Presidents Club, The by Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy~September Book Club Online

[JoanK]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

SEPTEMBER BOOK CLUB ONLINE   

As we head into another overheated and polarizing presidential campaign, at least it's a comfort knowing that former presidents have learned to mostly put aside partisan politics and work together.  Thanks to the brilliant investigative work of Time magazine's Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy, The Presidents Club uncovers a powerful secret fraternity, in which ex-leaders stay in the game by counseling inexperienced successors. - USA Today

Realizing that membership in the Presidents Club bestows a singular perspective can help explain certain minor mysteries of our political life. How, for example, could Clinton ever forgive George H.W. Bush, who in the 1992 campaign all but charged him with being a traitor, if not a Soviet stooge, for visiting Russia as a college student and protesting the Vietnam War “from foreign soil”? Why has Obama, whose presidential quest embodied a repudiation of everything George W. Bush stood for, heard scarcely a grumble about his policies from his once-belligerent predecessor? The answer lies in what Kennedy said to Arthur Schlesinger when asked to rank the presidents: “Only the president himself can know what his real pressures and his real alternatives are.” It’s a sentiment that virtually every president voices at one point or another in this book. - Washington Post

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

Chapters 1-9           9/1 through 9/8
Chapters 10-14       9/9 through 9/15
Chapters 15-19       9/16 through 9/22
Chapters 20-26       9/23 through 9/30

 
Related Links: Secrets of the Presidents Club - Video; 
Book TV with Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy;

Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold

" ON what basis do most Americans vote?   We stumble some of the time, but on the whole, America doesn't look bad when we look around the world."

I agree. And the reason we don't look bad is not that we always elect great people (we clearly don't) but that we hold our presidents accountable, and only let them hold office for 8 years at most.george Washington really did us a favor, there.

I think at bottom, many prople vote the economy. If things aren't going well, they want a change: if things are, they want to stay the same. Whether it is the current president's doing or not, he (someday she) gets the blame or praise.

[JoanK]

I've found our authors to seem fairly even-handed in apportioning praise and blame until they came to Carter. They really have nothing good to say about him: and there seems to be real anger there. I don't feel able to judge his presidency, or whether he committed treason or not --- but I would like to see another version to compare.

In their defense, it would be impossible to write a book like this without ones own political biases creeping in.

[HaroldArnold]

Ella, regarding  Carter’s treaty with Panama giving up U.S. sovereignty and operation of the canal, yes I suppose I did see it as a sign of Presidential weakness, and I was concern about the loss of U.S. control and the future inability to quickly move Naval forces and commercial cargo from the Atlantic to the Pacific and back.   However as a practical manner the transfer has not created any real problem.  To begin with the U.S. control was created about 1904 in the form of a 99 year lease scheduled to expire about 2003.  The 1980 treaty simply settled the Canal’s future issue about 25 years early.     Apparently the system is working

JoanP:  regarding the feral hogs, they were certainly edible but they were not the equivalent of farm fed pork. A lot depended on the age and health status of the particular animal.  By my measure  even the best young would not measure up to butcher shop quality.  I always refused the landowners right to a share. 

I sold the property in 2006 just a year after moving back to San Antonio to live here at Chandler after I received an unsolicited offer that I simply could not refuse.  I was sorry because previously I had remarked to the trapper that I could not imagine selling during the current year.  I know that this inconvenienced him as he had 3 months to complete his trapping and remove his corral traps from the back pasture.  I have not seen him since the sale.  I called his house 6 months later to find a new resident living there.  I suppose he moved to El Paso where he had family.   

[JoanK]

There are TV programs on the Discovery Channel featuring the people who trap feral hogs. Incredibly scarey work.

[bellamarie]

Ella~

The Presidency, not particularly, the one who is holding the office in any year, must be honored and respected for the sake of the country's reputation as a democracy abroad and throughout our history.  I think the club members realize the importance of maintaining this respect.

With all do respect, I must say, I would have agreed with this years ago.  But....we can not even begin to believe other leaders are blind to what goes on behind closed doors,  inside the walls of the Oval office, abroad or inside the club.  Leaders have lost respect for our "presidents and presidency" in spite of all the cover ups of crimes and behaviors of these presidents.  With the internet at anyone's disposal and close friends and foes inside the White House, with access to all of the information, there are constant leaks.  In my opinion,  it is a myth to think the "majesty of the presidency" still exists.  These presidents are covering up for each other, with the idea of protecting "the presidency"

I do not want to sound cynical, but I just don't see our presidents of late, being respected around the world.  I don't see honor being shown, when our enemies are attacking us not only on our homeland, but on our American embassies abroad.  When our American flags and pictures of our president are being burnt, I am not seeing honor for our presidency.  I fear these men/Presidents have harmed the presidency, and lost the respect and honor it used to represent.  Lies, crimes, treason and dishonorable behavior tarnishes the presidency, regardless of how they come back and play a role in helping.  Americans may be able to forgive, but our enemies do not, and see these as signs of weakness.  So....does the club, really exist, or is it fallacy, an image of what these presidents have created, for their own self serving purpose?  Just wondering.....

Found this quote that seems a bit fitting.  lolol

Warren G Harding
“I have no trouble with my enemies. I can take care of my enemies in a fight. But my friends, my goddamned friends, they’re the ones who keep me walking the floor at nights!”

http://www.allamericanblogger.com/14498/44-great-president-quotes/

Okay got to run the Michigan vs Notre Dame football game is about to begin.

Ciao for now~

[threadheadnet]

The American Presidents series is sort of a "Cliff Notes" for presidential biographies; here's the one on Carter #39:
http://www.americanpresidentsseries.com/bookpage.asp?NUM=39
Douglas Brinkley wrote the Ford entry; he also wrote a biography on Jimmy Carter. Not sure why Reagan's #40 is missing from the series; they have one on H.W. Bush #41. #42-44 still to come.

One thing to consider in reading this book is how much the authors used corporate references (CNN, Time, etc.) and how little they used international sources. At least that's my read on their sources and methods.

Other random thoughts: do we want our President to utilize all resources available? If s/he needs to make a decision, should resources be limited to people with similar idealogical leanings and/or with spotless records?
  

[bellamarie]

Not sure what happened, I wanted to block out the cuss word in that quote, but for some reason it would not let me back to modify my post.  My apologies, I would NEVER use that word, nor intentionally post it. 

Ciao for now~

[Ella Gibbons]

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS but I must lead on as our final week is approaching -

Chapter 20.  Bush, Clinton.

Do you know I had trouble locating President H. W. Bush in the book - skimming back over it.  I had to look in the index and he does have a few comments scattered throughout, rather on single pages it seems.  I liked him, a thoughtful man, not colorful, not loud.  Although at the time I was furious for him for invading Kuwait and then not even taking out the man it was all about it.  I suppose part of my anger was because my daughter had joined the Army Reserve unit as a nurse to help pay her expenses in the PH.D. program in Pittsburgh and her unit got called up.  A busload of nurses left their base as we waved goodbye and my husband got tears in his eyes saying this is not right.

Of course, she was home in six months time but there were scuds going overhead all the time and not knowing what they might be dropping.

And our book states this:

"The United States was the world's clearly dominant military power; but the stability of the region and the security of the world's oil supplies required more than a unilateral response and Bush set about assembling his unprecedented coalition and lining up support for an invasion if Saddam refused to retreat."

And his son had to finish the job without that support!

How ironic it all seems now.   We are still engaged and will be, it seems, for decades of instability in the Middle East.

My soapbox for the day.

_______________________

[Ella Gibbons]

Clinton - Well let's have it!

Shall we start with the good?  (later, the bad)

What do you say? 

President Ford said of Clinton "This guy can sell three-day old ice."  Are you charmed?

 He's still very much around for a former president, a national address at the Democratic Convention, a TIME cover story this week titled OPTIMISM - a cover story written by him (interesting, I can't remember when this happened before).



 

[HaroldArnold]

The Jan 1991 Gulf war to stop Iraq’s invasion and annexation of oil rich Kuwait was the major achievement of the Bush one  Presidency because it was a true international operation with 26 nations participating.  It was authorized by the U.N. and led by the U.S., but including British, other European and even Russian units it slashed through Kuwait in true blitzkrieg fashion at which point President Bush judged its mission complete with the liberation of Kuwait, halting the operation leaving Iraq its self unoccupied with Sadam Husain still in power.   The Bush decision to halt the operation with Husain still in power was probably a factor that cost him the 1992 election for a 2nd term.

We now begin the last week assignment, Chapters 20 – 26.   This discussion is now open for discussion of the presidencies of Bill Clinton, George W. Bush (Bush 2), and Barack Obama.  In addition it is open for discussion of the activities of any ex- Presidents who have lived and functioned during the period as members of the Club.


 

[HaroldArnold]

I too noted what I judged the author's rather limited coverage of thee Bush (one) administration.    I got the idea that the Publisher might have been pushing the authors at this point for a finished manuscript?

Also I want to mention the fact that I am having trouble using my new HP notebook, Windows s 7 note book.  Perhaps I just don't understand it yet but its navigation seems different from what I have been use to in the Windows XP and earlier Windows.
Right now it is either the HP Notebook or the I Pad, and for more than two sentences the notebook with its keyboard is the best.     

[JoanP]

"ironic" - such a good way to describe the interactions among the sitting president and the members of the club.  In one sense, they were a great resource, in another, a big headache that demanded the President's constant attention.  I'm thinking of President Clinton now, and the masterful way he used the knowledge and experience of the former presidents.

Just finished Chapter 21 this morning...about Jimmy Carter going to N. Korea...and then Haiti as Clinton's fact finder and messenger - each time turning into a negotiator, making deals contrary to US and Clinton's policies.  Once again the authors describe his actions as "traitorous."

Was all this general knowledge at the time - or just coming out now?  I had no idea that Jimmy's actions were anything other than helpful to our country's foreign relations.  On the surface, I suppose everything turned out well, but I was totally unaware of all ths shouting  and hair-pulling back in the White House.  Where did Carter get his nerve?

[threadheadnet]

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS but I must lead on as our final week is approaching -
  Chapter 20.  Bush, Clinton.
Do you know I had trouble locating President H. W. Bush in the book - skimming back over it.  I had to look in the index and he does have a few comments scattered throughout, rather on single pages it seems.

from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biography/bush-family/
"George Bush's mother, Dorothy Bush, had a strong influence on her son. Her lessons in modesty and humility tipped almost to the extreme as she strove to impress upon her children the importance of being team players and not participating in, in her word, "braggadocio." While her sense of humanity and compassion may have left a positive impression on Bush, many also believe that her influence led to a discomfort in calling attention to himself that may have handicapped him for a life in the political spotlight. ..."

Reading about George HW Bush and Clinton working together really fed my soul. I always read a political history as the Presidential election draws near, as a reminder of what our country has been through.

[HaroldArnold]

I do think George H.W. Bush single term deserves more attention than our authors give him in the book.  True he was a one term President but a lot happened during his tenure including the effective end of the Cold War when the Berlin wall fell from the collapse of the Communist governments in Russia and eastern Europe particularly East Germany. He managed the creation of the coalition that quickly ended the Iraq occupation of Kuwait though his abrupt stop at  the border leaving Sudam in power in Iraq was probably a mistake.  The 1992 election was very close but Clintons win ended his lease on 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

[JoanK]

I wonder if there are fewer sources available for the more recent presidents than for the older ones?

[Ella Gibbons]

A short comment.  Out of curiousity I went to our Columbus Metro Library and typed in Presidents H.W.Bush and Bill Clinton.   The former had 4 books written about him; the latter - I gave up counting after 24.

[bellamarie]

Harold~ I agree, I really was hoping for more on #41 President Bush.  I like the relationship, he and Clinton formed.  It gives me a new look at them.  I loved the term #43 Bush referred to Clinton's Lewinsky scandal as "the shadow" lolol  That is hilarious.  When I read this"

President Ford said of Clinton "This guy can sell three-day old ice." 

I thought...spot on!  He still can do that. Although I think only to those who have forgotten or forgiven his despicable behavior inside the White House. His speech at the DNC's  convention seemed to possess that same attention grabber personality.  I am not enamored with him anymore so I just sat thinking....here we go again.  I noticed the authors did not mention anything about Obama calling on Clinton even though Clinton had much expertise on the economy.  So Obama wants to be the new, young, hip president leaving behind Clintonism.  Well, whichever way he saw the presidents before him, he still is dealing with the same issues these presidents had to deal with.  So wouldn't you think he would use them? 

JoanP, No, this is not just coming out about Carter's treasonous behavior.  I remember hearing about it, and reading about it years ago.

 

 

[HaroldArnold]

I count 11 ex-Presidents since Hoover who have been members of the Clubs.  The post presidential careers of each of these have been described in greater or lesser detail in our book.  I suspect if one of us had the software capable scanning the digital text counting the number of times each member’s name appeared, the name that would emerge with the highest number would be Richard Nixon, probably by a large margin.

It is the logical result of his foreign travel, first as President to Red China, and most later as an ex-President to Soviet Russia with working stop overs in London or other European capitals.  His China trips participated its opening to U.S. and other Western trade a relationship that has become a key contributor to western economic growth and individual prosperity.  By the 1980’s Nixon knew everyone in power in Key Governments east and west.   Is it any wonder that in the 1980’s and 90’s  he became the “go to” man for sitting presidents as diverse as Ronald Regan and Bill Clinton?

Of course Nixon’s driving motivation during his post Presidential career was his redemption after his presidential disgrace criminally]y involved in the Watergate scandal.   While there can be no doubt that a person involved in ordinary business who committed similar crimes would never have been allowed  to escape with a mere resignation, as President as a fact he was allowed this course and he used it.   Through his own effort he was able to achieve a pretty impressive come back

[HaroldArnold]

All participants are urged to mention other  particular Club member assignments similar to my above post on Nixon that has impressed them.  Also specific Presidents who have used Club members for special purpose.

Regarding Nixon's post presidential travel I wonder about how it was financed.  It seems most often to have been his idea, not the idea of a sitting president assigned to Nixon.  I don't think he had the deep pockets he would need for such truly private travel, but? I bet somehow the government paid.

The same question would apply to other Club Members.  Carter too did substantial post presidential travel but his travel does appear more definitely the sitting presidents assignment.

[JoanK]

That's a good question. Our presidents all have different personal financial situations: I would hate to think that you had to be rich to be a successful ex-president. Now they all think they have to build an expensive presidential library.

Of course, they have many opportunities to earn money as consultants, speakers, authors, etc. They all have a lot more money than you and I do. But they also have more expectations financially.

[bellamarie]

I just finished the book and must say, even though I have enjoyed reading it and discussing it, and feel I have learned a great deal, I am very disappointed in the amount of time given to Nixon.  I was so looking forward to more on both Bush 41 & 43, more on Clinton, and especially since Obama is our sitting president, I so hoped the authors would have at least covered more about the DNC's choice to back Obama and push Hillary out of the race.  It says:  pg. 505

The three brothers, Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama, had plenty to quarrel about: Clinton, christened by novelist Toni Morrison as "America's first black president," did not have an easy time welcoming a new messiah, let alone the man who beat his wife for the nomination."

As I recall it, there was NO beating Hillary.  The meeting that took place at Diane Feinstien's house was the turning point to push Hillary out of the race.  She did not concede, and had the DNC NOT cheated her out of her electoral votes in Florida and Michigan by splitting them and giving some to Obama, it was clear she could have been the one on the Democratic ticket.  These authors, for what ever purpose, was more interested in Nixon than any of the other presidents, and I feel a bit cheated in the last chapters of the book.  It's as if once they covered Nixon, they rushed to end the book, IMO.

In the Acknowledgements they wrote: 

We were lucky to have in John Huey and Rick Stengel two bosses who know history is told best through big personalities and long narratives.  Rick and John supported this project from its inception and never complained when we occasionally seemed more interested in 1968 than 2012.

By admission of the authors, they intended this book to be a large portion to Nixon.  Not, that I minded covering Nixon, but it was so unfair to the reader (at least me) to not give more time to the presidents who came after him.  I would like to have read more on Obama's childhood, schools attended, pre politics, and much more about the campaign.  The only thing the authors covered where Obama used Clinton in any large way, was having him go and negotiate the release of the two American journalists from North Korea.  And how petty was Obama to want Clinton to remain on the aircraft, while the two women walked off, so Obama could take all the credit himself and deny Bill the credit due. Good for Lisa Ling for going to bat for Clinton and changing Obama's mind.

I thought this was especially telling how Clinton has lost effectiveness, when it comes to the American people.:  pg. 519 

Democrats facing reelection found it useful, however, to have Clinton at their side.  A Gallup survey in mid-October revealed that all voters, but particularly independent voters, would be more likely to vote for candidates if Clinton campaigned on their behalf than if Obama did.  He jumped back into the game like a man starved for a meal.  He campaigned for sixty-five candidates at more than a hundred events, appeared on Meet the Press, The Daily Show, even Fox News.......pg. 520 Though Clinton was careful in all his conversations never to say anything critical about Obama, he often sounded like the lifeguard who was trying to save a drowning man......But all of Clinton's public testimony could not avert the inevitable.  Voters turned Election 2010 into a revolt, tossing dozens of incumbent House Democrats overboard, Republicans gained sixty-three seats (and majority control) in the House, and narrowly missed gaining control of the Senate; they captured more state legislative seats than at any time since 1928.

Although polls showed the people, especially Independents,  preferred Clinton's presence, in the end neither Clinton nor Obama was going to change their minds.  I think while Clinton is still likeable, he is not necessarily believable.  The outcome of this 2012 election will be very interesting, and I can't wait years from now, to read how history will write it.

Ciao for now~
 

[HaroldArnold]

Belamarie, as we approach the end of the book we are all realizing that the Authors of our book have given much more verbal coverage to some of the ex-President members than to others.  In fact some were almost ignored. 

The only reason that I can come up with  is that the unequal coverage is the result of the Author's purpose in writing the book which seems to me is to describe the nature and extent of post presidential work assigned to Club members by each successive sitting President.  Some ex-President members had more inclination to be involved in actual work than others causing them to actively seek the sitting Presidents attention.  Also some sitting Presidents were more inclined than others to enlist an ex-Presidents service.  In fact Nixon eagerly sought the attention of the sitting President, and he was certainly successful in getting assignments from Regan and later Clinton.  This was his route to redemption from his Watergate disgrace.  Also Carter and Ford who had been removed from office by re election defeat after a single term in Carters case and only a fraction of a single term for Ford seemed inclined to seek assignment.  I think this is the explanation for the unequal coverage.   

[bellamarie]

Harold~ Yes, I agree some were almost ignored.  The part the authors wrote in their acknowledgement leaves me to believe their intent was as they said, "occasionally seemed more interested in 1968 than 2012."  It's as if they got to Nixon (1968) and could not leave him.  Sorta like Nixon, would not go away. Maybe the authors were trying to redeem him as well.

[HaroldArnold]

Yes, during his years an a member of the Club, Richard Nixon was unique, definitely a man on a mission.  His whole purpose was to achieve a degree of redemption from his Watergate disgrace.  I judge his work during the1980's and early 90's useful to the sitting presidents.  Nixon died before the end of Clinton's first term.  I think both of these presidents appreciated his help. This while short of redemption for his Watergate crimes, was something.

[HaroldArnold]

Let's descuss  Bill Clinton's problem that led to his impeachment by the House of Represenatives.  How was a formal trial by the Senate avoided.

Also let's discuss the George W. Bush (2) presidency.  How might his family experience with his dad have effected his decisions as President?

[Ella Gibbons]

Enough, enough about NIXON, we have three more presidents to discuss.

I must say it, I lilked Bill Clinton, young, enthusiastic, personable.  (let's forget the Monica business, we all know about it).  His programs live on - Americorps, his latest, the Global Iniative Foundation. 

 Both Romney and Obama will be at CGI's annual meething where they will be joined by the new presidents of Libya and Egypt.   Oh, how we need global communication, friendship - some counstries so mired into past culture and enmities they cannot see the future.

It's one step forward and we need more steps and other club members to get involved. 

DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING NEW ABOUT CLINTON EITHER AS A PRESIDENT OR AS A CLUB MEMBER IN THE PAGES OF THIS BOOK?

[Ella Gibbons]

We were posting together, HAROLD. 

GOOD QUESTION, HAROLD.  WE HAVE TWO ON THE BOARD.  PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND, - or post!!!! 

[HaroldArnold]

The Time magize fot this week includes an article by one of our club members, Bill Clinton.   It is entitled "Big Ideas That Are Changing The World..". Have any of you read this article?   I just completed a quick read and judge it worth further comment that will come later

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, I can't find in the book where the impeachment of Clinton is written, but anyone that can't remember the details can read it here:

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/clinton.htm

When I think of all the past presidents sinful affairs, Clinton's was no worse, in my opinion.  I did think it was dreadful, absolutely dreadful, that he used the Oval Office, but as you will read  in the article cited above, he retained a 70% approval of the public throughout. 

No longer will the media protect a president from such pecadillos as they have in the past. 

Did it come down to partisan politics in the end?  What do you think?

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, see my post #248 above.  I did read the TIME magazine article.

[bellamarie]

Ella~ 

When I think of all the past presidents sinful affairs, Clinton's was no worse, in my opinion.  I did think it was dreadful, absolutely dreadful, that he used the Oval Office, but as you will read  in the article cited above, he retained a 70% approval of the public throughout.

Why do you suppose he had such a high approval rating?  I was a HUGE Bill Clinton supporter and he did NOT have my approval, after learning about his behavior.  I still remember he and Hillary walking together after getting off Air Force One, after the story broke, and how terribly sad Hillary seemed.  Its bad enough for a couple to go through an affair, but to have to go through it with the media and public, is just so sad.  I read Hillary's book and I cried when I read how she reacted to learning about it.

Here is just one of many sites that show presidents who had affairs or  ladies in the white house. 

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/4949

I also read Monica Lewensky's book, and she did admit to pursuing him, NOT that it let's him off the hook.  Bill would have stuck to the denial forever, had that little black Gap dress not appeared.

[mabel1015j]

Loved the statement on pg 449, the last sentence in the chapter.

By 2000, it was practically a club bylaw: even when you were doing Carter a favor, you never knew what you might get in return. But it probably won't feel good.

Made me chuckle.

Carter probably had parents who thought they had to be careful not to spoil their children, so, imitating his parents, he had to throw in a negative statement when he had made a positive one about the current president. (Can't be too nice to them, you'll spoil them. I knew some parents like that.) But he obviously thinks he is smarter than everyone else, also. So he has to get his point of view out there before he talked to Clinton. Very like Nixon. Altho, i'm sure each of them would vehemently deny being anything like the other.

I understand the authors spending so many pages on Nixon, he lived a long time as a member of the Club and put himself into play. I can also understand their not spending much time on Ford or Bush #1 bcs they didn't involve themseves in the Club very much. Other parts of their lives didn't fit the theme of the book.

I think we have learned that presidents generally are very smart people, have to have huge egos even to think about attempting to go for the job, and are very complicated people. We tend to think of smart people as only that. "he is so smart how could he have done/said that?" But being intelligent in one arena (general knowledge, politics, law, logic, etc) doesn't necessarily make one whole/smart as a psychological person. Where we see these smart guys screw up is when their psychological needs have taken over.

I am amazed at how easily both Nixon and Clinton rehabilitated their reputations. I'm not judging that, i'm just surprised that the country seemed to get over their misdeeds so quickly and thoroughly. However, they did it w/ different styles. Clinton is just flatout Southern charming. Anybody i know who has met him, male or female, has said so. Charm is not a word that anybody has ever used w/ the name Nixon. But there seems to be no doubt that both were/are two of the smartest political minds in the last 60 yrs, maybe ever. BUT, both were considered to be put out of office!?!

I guess they both can wear the title "The Comeback Kid."

Jean

[HaroldArnold]

Good point mable

Our Chandler House players has a performance this mornisg so i' ll be away until this Afternoon.

Harold

[Ella Gibbons]

BELLEMARIE - "Why do you suppose he had such a high approval rating?"[/i][/b]

Some men can get away with affairs - think John Kennedy.  Think of all the streets, buildings, etc.  that are named for him throughout the country today.  The Kennedy Center.    He is revered and yet he had women in the White House also.  Gosh, we should do a book on his campaign and presidency someday.

JEAN [i]"there seems to be no doubt that both were/are two of the smartest political minds in the last 60 yrs, maybe ever"[/i]

POLITICAL MINDS, I think so, too.  And persistence in the face of indomitable odds.  Both of them "comeback kids."  They were/are resolved they would not go down in history as disgraced presidents and history  is proving both right. 

Carter was not disgraced, but a weak president and was determined to not be forgotten in retirement.

It's all interesting, isn't it.  These men, so ambitious with huge egos, and yet different in retirement agendas. 

[Ella Gibbons]

GEORGE W. - A man easy to understand or complicated?

What do you think about him?

[bellamarie]

Not that I cared one way or the other, for George W. when he was president, I think he was easy to understand.  He made up his mind and that was that.  He didn't seem to care about getting popular approval in the polls for his decision to go to war with Iraq, and maybe because he had Congress's vote.  He showed great strength when we were attacked on 9-11. 

I am still waiting for our sitting president, Obama, to show strength in the most recent attacks on this 9-11, on our embassies, and the killings of our Ambassador, and the other 3 men.  I agree there are times for diplomacy, and then there are times you send a clear message, violence against the United States will not be tolerated.  Having Hillary as Secretary of State at a time like this I would have thought she, like Bill, would have shown great courage and strength against terrorist attacks.  She is looking so very weak, and this may be what will hurt her chances for ever becoming president, or a club member one day. 

Bill may have missed some of his targets when he sent missiles into Baghdad, after them trying to assassinate George H.,(pg. 422), but he took action to show it would not be tolerated.  NO excuses, NO apologies, NO blame, and NO tolerance of such attempts on a past president.   

Much like, Kennedy, Nixon and Clinton, I think history will write George W. as a president of intelligence, courage, and strength, in times of necessity and adversity, in foreign affairs.

Much like Carter, I think history will write Obama as a president of weakness.  If ever there is a president who NEEDS the president's club, I feel it is Obama, needing Clinton.

[JoanP]

GEORGE W. - A man easy to understand or complicated?

I agree with Bella, Ella - I found GW easier to understand than Nixon, than Jimmy Carter.  The authors seemed to dismiss him as a spoiled, priviliged son of an ex-President.  I really don't think that was the case.

There was talk about the report he had drawn up  about the children of 40 ex-Presidents and how they had fared in life.  This really seemed to set his light a fire..

~ many couldn't hold jobs, died young, suffered from addictions and depression.  One became president, none became a governor.

It occurred to me - there haven't been many sons growing up in the White House recently.  Daughters seem to do better than the report describes.

GW wondered what he would do after being president.  He was a young man when he left office. Campaigns were what he loved more than anything.  Idon't hear much about him now, do you?

I enjoyed reading about the friendship between Clinton and George W.  I wasn't aware of that.  They really seemed to like and respect one another while in office and as exPresidents too.  Clinton found Bush personally appealing and  a shrewd politician.  Liked giving the new president advice - on speech-making no less.  Taught him the secret of a good speech was the timing.   Imagine that.    .
The authors tell us both of these men "limped out of office, battered, exhausted and unapologetic...the club would become their infirmary."  That indicates to me that they are still friends, can call on one another for support and understanding.  

ps.  the little Gap dress was blue...

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding  George W. I was sort surprised when he beat the popular lady Democratic  Governor Ann Richards to become Governor of Texas in January 1995.  I was not much concern with politics at the time but noted in 1999 even though he was on the ballot for a 2nd term as governor he was also seeking the Republican Nomination for President.   In the General election in 2000 in Texas, he was on the ballot both for Governor and President.   He ended winning both races.  I remember there was an impressive Nationally TV broadcast in December 2000 during which he resigned as Texas Governor to be inaugurated President Jan 20, 2006.  Do any of you remember that broadcast?

I early September 2001 a few days after Labor day I saw President Bush in San Antonio at the National Historic Park, Mission San Jose.  He came their to dedicate the newly restored 18th century grist mill giving a dedication speech to several thousand spectators.  I was seated with the Docent corp in the audience about 100 feet away from the President.  I had my 1st generation, 2 Megapixel digital camera, and shot about 75 pictures many of which included the president.  A Secret Service person had open the camera and pass it when I entered the seating area.  It was I think less than a week later when the 9/11 attack on New York change drastically the nature of the Bush (2) Presidency.   



 

[mabel1015j]

O.k., i'm a little slow, but i just noticed that on the intros to each presidential grouping there are key symbols at the beginning and end of each one. what do they stand for?

On pg 478, George W says,"i tend to be a quick judge of people. I don't know how accurate i am, but all that matters is what i think."   What an amazing admission! "It doesn't matter if i'm right or wrong as long as i'm making a decision!?!" this from the man who said "i am the Decider." i guess he was! And i guess that's the answer to our going into Iraq........."i don't know if it's right or wrong, but i'm making the decision to invade another country!?!"

That's VERY scary.

On the other hand i have been very impressed that he followed his Dad's model and has stayed under cover since he left office. It's very interesting how the last four presidents have been able to put partisanship aside and just be human beings. Is that all attributable to Clinton's personality? It obviously couldn't have happened if Carter had been in Clinton's spot.

Ella - i haven't figured George W out yet. I think he is probably a smart man who was much tamed by his wife and later by his father's influence. I probably would like to have a beer with him.  I think he would like to think of himself as uncomplicated, but i'm not sure that's an accurate self assessment. The drinking and the high jinks were happening for a reason.

I'm a little surprised at how malleable Bill Clinton has been - being willing to do or not do whatever Bush and Obama have wanted him to do, especially staying in the plane (at first) after the return of the N Korean hostages. I haven't finished that section, so i may have to revise that when i finish.

Harold, what an interesting story abt Bush's visit and your being able to take pictures. I've always wondered about how nervous secret service people are about cameras. It seems they could be a devious device. Wasn't it in one of the Jms Bond movies or some other spy movie where a camera was modified to be a gun?

Interestingly Joan, i didn't interpret the authors as saying W was a spoiled privileged son. Oh, i guess privileged is accurate and maybe not good for much for his first 40 yrs, but i thought they ended w/ his redeeming himself. While he was president, and knowing only what i read or saw on the news, i did think he was not kind to G.H.W. i remember someone asking who his role models were - or something to that effect and he said Jesus.......o.k., that's a good answer, but i thought it was a slap at his Dad to not have included him.

I read in the early 90s a book by Martin Seligman titled "Learned Optimism". The theme of the whole book was how optimism can be a force in your life. But the thing that i still remember and think of in every election is his saying that the candidate who is the most positive and optimistic about the future, the country, the economy, etc almost always wins. You can see that, just think of Reagan and then Clinton and Obama. It seems to me that every campaign staff should have read that book, but apparently not. I was surprised (pg519) when Clinton told Dems in 2010 to brag abt what the Obama administration had accomplished, but the White House resisted, preferring to emphasize Rep faults over Dem strengths. WELL.........guess who was right.....again!

Jean

[bellamarie]

Jean~  "i don't know if it's right or wrong, but i'm making the decision to invade another country!?!"

I personally think, every president who is facing a decision on going to war, may feel this exact same way.  They never know if they are right or wrong, but they make the decision and live with it.  When John Kennedy sat there waiting to see if his call was right with the Cuban Missile crisis, I am sure he wondered if he was wrong or right, in the way he was handling it.  Imagine if he would have been wrong.  I believe they consider all the information provided to them, they have advisers, generals, etc., etc. giving them their expertise and in the end, right or wrong, the President alone MUST make that final decision. 

Harold how exciting to get the opportunity to get your picture.  Ironically, today in my hometown here in Ohio we had President Obama, and candidate Gov. Mitt Romney visit.  I was not able to go see either due to scheduling conflicts.  I have had the privilege to see Carter, Clinton, and Kerry speak when they were running for president.  I took many pics especially of Clinton.  lol

I think the author may have been implying George W. was privileged, and spoiled compared to Clinton.  Seems Laura gave G.W. the ultimatum with the drinking.  Behind every successful man is a woman.  lolol