Author Topic: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online  (Read 116954 times)

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #400 on: August 15, 2012, 08:59:13 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS  by Charles Dickens

             
         Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000                                    150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every  week for a mere two-penny.  The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero,  has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with  many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career.  He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1

July 1-7 ~  Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX

VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI  (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
 VOLUME 3
August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)
August 26-31 ~ Chapters XV-XX (LIV-LIX)

Chapter VIII (XLVII)

1.    This chapter begins with Pip waiting for a sign from Wemmick that it's time to try to escape from London with Magwitch. Pip says, "It was an unhappy life I lived, and its one dominant anxiety, towering over all its other anxieties like a high mountain above a range of mountains, never disappeared from my view."  What is Pip's worst fear?

2. Why des Pip return Magwitch's pocket book?

3.    How does Pip spend his time? What evidence do we have of his financial state. Why does Pip forbid Herbert to speak to him of Estella?

4. Pip says he will tell the reader of two meetings. What are the circumstances of Pip's first "meeting" and whom does he encounter? 


Chapter IX (XLVIII)

1.  Pip tells of his second meeting. It's with Jaggers and Wemmick. What does Jaggers say are the two choices of action for Drumle in relation to Estella? Jaggers thinks it's a toss up. Which do you think is more likely?

2.  What observations about Molly does Pip make and what are his conclusions? What information does Wemmick provide to Pip that increase his suspicions about Molly?

Chapter X (XLIX)

1.  When Pip responds to Miss Havisham's note to come to her, what is Pip's response to what she can do for his friend, Herbert, and for himself?

2. When Miss Havisham asks about his state of mind and whether Pip can forgive her, do Pip's responses show he has learned some things about himself?

3. What does Miss Havisham relate about Estella's upbringing and her motives?

4. What flashback or foreshadowing brings Pip to return to Miss Havisham's room after he leaves? What is the health of Miss Havisham and of Pip after the fire?

5. What is Miss Havisham's request to Pip concerning Estella?

Chapter XI  (L)

1.  While Herbert is bandaging Pip, what does he tell Pip about Magwitch's account of his girlfriend and child?

2. What conclusion does Pip share with Herbert about Estella's parents?


Chapter XII  (LI)

1.  This chapter begins with Pip's words: "What purpose I had in view when I was hot on tracing out and proving Estella's parentage, I cannot say. It will presently be seen that the question was not before me in a distinct shape, until it was put before me by a wiser head than my own."  What (indirect) advice does Pip get from Jaggers? Do you agree with it?

2. What do you think of the interesting exchange that occurred between Jaggers and Wemmick? What new sides do you see in these two men?

Chapter XIII  (LII)

1.  What good thing does Pip complete at the beginning of this chapter?

2.  After Pip gets word from Wemmick that it's time to put their plan into action, he receives an anonymous letter to meet someone –alone-- at the sluice-house by the limekiln, to receive information about his "uncle Provis." Who do you think wrote the letter? Do you think Pip should go?

3. What do you think Pip means when he makes the following reflection after hearing the landlord of an inn talk about Pumblechook: "I had never been struck at so keenly, for my thanklessness to Joe, as through the brazen impostor Pumblechook. The falser he, the truer Joe; the meaner he, the nobler Joe."
 

Chapter XIV  (LIII)

1.  Where  you surprised at who meets Pip at the sluice-house? Why does Pip think he is doomed and who does he think about?

2.  How is Pip saved?


Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg  Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ;   Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856  Map of London 1851


 
DLs:   JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi JoanK  


Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #401 on: August 15, 2012, 09:34:12 PM »
Well, I have finished!  Comments pending...

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #402 on: August 16, 2012, 01:07:24 AM »
It does seem that Estella is fulfilling the role for which Miss Havisham has groomed her all her life. She has picked Drummle to "take down" since he seems to be one of the most despicable characters. Estella knows she will not be happy and it's likely, as Jude says, she doesn't think she deserves happiness, but I wonder if she thinks she is invincible. I'm worried that Drummle is going to harm her.

Babi

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #403 on: August 16, 2012, 09:02:51 AM »
Ah, yes! THAT Mr. Barley!  I don't know how amusing I find him. He's a pretty unpleasant,
miserable old sod. (That's a British term; I'm not sure exactly what it means,so I hope it's
not anything vulgar.  8) )

 I don't know that Estella 'deserves' Drummle...he's a cruel man...but marriage to him would
certainly undeceive her about her 'power' over men and her own cynical judgment.

Quote
   As Dickens says, the "Upper Class" are those whose grandparents were somebody
. And the sad thing, JOANK, is that subsequent generations preen themselves in their grandparents prestige, and often accomplish nothing themselves.
 
 I don't think Estella expects to be happy in her marriage to Drummle, JOANP. I think she
expects simply to have the lifestyle she wants, to be independent of Miss Havisham, and to
rule Drummle as she has all other males of her acquaintance. As I remarked above, I fear
she is in for a painful readjustment of 'exectations'.  I have to agree with MARCIE.  I also
fear that Drummle may actually harm her.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #404 on: August 16, 2012, 09:30:49 AM »
I agree, Marcie and Babi, Estella doesn't really understand what she's getting into.  It's too bad she can't just not marry, but I presume Miss Havisham wouldn't stand for that.

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #405 on: August 16, 2012, 09:47:49 AM »
But it seems that Miss Havisham is now aware that Estella is making a bad choice, after hearing Pip's outburst and poor opinion of her intended.  I'm wondering who paid for the wedding - where the wedding took place.  Surely not in Satis House.

I wasn't aware of Pip's negative feelings regarding Drummle's character - until he learned that he was a serious contender for Estella's hand, were you?  Weren't they BROTHER Finches?  Fellow students? Of course Pip sees him for what he is, but there was no real animosity between them, was there?  The scene in front of the fire at the Blue Boar was hilarious - I remember similar scenes with my sister - similar scenes between my sons, pressing elbows at the dinner table...  But this was a serious situation at the Blue Boar - Pip and Drummle determined not to give in on the matter of Estella.  It seems that Pip was the one who caved, doesn't it?  Wasn't there anything else he could have done to stop the marriage?

"Comments Pending"....Fry, I hope it doesn't mean we won't be hearing your observations on these chapters for the next two weeks?   You don't want to give the plot away, but there is so much here, besides the twists in the plot. We  would really miss you, if that's what you mean...

Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #406 on: August 16, 2012, 11:15:54 AM »
JoanP, I just don't want to get too far ahead of the conversation with my comments.

Drummle was something of a bully, I think, and arrogant. Pip didn't like him early on and couldn't understand why Mr. Jaggers paid so much attention to him at that dinner. I really had to laugh at Pip and Drummle in the scene at the Blue Boar. What a childish, "who flinches first" type of encounter.


Jonathan

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #407 on: August 16, 2012, 04:19:17 PM »
Waiting for a Finch to flinch! It would be wonderful to get more comments like that, Frybabe. It's almost too late in the game to withhold other comments that might prove to be very interesting or provocative to discussion. Strike while the iron is hot...as they would say down at the forge.

So many interesting comments in the last dozen posts, which reflect the growing tensions in this remarkable drama. I like Pat's: 'Estella doesn't really understand what she is getting into.'

Granted that she has had a very sheltered upbringing and has only gotten to know the big outside world since being sent to Brighton for a 'finishing' course in the way of the world. Except for a little part of her seen through Pip's besotted eyes, the reader has been given no chance to get to know her. A mind of her own has been hinted at. I don't think she cares to be Miss Havisham's sacrificial goat. More likely she wants to be avenged on her. The last thing in the world she would want is to break the heart that was once allowed to kiss her.

I've also finished the book. Estella remains a mystery in the end. Her busy little hands, in the knitting scene, observed so closely by Pip, turn out to reveal something very significant. We're never told what she is knitting. Perhaps a new sock for Miss Havisham. The one foot is bare.

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #408 on: August 16, 2012, 05:53:02 PM »
Jonathan, you have such a well-honed sense of humor! I love your sock comment.

Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #409 on: August 16, 2012, 08:51:39 PM »
SPOILER ALERT IF you haven't finished the book do not read this post.!

Remembering that Pip was hiding a known fugitive and was instrumental in trying to get him away, I am surprised he wasn't arrested for aiding and abetting a wanted man. He was arrested for debt, but that got paid off by Joe. Pip was stupid not to take Wemmick's advice about the "portable property".

The laws were different then, but how did the crown get to take physical property owned Australia. I forget when Australia became a sovereign nation of its own. Also, Dickens wrote that there was no paperwork or other regarding Pip getting the property, but what about the arrangements through Jaggers? Don't the written instructions from Magwitch count for anything. It was stipulated that Pip would get property as well as money, I think. I guess intent is not near as good as a name actually on a deed or bank accounts.

Pemmblechook was true to himself to the end. Pip finally told him off, but P just turned it around and, once again, made Pip look like an ingrate. The townspeople reverted to treating him indifferently at the least.  That episode at Pip's old home town reminded me of Tom Wolfe's book and oft quoted phrase, You Can Never Go Home Again.

I did like the ending they settled on better than the first. I cannot see Estella remarrying. I like to think that Pip may eventually find another to love. Even more I like to think that Pip and Estella correspond and become/remain friends from a distance. But that would be another story.

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #410 on: August 16, 2012, 09:00:16 PM »
A number of us have not finished the book - and since it is in many ways a mystery, we have to ask that you not go beyond the chapters in the discussion schedule in the heading.  If you have finished, please keep in mind that others have not. 

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #411 on: August 16, 2012, 10:14:51 PM »
Fry, when you wrote that Pip was confused at Mr. Jagger's interest in Drummle at that dinner, it occurred to me that he may have recognized Drummle for what he really was - a future client who would one day be of need of his services. :o

Babi

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #412 on: August 17, 2012, 08:28:27 AM »
JOANP, Drummle's attitude toward Pip has been one of contempt from the beginning. He missed
no opportunity to sneer. They may have been members of the same club, but the animosity was
definitely there. As to the marriage, he remonstrated with Estella, with Miss Havisham, and
confronted Drummle. I don't know what else he could have done.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #413 on: August 17, 2012, 04:09:13 PM »
Babi - I thought Estella's hesitation interest - with a little more from Pip, doesn't it?  But what does he have to offer her? He knows now that Miss H. is not his benefactor.  I'll bet she would have helped him though. She is opposed to the marriage to Bentley Drummle.  She asks Pip several times what she might do for him.  The only thing he asks for is help paying for Herbert's partnership.  This makes an impression on her - she immediately writes an order for the amount needed.  But she seems to want to help Pip too, doesn't she?

Don't you think the marriage took place rather quickly?  Did they elope?  I can't see Bentley's mama consenting to the marriage without some sort of background check - at least reassurance that Estella came from the right background.  I guess Estella's grandparents weren't as important to her as Miss Havisham's money...

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #414 on: August 17, 2012, 04:25:17 PM »
Finally we're getting the story about Miss Havisham's fiance - and her step-brother too.  They were in on the scam together.  Funny we should get the story from Magwitch.  Do I have this right?  The other convict he was fighting with in the marshes was Compeyson?  I get Compeyson and Arthur mixed up.  I'm assuming that Arthur is Miss Havisham's step-brother?  His surname is Arthur?  He's frighted to Death - literally, afraid that "she" is coming after him.
And Compeyson was Miss Havisham's jilting fiance?  Am I right?  This could get very interesting if they come face to face...

  I'm not sure why Compeyson would be following Magwitch though.  Wouldn't he be frightened that Magwitch is here in London for revenge? He knows nothing about Pip's dealings with Magwitch in the past - so why would he be hiding in Pip's stairwell?  Did he follow Magwitch?   Wemmick confirms that Compeyson is in London - how would Wemmick  know this?

Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #415 on: August 17, 2012, 05:58:22 PM »
I thought it was Orlick who was in the stairwell. Was he the one who put Compeyson onto Magwitch?

JoanP, you have Arthur and Compeyson right. I was waiting for a show down between Ms. Havisham and Compeyson too. I forget what happened to Arthur.

PatH

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #416 on: August 17, 2012, 09:56:32 PM »
I forget what happened to Arthur.
He drank himself to death.  We saw the end, with him screaming in his delirium that Miss H. was coming at him carrying his shroud, then collapsing, dead.

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #417 on: August 18, 2012, 12:30:39 AM »
What a cad that Compeyson is. I'm picturing those old-time villains twirling their moustache and tying women to train tracks. He seems to be a coward too. I would think that he would send someone to spy on Magwitch rather than watch him himself.

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #418 on: August 18, 2012, 06:18:12 AM »
I guess Dickens included Arthur's death to remove any question about who will inherit the Havisham fortune.  I half expected him to show up again at Satis House....

Somehow I can't imagine Orlick in the big city  - how does he even know Compeyson?  Does this mean that Compeyson has been back in the village - that close to Miss Havisham?!!! Oh my!

I 've been wondering how Joe is getting on at the forge.  He's alone now with Orlick and Biddy gone. Pip seems to have forgotten about him - every thought of loyalty and concern has been transferred to Magwitch.  How did this come about?  Do you find it altogether believable?


Babi

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #419 on: August 18, 2012, 08:46:12 AM »
  Compeyson are intractable enemies. Magwictch will automatically get the death penalth if he
is caught in England, and Compeyson wants to see that happen. I believe it's only because
Pip and Herbert arranged to move Magwitch immediately that he wasn't caught and arrested
sooner.  I don't know Wemmick learned Compeyson was in London. I would suppose his
connections with the legal and criminal elements bring such bits of information to him all
the time.
   I would have an even harder time imagining how Orlick would have come into contact with
Compeyson. That is stretching coincidence to the limit.

 
Quote
I 've been wondering how Joe is getting on at the forge.  He's alone now with Orlick and Biddy gone. Pip seems to have forgotten about him - every thought of loyalty and concern has been transferred to Magwitch.  How did this come about?  Do you find it altogether believable?
   I hadn't thought about that aspect of it, JOAN.  But now that you point it
out, I think I can find it believable.  Haven't you found in your own experience, that in times of
crisis you are fully focused on the necessities of the moment?   Time enough to deal with other
issues after the critical one is dealt with?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #420 on: August 18, 2012, 09:18:56 AM »
Quote
every thought of loyalty and concern has been transferred to Magwitch

Pip has taken on a sense of responsibility for Magwitch because he put his life in jeopardy just on his (Pip's) account. He is also showing more compassion toward Magwitch after hearing his story.

JudeS

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #421 on: August 18, 2012, 01:41:32 PM »
I finished the book but the ideas are still so much with me.

The whole question of "Expectations" are found everywhere.  In her last book, Nora Ephron has this paragraph:

"I always hoped that he (her Father) would show some interests in my kids, but he didn't even remember their names. .....
You always think that a bolt of lightning is going to strike and your parents will magically change into the people you wish they were.......But they're never going to. And even though you know they're never going to , you still hope they will"

And in the Smithsonians magazine of 2-2012 devoted to the 200th anniversary of Dickens birth we find this:


"Dickens had fathered ten children and micromanaged their lives, and pushed all to succeed but one by one they fell short of his expectations. He expected his sons to be like him but they couldn't be.......many escaped abroad to Australia, Canada and India, often at their father's urging"

I hope this seguay is not too out of place. i will rejoin the discussion whenit moves to the last chapters.


Jonathan

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #422 on: August 18, 2012, 02:35:43 PM »
Poor Dickens. The children fell short of his expectations. So did his wife. So did his mother. And Dad was a disappointment.

Who in the book has the greatest expectations? And worked harder at making them come true? Wouldn't it be Magwitch? And Pip is reluctant to disappoint him.

Isn't it ironic that Compeyson, the cad that he is, should be Magwitch's idea of a gentleman. Mainly because, it seems, it's the gentleman who gets the breaks in a court of law.

'When we was put in the dock, I noticed first of all wot a gentleman Compeyson looked, wi' his curly hair and his black clothes and his white pocket-handkerchief, and wot a common sort of wretch  I looked....And when  we're sentenced, ain't it him as gets seven year, and me fourteen.'

This book leaves one feeling haunted.

JoanP asks: 'But what does he (Pip) have to offer Estella?' I think it's even a bigger mystery: what does Estella want? What expectations does she have? Anything but romance, it seems. She's seen enough of that.

Jonathan

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #423 on: August 18, 2012, 02:44:28 PM »
What does Orlick have to do with Compeyson and Magwitch. If that was him on the stairwell, it could be that he is stalking Pip for his own good reasons.

PatH

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #424 on: August 18, 2012, 10:04:11 PM »
I think it's even a bigger mystery: what does Estella want? What expectations does she have? Anything but romance, it seems. She's seen enough of that.
I wonder that too.  We see how emotionally damaged she is, and unable to love, we see that she's bored with the fashionable life of London, but what would interest her, what would she be happy doing, how could she relate to another?

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #425 on: August 18, 2012, 10:46:33 PM »
Dickens shows a lot of understanding of individuals but/and he didn't have the benefit/burden of the extensive psychologizing that is part of 20-21st century America. It seems likely to me that his view of how any of his characters grow and develop after childhood trauma is more "romantic" than ours. I'm trying to think of characters in his other books. Didn't Scrooge wake up a changed man after his nightime visits of ghosts? Oliver Twist turned out contented after his childhood on the streets. I'm purposely not reading the last pages of the book yet and don't remember the ending from 50 years ago. I am wondering about the new expectations of both Estella and Pip.

Babi

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #426 on: August 19, 2012, 09:05:07 AM »
 As she is now, I very much fear that nothing could really make Estella happy. I suspect
the entire notion of happiness is a fairy tale to her.  Her only goal seems to be to do what
she must, and otherwise please herself in whatever she can.
  It seems evident that there will be some sort of confrontation between Compeyson and
Magwitch.  I do hope it means Compeyson gets his come-uppance, but I don't see how it
could end well in any other respect.
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #427 on: August 19, 2012, 09:23:23 AM »
I just now realized that we are not finishing the book until this coming Friday. For some reason, I thought it was today. Duh!

bookad

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #428 on: August 19, 2012, 11:44:58 AM »
you're not the only one...I thought we were on the last segment as well
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #429 on: August 19, 2012, 11:55:30 AM »
Actually, our schedule goes out until August 31, a week from Friday. This week's focus is: August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII).

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #430 on: August 19, 2012, 01:17:04 PM »
Chapter VIII (XIV) begins with Pip waiting for a sign from Wemmick that it's time to try to escape from London with Magwitch. Pip says, "It was an unhappy life I lived, and its one dominant anxiety, towering over all its other anxieties like a high mountain above a range of mountains, never disappeared from my view."  What is Pip's worst fear?

PatH

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #431 on: August 19, 2012, 08:56:22 PM »
What a section!  Full of action, suspense, and revelations.

Pip's worst fear is that Magwitch will be discovered and taken or killed, either through accident, or the efforts of Compeyson.  It's interesting to speculate how much he is afraid for Magwitch's safety and how much for himself--that he will be disgraced by his association with the convict.  Whatever the mixture at the start, his fears for Magwitch's well-being seem to take over as he becomes more sympathetic to M.

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #432 on: August 19, 2012, 11:25:13 PM »
I agree with you, Pat. Pip definitely grows to care about Magwitch as he realizes how Magwitch has made Pip the center of his life. He's put his own life in jeopardy to be with Pip.

I think it's Pip's loyalty to Magwitch that enables him to grow as a man. The "high mountain" of his fear for Magwitch, has put the "range of mountains" that are his other anxieties (chiefly about Joe and Estella) temporarily in the background.

JoanP

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #433 on: August 20, 2012, 07:27:33 AM »
From hot and sunny Disney -7 excited grandchildren who want to gogogo every minute!  Yesterday we "did" Epcot right from the plane.  Today we're off  to Animal Kingdom - at 7:30- have n't even had breakfast yet!  Mercy!

I' m one who hasn't finished the book yet.  Please don't tell me what happens!  I do remember that Dickens wrote two endings though.  If you are ever in doubt where we are in the discussion, just check the table on the top of each page with the questions Marcie  has provided for this week, okay?

I've a question for you this morning - about Magwitch's wallet of money.  Where is it right now?  Does he have it with him on the boat as the boys try to get him out of England?  Or did he leave it back in his room with Clara and he father.  I do remember that Wemmick advised Pip to take this "portable property" from him- Pip followed that advice, didn't he?  But then he gave it back - I forgot  why - but where is it now? Surely not on the boat.  Can you fill in this spotty memory?

Off to Animal Kingdom!i


PatH

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #434 on: August 20, 2012, 08:10:21 AM »
Right now, it's Wednesday morning, the boat is standing empty, Magwitch is waiting at Mill Pond Bank, with the money, and Pip, Herbert, and Startop are about to drink their coffee and set off.  Presumably the money will go with Pip and Magwitch to finance their trip.

Pip gave the money to Magwitch because he is determined not to touch a penny of it, but he'll have trouble not letting Magwitch use it when they're abroad.

Babi

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #435 on: August 20, 2012, 09:36:28 AM »
  Q.  Why does Pip forbid Herbert to speak to him of Estella?
 It seems that Pip asked Herbert not to speak to him of Estella, because he did not want to
hear whether she was married or anything about her married life.
  It's plain enough that Pip it not using Magqitch's money and is hurting financially.  Creditors
are pursuing him and he is selling his jewelry and small articles for cash. And he is spending much of his time rowing on the Thames, building up both strength and the appearance of normality for
his great escape plan.

  Yes, I think it's fair to say this is now the engrossing effort of his life.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Jonathan

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #436 on: August 20, 2012, 12:20:14 PM »
No thoughtful reader could ever be finished with this book!i. Have fun with the kids, Joan, and don't let Pip's fears prevent you from having a wonderful time.   

Pip's fears have brought out the best in him. Compassion for a fellow human being. Magwitch's instincts about Pip, back in the marsh, were right. Pip was the boy to be helped to a better life. At the same time, I find myself wondering about Pip's pride. Isn't it pride that has him turning down a suitcase full of cash (in one movie version).

I keep thinking of what Marcie posted about Dickens's knowledge of human nature, and his exposition of it without the benefit of our modern psycholigical tools. I liked the term, 'psychologizing'. In the end, it seems to me, Dickens succeeds in making sympathetic characters out of all of them. We have to feel sorry for Estella and Pip. And for Miss Havisham and Magwitch just as much.

I'm in the middle of Chapter X, overwhelmed by the dramatic heart-to-heart between Miss Havisham and Pip'.

'What have I done! What have I done!

What a cry from the heart! And what a psychologizing train of thought runs through Pip's mind:

'I knew not how to answer, or how to comfort her. That she had done a grievous thing in taking an impressionable child to mould into the form that her wild resentment, spurned affection, and wounded pride, found  vengeance in, I knew full well. But that, in shutting out the light of day, she had shut out infinitely more; that, in seclusion, she had secluded herself from a thousand natural and healing influences; that, her mind, brooding solitary, had grown diseased, as all minds do and must and will that reverse the appointed order of their Maker: I knew equally well. And could I look upon her without compassion, seeing her punishment in the ruin  she was in, in her profound unfitness for this earth on which she was placed, in the vanity of sorrow which had become a master mania, like the vanity of penitence, the vanity of remorse, the vanity of unworthiness, and other monstrous vanities that have been curses in this world.'

What have I done! I stole her heart away and put ice in its place.'


Vanity! All is vanity! What a passage. Was Dickens psychologizing or moralizing? I can see now why Dostoyevsky came to England to visit Dickens.

JudeS

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #437 on: August 20, 2012, 06:04:52 PM »
Jonathan
I'm so glad you put that paragraph up.
For me , it was the most impressive in the book.
Remember Dickens preceded Freud who was entranced by his books.

Pat
Nice picture!

marcie

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #438 on: August 20, 2012, 06:13:17 PM »
Joan, I hope that the children wear out a bit from all of the excitement before you and the parents do!

I think that Pat is right -- that the money will be used to finance the trip. In Pip's mind, it's just until he can get Magwitch somewhere safe abroad and then his intent is to tell Magwitch he can't accept the money.

Babi, yes, Pip is out of cash and has to sell off items. It looks like he owes money to many merchants.  I think that Pip fears that Estella is married to Brummle but he doesn't want to face up to that awful fact. I think his feelings are more protective toward Estella rather than jealous of Brummle. My understanding of Pip is that he continues to love Estella but now without hope of being with her.

Jonathan, what a profound statement: "No thoughtful reader could ever be finished with this book!" You point out the great capacity for human understanding that Dickens was able to embody in his characters. Last evening, I watched a program about Oscar Hammerstein II, the American lyricist and playwright. His son said that he very much cared about the characters for whom he wrote the script and songs they communicated in the musicals he created. They were living people to him. I think Dickens must have felt the same. Jude, I too was struck by that remarkable paragraph when Pip reflects on Miss Havisham's remorse.

Frybabe

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Re: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online
« Reply #439 on: August 20, 2012, 10:36:32 PM »
Not GE, I know, but -- I was, once again, cruising Project Gutenberg and found a volume of Dickens poems and verse. I particularly liked this one:

             A CHILD’S HYMN
Hear my prayer, O! Heavenly Father,
  Ere I lay me down to sleep;
Bid Thy Angels, pure and holy,
  Round my bed their vigil keep.

My sins are heavy, but Thy mercy
  Far outweighs them every one;
Down before Thy Cross I cast them,
  Trusting in Thy help alone.

Keep me through this night of peril
  Underneath its boundless shade;
Take me to Thy rest, I pray Thee,
  When my pilgrimage is made.

None shall measure out Thy patience
  By the span of human thought;
None shall bound the tender mercies
  Which Thy Holy Son has bought.

Pardon all my past transgressions,
  Give me strength for days to come;
Guide and guard me with Thy blessing
  Till Thy Angels bid me home.