Author Topic: GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens~ July Bookclub Online (Read 116946 times)

Babi · « **Reply #440 on:** August 21, 2012, 09:27:45 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

JULY and August Book Club Online.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens

Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012

Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.

"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)

Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)
August 26-31 ~ Chapters XV-XX (LIV-LIX)

Chapter XV (LIV)

1. Do you think it was inconsistent for Magwitch to have risked his freedom to find Pip? Does he seem at all concerned that he might never make it out of London to freedom?

2. The Custom House officers allowed Pip to change Magwitch's clothes, but needed to take all of his possessions. What was the significance of this? Why should this sadden Pip?

Chapter XVI (LV)

1. Mr. Jaggers, though angry with Pip for letting Magwitch's property slip through his fingers, will try to save some his holdings abroad. Is there a difference between his "portable property" in that purse - and his land holdings abroad? Is everything forfeited to the crown?

2. Mr. Wemmick, though dismayed with Pip for not accepting portable property as he had advised, remains his friend, and invites him, as his best man on that 'morning walk.' Why do you think Dickens included this humorous wedding sketch in such detail?

Chapter XVII (LVI)

1. Who does Pip consider more of a father figure - Joe or Magwitch?

2. What made the Jury decide Magwitch deserved the death sentence? What is Pip's reaction to this decision?

Chapter XVIII (LVII)

1. How did Joe hear of Pip's illness? What "onnecessary" details is Joe keeping from Pip as he recovers?

2. When Pip heard that Joe had paid his creitors, he decided to go to work at the forge and marry Biddy until he repaid him. What did you think of his plan? Would this have been an appropriate happy ending for the story?

Chapter XIX (LVIII)

1. Was Pumblechook right, after all? Had Pip really squandered his opportunities with his own great expectations?

2. The forge is silent when Pip arrives, locked for the day. Did you see that marriage coming?

Chapter XX (LIX)

1. Did Dickens leave us with the promise of a happily-ever-after ending for Pip and Estella or not? Do you think this book needed or deserved a happy ending?

2. Do these three versions of the final line of the published edition, indicate a conflict in Dickens' mind concerning the ending?
~ ‘I saw no shadow of another parting from her’ ~ the standard reading in editions since 1862, presumably authorised by Dickens,
~ but the first editions read ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her’,
~ while the manuscript in Dickens' hand, reads ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her, but one.’

3. Did the edition you are reading include Dickens' original ending, which was unpublished during his lifetime? Why do you think Dickens changed this ending before final publication?

Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project ; Dickens and Victorian Education ; Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations; The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856; Map of London 1851;
ORIGINAL ENDING, unpublished during Dickens' lifetime

DLs: JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi, JoanK

Quote

I can see now why Dostoyevsky came to England to visit Dickens.

Oh, yes, JONATHAN. Dostoyevsky was, in his gloomier Russian way, as great at probing the
human psyche as Dickens. He would certainly have been drawn to Dickens, and vice versa, I
would tink. But Dickens is so much easier to read, don't you think?

Quote

I hope that the children wear out a bit from all of the excitement before you and the parents do!

Futile hope, MARCIE. Kids can run themselves to sheer exhaustion, flop down for 10-15
minutes, and jump up fully restored and ready to go again!]

I hope in all the drama, we are not missing the marvelous background, the London of Dickens'
day. The lamplighters scarcely able to find room to plant their ladders, because of the bustle
of the crowds. Working by candlelight, candle-snuffing. You find yourself right there with
them.
What do you think of Jaggers bringing up Estella and Drummle in his dinner conversation with
Pip? It did seem to me that he wanted Pip to be aware of what could possibly happen. Is this
his way of doing what he can to help Estella now? His evaluation of the relationship seems
entirely accurate.

Quote

"If he should turn to and beat her, he may possibly get the strength
on his side; if it should be a question of intellect, he certainly will not."

Who was it that posted, that Dickens is gradually showing the better side of all the characters?
I will except Drummle and Compeyson, but I believe it's certainly true of the others.

Jonathan · « **Reply #441 on:** August 21, 2012, 03:52:51 PM »

Of course, Babi, you're right. Dickens is so much easier to read. Is it because the feeling and emotions, the thinking, are all so familiar to us, compared to the Russian ways? Haven't we all grown up with the prayer of Dickens's Child's Hymn?

What a road Pip has travelled since we first met him musing about his beginnings and his fateful encounter with Magwitch in the marsh country. But how did Estella arrive at her place in the story? At last we get to hear about her strange fate in life. Near the end of Chapter X, the remorseful Miss Havisham exclaims:

'When she first came, I meant to save her from misery like mine.'

We know that she came, after Mr Jaggers had been asked to find a child for her. And he in turn, having Molly and her child on his hands, and feeling certain that he was saving the child from a dismal future, passed Estella along to Miss Havisham. Another moving scene in which Jaggers tells Pip about it:

'Put the case that he (I, the lawyer, Jaggers) lived in an atmosphere of evil, and that all he saw of children, was their being generated in great numbers for certain destruction. Put the case that he often saw children solemnly tried at a criminal bar, where they were held up to be seen; put the case that he habitually knew of their being imprisoned, whipped, transported, neglected, cast out, qualified in all ways for the hangman, and growing up to be hanged. Put the case that pretty nigh all the childern he saw in his daily business life, he had reason to look upon as so much spawn, to devilop into the fish that were to come to his net - to be prosecuted, defended, forsworn, made orphans, be be-devilled somehow.' Chapter XII.

Doesn't that break your heart. The lucky children got to learn the Child's Hymn. But how about Estella? What was she saved from? What a strange fate awaited this poor little girl when she was born. What an irony. They agree among themselves that it would be best not to tell Estella about her parentage!!!

marcie · « **Reply #442 on:** August 21, 2012, 09:59:15 PM »

Babi, you say "I hope in all the drama, we are not missing the marvelous background, the London of Dickens'
day." That's a very good point. I'll re-read a few sections just to try to capture some of the background of the times.

Jonathan, what a terrible fate Jaggers describes for the poor children. . . "he habitually knew of their being imprisoned, whipped, transported, neglected, cast out, qualified in all ways for the hangman, and growing up to be hanged." It reminds me of the description of Magwitch's life. From his first memories, he was born to be fit only for prison.

Babi · « **Reply #443 on:** August 22, 2012, 09:30:26 AM »

On a side note, I am currently reading one of Anne Perry's series set in Victorian England.
This series includes a remarkable character, Lady Vespasia Cumming-Gould, an elderly woman,
still beautiful, wealthy, influential, but far from typical. She was a revolutionary in her youth.
To quote her, "Privilege of birth is a duty, not an achievement!" I thought I would mention
Perry's character as a contrast to the general run of aristocrats in fiction, including Dickens.
I fully acknowledge, up front, that she is no doubt the exception, not the rule.

Knowing what we know now, we can recognize those little jolts of memory that Pipe was
experiencing with Estella. The fleeting expression, the movement of the hands, which he
could never quite associate with the housekeeper he had seen at Jaggers'. I also realized,
once I learned how violent a temperament Molly had, that Jaggers was not being gratuitously
cruel to her. To put it in more contemporary terms, the was 'keeping the lid on'. One
more indication that Jaggers is not entirely the villain we originally thought.

PatH · « **Reply #444 on:** August 22, 2012, 11:53:46 AM »

Yes, Jaggers is looking better than he did at first; he has some heart, though he keeps it well hidden. I wonder how he felt when he saw how Miss Havisham was bringing up Estella? Of course it's at least better than the life an unrescued Estella would have led, assuming she survived.

PatH · « **Reply #445 on:** August 22, 2012, 12:22:13 PM »

Babi, you mention the gaslights in the streets and getting about by candle. I was struck by how often people had to go about in the dark. Little Pip has to go upstairs to bed without a candle, and although he can get down again in the dark, he has to wait for a touch of dawn to steal the food for Magwitch--he dassn't light a candle because the noise of flint and steel might wake Joe or Mrs. Joe. (A footnote says that people first started using matches in 1827.) The night Magwitch arrives, Pip wakes up in the middle of the night, having let the candles and fire go out, and he has to grope his way down the stairs in the darkness and find the watchman to give him a light.

And how about the scene when Pip, obeying the note DON'T GO HOME, spends the night in a turkish bath, lit by the dim light coming through the perforations of the rushlight-holder, wondering how many insects are in the canopy of the bed, and imagining they are falling down on his face.

marcie · « **Reply #446 on:** August 22, 2012, 05:59:49 PM »

Babi, thanks for that contrasting character from the upper class. You're right that Jaggers seems more "human" in recent chapters, especially in the exchange that occurred between Jaggers and Wemmick in his office when Pip mentions Wemmick's home life.

PatH, you're right about the many references to the light and darkness. Not being able to rely on a lightswitch would make my life very different. I only experience that when the power goes out for a short time.

That scene about Pip's worrying about insects was quite vivid. Ugh!!

JoanP · « **Reply #447 on:** August 23, 2012, 08:08:18 AM »

So, when was the last time you spent a week on roller coasters and other more hair raising rides? Not for a while, I'll bet. But what if you have a grandchild pulling at your hand to take him on the Tower of Terror and another on to Splash Mountain and another and another... Actually getting soaked on Splash Mountain was a welcome relief in this heat!
Disney with seven little ones has taken years off my life - or added years, depending on the time of day...

I've loved coming in at the end of a long day and reading your posts - though I am so exhausted at the end of each day, I just can't gather thoughts and thumb-type on my iPad, as magical as it is.

I wonder about your reaction to the revelation of Estella's parentage? Did you see that coming? I thought she would come from humble background, but this was really humble! Can anyone describe what happened with Molly? That's all a blur.
I agree, Jagger's has softened - probably because he knows what a bad sort is her husband. He feels responsible and is trying to justify his own actions on behalf of his client - something he is not accustomed to doing.

Time to begin yet another "MAGICAL" day...hope yours is equally so!

Babi · « **Reply #448 on:** August 23, 2012, 09:29:02 AM »

Pip was able to complete his arrangement for Herbert with the money Miss Havisham gave him.
I suppose he felt he had a right to that money, but not to Magwitch's. Herberts' success was
very important to him. I had the great satisfaction of concluding that arrangement. "It was
the only good thing I had done, and the only completed thing I had done, since I was first
apprised of my great expectations."

I was quite alarmed when Pip received that mysterious letter at the last minute. I was
thinking, "Don't go! Don't go!" I was sure that it must be Compeyson; who else would have
been watching and would know Magwitch had returned? And Compeyson is a very dangerous man.
Still, it's coming just as they were getting ready to move Magwitch did suggest that their
escape plan might be known. He had to find out, didn't he?

JoanK · « **Reply #449 on:** August 23, 2012, 01:50:10 PM »

"I was struck by how often people had to go about in the dark." And even when thry had light, it was often one little candle for the whole room. Hard to imagi

Jonathan · « **Reply #450 on:** August 23, 2012, 02:05:22 PM »

'yet another "MAGICAL" day...hope yours is equally so!'

We're all very envious, Joan, of the wonderful time you're having with the grandchildren. If it's taking years off your life, remember the old saying: an hour of busy life is worth an age without a name. And didn't Dickens find a lot of excitement for his readers on the Thames River. Horrors! That poor man dressed in the clothes of poor, drowned souls! Will Magwitch succeed in escaping the gallows?

Molly was his wife. Now she is one of Jaggers trophies, like the head-casts of hanged men on his wall. A wild beast tamed, according to Wemmick. An extremely jealous women as proved in court. Very strong wrists, and hands - just like Estella's. Before Disney there was Dickens for unusual thrills.

Jonathan · « **Reply #451 on:** August 23, 2012, 02:07:43 PM »

Your're right, JoanK. Wandering about in the dark can have a lot of magic in it.

marcie · « **Reply #452 on:** August 23, 2012, 06:32:03 PM »

JoanP, thank you for checking in even though your 7 grands have exhausted you. I have the same question you do, or a similar one. I couldn't tell exactly who was who (between Molly and the "other" woman she presumably murdered) when Wemmick (in Chapter 48) tells Pip Molly's story. Who was jealous of whom? Was Magwitch the husband of the other woman or the common-law-husband or lover of Molly? We now know Magwitch and Molly are Estella's mother and father.

PatH · « **Reply #453 on:** August 23, 2012, 08:22:47 PM »

Magwitch was the informal husband of Molly; they had been married "over the broomstick", and had been together for some years. I was surprised to see this term used in an English novel; I thought it was an American South thing. Slaves couldn't marry, so they would express their intentions in a ceremony which included jumping over a broomstick, and getting married this way was described as jumping over the broomstick.

The other woman, who Molly presumably killed, is not well explained. She is older and stronger, and Molly was jealous of her, and I think we don't know anything more.

marcie · « **Reply #454 on:** August 23, 2012, 11:42:17 PM »

Thanks, Pat, for the clarification. It's interesting to note the "broomstick" phrase.

Wemmick mentions that he thinks that there is Gypsy blood in Molly. Wikipedia says "Historically, "broom-stick weddings" were first known in Wales. There has been dispute among scholars over whether the tradition originated among the Welsh people themselves or among Romani [gypsies] living in Wales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_broom

According to scholar Alan Dundes, who wrote extensively on the topic, the custom originated among Romani Gypsies in Wales (Welsh Kale Gypsies) and England (English Romanichal Gypsies). Scholar C.W. Sullivan III, however, argued that the custom originated among the Welsh people themselves, since the custom was known in Wales prior to the 1700s when he believed Gypsies arrived there. Historical records, however, show that Gypsies actually arrived in Wales earlier, in 1579."

Babi · « **Reply #455 on:** August 24, 2012, 09:10:20 AM »

If I'm not mistaken, PatH, it wasn't only slaves who 'jumped over the broomstick'. In
pioneering communities, where a traveling preacher only showed up occasionally, couples
would marry in this symbolic fashion, and then formalize the marriage the next time a preacher
was available.

Well, we were right to be alarmed at Pip's responding to that note. I really was not
expecting Orlick! Orlick could not have written a letter like that, so who did? He knows Pip caused him to lose his job on the Havisham estate, and believes he turned Biddy against him. He was always a violent man and now he fully intends murder.

Look at Pip's thoughts on this occasion: "Estella's father would believe I had
deserted him, would be taken, would die accusing me; even Herbert would doubt me;.....
Joe and Biddy would never know how sorry I had been that night; none would ever know what
I had suffered, how true I had meant to be...." Can anyone doubt that such an experience would be life-changing, and that Pip could never lose sight again of what mattered most?

So, the letter is explained. Any doubts about who Orlick's new buddy is? And as suspected,
he was the one who attacked Pip's sister. I begin to think that this episode is Dickens way of
tying up a lot of loose ends for us.

PatH · « **Reply #456 on:** August 24, 2012, 02:50:25 PM »

Quote from: Babi on August 23, 2012, 09:29:02 AM

Pip was able to complete his arrangement for Herbert with the money Miss Havisham gave him.
I suppose he felt he had a right to that money, but not to Magwitch's.

The contrast interests me. Pip has sort of earned consideration from Miss H. He has danced attendance on her for many years, and she deliberately let him believe that she was his benefactress, keeping him tied to her this way. She has offered him help. Most importantly, he isn't asking for money for himself, but to help a friend. He takes nothing for himself.

When Magwitch first appeared, Pip was appalled by this rough-looking, maybe vicious, criminal. For all he knows, M's money is the proceeds of a crime. You can see why he wants no part of it. But now Pip is beginning to see Magwitch as a person, to realize his good qualities. He knows the money was honestly earned, and earned with the specific goal of giving it to Pip. But he still wants no part of the money.

JoanK · « **Reply #457 on:** August 24, 2012, 03:05:05 PM »

At the library yesterday in the new books was one: "Dickens and the Workhouse" by Ruth Richardson. It deals with the question of how much of Dickens' description of the plight of children in his time stems from his personal experoience. Apparently, he was very secretive about his personal bad experiences as a child. David Copperfield is the novel where he describes his experiences best, especially working in a blacking factory as a child. But this wasn't recognized til after his death.

This author specifically asks where did Dickens, who was never in a workhouse, get his vivid description in Oliver Twist. It seems he lived a few doors from a workhouse for several periods in his chilhood, and possibly worked alongside children from there.

Dickens is protesting a change in the poor laws. Previously, the poor could obtain assistance in their families. With the new law, they had to go into workhouses, where the families were split up; the children were held in a prisonlike situation (the workhouse) and sent out to work from there.

The book is not very readable, unfortunately, but I'll skim through it, and see what else I see of interest.

marcie · « **Reply #458 on:** August 24, 2012, 08:06:47 PM »

Babi, you say "Can anyone doubt that such an experience would be life-changing, and that Pip could never lose sight again of what mattered most?" That's a good point. Pip seems to reach a greater recognition of his rejection of Joe and Biddy. Dickens does a good job of portraying Pip's sincere remorse and sorrow.

Pat, I agree that the main difference between Pip's taking Miss Havisham's money while rejecting the money from Magwitch is that he doesn't want Miss H's money for himself. He feels he owes it to Herbert.

Thanks for the information about that book, JoanK. Too bad the author isn't a better writer.

Babi · « **Reply #459 on:** August 25, 2012, 09:08:45 AM »

Would you believe, I looked at the last question for this section and absolutely could not recall
how Pip escaped Orlick. I had a vague recollection of someone saving him, but no idea who or
how. I pulled up an on-line GE, to read that again. Trabb's boy, of all people! Herbert, very
worried over Pip's taking off like that, decided to go after him and of course does not find him
where he expected. Stumbles across Trabb's boy, who figures out where Pip might be.
This is one outcome that leans rather heavily on coincidence, I would think.

PatH · « **Reply #460 on:** August 25, 2012, 12:21:21 PM »

Only one day more and we're on to the end. What haven't we talked about yet. Poor Pip is in a sad way physically, burned hands and arms, can't cut up his meat or dress himself, and now his burned arm has been rubbed raw by being tied up. He must be in a lot of pain, too.

PatH · « **Reply #461 on:** August 25, 2012, 08:00:54 PM »

Estella's mother Molly is part Gypsy, which is supposed to explain her jealous, passionate nature. So Estella is part Gypsy too. Where is the passion and jealousy?

marcie · « **Reply #462 on:** August 25, 2012, 11:10:19 PM »

Babi, Dickens does rely on quite a few coincidences in this book but in thinking about some of them, I can see that they might be more likely in his day when people knew everyone else's business and often lived in or around the same place all of their lives.

Pip did (coincidentally -- fortunately) drop the note from Orlick in his house, so they knew where he was going. Of Trabb's boy being their guide, Dickens says "Among the loungers under the Boar's archway, happened to be Trabb's Boy—true to his ancient habit of happening to be everywhere where he had no business—and Trabb's boy had seen me passing from Miss Havisham's, in the direction of my dining-place."

Pat, yes Pip must be in a lot of pain, more so with the assault by Orlick. I'm wondering if the scene with Orlick was to add tension/conflict to the installment? For Dickens to give Pip a chance to review his life and attitude towards Joe? Show Pip's basic goodness (even with his faults) compared with Orlick's evil actions based on envy and jealousy?

Good question, Pat, about Estella's nature. Of course, she wasn't raised by gypsies but by the controlling Miss Havisham. Estella is extremely single-minded. Could that be a result of passion under absolute self-control?

JoanP · « **Reply #463 on:** August 26, 2012, 07:54:21 AM »

Well. fun under the baking Orlando sun - torrential downpours and then the freezing Air Conditionning all within an hour's time...
Will need a week to recover, but happy to have made it back in time to chat about the rest of the novel with you this week - and out of Isaac's path. I've so enjoyed all your posts from this past week...Your conclusions about Estella's parentage have added a whole new understanding of how Pip was able to recognize that Molly was her mother - just from her appearance. I thought it sort of far-fetched when I first read it - now it makes sense!

FINAL CHAPTERS! - those hanging back for fear of divulging the ending, FEEL FREE to have your say! We're all on the same pages now!
Dickens seems to be wrapping up the story in these last chapters in his usual methodical way, giving everyone what they deserve. Before we get to the controversy regarding the two endings, let's consider how he gets there - and whether Pip and Estella deserve that happy ending.

Can you think of anything left hanging? (Pardon the pun.

) Actually, Magwitch never made it to the gallows, did he? Do you think he deserved the death sentence? This wasn't because of his original offense, was it? I forget what that was, does anyone remember? Do you think he had a fair trial? As fair as he could hope for? It seems that Dickens is criticizing the justice system, but where did it fail?

Really, so excited to be back and able to hear your reactions and questions to the rest of the book!

Babi · « **Reply #464 on:** August 26, 2012, 09:17:18 AM »

Quote

So Estella is part Gypsy too. Where is the passion and jealousy?

Hmm, good question, PatH. Maybe she was passionate about getting even. I understand
vengeance is a Gypsy tradition, also. And really, the only thing she didn't have and might
be jealous about was the comparative freedom other young women had. Though even that was
very limited, wasn't it? Most young women were expected to marry the man of their parents/
guardian's choice. But Miss Havisham did rob her of the ability to care, to love, that most
humans take for granted.

You're right, MARCIE. In a small village such as Pip's hometown a stranger like Herbert
would be immediately noticed and an object of curious attention. And Trapp's boy was certainly
never a shy type. I very much like your description of Estella's nature as "passion under
absolute self-control". That fits her very well.

JOANP, I don't think there was any question of a trial for Magwitch. He was under a sentence
of death if he ever returned, period. All that was necessary was to confirm that he was indeed
the man under that sentence, which his enemy was happy to do.

marcie · « **Reply #465 on:** August 26, 2012, 01:16:47 PM »

Welcome back Joan! I am glad you are safe from Tropical Storm Isaac.

Quote from: JoanP on August 26, 2012, 07:54:21 AM

Actually, Magwitch never made it to the gallows, did he? Do you think he deserved the death sentence? This wasn't because of his original offense, was it? I forget what that was, does anyone remember? Do you think he had a fair trial? As fair as he could hope for? It seems that Dickens is criticizing the justice system, but where did it fail?

In Chapter 42 Pip and Herbert learn from Magwitch that he had been in and out of jail as far back as he could remember. His major crime, passing stolen money, was spearheaded by Compeyson but Magwitch got the longer sentence since he had a previous record and Compeyson was sly enough to put most of the blame on Magwitch. The justice system seemed set up to look more favorably on men who "looked" like gentlemen. Someone like Magwitch would have little chance against someone as unscrupulous and clever as Compeyson.

From Chapter 42:

"At last, me and Compeyson was both committed for felony - on a charge of putting stolen notes in circulation - and there was other charges behind....

When the evidence was giv in the box, I noticed how it was always me that had come for'ard, and could be swore to, how it was always me that the money had been paid to, how it was always me that had seemed to work the thing and get the profit.

But, when the defence come on, then I see the plan plainer; for, says the counsellor for Compeyson, 'My lord and gentlemen, here you has afore you, side by side, two persons as your eyes can separate wide; one, the younger, well brought up, who will be spoke to as such; one, the elder, ill brought up, who will be spoke to as such; one, the younger, seldom if ever seen in these here transactions, and only suspected; t'other, the elder, always seen in 'em and always wi'his guilt brought home. Can you doubt, if there is but one in it, which is the one, and, if there is two in it, which is much the worst one?' And such-like. And when it come to character, warn't it Compeyson as had been to the school, and warn't it his schoolfellows as was in this position and in that, and warn't it him as had been know'd by witnesses in such clubs and societies, and nowt to his disadvantage? And warn't it me as had been tried afore, and as had been know'd up hill and down dale in Bridewells and Lock-Ups? And when it come to speech-making, warn't it Compeyson as could speak to 'em wi' his face dropping every now and then into his white pocket-handkercher - ah! and wi' verses in his speech, too - and warn't it me as could only say, 'Gentlemen, this man at my side is a most precious rascal'? And when the verdict come, warn't it Compeyson as was recommended to mercy on account of good character and bad company, and giving up all the information he could agen me, and warn't it me as got never a word but Guilty?

And when I says to Compeyson, 'Once out of this court, I'll smash that face of yourn!' ain't it Compeyson as prays the Judge to bprotected, and gets two turnkeys stood betwixt us? And when we're sentenced, ain't it him as gets seven year, and me fourteen, and ain't it him as the Judge is sorry for, because he might a done so well, and ain't it me as the Judge perceives to be a old offender of wiolent passion, likely to come to worse?" "

Magwitch and Compeyson are imprisoned on the same prison ship. Magwitch attempts to kill Compeyson. He is taken to the black hole (a solitary confinement cell) after landing his first punch, but he manages to escape some time around Christmas of 1812. This is the time when Magwitch meets Pip and Magwitch attempts to get Compeyson recaptured. When the soldiers find them, Compeyson said that he escaped to get away from Magwitch so his punishment was light. Magwitch was put in irons, retried, and deported to New South Wales for life. If he returned to England he would be put to death.

He never killed anyone. His death sentence seems unfair, although I can understand that the justice system wanted to get rid of such a repeat offender.

PatH · « **Reply #466 on:** August 26, 2012, 04:44:49 PM »

A footnote in my book points out that although illegal re-entry was still a capital crime, by the time the book takes place people were not usually executed for it.

JoanP · « **Reply #467 on:** August 26, 2012, 08:50:03 PM »

So it was Compeyson who informed the officials - Do you think the fact that Compeyson died in the struggle in the water influenced the Death penalty. Maybe I shouldn't say this - but it seemed as if Magwitch wanted to die...and wanted to take Compeyson with him, didn't it? Surely he knew there was a good chance they could both drown with the steamer bearing down on them. In a sense, Magwitch killed Compeyson , didn't he, Marcie? Do you see it like that? Dickens knew how to build suspense, didn't he?

The fact that the Jury who passed the sentences singled Magwitch out from the group of 32- mainly because he came returned, got my attention. Pip knew he came back for him. So in a sense, Magwitch died for him, too. I wondered what their life would have been like in Hamburg if they had succeeded in getting away?

marcie · « **Reply #468 on:** August 27, 2012, 12:31:43 AM »

Joan, yes, I kept thinking the story was going to end but Dickens had more and more suspenseful events to include!

I'm not sure that Magwitch did or would have killed Compeyson. He tells Pip in Chapter LIV:

"He added that he did not pretend to say what he might or might not have done to Compeyson, but, that in the moment of his laying his hand on his cloak to identify him, that villain had staggered up and staggered back, and they had both gone overboard together, when the sudden wrenching of him (Magwitch) out of our boat, and the endeavour of his captor to keep him in it, had capsized us. He told me in a whisper that they had gone down, fiercely locked in each other's arms, and that there had been a struggle under water, and that he had disengaged himself, struck out, and swum away.

I never had any reason to doubt the exact truth of what he thus told me. "

I do think that he died for Pip and he always knew that in coming back he was risking his life. He could have given him the money at a distance but he wanted to be with Pip.

bookad · « **Reply #469 on:** August 27, 2012, 04:07:13 AM »

reflecting back when Pip first met M. --how the criminal held him upside down and threatened him in order to obtain food etc., it seems hard to believe that the next day upon receiving all that he had asked for from Pip, that with his capture by the prison guards he should turn his feelings toward what would help him endure his prison time in Australia and put his dreams into making Pip a gentleman

have just finished reading the book and the last two chapters really caught my breath

going to search online now for the alternate ending --did anyone have the second ending included with their edition of the book?

have enjoyed everyone's comments and am reading more about the times surrounding England when this book was supposed to happen

Deb

Frybabe · « **Reply #470 on:** August 27, 2012, 08:08:29 AM »

I think I prefer the ending in the book over the alternate ending.

JoanP · « **Reply #471 on:** August 27, 2012, 08:26:02 AM »

Thanks for reminding me of more of the details of that struggle on the boat, Marcie. I see now that Pip had every reason to believe that Magwitch did not intend to kill Compeyson - but still think that the Jury sentencing Magwitch may have seen it differently and believed that he murdered the man who had informed on him.

JoanP · « **Reply #472 on:** August 27, 2012, 08:40:55 AM »

Quote

"...the criminal held him upside down and threatened him in order to obtain food etc., it seems hard to believe that the next day upon receiving all that he had asked for from Pip, that with his capture by the prison guards he should turn his feelings toward what would help him endure his prison time in Australia and put his dreams into making Pip a gentleman."

Deb, that was hard to understand, wasn't it? After reading more about Magwitch's background, this seems to have been the first time anyone had shown him any kindness in his life. At that moment, this little boy became the most important person in his life...the son he never had, maybe? Or maybe he saw himself in the lonely little boy - and wanted to give Pip the chance for a better life than he would ever have?

It's Pip that I didn't understand - how he was able to forget Joe, who had been there for him his entire life - and transfer all of his feelings and concern to Magwitch. Does he look at Magwitch as the father he never had? Or am I reading too much into their relationship?

Fry - I'm misunderstanding which ending you are calling the "alternate" ending that you prefer...Dickens wrote the "original ending that he had planned for the novel - and then was talked into changing it by literary friends, who persuaded him his readers would prefer a happy ending. Some editions include the original ending - discovered among Dickens' papers after his death. DEB - there's a link to the original ending in the heading at the top of this page.

Babi · « **Reply #473 on:** August 27, 2012, 08:49:18 AM »

My edition had the alternate ending. I don't remember what the original was; someone will
have to remind me. I rather like this one. Both Pip and Estella had life-altering experiences
that made them both better people. I'm glad they got a second chance at happiness together.

I also prefer to believe that Magwitch, dying, did hear Pip's words to him that his daughter
lived and was a beautiful lady. What a solace that would have been to him.
(I can be realistic when needed, but at heart I love to see justice triumph, love survive, and
the good guys win.)

Frybabe · « **Reply #474 on:** August 27, 2012, 09:15:40 AM »

Okay, I don't care for the original ending. I cannot see Estella remarried with a child.

My impression of the ending they used, is that Pip and Estella remain friends, but as Estella says, "and will continue friends apart." Pip's ending comment, "I saw the shadow of no parting from her," makes it a little ambiguous though, don't you? I also like the gothic type meeting at Satis House in the "evening mists" better that meeting her in London as she passes by in a coach.

PatH · « **Reply #475 on:** August 27, 2012, 11:36:24 AM »

Although no one knows for sure, not even Magwitch himself, I think M probably did kill Compeyson. M himself says:

Quote

He added that he did not pretend to say what he might or might not have done to Compeyson

That's the way a person talks when he isn't quite admitting something. In books it's okay to kill the villain when you're fighting for your life, though, and Magwitch clearly was. Compeyson was too determined for the struggle to be ended by anything less than death.

Certainly the Judge assumed M had killed C. My book points out that in real life Pip and Herbert would have gotten jail terms as accessories after the fact for the escape, even if no murder were proved.

PatH · « **Reply #476 on:** August 27, 2012, 11:42:41 AM »

Babi, I'm sure Magwitch heard Pip's words about his daughter. He squeezed Pip's hand at the right moments and smiled. You notice that Pip waits until the last possible moment, though, deliberately not giving M a chance to ask a lot of questions.

JoanK · « **Reply #477 on:** August 27, 2012, 02:19:11 PM »

I read the original ending in the heading. I agree that it is more suitable to the book.

marcie · « **Reply #478 on:** August 27, 2012, 04:42:16 PM »

JoanP, I don't think that Pip has forgotten about Joe. I think he says somewhere that he pushed thoughts of Joe out of his head to deal with the crises at hand--his worries that Magwitch will be caught and hanged for being in the country. Also he indicates repeatedly that he is so ashamed of his forsaking Joe (and Biddy) that he feels that he has no right to see them... that they could never forgive what he did.

JoanP · « **Reply #479 on:** August 27, 2012, 05:26:09 PM »

Maybe something like we pushed thoughts of our own parents out of our thoughts when we were Pip's age - trying to deal with other more important concerns.

I couldn't get over how Pip thought he'd just go home - and marry Biddy! Wasn't that a bit presumptuous? I thought he deserved it when he found she had married Joe. What did you think of that marriage? Do you think there was romance there? Did Biddy care for Joe as she once cared for Pip? What did Dickens intend to say with this?

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