GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

           
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                   150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX VOLUME 2 July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV) July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII) August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX) VOLUME 3 August 12-18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)

Chapter XIV (XXXIII)

1.  Do you find a comment that seems to be the centre of this chapter? Which one is it?  And why?

2.  Pip has another one of those sudden flares of light that touched a hidden memory.  What do you think may have triggered it?


Chapter XV (XXXIV)

1.  What further burden to his conscience now troubles Pip?

2.  What was the 'gay fiction' of the two friends, Pip and Herbert?  Have you had, or observed, similar situations?

3.  What do you think of Pip and Herbert's method of "looking into our affairs"?

 
Chapter XVI (XXXV)

1.  How did Pip cope with his sister's death?

2.  Has Pip's behavior toward Biddy changed?  What is your reaction to each of them  from their conversation together?
 
 
Chapter XVII  (XXXVI)

1.  Can you suggest a reason why answering Pip's questions about his benefactor could  compromise Jaggers?

2.  What is the first thing Pip did with his new income? What does this say to us about him?

Chapter XVIII  (XXXVII)

1.  Wemmick has two personas. How does he keep them separate? What does his say to  us about him?

2.  What explanation does Wemmick give for his decision to assist Pip in his giving away of 'portable property'?

3.  What is your impression of Miss Skiffins?

Chapter XIX  (XXXVIII)

1.  What new development emerges in Miss Havisham's plans for Estella?

2.  How does Pip explain Estella's attitude to support his own delusion?

3.  What is the basis of the quarrel between Miss Havisham and Estella?  What is  Estella's position. How does she explain it?

Chapter XX  (XXXIX)

1.  The day of revelation has arrived. What hopes and dreams , what 'great expectations',  does Pip's benefactor hold towards him?  What is Pip's reaction to the news?

2.  Why, do you think, did Pip's benefactor make this a life's goal?

3.  What great risk is the benefactor taking?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;  Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856;    Map of London 1851

 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

[JoanP]

An interesting question, Babi.   About Dickens - and the rest of us...

"How many people, women as well as men, have found themselves  in a miserable relationship, yet unable to break free of it?"  It's probably a mistake to admit a personal response to this question...but I will, if only to say that it takes a determined effort to break free.  And add -  it is never really completely overcome.

So  Miss Havisham has made arrangements for  Estella is to live in Richmond - with a family that will introduce her to the the right people - ...  Doesn't Pip believe that Miss H intends for him to marry Estella?  Does the fact that she is sending Estella to be admired by others indicate otherwise?  How does Pip take this news?  

And Estella - "we have no choice, you and I, but to obey instructions, not free to follow our own devices."  Like puppets.  Does this suggest that Estella would choose Pip if left to her own devices, but that Miss H has other plans for her.  Where does this leave Pip?  Do you understand Estella - at all?

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Still, Pip is intelligent enough to be aware of what he is doing. "Whatever her tone
with me happened to be, I could put no trust in it, and build no hope in it; and yet I
went against trust and against hope." I can't understand this, but I do realize that it
is not an uncommon thing.  How many people, women as well as men, have found themselves
in a miserable relationship, yet unable to break free of it?

have heard many times remarks on why abused children want desperately to go back to their abuser parent---perhaps hope? perhaps that they can change this behaviour, the tight bond with a parent that the child just can't let go....remember reading ''A Child called 'It"---emotional refusal to break the bond that ties ones to a nurturer, especially if there are tiny -rays of hope-  (tiny little temptations of nice behaviour thrown out as --a carrot held in front of a horse)

what keeps one in these circles; not allowing one to step outside and see the real picture--the interference of the emotional noose --where in Dicken's life did he get this tie {I'm wondering as well Babi--where did this come from}and depict it for such a segment in this book....seems the gentle people now I am speaking of Biddy & Joe, seem to be pushed aside in his life, and their influence could have led to such a different outcome

seems like the human soul struggles and prefers to run with 'adventure, the unpredictable, excitement' --(Estella & Jenkins--even their names sound a sinister)rather than a harmonious compatible,--(Biddy & Joe)

Deb

[Babi]

 What an interesting observation, BOOKAD. You are right, Dickens does use simple straight-
forward names for his favorite simple, straightforwad people. Doesn't 'Biddy' bring up the
image of a gentle, motherly type of woman? And we find odd names to help identify
those he despises. Like 'Pumblechook'.  Or simply to give a clue as to the character's
true nature. I mean, what is one to think of a name like "Chuzzlewit"?

  A small query.  After a colordul description of green farthingales, diamond-hilted swords, red-
heeled shoes and a blue solitarire, Dickens cites the "cherry-colored maids".  What do you think
he meant by that?  Red-faced?  Red uniforms? (surely not!) 

 Another lovely tongue-in-cheek line from our author.  "So now, as an infallible way of making
little ease great, I began to contract a quantity of debt."  
   

[marcie]

JoanP, yes Miss Havisham has made puppets of both Estella and Pip. What a grip she has had on Estella since infancy and now, through Estella, on Pip.

Bookad, it does seem that Pip is in the role of the abused child who keeps coming back for more of the same. Was his first experience of abuse from his sister? Was he raised in an abusive relationship? If so, that might help to explain his inability to extract himself from Estella.

Babi, some of the scenes depicting the debt of Pip and Herbert, though a sad subject, are hilarious. The way that Pip goes about counting his debts and wrapping the bills in a neat bundle. He says it engenders the same satisfaction of actually paying the bills.

I'm wondering how Jaggers let Pip get into such debt. I thought he was to keep an eye on him.

Babi, I was wondering the same thing about the description of "cherry-colored maids." Maybe their ruddy complexion? Or there is a "Red Maids School" in Bristol, founded in 1634. There is a photo of some students wearing red cloaks at http://kleurrijkbrontesisters.blogspot.com/2011/05/catherine-and-suzanne-winkworth.html.

[Frybabe]

I don't think Jaggers ever said just how much Pip was likely to receive. Perhaps if he knew there was a limit, he would have been a little more careful. But I doubt it. He wasn't staying in his budget was he. I thought Jagger's had him on an allowance of so much a month. Even when he reached 21, it appears he is to get a budget of 500 pounds a year. Seems awful small these days.

[JoanK]

What an interesting link, Marcie.

[JoanP]

"The Red Maids' school was founded in 1634 from the bequest of John Whitson, Mayor and MP of Bristol, making it the oldest surviving girls' school in England at over 375 years old. His original Red Maids’ Hospital provided a secure home for the orphaned or destitute daughters of freemen or burgesses of the City of Bristol, where they were taught to read and sew."
 

So like Dickens to include the reference to the orphaned and destitute.  The school is quite different now, though, you have to apply and pass tests to get in - but the uniform is still "cherry coloured" as it has been for centuries.

You get the impression that this is quite a fancy home where Estella will be staying - and presented to the creme of society.  Estella tells Pip that the Havisham cousins hate him - they are watching him - and report to Miss Havisham.   To soften the news, she tells Pip they hate her too.  She's to inherit the Havisham fortune.  If she had not been adopted, the fortune would have been hers.
I can understand why they'd resent Estella, but why do they hate Pip?  Do they suspect that Miss H is financing his education?  Or do they think that Pip and Estella will marry?  Where would they get that information?

Deb - that's an interesting observation.  I think I'm going to watch all of the names Dickens' gives his characters from now on.  I'd been thinking that some of them were quite unusual...Pumblechook, Dremmle, Tulkinghorn...etc.  And others were such simple familiar names.  Now I'm going to consider those with the made up names as suspect.  Thanks!

 

[JoanP]

Fry - I think that Jaggers is just doing his job, following instructions - handing Pip a fixed amount every month.  His job doesn't seem to include keeping an eye on Pip.  So when the allowance is gone each month, Pip is gambling or borrowing.  He's getting into trouble, but that's not Jaggers' business.  Others may disagree...see Jaggers differently.

[Frybabe]

I have been assuming that the Pocket pack suspect that Ms. H. is Pip's benefactor just as he himself does. They saw him as an unwelcome intrusion when he visited to play with Estella and walk Ms. H.

Did Dickens ever say how Sarah Pocket came to be a permanent fixture at Satis House? I don't recall, only that she was staying there after Pip was dismissed from his duties. Personally, I'd be afraid to let any of the greedy vultures near the place for any length of time.

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I am surprised that the benefactor in dispensing money thru Jaggers would not set have set Pip up with someone who had more concern for his welfare....someone who was concerned that he received what he was due and would also offer advice and be concerned enough to keep an eye on Pip with his new wealth

Deb

[Jonathan]

Help me out. With those two illustrations in the header. I can identify Pip with his reading lamp greeting Magwitch on the stairs, but who are the four in the drawing on the left?

We've heard so much from Pip, about his painful childhood. Now Estella is given an opportunity to talk about hers. (Ch XIV) Horrors! 'You were not brought up in that strange house from a mere baby. I was. You had not your little wits sharpened by their (the Pockets) intriguing against you. I had.

Who does Estella mean by 'that imposter of a woman who calculates her stores of peace of mind for when she wakes up in the night.' like 'I did.'

Pip is living the life his patron wishes for him. Not so with Estella. She's being played with. And doesn't like it. But the truth has caught up with Pip, and he is horrified. Are Mrs Havisham and Magwitch living vicarious lives with their machinations? This is getting sinister.

[JoanP]

I keep wondering who Sarah Pocket is, Fry - and why she stays on at Satis House, when the other cousins are not welcome visitors.   Pip continues to refer to her yellow and greeness.  Did you notice her at dinner when Mr. Jaggers, Estella, Pip and his "green and yellow friend" dined together?   She seemed to grow "greener and  yellower"  at the sight of Pip.  Jonathan suggests the green  may indicate envy.  Not too sure about the yellow.

"I  am surprised that the benefactor in dispensing money thru Jaggers would not set have set Pip up with someone who had more concern for his welfare..."
Deb - now that we have met  the  benefactor, are you surprised at his lack of wisdom and concern?  I wasn't.
 

[JoanP]

Jonathan, Pip had a better childhood than Estella, didn't he?  He's not as messed up as Estella - and will have loving people to fall back on if things go wrong for him - and it seems he's on a downward spiral.  Who does Estella have in her corner?

An interesting question about that first illustration in the heading -

Unfortunately there were no titles with these illustrations from the Stanford Project.  Most of them are self explanatory - -
I can tell you what I thought this one was about -

THat's either the Avenger, helping his master dress for his meeting with that ridiculous drinking club - the Finches -- or is it Herbert getting Pip into his boots?  Though it could also be Pip booting up a reluctant Herbert.  What do you think?  That seems  to be  Dremmle and  Startop waiting for them at the door for another night on the town...  

[Babi]

 A 'Red Maids School'!  What a wonderful find, MARCIE. I don't know if that was what
Dickens was referring to but they were obviously still around.

 Pip was left an orphan while still a nursing infant, if you recall. So he has been in
his sister's dubious care all his life.  Really, I think the only thing that saved him
from being totally ruined was what protection and affection Joe could give him.

 On the question of Jaggers responsibly as to monitoring Pip's expenditures, it occurs to
me that profligacy was sort of expected of 'young gentlemen' of the day. Fathers were
always having to cover the debts of their male offspring while they 'sowed their oats'.
Perhaps Jaggers regarded this as part of Pip's education.

 I agree with FRYBABE. It seems fairly plain that the Havisham relatives have fallen into
the same error as Pip and everyone else. Miss Havisham MUST be the benefactor; who else is
there? So of course they bitterly resent every penny that goes to him.
  As to the choice of Jaggers, Magwitch know him as an agent that will do what he has
contracted to do, to the letter, which is exactly what Magwitch needs. He can't be
supervising from overseas.

 Thanks for the input on that illustration,  JOANP.  I hadn't a clue; thought someone had a leg
injury, which I couldn't remember happening.

[marcie]

I thought I remembered Jaggers or Wemmick saying something to Pip about his money the first day that Pip met them. I looked back at the very end of Chapter XXI and it says that his guardian told him how much his (liberal) allowance was to be and Jaggers hands him the cards of various tradesmen he is to deal with. He tells  him "You will find your credit good. Mr. Pip... but I shall by this means to be able to check on your bills, and o pull you up if I find you outrunning the constable. Of course you'll go wrong somehow, but that's no fault of mine."

I'm now wondering if Pip is into debt with people not among the tradesmen that Jaggers told him to use or if, as you say Babi, that Jaggers is regarding Pip's debts as part of his education.

[marcie]

I think that picture is of the tailor peeling off those stockings from Wopsle after his ridiculous performance at the theater, with Pip and Herbert looking on from the door since they didn't fit in the small dressing room.

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the help. Of course, that's what it must be. Wopsle being helped out of his costume, after coming off the stage. I believe Hamlet was wearing  a festooned hat of some kind. Which chapter was that? It is worth rereading.

I think Pip is working very hard at playing the gentleman, debts and all. I like the way you put it, Babi. Pip is very conscientious in being honest with himself, and it would have been reassuring to have Jaggers tell him, I'll help you if you get into trouble. Jaggers is very professional.

'...not as messed up as Estella' How true, JoanP. I can't help remembering that behind these two young people, Estella and Pip, are two messed up adults, Miss Havisham and Magwitch. What sorry lives. How will it ever end?

[JudeS]

Hi
Had a wonderful time at our reunion in Portland. Visited the largest bookstore in North America. The street with 70, yes seventy food carts, Mount Hood, travelled the length of the Columbia River, the gorgeous Chinese Gardens etc. ets. Saw folks that I haven't seen in many years and made  some new friends too.

Now back to GE.
I want to answer question #1.But in a different way. (Did you finf a comment that seems to be the center of the chapter.?)

I went through the whole group of chapters for this week and found three  paragraphs that, for me, show the development of our main characters-Pip and Estella- and their growtth into adulthood. Like most people that period from 18 to 21 involves  misery, stupidity and the beginnings of adult wisdom.(Remember the word 'Angst".)

Chapt. 25: Pip re self
"......We were always more or less miserable, and most of our acquaintances were in the same condition. There was a gay fiction among us that we were constantly enjoying ourselves, and a skeleton truth that we never did."

Chapt. XVIII:Pip re Estella
"....there were.....operas, concerts, parties, all sorts of pleasuresthrough which I persued her- and they were all miseries to me. I never had one hours happinessin her society, and yet my mind all around the four and twenty hours was harping on having her with me unto death."

Chapt. XIX: Estella to Miss H
".....Mother by adoption, I have said that I owe everything to you. All I possess is freely yours. All that you have given me , is at your command to have again. Beyond that I have nothing. And if you ask me to give you what you never gave me, my gratitude and duty cannot do impossibilities."

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JudeS-I love those quotes --I am reading this book on Gutenberg on my blackberry playbook--but think I will look around for a e-book reader that allows for underlining, highlighting, writing notes--hard to go back chapters except thru books like Barron's notes or something like that--but their summaries don't help for backtracking.

I guess each age one gains one might feel so 'in charge of things' until the next age when one realizes the truth of the situation...and so it continues...the truths becoming hindsight so to speak!!!!

Deb

[Frybabe]

Sounds like you had a terrific time, JudeS. It's great to have you back though.

[JoanP]

Yes, welcome back, Jude.  Sounds like a great break!  And you made some new friends too.  Icing on the cake!

"...and so it continues...the truths becoming hindsight so to speak!!!!" Now that's deep, Deb! I have to give some thought to each of your posts, but first, I need to try to fix something, if I can.

Jonathan, the chapter that described Mr. Wopsle's performance was an earlier one - depending on the edition you are reading - chapter XII or chapter XXXI, I think.  That illustration should not have appeared in this heading since it did not illustrate the chapters we are reading this week.  For the last half hour, I've tried to figure out where it belongs...with no success.  I've decided to  pull up my stockings and carry on from here.  
Marcie was right in her interpretation of that illustration of course...the funny scene in Mr. Wopsle's dressing room is worth rereading.  I liked it because Pip was truly enjoying himself - comfortable with this old acquaintance...taking him to dinner.  Pie still has ties to his old life - and that seems important as we move on.

OK - here's another quiz for you...the illustration that belongs with Chapters XIX-XX or  {XXXVII- XXXIX} is this one -
Do you remember a scene like this?  I don't, but I'll put it up where it belongs in the heading.

Will return after lunch to catch up with your posts here...before the double sets of Roman numbers drive me crazy!

[PatH]

Yes--Chapter XXXVII.  Pip is visiting Wemmick to get private advice.  That's the Aged sitting in a corner reading the paper, Pip is sitting by himself, and Wemmick and Miss Skiffins are sitting together, with Wemmick's arm alternately stealing around Miss Skiffins' waist and being firmly put back in its place by Miss S.

[JoanK]

JUDE: that sounds great! I love Powells bookstore and the Japanese gardens even though I've never been there from the descriptions of my sister and nieces.

[PatH]

There are two gardens to choose from in Portland, Japanese and Chinese, and it's a tough choice.

Chinese, that Jude saw:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1265.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1096.jpg


Japnese:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0888.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0891.jpg

[JoanK]

Tough choice indeed! you'll just have to go back and compare!

I love the dragon!

[JudeS]

Pat
Thanks so much for the photos of the Chiinese gardens!
Didn't know there were also Japanese gadens.
Did you take those lovely views?
What a vibrant place Portland is. What an amazing bookstore was Powells.  Like a Book Palace full of wonderful choices and thronging with people. If I lived there I would be a regular visitor.

[Babi]

 Oh, excellent, JUDE! Your choices really put the situations into a nutshell. And may I say I'm so glad you're back, and I would have been torn with indecision on that street with the 70 food carts.

 Oh, indeed, DEB. That is what much of our vaunted 'experience' and 'wisdom' consists of.. hindsight!  

 Ah, yes. After some thought I can place that illustration, JOAN. Remember Pip, Wemmick and his ladyfriend delighting Wemmick's father by listening while he read the newspaper? That was such a pleasant, heartwarming time. Ah, I see PatH recognized it, too. I had forgotten about the 'traveling arm' game. I do love these little touches Dickens gives his scenes.

 Beautiful gardens, PAT. Isn't it interesting how different the two are, despite both being near neighbors. The Japanese gardens do appear to me more tranquil. I guess if you live in such a small, crowded country, tranquil must be of great importance.

  To switch from the pleasant Wemmick household to the far less pleasant
Pocket household,  I am faced again with Mrs. Pocket.  Does she remnd
you of some other Dickens characters we've met?  From Bleak House,
perhaps?  Mrs. Pocket "tripped up the family with her footstool, read her book of dignities,  lost her pocket handkerchief, told us about her
grandpapa, and taught the young idea (the youngest child) how to shoot
by shooting him into bed whenever he attracted her notice."
 

[JoanP]

Jude, it might be some consolation for you to know that Powell's has a great web site - new and used books, reviews, etc.  A wonderful site  if you have the time to browse it, that is!  Powell's Books

Babi commented about Wemmick's two personas - asks how he keeps them separate.   The question makes me think about other characters in the story.  Wemmick's method is easy - distance.  He walks a few miles, gets to his Castle, surrounded by that drawbridge, leaving the dirty work of London - in London.  
Does he use space and distance to present different sides his other characters?  Pip seems to have forgotten the forge and his old life while in London, but when he comes into contact with the folks back home - with Wopsle, Joe, Biddy -you recognize  the old Pip again. Do you detect a change in Estella since she has been away to Paris?  Yes, she looks different - Pip hardly recognized her, but doesn't she seem to have changed?

Babi, oh yes, Mrs. Pocket - a one-dimensional character we recognize from Dickens' other novels- and yes, I think Dickens is alluding to his own wife, the mother of his children - some will say unfairly.  But you have to smile at the exaggerated rendering of this "negligent mother" - letting the baby play with a needlecase to keep her quiet - and when she noticed some of the needles were missing - sends the baby to bed so she could read her book in peace.  Maybe she's one that needs time away...

Do you think that Dickens is also taking aim at himself, at his role of the father - when he portrays Matthew Pocket out lecturing on "Management of Children and Servants" - while his own household is in chaotic shambles?

I'm wondering if we will see a different side of  Miss Havisham or Mr. Jaggers - or if Dickens is carefully selecting certain characters to present as one-dimensional types?

 

[PatH]

Yes, Jude, I took those pictures.  The Japanese garden isn't as easy to get to; it's near the Rose Garden, in Washington Park.

The bit that sums up Chapter XXXIII for me is Estella's remark to Pip: "We have no choice, you and I, but to obey our instructions.  We are not free to follow our own devices, you and I."

[Jonathan]

My quote would come from the end of Chapter XX, Chapter XXXIX:

'But, sharpest and deepest pain of all - it was for the convict, guilty of I know not what crimes, and liable to be taken out of these rooms where I sat thinking, and hanged at the Old Bailey door, that I had deserted Joe. That I could never, never, never, undo what I had done.'

What a terrible awakening. What an awful disillusionment. What a rueful recognition of his fake gentleman situation.

'...all a mere dream; Estella not designed for me; I only suffered in Satis House as a convenience, a sting for the greedy relations, a model with a mechanical  heart to practise on when no other practice was at hand.'

Used by Miss Havisham! Just like Estella has been. Certainly a lot of high drama in these chapters. We are who you made us.

[Jonathan]

Welcome back, Jude.

[Babi]

 Just speculating, JOANP, but it seemed to me Estella's change was simply from young girl
to young woman. Always proud and scornful, she is now confident of her power and has had
time to fully recognize and understand her position. We see that emerge not only in her
ease with Pip, but her new-found cool firmness with Miss Havisham.  Estella shows a remarkable
insight into her own situation. She is undoubtedly a very intelligent young woman.

  Now that made me smile, the possibility that Mr. Pocket's lecture was a reflection on
how Dickens sees some of his. By interesting coincidence, a letter from Charles Dickens
turned up on Antiques Roadshow. Some one..possibly an agent..had written him on behalf
of a Lady, asking for seating reservations for his next reading. Apparently these were
very popular, with packed audiences, sort of like one of today's pop star concerts.

 I had to stop to think about your question, if Dickens selects certain characters to
present as one-dimensional.  I can see where characters like Pumblechook and Skimpole
are sealed into their roles, so you could very well be right about this. As to Miss
Havisham or Jaggers, I'm not at all sure they would be considered one-dimensional. Miss
Havisham is certainly obsessive and Jaggers has his obsessive mannerisms, but I'm not
at all sure we will find them to be wholly one-dimensional. Miss Havisham, in her reaction
to Estella's confrontation, already seems to be undergoing a major change.

 PatH, that line pretty well summed up the theme for me, too. And Jonathan's choice for
Ch.XXXIX is very appropriate for that chapter.
  I found interesting the line spoken by Wemmick, to explain why he chose to help Pip with
his plans for Herbert's future. "..that there are Newgate cobwebs about, and it brushes them
away."

[JoanP]

Good morning, Babi!  Funny you should bring up Wemmick's advice to Pip.  I was just puzzling over that.
Pip is feeling guilty -  his lavish spending has also put Herbert into debt he will never be able to pay back. But is it wise to buy him a position?
 To tell the truth, I thought the advice Wemmick gave Pip back in the London office was quite sound and wonder what made him change his mind once removed to his Castle.  

London advice: Pick one of the six bridges over the Thames and pitch your money into the river. "A man should never invest portable property in a friend - unless he wants to be rid of a friend."

Walruth advice:  Very generous, Pip.  Do it by degrees.

So Pip decides to follow this advice - and Herbert is happy to purchase a position with a young shipping merchant - he's a  partner, who will provide the capital for the business.  What would happen to Herbert if no longer able to provide the monthly capital?

Wemmick is such a caring and generous man - clearly one of Pip's friends. Such friends are familiar characters in Dickens' stories?   I was happy to see he has a lady friend too.  Does anyone have any idea why she is wearing green gloves?

[marcie]

Jonathan, I think that the quotes you selected sum up the culmination of the first two sections of the book. Pip has finally fully realized that, because of his mistake about the source of his expectations, he has been only a plaything for Miss Havisham to seek her revenge on men through Estella. And he knows what he couldn't admit before... that he deserted Joe and Biddy and betrayed their love for him.

 

My quote would come from the end of Chapter XX, Chapter XXXIX:

'But, sharpest and deepest pain of all - it was for the convict, guilty of I know not what crimes, and liable to be taken out of these rooms where I sat thinking, and hanged at the Old Bailey door, that I had deserted Joe. That I could never, never, never, undo what I had done.'

What a terrible awakening. What an awful disillusionment. What a rueful recognition of his fake gentleman situation.

'...all a mere dream; Estella not designed for me; I only suffered in Satis House as a convenience, a sting for the greedy relations, a model with a mechanical  heart to practise on when no other practice was at hand.'

Used by Miss Havisham! Just like Estella has been. Certainly a lot of high drama in these chapters. We are who you made us.

[JoanP]

Does Pip know his sister's last words to Joe?  I thought that was amazing.  What do you think prompted her to ask him to forgive Pip? I didn't think she was aware of anything that was going on. 

[PatH]

Yes, Babi, Estella is very sure of herself now--very cool, and skillful at playing her admirers off against each other.  One thing I noticed: Estella has several times warned Pip about herself, how heartless she is, and dangerous.  When Pip doesn't accept her warning, she say at least you've been warned.

Why does she do this?  Is there a tiny bit of feeling buried in the ice?  Does she have enough conscience to feel a bit guilty about hurting him?

[Lorac625]

Wish I'd known in July,but better late than never.  I love reading almost anything, and will enjoy re-reading Great Expectation...I think this will be the 4th time.

[PatH]

Welcome, Lorac, it's good to have you with us.  It's a good thing you've already read the book--things will make sense while you're catching up.

[Jonathan]

Welcome to the discussion, Lorac. You're sure to find kindred spirits here who also love to read almost anything. Where do you put Dickens in that grand scale? LOL. Your fourth time! Did you choose an ending? Do Estella and Pip find happiness in the end. Where we are now in the book, it seems likely that these two will be comparing notes about events in their past. Estella seems no happier about her life than Pip does about his.


What's a Newgate Cobweb? That is a recurring image in the book. And how does Jagger's comment: "Who is the spider, Pip?", fit into that? Jaggers asked that when he set eyes on Dremmle at the dinner.