the map and then click on the map, you can enlarge it.

I didn't understand why Pip is living in Barnard's Inn...was he supposed to be living at the Pocket's, but chose to live with Herbert in this dismal place?

My son lived in the Spitalfield area in central London until a few months ago when he moved to Portabellow Rd.

[Frybabe]

JoanP, I think Mr. Jaggars had made the arrangements for Pip to live with Herbert prior to his arrival. I think it was a permanent arrangement as a rented bed was sent there. Pip was to go with Herbert on the following Monday to visit Matthew at his home, five miles away.

I was curious about Newgate prison because it wasn't marked on the old map (not that I could find) nor on a modern one. Up until 1858, prisoners lived in wards around central courtyards. Elizabeth Fry made a stink about the deplorable accommodations, which resulted in the prison being remodeled to individual cells.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Newgate_Prison_Publ_1800.jpg  It was torn down in 1904, and only a few bits remain.

[JudeS]

JoanP

You asked for the name of the dog in His Master's Voice (HMV).
Well I appealed to the Google God and got more info than I could "Handel".
The original owner of NIPPER was Mark Barraud. He died but left some vinyl (or bakylite) records of his voice, his victrola and his dog to his brother, Frances, a well known artist.
Nipper would listen for hours to Mark's voice on the victrola.
Finally Frances made a painting of the terrier listening and thus was born an icon that till today has 400 stores worldwide known as HMV.

[JoanP]

We're ready for the next time we're on a quiz show, Jude -   The RCA dog's name Nipper - and Pip's name, Phillip Pirrip.  You were thorough in your research.  How about Buster Brown's dog's name?  

Fry, I'm beginning to think that Barnard's Inn was the best possible accomodation for Pip - He would be living with another young man - someone known to Jaggers - the son of Matthew Pocket, who was to be Pip's tutor.  Would Pip be making the five mile trip each day for his lessons?  The place is depressing from the outside, but Pip has some discretionary funds to fix up the interior - heck, he has enough money to call in a professional decorator...

Herbert was full of information about Miss Havisham and her fiance, wasn't he? ...Was there anything you found memorable from what he told Pip?  How about the fact that the half-brother - and the finance are still living - somewhere?  Do you think they will make an appearance before we come to the end of the tale?

I liked the way Herbert just shrugged off the fact that he didn't pass Miss Havisham's scrutiny - and would not be in the running for the "great expectations" she might have offered him.  Is that why Sarah Pocket was startled (dismayed?) when PIP showed up at Satis House in his new clothes?  She knew at that moment that Pip was to receive what Herbert did not.  WHO IS SARAH POCKET?

Herbert wasn't sorry about losing the interest of the lovely Estella either was he?  He had her number from the start...

[PatH]

Someone asked me why I don't like Jaggers.  The biggest reason is because he is dishonest in his cases.  There are two instances of him using witnesses who he knows will testify to order.  And he's sneaky about it--handles things through his clerks in such a way that theoretically he doesn't know what is going on.  Faking data is an unforgivable sin in my books.

He's also an unpleasant bully, and obviously doesn't care about his clients, plus he doesn't seem to be interested in the actual facts of his cases.