GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX VOLUME 2 July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV) July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)

Chapter VII (XXVI)

1. What does Jaggers warn Pip about Drummle?

2. What are your impressions of Molly?  


Chapter VIII (XXVII)


1. Why does Joe come to London?

2. What is the result of Joe's trip?

 
Chapter IX (XXVIII)

1. How does Dickens bring back the prisoner theme?

2. Who is famous in his hometown as Pip's earliest companion, patron and friend? What is Pip's attitude to this supposed fact?
 

Chapter X  (XXIX)

1. How does Pip see himself as he returns to Miss Havisham's?

2. How does Pip follow Miss Havisham's teaching in relation to his feelings for Estella?

3. Pip doesn't visit Joe. Why?
  
Chapter XI  (XXX)

1. How does Pip get even with Orlick?

2. How does Herbert contrast with Pip?

3. What does Pip send to Joe and why does he send it?

4. Why does Herbert accuse Pip of “looking into our gift-horse's mouth with a magnifying glass"?

  
Chapter XII  (XXXI)

1. How does Pip's night at the theater affect him?


Chapter XIII  (XXXII)

1. Why does Dickens include a picture of Newgate Prison?

2. How does Estella appear to Pip in contrast to his visit to the prison?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;  Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856;    Map of London 1851

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[PatH]

Here's a bit that amused me--the description of Jaggers' office chair: "...of deadly black horsehair, with rows of brass nails round it like a coffin...."  People who have actual experience with horsehair furniture tell me that the hairs break off, producing tiny sharp ends that poke you in the bottom when you sit down.

[Frybabe]

The description of Mr. Wemmick's home is a hoot. He strikes me as a bit eccentric, a tinkerer and all round handyman around the place. I am amazed that his neighbors should but up with the nightly cannon. Another interesting bit is his description of his father as "aged parent" and addresses him as such, never calling him father or by name.

Walworth is a bit of a hike from Jaggar's office. It is across the bridge and south. It looks like it is three times as far from the Thames as is Jaggar's office. Like I said, a hike.  Some famous people are from there: Michael Faraday, Charles Babbage, Robert Browning, Michael Caine, Charlie Chaplin, John Ruskin. It's a shame I can't locate any old illustrations. The earlies photos I found were in the early 1900s. Today it is all apartments and row homes.

So Pip has a room at the Pocket's house with two other boys, and he keeps his place with Herbert in London. What a contrast in character and demeanor are Drummle and Startop.

[JudeS]

Joan p

Trivia answer...
The name of Buster Broen's dog is Tige.

I gave the info on Sara Pocket in my post #217.

In my list of characters much is said of Drummle,-mostly negative.  He is described as a coarse, unintelligent young man .
Drummle is hostile to Pip and everyone else. His family is wealthy and he expects to inherit  to  a title. I doubt he and Pip will be friends.

Startop is described as kind..He is said to have woman's taste in many ways.
He , Pip, and Herbert will get along.

Herbert will become fast friends with Pip or as he calls him, Handel.

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Joan, for the correction on Startop's name. Very careless of me. Pip is put off by Drummle, but is drawn to Startop. Is it Startop's devotion to his mother that has caught Pip's imagination. An experience he never knew. In any case, here are two young men sent off to Mr Pocket for instructions in being gentlemen. Were they unbearable at home? Will the Pocket milieu straighten them out? They wouldn't seem to be a threat to the Pockets in the Havisham estate prospects. Sarah is a cousin to Mathew, housekeeping for Miss H, at Satis House.

Wemmick's Castle! What a contrast, and how proud he is of it. Living a double life:

'...the office is one thing, and private life is another. When I go into the office, I leave the Castle behind me, and when I come into the Castle, I leave the office behind me..

Oh, yeah. Then why is the time between nine and supper taken up by Wemmick proudly showing off his 'collection of curiosities':

'They were mostly of a felonious character; comprising the pen with which a celebrated forgery had been committed, a distinguished razor or two, some locks of hair, and several  manuscript confessions written under condemnation - upon which Mr Wemmick set particular value as being, to use his own words, 'every one of 'em Lies, sir.'

Proved in court by Mr Jaggers to have been forgeries, no doubt. Isn't he awesome in court? Everyone is on trial in Jagger's courtroom. Even the Judge, as he gets a dressing down from Jaggers, as being a poor 'representative of British law and justice'. Pip sees the shaking knees under the desk.

Herbert, on Estella: 'That girl's hard and haughty and capricious to the last degree.' (p200) Will that, too, go into Pip's education?. A happy ending to this story may depend on it.

[Babi]

 Ah, good. Jude and Jonathan have safely pocketed Miss Sarah.

Bentley Drummle, who was so sulky a fellow that he even took up a book as if its writer
 had done him an injury, did not take up an acquaintance in a more agreeable spirit.
 This pretty much settled Master Drummle in my mind.

  I noted Pip is still sensitive to his own flaws, at least as observed by his maturer self.
 but through good and evil I stuck to my books. There was no other merit in this, than my
having sense enough to feel my deficiencies.

 I loved the Wemmick household, the aged parent, and all the little idioyncrasies. Did you notice
 how 'rural' the area still was at that time?
At the back, there's a pig, and there are fowls and rabbits; then, I knock together my own little frame, you see, and grow cucumbers; and you'll judge at supper what sort of a salad I can raise.

[JoanP]

We seem to have differing responses to Mr. Jaggers:  some of us like him - an "awesome lawyer"  - but PatH stated good reasons to  disliking him. Maybe he'd be less abrupt and irritable if he got a new chair, Pat.
 

 
 What do you make of him? The people, his clients, regard him as their saviour - will pay anything for his time, for his attention.  I couldn't help but compare the saviour's response to the Jew who had such faith in him, if he could get close to him, "if he could but  kiss the hem of his garment". Jaggers wheels around - "Who is this man?  I don't know this man.  Let go of my coat.  Get out of my way."

Can this possibly be the good guy we hope he will turn out to be?  Is Dickens deliberately blurring his character to have him emerge as a "good guy"  as the story develops...or is he providing enough reasons for us, and for Pip to beware of him?
 When I hear of his position - "guardian"  - I think more of a protector, someone who has an interest in the boy's well-being.  And yet we are reminded more than once, that Mr. Jaggers regards the position as simply a business proposition between himself and his client - and no more.
 
 
 

[JoanP]

Good morning, Babi!  Sarah is "pocketed," ...  Both Sarah and Matthew Pocket are cousins of Miss Havisham, yes.  Do you think Sarah and Matthew are cousins to one another?  Or perhaps brother and sister? ..... Perhaps we will hear more of their relationship as the story progresses.   Interesting that Miss H. has banned Matthew from the house, but Sarah is a member of her household.  Herbert was even a candidate for Estella's hand...wasn't he fortunate that he didn't fall under her spell as Pip did?  Does this indicate that Miss Havisham has forgiven Matthew for warning her against her fiance?  Or is Miss Havisham still waiting for her groom to show up?

Fry, the description of Wemmick's home was a "hoot" - the rural visit was an enjoyable respite from dark and dismal London, as Babi pointed out.
Wemmick invited Pip into his home - this is a man who doesn't mix his personal and private life, as Fry and Jonathan describe him.  He's moved their relationship to a personal level.  I can't help but wonder why.    We've seen him carrying  out Jagger's instructions, he handles all personal interactions with Jaggers' clients, his position as Jagger's clerk is important to him.  Jaggers is aware that Pip is visiting Wemmick's home and shortly after that Pip and his "friends"  will be invited to Jaggers' home.
I really want to  count him as Pip's friend - but sometimes I have to wonder why he is going out of his way to be close to Pip.  Did you notice in his description - is he a young man?
Did you get the feeling Wemmick was sending Pip a warning, indirectly, when he described Jaggers: "he always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught."  Is Jaggers going to give Pip every opportunity to hang himself?

Jonathan, I wasn't "correcting" Startop's name - I thought your "Shortstop"  was an apt description of this mama's boy..

[Frybabe]

Did you get the feeling Wemmick was sending Pip a warning, indirectly, when he described Jaggers: "he always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught."

Look out for some of this in the next chapter. I accidentally read ahead one chapter.

Jaggars is good and he knows it. So does everyone else. I think at least some of his treatment of other people has to do with not having or wanting to take time with a lot of potential clients who have unwinnable or unprofitable cases. I doubt that he has much, if any experience with children or youngsters except for using them as runners or information gathers. Maybe he equates likability with softness and thinks of that as a weakness that will make him less effective in the courtroom. Note that, unlike Wemmick, he appears to take his work home with him. He can't or won't separate his personal life from his professional.

[JudeS]

If Jaggers is really bad or dishonest why would Pip's Benefactor entrust Pip's future to him?

Jaggers has also been entrusted with large sums of money to ensure Pip's education and welfare.
If you had decided to be a benefactor to a poor young boy with "expectations" wouldn't you make sure the person in
charge of this task was honest and intelligent?

I don't think a superficial niceness comes into the calculation.
A lawyer who is honest, clever, wealthy and a "nice guy" would be unbelleivable and Dickens always shows that EVERYONE
has flaws.

[PatH]

I don't think Jaggers is dishonest in the sense that he would misuse money entrusted to him.  He undoubtedly has a long track record of handling his clients' finances appropriately.  Falsifying evidence is an intellectual or moral dishonesty.

[JoanK]

Pat and I are lawyers daughters. For us, anyone who would falsify evidence is totally unforgivable. Given his slimey treatment of his work, we can't really expect anything good from him.

 Of course, we already know from Drood what Dickens thought of the legal system. he's probably reporting the system as he saw it. Such falsification of evidence might well have been accepted practice. (Although, given the eagerness of people to obtain Jaggars services, he was probably better at it than most.)

[Frybabe]

Ages ago, my fencing tutor, who was a lawyer, told me that nice and lawyer was an oxymoron.

I thought Dickens was a little ambiguous about whether or not his people were out looking for actual witnesses or not. What I got out of one scene was that Jaggars wanted "witnesses" that looked and sounded credible enough to hold up in court, not necessarily someone who was telling the truth. It would have been a lot easier to find such people willing to purger themselves for money back then. I think back them the police had to rely mostly on forced confessions, witnesses (truthful or not), and gut feelings.

[Babi]

A lawyer who is honest, clever, wealthy and a "nice guy" would be unbeleivable

..
   Good line, JUDE!

 

Falsifying evidence is an intellectual or moral dishonesty.

Not to mention illegal, and would get any lawyer disbarred if proven. (And despite all the
cracks about lawyers, I'm sure your, and Joan's, father was a very fine man, PAT. )

[JoanP]

Maybe we should keep a list of the oxymorons, Fry   - starting with "nice lawyers."

"Jaggers is good and he knows it. So does everyone else."

 I'm not quite so sure everyone knows it, Fry.  How about the cases he loses - and he does lose some.  I'm thinking of those two grotesque busts in his office...Wemmick describes them as sort of death masks - taken from two of Jaggers' famous clients after they were hung at Newgate.  

Had a talk at the breakfast table with my husband - about this very thing, Babi.   He is a retired lawyer - as are two of my sons.  I asked  about dishonest lawyers...  He couldn't name a one - except in litigation, you always suspect the other lawyers, especially in criminal investigations.  Not so much dishonesty as much as deviousness and evasion...counseling clients not to offer any more information than what is asked.  I don't know - do we have to be clear what is meant by a dishonest lawyer.  

I agree with PatH, Jude - Jaggers was doing the job he was paid to do. I don't look upon him as a dishonest lawyer...(depending on your definition of what that means.) Is Jaggers guilty of falsifying evidence, Babi? I think I missed that.  Fry, do you see him looking for credible witnesses whose testimony would stand up in court - or do you see him looking for those who would be willing to purger themselves for money?

He's paying Pip as instructed by his client...  I'm not sure what the client wanted Jaggers to do as his "guardian."  Did he want him to look out for the boy's well-being in the big city.  Does he want him to counsel Pip on the use of the money?  If so, then I'd be concerned about the way he's opening the wallet for anything that Pip asks.  Even Pip was uncomfortable that day he asked for money - felt that he would have given him any amount, "lying in wait, hand in his pocket."  
"This strongly marked way of doing business made a strongly marked impression on me and that not of an agreeable kind." - Is Pip remembering Wemmick's description of his employer - "a man-trap"?  Do you get the feeling that Jaggers is waiting for Pip to waste his fortune?

Maybe I'm wrong - what is your impression?

[JudeS]

Pat & Joan
Sorry if you felt hurt as we discuss lawyers. Most of my knowledge of lawyers is from the press and John Grisham.

My estate lawyer is a lovely woman as is her daughter, who is her partner.The Lawyers who worked for my professional organization were always extremely helpful and knowledgable. However they were on my side always, as they represented my profession. and not any annoyed clients..

I do know there are many, many different types of lawyers, most of whom never appear in court.
In England there are Barristers and Solicitors. I will check and see if those differences existed in Dicken's era.

However I still think that Jaggers represents Pip and is on his side even if he is not teaching him to use his money wisely. Pip, having been poor before, is probably spending money on clothes, food, liquor and things that seem to make life easier. However he says clearly that he also kept to his studies. What those studies were has not yet been made clear.

[PatH]

No offense taken, Jude.  Lawyers are pretty used to lawyer cracks and just laugh at them.  My point was that I felt I recognized unethical behavior, and disapprove strongly because of my background.

A footnote in my book says that the distinction between solicitors and barristers did exist at that time, but the line was sometimes crossed, and indeed Jaggers, a solicitor, did seem to cross it.

A barrister has graduated from one of the Inns of Court, and is qualified to plead directly before the high courts.  A solicitor has been trained in a lawyer's office, and prepares his cases, but has a barrister plead them in court.  I'm not quite sure why Jaggers was in court bullying everyone, but the footnote says heavy caseloads led to the blurring of roles.

[Frybabe]

Fry, do you see him looking for credible witnesses whose testimony would stand up in court - or do you see him looking for those who would be willing to purger themselves for money?

I'm not sure, JoanP. It could just as well be that Jaggars knows full well that those he sends out to find credible witnesses are just as likely to come back with someone who will testify to something they actually didn't see. Dickens is not clear. I suppose that his hireling would have been paid a small finders fee if the witness holds up. I am researching th role of witnesses and lawyers now and ran across this interesting website. http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/section11333-witnesses-lawyers-and-juries.html It doesn't specifically answer my question, but does have some interesting history in its pages. Have a look. In the meantime, I continue my research.


PatH, thanks for answering Jude's question about solicitors and barristers. I was wonder the same thing too. It appears that Jaggars was both. From the link I gave above, it looks like Barristers (lawyers) were not necessarily in common use until a little later in the 19th century.

[Jonathan]

Interesting point from Jude: 'However he (Pip) says clearly that he also kept to his studies. What those studies were has not yet been made clear.'

Someone wants to make a gentleman out of Pip, and it's Pip's own desire to be one. He's brought to London and put into the company of gentlemen, and supplied with money to support a gentleman's lifestyle. He has a lot to learn. As for his studies, this is what he tell us, in Chapter 25:

'...I settled down, and applied myself to my education. I soon contracted expensive habits, and began to spend an amount of money that within a few short months I should have thought almost fabulous; but through good and evil I stuck to my books. There was no other merit in this, than my having sense enough to feel my deficiencies. Between Mr Pocket and Herbert I got on fast.'

That sounds to me like he's starting to find a comfort level in the company he keeps. Perhaps Mr Jaggers is setting a trap as hinted at by Wemmick, but I doubt it. Jaggers must be following instructions he has received from his client. And with Pip an eventual propertied gentleman, Jaggers could be expected to be a proper 'guardian'. Jaggers would have a reputation to uphold. Of course everyone knows that some lawyers are disbarred for malpractice, with some even put behind bars, for criminal acts. Jaggers is very professional and would seem to act as both solicitor and barrister. That struck me as interesting.

[JoanP]

"...Pocket tells Pip he won't be prepared for any particular profession but educated enough to hold his own among average young men in prosperous circumstances..."

Is Dickens poking fun at the education of those young men- who don't do anything but live on titles or family fortune?

"That sounds to me like he's starting to find a comfort level in the company he keeps."

 Well, yes, Jonathan, Pip gets along fine with Herbert Pocket and his father...but not so much with Dremmle - and to make matters even more uncomfortable for Pip, Mr. Pockets' sister and her husband turn up.  Are they living in the Pocket home?  And Georgina too - another Pocket cousin.  Pip: "these people hated me with the hatred of cupidity and disappointment."
Will have to look up "cupidity"  - when the Olympic swimmers are finished...   Pip feels their hatred and ill-will, no matter what it means.

[JoanP]

...Almost forgot John Wemmick.  Maybe he'll turn out to be the best friend Pip has in London.  He seems to be making sure that Pip understands the situation - as much as he is free to do.  I was  a bit puzzled at what he told Pip about the law office clerks - only four of them.  Is he counting Pip as one of them? Or did I not read that right?  Who was the clerk, the "smelter" in the basement?  What is he smelting - did you understand that?

In the morning we'll move on to the next installment, with Pip and his "pals" invited to dinner with Mr. Jaggers.  I'm curious about why Jaggers has invited the three of them - he must have a motive.  Pip seems annoyed that Jaggers refers to the other two as his "gang" - The dinner conversation should be entertaining...

[Babi]

 My comment on 'falsifying evidence' was in response to Pat's post, JOAN. But I did
definitely perceive Jaggers as hiring people who could convincingly be false witnesses.
As best I can tell, Jaggers has been instructed to turn Pip into a 'young gentleman' and
to supply him with the funds to live as one. Jaggers makes it plain he does what he
contracts to do, and no more.
  I am assuming that Pip's studies were those that were expected in young gentlemen of
the day. I found this rather neat summary:

  EDUCATION

Education in nineteenth-century England was not equal - not between the sexes, and not
 between the classes. Gentlemen would be educated at home by a governess or tutor until
they were old enough to attend Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Winchester, Westminster, Charterhouse,
or a small handful of lesser schools. The curriculum was heavily weighted towards the
classics - the languages and literature of Ancient Greece and Rome. After that, they would
attend Oxford or Cambridge. Here they might also study mathematics, law, philosophy, and
modern history. Oxford tended to produce more Members of Parliament and government
officials, while Cambridge leaned more towards the sciences and produced more acclaimed
scholars. However, it was not compulsory, either legally or socially, for a gentleman to
attend school at all. He could, just as easily, be taught entirely at home.

[marcie]

We're moving on to the next section today, Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII), but can continue to talk about anything in the previous chapters.

JoanP asks a good question: Why has Jaggers has invited Pip and his "gang."

[PatH]

Who was the clerk, the "smelter" in the basement?  What is he smelting - did you understand that?

The "smelter...who would melt me anything I pleased" isn't a clerk.  My book explains him well in a footnote:

Wemmick is showing off a receiver of stolen goods who "in the esoteric language peculiar to [Dickens's] criminals" converts the thieves' haul of silver or gold cups, spoons, and the like into liquid assets.  Perhaps more generally, Wemmick's way of saying that the metaphorical smelter...could be trusted to follow the lawyer's instructions in manipulating his "evidence."

[marcie]

PatH, my edition has the same footnote. I wouldn't have figured it out myself.

[JoanP]

Babi - after reading your article on nineteenth century education, I started wondering what will be next for Pip - once Mr. Pocket has taught him all he knows.  What sort of a life is he being prepared for?  What will he do with this fancy education?  Is it pointless to educate the boy, any boy and not provide him a way to use it?  Do you think this will turn out to be Dickens' point?


Thanks for the description of the smelter, PatH - I suspect then that Wemmick was telling Pip that Jaggers doesn't hire clerks to do legal work - he does that sort of thing himself...  Instead he hires the smelter.

I looked up cupidity - one of those words I can never remember.  It means "avarice" or "greed" - so the Pocket/Havisham  cousins look upon Pip with greed and disappointment - he's a threat to their share in the Havisham fortune?  What happens if he does not succeed - if he squanders the money left for his education?  What effect would that have on them?

[JoanP]

An interesting question, Marcie - when I read about the little dinner party, for Pip's "gang" I remember being really surprised to hear Mr. Jaggers say that he "liked"  Bentley Drummle.  He even toasts him.  What is there to like about him?    Pip is dismayed.   I don't remember Jaggers' warning about Drummle, though...  I'll have to reread that chapter again.  Each time I reread, I notice more...
One thing I do remember - Drummle is to leave the Pockets' home in about a month.  His education is complete.

[Frybabe]

JoanP asked while back:

Did you get the feeling Wemmick was sending Pip a warning, indirectly, when he described Jaggers: "he always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught."

This is exactly what I think Jaggars is doing with Drummle. But is he baiting Drummle or trying for a reaction from Pip? I have the feeling that he expects to see Drummle in some kind of legal mess sometime in the future that he can turn to his advantage.

[marcie]

Jaggers baiting of the boys seems odd. I am unsure what he's trying to accomplish. I have the same question as you, Frybabe. Is he baiting Drummle or trying for a reaction from Pip?

That's an interesting question, JoanP, about education. We know that Dickens had strong feelings about the state of education for young men. Is there a next step for Pip, after Mr. Pocket?

[JoanP]

Do you get the idea that Pip is to continue on with Matthew Pocket until he comes of age - turns 21 - and then he will come into an estate?  

I'm seeing a different Jaggers altogether, now that he's invited the boys into his home for dinner.  Either he has  a personal interest in Pip and wants to get to know his friends - or he has further instruction from his client, Pip's benefactor.  It seems to me that the latter must be the case.  How do you see his purpose?

Not only does Jaggers show  surprising interest in Bently Drummle at this dinner party, but Dickens seems to be focusing more - more than necessary - on Jaggers himself.  The details of his home,  his scented soap - even his housekeeper.   Wemmick told Pip to pay attention to her...called her "a wild beast tamed."  He didn't have to tell Pip that - Jagger's forced everyone's attention to her - her hands, her wrists, the scars.  There's a story there.  Do you think she'd been tied up?  That was a strange little dinner party - with unforgetable details...  I'm looking at Jaggers as more than just a barrister/soliciter, carrying out his clients'  wishes.  He's become a person of interest...

[Babi]

 Sadly, JOAN, it seems that the whole point of being a 'gentleman' is that one did not
have to do anything useful. One was a man of leisure; only the vulgar 'worked'. For those
who wanted a more active role there were interests and hobbies to pursue. Horses, or
agricultural innovations, or building. I believe a good many of the explorers and
archaeologist of this period were gentlemen of wealth, who could afford their expensive
hobby.
  Ah, the 'smelter' is explained. This does seem to confirm that Jaggers is not at all
ethical in pursuing his cases. He is out to win.  I can understand his 'liking' Drummle.
I think FRYBABE has a point. Jaggers would be quite familiar with this type of man;
contemptuous, violent, arrogant. Certain trouble pending. As for his motives in baiting
the two young men, I think both could equally apply.

 I was also struck by the emphasis on the housekeeper, JOAN. She is bound to have a
significant role somewhere in this story. I find myself wondering why she puts up with
Jaggers treatment of her.
 

[marcie]

I am wondering if Jaggers saved the housekeeper from prison. Are those handcuff scars on her wrist?

His benefactor has said that Pip is to be educated before he comes into his fortune. Maybe that will be before he is 21. When did the age of 21 begin to mean "adult"?

[PatH]

When did the age of 21 begin to mean "adult"?

It must have already meant that in Dickens' time.  In Bleak House, as soon as Ada turns 21 she is able to marry Richard Carstone secretly without her guardian's consent.

Jaggers' dinner party is really something, isn't it.  He's looking at his guests like specimens on pins, prodding them to see how they will react, digging out their worst sides.  He's got a cruel streak, too.  Look at how he forces his housekeeper Molly to show her scarred wrist, even though she begs him not to.  There's probably quite a story there, and I'm sure we'll learn it.

Jaggers likes Drummle--"He is one of the true sort".  What does that mean?  Nothing good, since in the same breath he warns Pip to have nothing to do with him--keep clear of him.

[JoanK]

There certainly some things about Jaggars that we don't know yet -- with his strange treatment of Drummle and the housekeeper. Another mystery to keep us busy.

[JudeS]

In chapter XI we meet up again with Trabb's boy.  He has no other name.

I had forgotten who he was and so I googled him and I was shocked to see that I was one of 60,700 people who had done that.
There are essays galore and all sorts of opinions.  However I will just present the "tip of the ice-berg" explanation.
Trabb's boy,the tailor's son, is a bully and rebel.  He likes to make fun of Pip. He is somewhat the town joker or barometer,
acting out what everyone is thinking.
Although Pip dismisses his encounter with Trabb's boy he can't help but be a little shaken by the idea that he is known in his hometown as haughty.

One other issue interested me.  Dicken's goes along telling us a narrative about his cast of characters. Then, all of a sudden, we have a "chapter X"  moment, when the author goes into a deep analysis of the inner psychology of these people.
Example: "As Estella looked back over her shoulder......Miss Havisham kissed that hand to her, with a ravenous intensity that was of a kind quite dreadful."
Example: "You  must know, said Estella ,codescending to meas a brilliant and beautiful woman might,' that I have no heart
- if that has anything to do with my memory'.

It is moments like these that turn the book from a children's story into a psychological novel for adults.

[marcie]

PatH, you are right, of course. I had forgotten in Bleak House about Ada's reaching age 21 and coming into her inheritance then and marrying Richard.

I am thinking that "He's one of the true sort" has something to do with Drummle's negative tendencies... as if he was a "born" criminal. As JoanP says, we'll likely find out Jaggers intentions re Drummle in later chapters.

JudeS, yes, Dickens does sometimes delve into the psyches of his characters. Jaggers is someone who has taught himself to read people extremely well.

Pip says of the dinner at Jaggers' house: "Dinner went off gaily, and, although my guardian seemed to follow rather than originate subjects, I knew that he wrenched the weakest part of our dispositions out of us. For myself, I found that I was expressing my tendency to lavish expenditure, and to patronize Herbert, and to boast of my great prospects, before I quite knew that I had opened my lips. It was so with all of us, but with no one more than Drummle: the development of whose inclination to gird in a grudging and suspicious way at the rest, was screwed out of him before the fish was taken off."

Jude, There have been several instances of Miss Havisham looking at Estella in a "ravenous" way. It's disgusting to Pip.

[PatH]

I wondered about the word "gird" here.  I think of it in connection of preparing for action--gird up one's loins--but I finally looked it up and found that it has another meaning, somewhat archaic, to make cutting or critical remarks.

I think you're right, Marcie, Jaggers sees Drummle as a prime example of a type.

[JoanP]

  So Pip's guardian shows more interest in Bentley Dremmle than he does to Pip, to Pip's dismay. There seems to be no explanation for this - unless he's doing this just to get Pip's attention.

Poor miserable Dremmle..."the blotchy, sprawly, sulky fellow." - not one positive trait does Dickens give him, which makes Jaggers' admiration for him all more puzzling to Pip.  I would agree that Jaggers' plan was to warn Pip about him, PatH, but noticed that the warning did not come until Pip went back into the house, after Jaggers had already washed his hands of them.  He hadn't planned to give Pip a warning at all!  Didn't tell Pip to keep as clear of him as possible - until Pip returned unexpectedly.  Dremmle had left, and still Jaggers repeats his admiration for him to Pip.  This has to have been for Pip's benefit, don't you think?   "He is one of the true sort.  Why, if I was a fortune teller..."  What does he see in that crystal ball of his?

Do you think Jaggers really does admire Bentley Dremmle?  His type?

[Babi]

 MARCIE, just reading your post I got my first glimpse of why Jaggers' held these dinners.
Ply the guests with wine, and learn more about them than they ever intended to reveal. I
have a really bad feeling about Drummle. He is sure to be the cause of much grief somewhere
along the way.

 And JOAN, your phrase, "after Jaggers had washed his hands of them", really struck me.
Like Pilate, I believe that is exactly what all his hand-washing was about, whether he
realized it or not. It's a way, psychologically, of distancing himself from all the ugly
things in his way of life.
  I can't quite see Jaggers 'admiring' Drummle in the way we think of the word. I think
it is used in the sense in which we recognize something extreme or perfectly representative
of a type. Dont's we tend to stare at the 'biggest', the 'tallest', the 'ugliest', the
most costly?

[marcie]

PatH, thanks for another meaning of "gird." "To make cutting or critical remarks" seems to fit Drummle.

JoanP and Babi, The washing of the hands is quite an interesting characteristic for Dickens to give Jaggers. Pip can recognize Jaggers coming into a room through the smell of his soap.