GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

             
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                    150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule VOLUME 1 July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX VOLUME 2 July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV) July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII) August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)  VOLUME 3 August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI) August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)

Chapter I (XL)

1.  Pip reacts to Magwitch with horror and disgust.  Is this reasonable? 

2.  Who might the person on the stairs be? 


Chapter II (XLI)

1.  Magwitch's money was honestly earned.  Why does Pip feel he can't take it?  Is he right?

2.  Magwitch has devoted years to his "fixed idea"--the goal of making a gentleman of Pip.  How realistic was this?  How has it benefitted Magwitch himself?

Chapter III (XLII)

1.  How much do you think Magwitch realizes of Pip's disgust for him? 

2.  We finally get Magwitch's story.  Do you sympathize?  Is the long arm of coincidence being stretched too far here?
 
Chapter IV  (XLIII)

1.  Pip & Drummle have an amusing struggle before the fireplace.  Does this remind you of anyone you know?

Chapter V  (XLIV)

1.  What does Pip want for Matthew and Herbert Pocket?

2.  Why has Estella agreed to marry Drummle?

3.  Miss Havisham looks ghastly at Pip's belief that Estella couldn't marry Drummle, and later at his declaration of hopeless love and disappointment.  Why?

Chapter VI  (XLV)

1.  Who do you think is keeping a watch on Pip's lodging?

2.  Has your opinion of Wemmick evolved?  Where do his loyalties lie?

Chapter VII  (XLVI)

1.  Here we introduce a new, humorous, character, Mr. Barley.  Is this effective?

2.  Magwitch has changed a bit, as has Pip's reaction to him.  How come?

3.  Do the plans of Pip and Herbert seem workable?

Relevant Links: Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;   Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856;    Map of London 1851

 

DLs:   JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,  JoanK  

[JoanP]

Lorac...carol - what a delightful surprise to find you here with us today.  Will echo Pat and Jonathan's welcome - Welcome...Welcome...Welcome!

Yes, yes, jump right in - we're about to learn of Pip's benefactor and his intentions for Pip's future.  Can Pip afford to turn away from his portable property at this point?  Will he?

Spiders and cobwebs...Newgate cobwebs.  Estella comments that Jaggers knows everyone's secrets.  For some unexplained reason he shows great interest in Dremmle, the spider.  It will be interesting to see if Dickens will follow up with this, Jonathan.

PatH, I've been noticing tiny bits of feeling for Pip  - the ice maiden tells Pip somewhere that she won't play the same games with Pip that she is playing with all the others who hover around her.  Do you remember what the argument with Miss Havisham was about?  That's the first time we've ever seen the two of them disagree - in Pip's presence too...

[marcie]

Welcome, Lorac. We're very glad you've joined us.

JoanP, I was interpreting Mrs. Joe's last words as asking Pip for forgiveness. That blow to the head seems to have made her less aggressive and perhaps she has been able to reflect on her past treatment of Pip.

PatH, Estella does warn Pip repeatedly. Do you think she sees in Pip a kindred young person who has been manipulated by Miss Havisham and is, therefore, out of bounds by Estella's own code of conduct?

[marcie]

Ohh, JoanP, that exchange between Miss Havisham and Estella was chilling. Miss Havisham wants Estella's love---Miss H raised Estella to have a hard heart against everyone but did not think that would include herself. Estella tells her calmly and matter-of-factly that she can't give what she never received.

[JudeS]

Re: Newgate Spiders

I read a very, very, V E R Y long article on Google  that dealt with this issue and many others. I will try to summarise part of what I gleaned from this dissertation.
Newgate is an extremely horrible prison.. Wemmick must go there quite often.He deals with a world of guilt, criminality, prisons and evil. His role in the story is to show that to survive in this atmosphere one must learn to to compartmentalise. Wemmick tells Pip: "The office is one thing and private life another. One must accomadate  oneself to them , but I can maintain the "Castle" where one can brush the Newgate cobwebs away."

Wemmick understands that life must be a compromise.  It is essentially the strategy of modern urban man. Living in a state of untarnished innocence can only be done by those who have no contact with or power within the city like Joe and Biddy.

[JoanP]

Marcie!  I never thought of that - that Pip's sister was asking Pip's forgiveness with her last words.  Of course that is more in keeping with one's last thoughts - asking forgiveness for one's own actions, rather than asking someone else to forgive someone else...  What do you think she had in mind when asking that?  

Jude - thank you for that information!  Much food for thought.  the

Newgate prison, "world of guilt, criminality, prisons and evil"

.  I'm reminded of Dickens' aversion to the city of London, the filth, the crime, the corruption.  

 "A state of untarnished innocence can only be done by those who have no contact with or power within the city like Joe and Biddy."  Jude

 In a way Magwitch's appearance is a blessing, isn't it?  No one was happy, matters were only getting worse - more money will only prolong the "unhappy fiction"  that it can bring happiness.  The truth is that neither Pip, nor Herbert were happy with what money could bring -  in fact both were miserable,  Herbert hating his job, Pip loathing his days in his quarters, filled with debts, with luxury furniture...not to mention the Avenger's presence  - and then those nights spent with the Finches...
Will Pip continue to live in London, accepting Magwitch's money?  How can he?

Dickens seems to be drawing a connection between the cobwebs of Newgate prison and the suggestion that Magwitch has placed himself in its shadow.  Is there a reason for his return at this time? - Isn't it about time for Pip to put behind him the illusion that Miss Havisham has planned to make him a gift of Estella?  If nothing else, Magwitch's return will accomplish this.

ps. Jude, do you think Dickens is drawing a connection between Dremmle, the "Spider" and the cobwebs of Newgate prison?   Did Jaggers imply that when he showed interest in Dremmle - and nicknamed him Spider - as Jonathan suggested yesterday.

[Babi]

 If I'm not mistaken, JOANP, Pip paid for Herbert's position, and Herbert knows nothing
about it. Part of the deal was that Herbert should not know. He simply believes he has
found the opportunity he has long looked for, and is ecstatic!  Pip will continue to
furnish any necessary capital until it's no longer required.
  No idea why the lady friend wears green gloves. I assume she just likes the color.

 PatH, I have always thought Estella had a tiny soft spot for Pip; she just will not
allow it to get in her way. In warning him, she has done what she could and her conscience
in the matter is clear. If he won't listen, well...she tried. I like MARCIE's suggestion
that Estella sees Pip as a kindred soul, manipulated by the will of others.

 A Newgate cobweb? To me, JONATHAN, that was simply the ugliness that clings to people
who have to deal with the place, it's prisoners and it's keepers. Wemmick feels that
doing a good deed helps to offset that ugliness, brush of some of the clinging 'cobwebs',
so to speak.
 An excellent point on the Newgate 'spiders', JUDE. You are so right. Every profession
that must deal with the uglier side of life and human sorrows must learn to put that aside
for their personal lives. It's necessary for their own health and sanity.
   I'm sure you've all noticed how Dickens relieves the depressing aspects of his books with
the bits of levity. He injected a smile for me with the line: "Miss Skiffin brewed such a jorum of
tea that the pig in the back premises became srongly excited, and repeatedly expressed his
desire to participate in the entertainment." 

  Now, as this section closes, the true benefactor is revealed, and the exiled convict risks his
life to return and enjoy his creation, the 'young gentleman'.   He has no way of knowing how
this news has destroyed all Pip's hopes and 'expectatons'.  Magwitch lost everyone he cared
about, and went to jail and exile for fighting for justice over their loss. 
 It seems to me that Pip, the only one who showed him kindness, became his substitute for all
he had lost.  Pip was his surrogate son, Pip was his inspiration; Pip was his success in life.

[Jonathan]

Thanks for all the comments on the Newgate Cobweb thing. I'm not surprised, Jude, that you found a whole dissertation on it. Dickens seems to have fixed on the idea of spiders and cobwebs, and being caught up in them. And his own tale is quickly turning into the most tangled web of all. Why didn't he just call it The Spider's Web? How unpleasant to be caught in one, whether the web of crime and punishment of Newgate, or the web of the death of hope and love in Satis House. Cobwebs everywhere. How will Estella and Pip ever extricate themselves?

And will Miss Havisham and Magwitch ever get over their disappointments over their creations. Both find their creations turning into strangers. And for Pip, Magwitch quickly turns into a greater embarrassment  than Joe. Murderers and blacksmiths. How can one be a gentleman with that baggage!

[JoanP]

Can you just  imagine Dickens'  readers as they neared the end of the last chapter of this Installment?  The gradual realization that this is the same repulsive convict, standing there in Pip's rooms, with tears in his eyes as Pip shows him the door; the same person who sent the two pound notes,  Pip tries to pay back to get rid of him; and it gets worse as he learns that this was Jaggers' client.

We all knew that Magwitch was Pip's benefactor, right?  Yet it was still overwhelming to read these pages and watch Pip come to the realization that Miss Havisham has been using him and Estella - well, there will be no happily ever after for Pip and Estella.  

"But, sharpest and deepest pain of all, that I had deserted Joe."  
"I could never, never, never undo what I had done."

Can't wait to turn to the final Volume.  I honestly don't remember how Pip pulls his life together once he knows this truth.  I do know never to say never though...

[Babi]

Magwitch's money was honestly earned.  Why does Pip feel he can't take it?  Is he right?

Well, how can he, feeling as he does now?  His dreams are shattered, his status as a
'young gentleman' is ludicrous in his own eyes,  and most of all, this benefaction was the cause
of his betrayal of Joe.  At this point, he knows nothing about Magwitch and his history. He sees
only the frightening convict,  the criminal, who wants to be his companion in life, as well as his
patron.  I would think, more than anything, Pip just longs to return to Joe and Biddy and try
to make his peace...and home..there.

[marcie]

This section is very intense. Pip is shattered knowing that his great expectations, and life as a "gentleman," are based on a convict whom he can't stand to be with. Yet he knows that Magwitch is risking his life to be with him in England. He believes that he can't take the money but a portion of the money is what is buying Herbert's livelihood. Pip knows that everything he based his hopes on with Estella is not true. He wishes that he had never left the forge but he feels that his betrayal of Joe and Biddy is so great that he can't go back. I am anxious to see what happens next.

[JoanP]

Okay, so he can't go back to the forge, that he will never be forgiven; he knows it's over with Estella, that there never was a future with her; and now he has this this man, this frightening, dangerous escaped convict in his room - who, it turns out, is his benfactor, who  loves Pip more than anyone in the world. I'm surprised while reading the first chapters in this last volume, to see Pip's sole consideration is to keep the convict hidden and safe.  He seems to have forgotten all about Estella.  He doesn't want to use the money any longer - how will he live, how will he pay for Herbert's partnership?  What is motivating him?

  Magwitch has decided to call himself Provis. What shall we call him? Pip is now calling him "Provis"- Uncle Provis.  So is Herbert.   Shall we call him that?  I wonder at Dickens' thought process in deciding on this name.  I looked up "proviso" - a clause, a condition, a rider - showing that this name is provisional...there are strings attached to it.  

You know, I have no idea what will happen next...even after watching many film adaptations of Great Expectations - and I read the novel years and years ago - I remember Miss Havisham and her mental state at the bridal table - and  I remember Magwitch was Pip's benefactor, not Miss Havisham.  But there is nothing in my memory bank that prepares me for what is to come.  I'm as excited as Dickens' readers were when they received this new issue.

[PatH]

Intense is right--both in feelings and action.  Everything Pip was counting on has collapsed; nothing is the way he thought it was.  And now he has to keep Magwitch from being caught and get him safely out of the country.

[JoanK]

The change in Pip himself is greater than change in his circumstance. At the beginning, he is a shallow dandy. by the end, he is a man, with the responsibility for everyone he cares for on his shoulders.

Have any of you had an event in your lives that made such a big change? Is it plausible that he would change so much so fast?

[JudeS]

Joan K:
You asked is it plausible that Pip would change so much so fast?
That is a question each of us, in our lives deals with. It may seem as though one event brought about the change but that is never the case. It is a process. We may not be fully aware of the proces. It may be partially unconcious. Bt when it becomes concious it is very hard to bear.

 In my reading no one has expressed this process better than Dante:

" In the middle if the journey of life I came to myself in a dark wood where the straight way was lost. Ah, how hard a thing to tell of that wood, savage and hard and dense, the thought of which renews my fear! So bitter is it that death is hardly more."

In the next few chapters we watch Pip go through this difficult process. He will never be as he was. His innocence will have vanished . He  will soon be able to deal wiht the  world as it really exists. Lost Illusions rather than Great Expectations.

[JoanP]

I've been thinking about what you said yesterday, Jude - in answer to JoanK's question if it is plausible that Pip would change so much, so fast...

"It may seem as though one event brought about the change but that is never the case. It is a process."

How very true.  I used to think that my mother's death when I was seven had a life-changing effect on me.  But it wasn't a sudden change.  It was the very gradual realization that I was going to have to seek beyond for answers, affection, guidance - things others had built-in and took for granted.
I can relate to Dickens' children in his fiction.  Pip has nowhere to turn to express his feelings about Estella, his own feelings of inadequacy, his dreams, his questions about why anyone would single him for his expectations.  He's been operating in a bubble, in a dreams.  When the bubble burst and he learns the truth, he seems to take it very well, I thought.  The real Pip, the caring Pip before the Estella dream interfered, was there all the time.  There were many instances of his caring nature throughout.  Now his chief concern seems to be to protect Magwitch.

And now we have Magwitch's story - what kind of a childhood was that?  No notion of where he was born..."became aware of himself"  down in Essex, thieving turnips for a living.  Although he does remember someone, a man who ran away from him.  Was this his father?  Reminds me of Jo from Bleak House.  Remember his childhood?  I'm becoming more sympathetic to Magwitch - at least I can understand that he might want to do something for Pip - for the little boy who was kind to him, more than kind, come to think of it - whose parents were buried in the churchyard.

[Babi]

 Learning Magwitch's story does make a difference. I find myself sympathetic with his,
with his determination to do something for Pip. It is sad that he does not realize how
impossible is his dream of a life with Pip, enjoying his 'young gentleman'.

 Q. 

Is the long arm of coincidence being stretched too far here?

   At first glance, it might seem so. But when you look at the history of these relationships,
how one led to another, it is plausible. Especially when you consider how close and tight
such communities were in those days. Not many people traveled very far from their home
base. They tended to see much the same people throughout life. At least that has been my
impression. The center of the entire web of relationships appears to be Jaggers, and that
makes everything fall into place realistically, for me.
 

[JoanP]

Babi - Do you see Pip becoming more sympathetic towards Magwitch than he was at the start? I sense Magwitch getting hurt at some of Pip's reactions - he expected a little love, a little gratitude. He's  been living for this moment. He  tells Pip he has felt "low" on occasion. Did you spot it?  I think Pip is becoming aware of the man's feelings

Jaggers is much like Bleak House's Tulkinghorn, isn't he? He is the keeper of many secrets.  Remember the Roman soldier pointing down from Tulkinghorn's ceiling - at his murdered body? Jaggers has those two dreadful death masks behind his own desk in his office.  Is there a parallel?  I think we should keep an eye on him, but also fear his fate may be the same.  The man has enemies.

[Babi]

  Yes, I do see Pip becoming more sympathetic toward Magwitch.  I was sure he would be as
he learned more of the old man's story.  This is, after all, the same Pip that brought a hungry
escapee extra food.  Pip is basically a tenderhearted young man,  and his derelictions are
understandable considering his youth, naivete and adoration of the unobtainable Estella.

  Do you really think Jaggers might be in danger, JOAN?  Everyone is so terrified of him, but so
respectful.  No murder, at least.  I don't believe there were any murders in this book.

[PatH]

Magwitch took a fancy to Pip when Pip helped him,and decided to do something for Pip in return.  This idea took over M's life, became the motivation for all he did.  Having this purpose made him work hard at overcoming his past, succeeding so he could make of Pip what he couldn't be himself.  His singleness of purpose probably accounts for what he thinks is his good luck--he was so focussed he was more likely to do everything well.  And the dream has sustained him, kept him going through some very hard years.

So the dream has been good for Magwitch, shaped his life.  What will happen when Pip tells him he can't take the money?  When he fully realizes Pip's reaction?  How will he bear the disappointment?

[marcie]

I agree that Dickens has created a character in Magwitch who has earned our compassion. PatH, I don't think that Magwitch would be able to understand why Pip couldn't take the money. Pip's reason seems to be that he had invested all of his dreams and identity in realizing his expectations to become a gentleman for Estella, seemingly at the behest of Miss Havisham. The price he paid for that was turning his back on Joe and Biddy. Now that he knows it was the prisoner who provided the money, his "false dreams" are shattered and he is tormented by his failures toward Joe and Biddy. I think that he feels that he can't take the money that is tainted with his failure.

I hope that somehow Magwitch will be spared the shock of Pip's refusal to accept what Magwitch spent the last 15-20 years toiling for and dreaming about.

[bookad]

is there any Pygmalion element here?---with Magwitch trying to change Pip....
Deb

[Jonathan]

Good question, Deb. The story seems to be a variation on the Pygmalion theme, with Magwitch so dedicated to making it possible for Pip to live the life of a gentleman. Others wanted something else for Pip, but all were trying to be helpful. He did so little for himself. Or was he just being used by everyone? I hope that will not be Pip's final conclusion. He keeps saying this all took place so long ago.

A gentleman's life is a difficult thing. The only thing harder, I suspect, is the life of a lawyer. Imagine a life governed by the Rules of Evidence. But I'm getting impatient to reach the end, and I'm reading ahead. With Pip slowly turning his back on his dreams, will Pumblechook feel let down?

[JoanK]

DEB: good point. I hadn't thought of that,, but definitely. How did Pygmalion end (the Greek myth, not the Bernard Shaw version, which wasn't written until much later)? Could Dickens have been inspired by it?

[JudeS]

JoanK
From Ovids Metamorphesis X
A Greek sculpture fell in love with a statue he had created. Venus granted his wish and turned her iinto a real person. They married and lived happily ever after. They had a son Paphos and some say a daughter, Methame.

I don't think this was the basis for Dicken's plot. Elders unfulfilled ambitions (Expectations) of their young and the opposite, children's unfulfilled expectations of their elders is so common that Dickens had no need to look further than his own family.

[JoanP]

Your question has me thinking about the relationship between GB Shaw and Dickens, Deb.  Shaw was a great admirer of Dickens - in fact wrote a  well-known Preface to Great Expectations - quoted partially in the heading here.

There is a strong similarity between the transformations of Pip and Eliza Doolittle.

Pygmalion as Joan K says,  is the story of the legendary sculptor and king of Cyprus, who fell in love with his own statue of Aphrodite. At his prayer, Aphrodite brought the statue to life as Galatea. Shaw presents a twist in the Greek myth, in which he transforms  a flower girl into a duchess through the power of speech. The author uses this mythology to portray aspects of Victorian England social distinction.   Language and social class - the difference and tension between the upper and lower class.

"A basic belief of the period was that a person is born into a class and that no one can move from one class to another. Shaw, on the contrary, believed that personality isn't defined by birth. Instead, he thought that you can achieve social change if you really believe in yourself."  Do you think Shaw arrived at this conclusion from reading Dickens' Great Expectations?

Dickens likes to use dialect to distinguish the lower classes - Magwitch's rough speech - Orlick's too.  But he doesn't attribute this speech to young Pip, does he?  Maybe this is whyEstella was mocking him as being common in the early chapters.  Like Eliza Doolittle, Pip no longer speaks or dresses like those in his village.  Does that mean he has achieved social change?

[JudeS]

Pygmalion by GBShaw written in 1912 wasi nspired by a successful play by WS Gilbert in 1871.. Gilberts play was called Pygmalion and Galatea. There followed a burlesque version called Galatea or Pygmalion Reversed.

Shaw created the part of Eliza  specifically for an actress, Mrs Patrick Campbell, for many reasons. Foremost was that he and Oscar Wilde felt that her diction on stage was that of a social climber.

Shaw wrote to his friend, Ellen Terry, that he met a rapscallion of a flower girl and all other women were driven from his mind.

Henry Higgins was in part patterned after Shaw's friend, the well known Philologist, Dr. Henry Sweet.

There is such a moat between Pygmalion and Great Expectations that is hard for me to bond the two. GE shows the develoopment of a young child and how he develops into a man. Pygmalion tells of the quick transformation of a flower girl who becomes  a person of a different social class because her clothes and manner of speaking is changed.  Shaw was writing about socity's superficiality while Dickens is given us deep insight into the life of person who suffers and learns about life's ups and downs, sorrows and happiness and what it takes to really become an adult who gives meaning to his life.

[bookad]

so much information, thank you....when I suggested the 'Pygmalion' element I was thinking of M's involvement in Pip's metamorphosis into a 'gentleman,' and how it seemed to be M's dream while enduring his hours as a prisoner in Australia...interesting that such a small incident as when he comes upon Pip in the graveyard searching for his parent's graves....he snarls and frightens Pip into giving him food etc., yet when meeting him a day later or so is not angry to include Pip in his 'story' to the police...and so he develops an obsession that helps him survive the years in the penal colony ( his obsession of giving Pip the gift of being able to afford to become a gentleman)....in reading a number of sites discussing Pygmalion...many other works have been loosely tied  into athe concept into a.... substantial 'change' of someone by another for a number of motives!!!

or this is what I came to see....and actually Pip is trying to change M., to fit in with his surroundings in England, but not seeming to have much luck

a point I found interesting from your comments 'what the effect of writers in the same time era upon each other'...

this books really pushes me in so many directions....I only wish I could find that dictionary that might put all the Dicken's words of his time period (and not in our usage today, or not in the same use) in one easy book to keep track of these while reading this book

Deb

[JoanP]

To me, the bottom line, the question that begs an answer - What is Dickens saying here - has money and education really changed Pip?  He was such an advocate for education of the poor...

"...actually Pip is trying to change M., to fit in with his surroundings in England, but not seeming to have much luck."

Deb - do you really see Pip trying to change Magwitch to fit in to his surroundings?  In the sense that he's trying to hide him?   I remember Wemmick's advice to Pip - to stay in England until the time is right to leave - to stay in England because it is easier to hide in a big city.  He sets him up in his own flat, takes him there only in the dark of night.  But I'm not sure that is fitting in with his surroundings...

A funny thing about Wemmick - I find his advice wise and sound when he speaks from Jaggers' law office, but when Pip goes to the Castle and speaks to the "other Wemmick" he gets more sympathetic advice.  Then I find myself changing my mind.  Wemmick is key to the story, isn't he?  In fact, I can't think of a better guide for Pip.  Wasn't it Wemmick who first advised Pip to take Magwitch's money - "portable property"?

[Babi]

 You interest me, JONATHAN. (Nothing new in that.) Why do you thinks a gentleman's life
is difficult?  From what I've seen, or rather read, about it it seems their greatest
problem is finding some relief from boredom.
  The only thing I feel sure about re. Pumblechook, is that he will take any credit to
be had, and cast any and all blame on the victim.

 

Like Eliza Doolittle, Pip no longer speaks or dresses like those in his village. Does
that mean he has achieved social change?

   Good question, JOANP. Based again only on what I've read, I suspect the upper classes
would consider this only a veneer.  It would not make him, 'one of us'. Middle class
could well find him quite acceptable. He no longer looks or speaks like a 'country
bumpkin'.

 I note among the questions one about a new character, a 'humorous Mr. Barley'. Alas,
I don't remember Mr. Barley at all, and of course I long since lost my notes. Could
someone remind me who he is?

[PatH]

Mr. Barley is the father of Clara, the beloved of Herbert Pocket.  He's the ex-purser, who sits in his room growling, complaining about gout, drinking rum and doling out the food for the family.  He's not really needed for the story, but he's one of those rococo flourishes that Dickens can't resist, and he's pretty funny.

[Jonathan]

'He's not really needed for the story.'

I'm cracking up over that PatH. You're right, but so wrong. As a matter of fact, I feel that way about Pumblechook. Until I realized that Dickens brought him into the story to serve as a reality check for himself, as well as the reader.  And he does take a lot of flak which might otherwise hurt others in the book.

Mr Barley is the limit of Clara's ancestry. Herbert makes a point of telling Pip that she has no grandfather, which is not going to go over too well with Herbert's mother, who's distinguished grandfather is her claim to social distinction.

What's difficult about being a gentleman. You've answered it yourself, Babi. Fighting boredom isn't easy. Nights at the club are a trial. Debts are a headache. Pip has nothing good to say about it. The soul-searching it has brought on for him must be the toughest part. He has become untrue to himself. And hurt people he loved. When it comes time to recognize Joe for what he is worth, he is described as a sincere and simple christian. Not a gentleman.

Another good point about writers being influenced by earlier writers. Dickens admits to that. Along the way he does mention Frankenstein and creating monsters. I seem to remember reading that? Monsters of one shape or another are almost a dime dozen in this book. Even that aristocratic boor, Drummle. What an irony that Estella chooses him. Is that what she deserves?

[JudeS]

Jonathan
You ask is Drummle what Estella deserves.

Oh goodness no!
She has been used as a tool by Miss Havisham all her life.
She is as much a sufferer as one who causes suffering in others.
I think that I would rather be Magwitch than Estella.
Magwitch has been successful because he has a dream that" it all doesn't end with me." I can do good to one who has done good to me. 
This thought has kept him going.
Again we are dealing with expectations and hopes of different generations towards each other.  Dickens was an expert in this. That is why his name and writing persists as one of the great writers of our time.

[JoanK]

"I suspect the upper classes
would consider this only a veneer.  It would not make him, 'one of us'."

The old problem of "old wealth" versus "new wealth". In real life, Pip wouldn't be accepted, but he would make sure his children went to the "right schools" and acquired the right life style, and that generation (or at worst, the one after) would be accepted. As Dickens says, the "Upper Class" are those whose grandparents were somebody.

[Frybabe]

I get the feeling that Estella by not, as she said, treating Pip like the others that she liked him enough to realize Pip deserved better than she was taught to give. And, she did warn him on numerous occasions. She is exacting her revenge (Miss Havisham's) on someone who deserves it - Drummle.

[JoanK]

If Drummle has a heart to break!

[Frybabe]

Maybe, maybe not, but she can make his life miserable anyway. I think he was 1) after a trophy wife and 2) out compete Pip for the prize.

[JoanP]

Loved the image of Estella knitting by the fire at Satis House when Pip comes in unexpectedly - surprised at this cozy domestic scene - though I don't know why.  I wondered what she was knitting...

Wasn't Pip marvelously effective when he told Estella to choose someone worthier than Drummle -  he could take it better.
Clearly she is touched, looking at him incredulously when he tells her she has done him more good than harm.  What did he mean by that?  
She's not moved enough to change her mind, though, is she?  She wants to marry Drummle soon, because she is  tired of her life, she says.  The marriage is not Miss Havisham's idea - in fact, she had urged her to wait.

  I can see why Drummle would want to marry her, Fry- she's beautiful, presentable and due to inherit a great deal of money - he doesn't need a heart for such a marriage.
BUT can  anyone explain why marrying Drummle will make Estella happy?  Do you think he's threatening her with something, or do you think it is simply that she is tired of her life and wants a change, as she says?  Maybe he's the first one to ask her...

[PatH]

Maybe, maybe not, but she can make his life miserable anyway.

She even says so: "Don't be afraid of my being a blessing to him.  I shall not be that".

[JoanP]

Ghastly look on Miss Havisham's face - remorse and pity -
Can't she do something?  Perhaps this is Estella's great moment of revenge on this controlling woman who has ruined her life, and any chance of happiness.

Pip leaves Satis House, spent - walks all the way to London.  Imagine the exhausted boy when he finally reaches his home, his bed, his pillow, he is handed Wemmick's note, "Don't go home." -  Imagine the impact of this writing on Dickens' readers - then and now.