GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX VOLUME 2 July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV) July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII) August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX) VOLUME 3 August 12-18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)

Chapter XIV (XXXIII)

1.  Do you find a comment that seems to be the centre of this chapter? Which one is it?  And why?

2.  Pip has another one of those sudden flares of light that touched a hidden memory.  What do you think may have triggered it?


Chapter XV (XXXIV)

1.  What further burden to his conscience now troubles Pip?

2.  What was the 'gay fiction' of the two friends, Pip and Herbert?  Have you had, or observed, similar situations?

3.  What do you think of Pip and Herbert's method of "looking into our affairs"?

 
Chapter XVI (XXXV)

1.  How did Pip cope with his sister's death?

2.  Has Pip's behavior toward Biddy changed?  What is your reaction to each of them  from their conversation together?
 
 
Chapter XVII  (XXXVI)

1.  Can you suggest a reason why answering Pip's questions about his benefactor could  compromise Jaggers?

2.  What is the first thing Pip did with his new income? What does this say to us about him?

Chapter XVIII  (XXXVII)

1.  Wemmick has two personas. How does he keep them separate? What does his say to  us about him?

2.  What explanation does Wemmick give for his decision to assist Pip in his giving away of 'portable property'?

3.  What is your impression of Miss Skiffins?

Chapter XIX  (XXXVIII)

1.  What new development emerges in Miss Havisham's plans for Estella?

2.  How does Pip explain Estella's attitude to support his own delusion?

3.  What is the basis of the quarrel between Miss Havisham and Estella?  What is  Estella's position. How does she explain it?

Chapter XX  (XXXIX)

1.  The day of revelation has arrived. What hopes and dreams , what 'great expectations',  does Pip's benefactor hold towards him?  What is Pip's reaction to the news?

2.  Why, do you think, did Pip's benefactor make this a life's goal?

3.  What great risk is the benefactor taking?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;  Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856;    Map of London 1851

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[JoanP]

Babi, I hadn't thought of Pontius Pilate, washing his hands after each of his  legal dealings that he doesn't feel good about.  Did hand-washing ease Pilate's conscience?    But why would he be feeling the need to wash up after an innocent, social evening with the four young lads?  Do you suppose it wasn't really innocent - but rather  an evening that he wished he didn't have to do?  I can't tell if he is acting against Pip's best interests...

I was going to ask why the emphasis on scented soap?  He keeps this same scented soap in his office, at home, when visiting Miss Havisham's...  Marcie, do you think the scent is an important signal that he is not responsible to all in his presence for the results of his actions...innocent, just doing his job?  He used the soap when the boys had left for the evening.  Maybe the scent is a signal to himself?  I bet we will be sniffing that soap in the chapters to come. I'll bet Jude will have an observation on this seemingly compulsive disorder...

[Frybabe]

I must agree with Babi. Jaggars is admiring perfect or near perfect example of a classic type that he recognizes in Drummle.

Jaggars, with his scented soap, is at the least a very fastidious person (like Poirot?). He may, as JoanP suggests, even be showing the manifestations of OCD. I'm not sure about the scented soap as opposed to nonscented, but I imagine that anyone who could afford lots of perfume and scented soaps used them to reduce the smell of foul odors from the generally poor sanitation and poor personal hygiene still fairly widespread at the time.

[PatH]

I had assumed that Jaggers had given the dinner party merely because he would be expected to entertain his ward, but you're right, Babi, he also wanted to pry information out of his guests.  He couldn't have planned ahead to warn Pip about Drummle, since he had never met him, didn't know what he was like until he saw him.

I wonder if highly scented soap would have been considered affected for a man.

[JudeS]

Does Jaggers have OCD?

This disorder has two components. They do not always come together in each individual. That is one may have Obsessions or Compulsions or both.
An obsession is a persistent thought and is ego dystonic. This refers to the fact that the thoughts are alien but the person believes that he has no control over them.
A compulsion is a repetitive behavior whose goal is to reduce or alleviate stress or anxiety.
Washing hands is one example of a compulsion. By definition compulsions are clearly excessive and are not truly necessary.
Remember when Dickens was writing, these disorders had not been codified and not explained to the general public.

Dickens is telling us (I think) that keeping up his facade of constant vigilance produces in Jaggers a great deal of anxiety. The washing of his hands with perrfumed soap symbolically washes away some of his anxiety.  However the relief is momentary and so he takes his soap with him.  No Vallium or other tranquilizers in those days.
No doubt Dickens had observed this type of behavior in someone under a great deal of outer(or inner) pressure.

We are going to Portland Oregon for a week tomorrow. Will join you again upon our return.

[Jonathan]

Bon voyage, Jude. We will impatiently await your return. You're absolutely crucial to this discussion, as the plot thickens and the characters turn murky.

The more I read about Jaggers, the more I appreciate him as a genuine Dickens character. More than meets the eye, but easy to follow the scent. He doesn't want to get his hands dirty. He wants to cover the smell. He has the sorriest law practice imaginable. His clients are the untouchables of the London slums. Just as his clerk, Wemmick, retreats to his Castle to get away from it all, so Jaggers is constantly cleaning himself up, washing away the unpleasantries of his practice.

It seems to me that Jaggers would delight in having dinner with four young gentlemen, as welcome as a breath of fresh air. No doubt he brings them together so that he can observe Pip's behaviour. He is, after all, responsible for Pip's progress in becoming a gentleman, with Pip's patron presumably expecting a progress report. Jaggers certainly draws them out, with Pip feeling he has confessed all. I cannot see that Jaggers admires Drummle. There is more of assessment than admiration in Jaggers' observation. He sees trouble...or more business in the way of lawsuits.

[Jonathan]

There is a good reason why Paris became the perfume capital of the world. Medieval Paris was the stinkiest place in the world, so, to improve it's image....

[marcie]

Good points about the scented soap covering up the bad smells of the city and the people and prisons that are part of Jaggers' environment. Dickens does focus on specific attributes to give life to some of his characters... the hand washing and the finger biting for Jaggers.

In the next chapter we see Joe again. How do you feel about his meeting with Pip? What do you think Joe understands about Pip's responses to him?

[Babi]

 Ah, good point, FRYBABE. It's easy to forget about the prevailing odors of London.
The upper classes carried scented handkerchiefs to shut out as much of it as possible.
I can see where scented soaps, perfumes, and the like would be widely used. JUDE also
points out the stress of Jaggers' work and the likelihood that the constant washing is a
compulsive response. Then Jonathan points out that Jaggers would be expectd to report to
his client on Pip's progress. All in all, I think our readers have a good grasp of Jaggers'
character.

 

How does Pip get even with Orlick?

Pip takes action to get Orlick discharged
from his job with Miss Havisham.  I think this may have been a serious mistake.  I understand
his concerns, but Orlick must know Pip is responsible and he is bound to resent it deeply.  I
fear Pip will be dealing with repercussions from his decision on down the road.

[PatH]

Pip takes action to get Orlick discharged from his job with Miss Havisham.  I think this may have been a serious mistake.  I understand
his concerns, but Orlick must know Pip is responsible and he is bound to resent it deeply.  I
fear Pip will be dealing with repercussions from his decision on down the road.

I fear so too.  Pip is partly motivated by revenge, but might feel he had to do this anyway.  He knows Orlick is violent, suspects he is Mrs. Joe's attacker; it's hardly safe for him to be the "protector" of a helpless old woman.

[JoanP]

Another example of Pip's character split - split personality?  He's outraged that dangerous Orlick is working at the home of the helpless Miss Havisham - so outraged that he reports to Mr. Jaggers, resulting in his dismissal from Satis House.  BUT - he was not at all concerned when the dangerous man worked in the forge and spent time in the kitchen with his helpless sister.  Maybe Pip thought Joe would protect her.  Still...

[Frybabe]

These last few chapters seem to center around or include dinners.

I don't like the way Pip treats his former friends and family while on his visit to Satis House. He doesn't take "the Avenger" with him for fear the fellow will discover his humble beginnings or gossip about his life in London. He writes a nasty letter to the tailor about the encounters with the Trabb boy. The Trabb boy doesn't seem very smart to me, but then didn't Pip bring on some of the ribbing with his pretentious and snobbish attitude toward his former acquaintances. Was he afraid that his humble previous life would follow him back to London and put him up for ridicule? Who is he trying to impress anyway? Ms. H, Estella, Jaggars, Herbert and the Pockets already know about his good fortune. Jaggars was clear on the point of class seperation wasn't he? To become a gentleman Pip is expected to cast off old friends and acquire new higher class friends. His lower class friends and family were to be treated as such or ignored entirely. 

[PatH]

Chapter VIII (XXVII) was really painful to read.  I could hardly stand to see Pip treat Joe so shabbily.  Joe is uncomfortable, intimidated by the gentlemanly surroundings, knows he is out of place, but Pip could have made things better by showing some of his old love and comradeship.  Joe sees the situation clearly, and sums it up with touching dignity.

[marcie]

Pip seems to realize that he's completely overpowered by his feelings for Estella but he can't change. He can summon good intentions toward Joe.... for an instant... but then his view of himself through Estella's eyes makes him turn his back on Joe. It is painful to read that. Miss Havisham has already been successful in bringing Pip down, through Estella. He's not the sensitive and essentially good boy he was when he gave the prisoner food. He has been changed by Estella. I'm wondering how much he would have changed even without his "great expectations" since he's had the same feelings for Estella almost from the beginning of his "play" time with her.

[Babi]

 Pip's behavior on his trip home was pretty bad, FRYBABE. I think he was most upset with
Trapp's boy because he has become accustomed to being greeted and treated respectfully.
He is probably still insecure in his new role and got very upset to be treated in the old
way.

 It's true, MARCIE, that Pip's feelings for Estella were the same before his good(?)
fortune.  But he knew quite well they were hopeless and could only pine from afar. His
experience with Havisham house did some harm in making him unhappy with his lot, but he
would have learned to live with it from sheer necessity. It was the belief that he could
obtain his dream through his new expectations that led him to turn his back on those who
cared most for him.

 What really set my teeth on edge is learning that Bumblechook(?) has the entire village
believing he is Pip's great friend, childhood mentor and suporter, source of all his
good fortune, etc., etc.  I would love, just once, to see that self-seeking old fraud
exposed for what he really is.

[marcie]

Babi, yes his great expectations has given Pip the impetus to gravitate toward Estella and away from Joe and Biddy. His strong belief that Miss Havisham is his benefactor, though he's been told not to speculate, motivates him even more.

I agree about Pumblechook. What a fraud! Dickens is great at creating that type of character.

[PatH]

In London, Joe tells Pip that the only way seeing each other could work is if Pip would come to the forge, see Joe in his own place, where he fits in, is "right".  So here is Pip's perfect chance--surprise Joe at the forge, talk on the old terms.  He keeps weakly shying away from this.  First, he'll stay at the Blue Boar because he isn't expected.  Then, he arrives after dark, too late to visit.  The next day, Estella delivers the death-blow: "...what was fit company for you once, would be very unfit company for you now."  Pip sneaks back to London without visiting Joe, and salves his conscience by sending a barrel of oysters.  (A footnote says that wasn't a particularly expensive gift.)

[Jonathan]

Pip is trying so hard to play his new role as gentleman. And is laughed at for his trouble by some, like the Trabb's boy. And Drummle? Pip, playing the gentleman, is laughed at by some just as Wopsle, playing Hamlet, is laughed at by some in the theater. What a performance. No doubt both will eventually feel comfortable in their roles.

But it may just be that Pip's self-examination will never cease. With the endless explanations. Here's a good one, from that painful Chapter VIII:

'So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise.'

This follows his earlier statement, in which he prepared to justify his deplorable treatment of Joe:

'Let me confess exactly, with what feelings I looked forward to Joe's coming.'

We know that Joe is an embarrassment for Pip, when seen through Estella's eyes. But he is not going to blame her, the light of his life, for his mean, ungentlemanly behavior with Joe. He finds another source for his conduct:

'...I had the sharpest sensitiveness as to his (Joe's) being seen by Drummle, whom I held in contempt.'

Here's a good one on looks: Estella,'Proud and wilful as of old, she had brought those qualities into such subjection to her beauty that it was impossible and out of nature - or I thought so - to seperate them from her beauty.'

And how about this new light on Mr Jaggers: 'He kept  his very looks to himself.'

[JoanP]

"CHARLES Dickens was a control freak who displayed many of the symptoms of mild obsessive compulsive disorder, a new biography of the writer says. "

A novel look at obsessive Charles Dickens
Jude made an interesting observation the other day about a possible obsessive/compulsive disorder in  Mr. Jaggers.  Turns out the same can be said of a number of his characters.  Turns out too,  that many also thought Dickens had the same obsessive compulsive disorder.  What do you think?  Was Jaggers attempting to get control of  the part of his life that he abhorred?

Would it be too much of a stretch to say that Pip is obsessed with Estella?  Do you see any hope for him in the future?

[JoanP]

"throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise."

Jonathan, I was just going to say that I don't like Pip much - he lacks character and integrity.  But then I read something like this - Dickens seems to be condemning all of us with the same faults that Pip is exhibiting.   Is he, after all, as weak as every one of us?

Did you notice that Pip becomes impatient with Joe - for calling him, Mr. Pip?  Why does this annoy Pip?  Is it because he knows deep down, that he has done nothing to deserve this honorable address?

What of Joe - and Biddy?  Are these two characters faultless in Dickens' eyes?  Is Dickens saying that they escaped the same weaknesses and meannesses - simply because they are poor - and humble?

[marcie]

Pat, yes, I was struck by the fact that Pip doesn't visit Joe  (sends the oysters instead) but after Wopsle is laughed at during his theater performance and Pip and Pocket visit him in his tiny dressing room, Pip feels sorry for Wopsle and invites him to dinner at  their apartment. I wish his sensitivity would have been awakened to Joe.

Jonathan, those are such good excerpts to show how well Dickens captures human frailties and other qualities.

JoanP, I don't recall reading about any character faults in Joe or Biddy but I don't get the impression that is because they are poor but likely because they are both humble and careful of the feelings of others. I don't see either of them treating Pip or anyone else with disdain if they were to be given great expectations.

[marcie]

I just re-read the section with Wopsle's performance and the reaction of the audience to the actors. Dickens must have seen some less than stellar performances of Shakespeare to come up with all of those parodies of various scenes. I was laughing out loud at some of them.

I also was struck by Herbert Pocket's trying to dissuade Pip from what he sees as a bad alliance with Estella. Pip seems to agree that it can't go well but he confesses that he can't even try to stop himself.

[Babi]

 I think it entirely reasonable to say Pip is obseesed with Estella, JOANP.  What else
could it be called, considering that he fully recognizes her pride, haughtiness and
indifference to his happiness.  Any hope for him?  I really don't know. I simply don't
know enough about obsessive behavior.
  I think any of us, in certain circumstances, could be quilty of some mean or petty
action. We might immediately be ashamed of it, but that doesn't change anything. If
someone is greatly upset and angry, they don't usually stop and think before lashing out.
  Pip's more shameful behavior can be traced to his fear of losing status in Estella's eyes or
his anger at Drummle's contemptuous behavior toward him.  Where his new role of gentleman
is concerned, he is most insecure and anxious, imo.

[PatH]

It's interesting that Pip feels no embarrassment at entertaining Wopsle.  This is probably because although Wopsle is an old acquaintance, he isn't closely connected to Pip, so his character doesn't reflect on Pip, can't be considered part of Pip.

Herbert, not having fallen for Estella, sees her clearly.  His warning is thoughtful: look at Miss Havisham, consider what she's like, and that she has raised Estella.

[marcie]

Babi, yes I agree. Pip is obsessed with Estella. Even before Pip confesses his love of Estella, Herbert knows that almost all of Pip's waking (and sleeping) thoughts are of her.

PatH, I'm wondering if Dickens wants us to remember Pip's kind nature in his invitation Wopsle to dine with him and Herbert. It seems a little inconsistent of his shunning of Joe and others in his town to actually invite him to dinner. Probably Wopsle is considered by Pip to be at a higher level in society than Joe since he has his presumed thespian talents.

Herbert knows that Pip doesn't want to hear it, but he does try to warn Pip about Estella. As you say, Pat, he tells him to consider what Miss Havisham is like and her hold on Estella.

[JoanP]

"Pip is obsessed with Estella. Even before Pip confesses his love of Estella, Herbert knows."

Poor Pip.  Poor Dickens.  I can almost feel his remembered pain and frustration as he pours himself into Pip's character.   Ths saddest part is Pip's acknowledgement that "he did not invest her with any attributes, save those she possessed - a pretty face.  He loved her simply because he found her irresistable - loved her against reason, against promise, hope, happiness."
What kind of a future would Pip have with a woman like this?  He knows what to expect, yet he seems unable to break the spell she has over him.

Just as Miss Havisham has taught Estella all that  she knows and expects from love, she is instructing Pip in the same way.  "Real love is blind devotion," she tells him - humiliation, utter submission, giving up heart and soul.  And Pip believes her!

To be fair to him, he seems to experience bouts of reality - feelings for Joe.  I think he really does intend to go to see him, but each time he is distracted by Estella and what she thinks of him.  His plans never materialize.  He can't seem to fit Joe in with his new life.

I can't help but wonder what a different story this would be if Pip had no "expectations...if he had laid eyes on Estella when he was a  boy at Satis House, but had no other future except at the forge with Joe - and Biddy.   It's the promise of becoming a gentleman  that has made all the difference, isn't it?

Marcie - I thought it was funny too that Pip sent Joe the barrel of oysters when he returned to London...they must have been plentiful on the marshes where Joe lived.  Actually, I don't know where oysters dwell, but surely near where Joe lives... What was Joe's reaction when he received them - and realized that Pip must have left for London and sent him the oysters instead of coming out to the forge.  Gee, he didn't even stop in to see his sister...

[marcie]

Joan, I could see Pip not stopping to see his sister. She might not even recognize him and I don't think that he is very attached to her. She raised him  by a very quick, hard hand. But he truly seems to love Joe. His responses to Estella are as if she is a drug to which he is addicted.

[JoanP]

"But he truly seems to love Joe."

 
Marcie, I agree that Pip was detached from his sister - but now you have me thinking about his feelings for Joe.  Joe has always been there, as long as Pip can remember.  Wasn't he described earlier more as a playmate?  He tells Joe that Pumblechook  is not telling the truth - that it was Joe who brought him up from the time he was a baby.  There seems to be a gradual realization of his feelings for Joe - but I'm not sure that he feels "love"  for Joe.  I'm not sensing that Pip knew what if felt like to love anyone - before he laid eyes on Estella - and concluded that his attraction to her beauty must be love.  

Maybe it wasn't even Estella's beauty that mesmorized Pip - maybe it was the fact that she was unattainable - that he was not good enough.  And now he is on the road to becoming rich enough...looking and sounding like the gentleman - certain that she is destined to become his wife...but realizing this will be a loveless relationship - unless he can find a way to melt her heart.  What a hopeless situation!  I don't think that Pip believes he will be able to do this   What do you think is Dickens' message here?

I can't decide if he intended this to be a romance or a tragedy, can you?  There seems to be no solution that will provide a happy ending.  I understand that Dickens wrote two endings to the story - indicating that he was of two minds about how to end it.   Can you see Pip melting Estella's heart - and living on, happily ever after with her  in Satis House?  Or do you see him coming to his senses, facing reality -  and returning to the forge to live a simple happy life with Biddy and Joe?  At this point in the story, how do you foresee the ending?

[Frybabe]

I have to wonder through all of this whether Pip was experiencing true love or was in the grips of a long standing crush.

[JoanP]

I agree, Fry...except for the fact that a crush doesn't last this long  in my mind- how many years has it been?  A crush you get over in time.  You outgrow it.    A "long-standing crush"  has to be called an obsession.  How do you get past an obsession?

[JoanK]

"It's the promise of becoming a gentleman  that has made all the difference, isn't it?"

Not quite. Before he received that promise, he had already become dissatisfied with himself and his surroundings. I don't think he would have ever been the same again. He would have stayed where he was, but been bitter, or found a way to leave to an uncertain future.

[JoanK]

To go back a ways, someone called Jaggars dinner party "innocent". I disagree: I found it very sinister! Clearly, Jaggars is up to something, and he makes my spine crawl.

[Jonathan]

Two endings? To this tragic romance? Or this romantic tragedy? Imagine being instructed in love by Miss Havisham!

It started with the crush. After that came the obsession, the infatuation, the addiction. Pip is spell-bound. No man lives on happily for ever-after, after that. Pip loves Estella as she is. Melting her heart is risky. The haughtiness, the severity draw him to her. Not like the pins and needles in his sister's bib, which prevented him from getting close to her. Doesn't Dickens find all the emotional and psychological nooks and crannies our human nature. You are finding them all in your posts.

From Babi: 'I would love, just once, to see that self-seeking old fraud (Pumblechook) exposed for what he really is.'

And the answer from Marcie: 'What a fraud! Dickens is great at creating that type of character.'

Who is honest in this amazing tale? Is Pip being honest with himself? He seems to see what is happening to him. Where his ambition is taking him. What his love is doing to him.

[marcie]

JoanP, you make a good point asking if Pip realizes what love is. He's had a difficult emotional life. His parents died when he was an infant. His older sister raised him by hand...as Jonathan says, the pins and needles in her bib preventing him from getting close to her. He has seemed to have been close to Joe but now I too am wondering if he truly felt loved by Joe and felt moved to love Joe.

JoanK, I agree that once he came under the spell of Miss Havisham and Estella he was dissatisfied with his life.

I don't know how Estella could change after being raised by the fanatical Miss Havisham with only one purpose in mind...to get revenge on all men. Let's see if there are any cracks in her armour in the next chapters.

[Babi]

  We're moving into a new section this morning. We find Estella greatly amused by the idea
that the greedy relatives could harm Pip's 'expectations'. Pip feels that her laughter is
immoderate, but he couldn't think why. "I thought there must really be something more than
I knew."  He skirts all around the truth, but is so firmly convinced of his false misconception
that he can never adjust his thinking. And really, to be fair, what other possible source for this
windfall could there be in Pip's mind?

 

I don't know how Estella could change after being raised by the fanatical Miss Havisham with only one purpose in mind...

  I suppose such a change could be possible, MARCIE,
and I would love to see it, but we all know how deep-rooted the earliest impressions are. It would
take something pretty drastic to change Estella now. 

[JoanP]

A quick question before moving leaving Satis House - and on to Richmond with Estella.  On more than one occasion Dickens describes Sarah Pocket in terms of "green and yellow."  What does this mean to you?  Pat, does your Norton mention this?  My guess is that these colors refer to her aging complexion...but green?  Pip refers to her as "Miss Pocket."  Do you think she is Matthew's sister?  Herbert's aunt?  We know only for sure that she is a cousin of Miss Havisham.
There's another description using green and yellow coming up in the next chapters.

JoanK, don't you wonder about Mr. Jaggers' appearance at Satis House - usually when Pip is there?  Do you think it's odd - or does it make perfect sense since he is Miss Havisham's solicitor. He scares me too.  I think he's another one without a heart.

[JoanP]

"I don't recall reading about any character faults in Joe or Biddy."  Marcie  

The narrator seems to be an older, wiser Pip.  In looking back at his callous behaviour, he sees Joe and Biddy totally blameless, undeserving of how he treated them.
I wonder if you see Pip's character developing as he grows older.  At the start, he's a lonely, unloved boy, sitting in the graveyard, studying his parents'  tombstone.  Joe is a friend,  a playmate,  who made life with Pip's sister bearable.  Biddy?  I don't see a love story there.  She was a school friend, willing to share her knowledge with Pip.  She comes to live at the forge after the attack - willing to listen to Pip's dreams of the future.  But I don't see a love interest here - at least on Pip's side.  Biddy may have other hopes.  

Pip is a young boy when he lays eyes on Estella.  He thinks her beauty irresistable - is this love?  Pip thinks so.  
Every once in a while there's a hint that Pip recognizes Joe's admirable qualities and seems to want to make things right with him.  When he heard that Pumblechook was claiming to have helped Pip when a little child, he recognizes that it was Joe who was there for him, not Pumble.  Babi - I remember how strongly you felt about  Skimpole in Bleak House.  The same sort of visceral reaction!

What I'm seeing is a developing awareness of what true love is - not the maxims taught to him by the jaded Miss Havisham.  How could he possibly think that this obviously demented woman knew anything about life - and love?  I know, I know - she's promising him Estella.  An irresistable reason to obey her.
But he's also seeing more of Estella's faults now...but still, that face...  
Babi - the next chapters will tell the story - whether Pip's obvious love for Estella will melt her heart.   Isn't it too much to think that DIckens would create a believable character -without any heart at all?  Even in fairy tales, the ogre has a heart.

[Jonathan]

Quote from JoanP: 'Jaggers scares me too. I think he's another one without a heart.'

And JoanK finds him sinister!

Pip, with Jaggers hovering over him in his office is reminded of the convict hovering over him after setting him on the tombstone years ago.

Herbert feels guilty in his presence.

And Jaggers? He feels contaminated in everyone's company! He knows it's a heartless world.

So, it's very encouraging to hear that the tale is a search for true love. I like to think we'll find it. With dear hearts all around.

How could Pip possibly have any romantic interest in Biddy? But she has always been a wonderful confidante. And a wise counsellor. She did have him convinced that life in the village, and life as a blacksmith, were pleasant enough, until Jaggers came along with his news of great expectations.

Interesting thing with the colors and Sarah Pocket. Perhaps she's showing her age. Green and yellow. Traditionally, they convey the impression of envy and prejudice, respectively. Sometimes I wonder if Dickens had a heart. Certainly not for the characters he didn't like.

[marcie]

During Pip's early struggles to try to forget about Estella (which he could never do) didn't he sometimes think that he would marry Biddy? Neither his "love" for Estella nor his idea about "keeping company" with Biddy were ever fully formed.

From Biddy's reactions to him, it seemed to me that she did have feelings for Pip.

Jonathan, you say, "Sometimes I wonder if Dickens had a heart. Certainly not for the characters he didn't like." LOL. What a good observation. Dickens could be very cutting, down to specific details.

[Babi]

 You are so right, JOANP. Dickens is amazing in his ability to produce characters, like
Pumblechook and Stimpole, that I really love to detest! It isn't only that they are such
outrageous self-servers..they seem to be geting away with it!!
  I do see the steady growth in Pip, the keener awareness of both possibilities and
shortcomings. It's a difficult age for anyone, learning who you really are and what
really matters. As MARCIE notes, his judgment is still not 'fully formed'.

 Still, Pip is intelligent enough to be aware of what he is doing. "Whatever her tone
with me happened to be, I could put no trust in it, and build no hope in it; and yet I
went against trust and against hope."  I can't understand this, but I do realize that it
is not an uncommon thing.  How many people, women as well as men, have found themselves
in a miserable relationship, yet unable to break free of it?

 Hmm,..I wonder. Are we again seeing a bit of Dickens' life here?