Author Topic: Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Prediscussion (Read 34274 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #80 on:** March 27, 2009, 08:45:06 PM »

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"Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -

"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine

The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.

Discussion Schedule:

April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27 Discussion Topics
April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 11-14 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-166
April 15-19 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238
April 20-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts

Topics for Pre-discussion

1. What do you know of hedgehogs and their habits? Do you see anything "elegant" about these critters?

2. Can you find information about this first-time author? We could use a link if you can copy it here.

3. This has been called a "philosophical fable"? Intimidated? What is your knowledge of philosophy?

4. How difficult must it be to have one's first novel immediately become an international best seller?

5. What is a "concierge"? Wouldn't you love this job in a posh Parisian neighborhood?

Relevant Links:
French-English Dictionary;

Discussion Leaders: JoanP & Eloise

JoanP · « **Reply #81 on:** March 27, 2009, 08:50:00 PM »

Five more days...have you started to read the book? It's so hard to come in here and not start talking about it!!!

LauraD, tis good to know that you can hear Mahler now. Imagine sitting way back in your loge, TV blaring out in the front room, but you snug and cozy reading your favorite book, listening to Mahler...

Uh, oh...I've got to get out of here. It's getting so near. How is your library hold list moving, Jackie?

One thing you might want to do - if you are just starting out - Make a list of some of the unfamiliar words you come across. This is such a well-written book, I'm sure it is going to stretch us in many ways, vocabulary being just one of them.

A bientôt - talk to you soon!

JoanP · « **Reply #82 on:** March 27, 2009, 08:59:09 PM »

Five more days...have you started to read the book? It's so hard to come in here and not start talking about it!!!

LauraD, tis good to know that you can hear Mahler now. Imagine sitting way back in your loge, TV blaring out in the front room, but you snug and cozy reading your favorite book, listening to Mahler...

Uh, oh...I've got to get out of here. It's getting so near. How is your library hold list moving, Jackie?

One thing you might want to do - if you are just starting out - Make a list of some of the unfamiliar words you come across. This is such a well-written book, I'm sure it is going to stretch us in many ways, vocabulary being just one of them.

A bientôt - talk to you soon!

Gumtree · « **Reply #83 on:** March 28, 2009, 04:07:39 AM »

We're getting close to lift off now !

I have just copied the schedule and noticed that the pagination in my copy is slightly different from that shown - my copy is likely to be simply a different edition published for sale in the antipodes - The Section Headings are the same of course - just thought you might like to know....

fairanna · « **Reply #84 on:** March 28, 2009, 10:03:37 AM »

Well I love the talk about museums My best friend and I used to go to the St Louis Museum as often as we could .. in nice weather we would take fresh fruit and sit on the grass and just look at the building when we were finished I remember when we were in Paris at the Mona Lisa they had a barrier of brass posts with a velvet rope to keep people away and this one man (wont call him a gentelman) went around it and touched the painting..What was he trying to prove?And all the Venus de Milo's...wish I were there right now..will check the web sites you posted Joan and know I will enjoy that I have visited the several museums in the past ...via the internet and when people ask what I do on the computer I tell them I VISIT FAMOUS PLACES

I started the book and in fact have had a bit of trouble putting it down I am not going to finish it until we reach that point here but it is tempting...

We always stayed at a small hotel a couple of blocks from the Champs we had a balcony and those wonderful robes and I don't know I recall someone who was in charge to welcome us and make sure we had everything we needed but we went to Europe in 53 and returned to the states in 57 .. I do recall leaving Germany after two years when my husband was reassigned to France and it was night time when all of the sudden out of the darkness we could see the lights of Paris ..I have to admit I was breathless to think we would be living in France for two years and Paris was only 60 miles from the base !!!! I feel breathless just remembering ...

JoanP · « **Reply #85 on:** March 28, 2009, 10:22:50 AM »

Anna, that sounds like a real hardship post - Paris, for six months! I so envy you - in hindsight! Tell us, do you have any art, art history background - or do you enjoy art - purely on your own terms?

It is with relief I hear you say you are having difficulty putting the book down. My concern is that some may become overwhelmed at the philosophical references - fearing that our author , professor of philosophy, assumes too much of us. Please, don't forget - our concierge is self-taught, not confined at all by educational viewpoints of the philosophers. You will be relieved to hear her discredit the great minds, shooting down their pronouncements as she reaches her own conclusions. Just remember this and you will be rewarded, I am sure.

Gum, it is good to know that the page numbers vary in different editions of the book. Does it help to have the titles of the starting chapters in the heading? Do you think we ought to put in the title of the start AND the ending chapters - or do you think what is there is enough?
Thanks for noting this!

Quote

Main Entry: an·ti·pode
Pronunciation: \ˈan-tə-ˌpōd\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural an·tip·o·des \an-ˈti-pə-ˌdēz\
Etymology: Middle English antipodes, plural, persons dwelling at opposite points on the globe, from Latin, from Greek, from plural of antipod-, antipous with feet opposite, from anti- + pod-, pous foot — more at foot
Date: 1549
1 : the parts of the earth diametrically opposite —usually used in plural —often used of Australia and New Zealand as contrasted to the western hemisphere
2 : the exact opposite or contrary
— an·tip·o·de·an \(ˌ)an-ˌti-pə-ˈdē-ən\ adjective or noun

Steph · « **Reply #86 on:** March 28, 2009, 10:29:02 AM »

True Da is from, but so is Van and Von and a lot of other beginnings to surnames. As a genealogist, you must realize that last names are a relatively recent developement. Many last names indicate what someone did way back when.. Miller,Bush,Forest,Sawyer..
I read the first part and now I am beginning to wonder if I want to read the book. Sigh.. Oh well, I will give it my best try.

JoanP · « **Reply #87 on:** March 28, 2009, 10:47:15 AM »

Quote

I will give it my best try. Steph

Your best try - no author could ask for more! I'm sure you will find much to like, Steph. It is a challenge, yes, but lots of rewards along the way. I have to add here, that though you are not ugly, fat and stooped, I think you are very much like Renée - a voracious reader and a freethinker. I do hope you stay with it!

ALF43 · « **Reply #88 on:** March 28, 2009, 12:34:34 PM »

I have a slave driver in another discussion

BUT I have my copy and have read to page 100 thus far. I like it! I like it. I am happy to consider what you have written above here Joan :

Quote

Please, don't forget - our concierge is self-taught, not confined at all by educational viewpoints of the philosophers. You will be relieved to hear her discredit the great minds, shooting down their pronouncements as she reaches her own conclusions.

I was reading along , wading throug the philosophy saying "yeah, yeah" and neer thought about what you said. You are right she discredits some of the greatest. I love it. This should lend to a wonderful discussion. There is no bettr way to begin Philosophy 101 than thru the eyes of a disgruntled philosopher.

Eloise · « **Reply #89 on:** March 28, 2009, 04:08:23 PM »

Steph, we all start this way with this book, sort of a bit, shall we say blah, but this time I had to continue because there were so many unanswered questions about what went on in this lady's (concierge) mind and of course I was curious about what kind of people lived in those posh 'hôtels particuliers' and I wasn't sorry I continued because it's afterwards that you can't put it down.

Alf, Philosophy 101 than thru the eyes of a disgruntled philosopher. yes mam. Lots goes on that no one would suspect in that setting.

I talked about the book to my soon-to-be 18 yr old grand daughter. It would be right down her ally.

Only 4 days to go.

straudetwo · « **Reply #90 on:** March 28, 2009, 06:02:54 PM »

Éloïse and JoanP, perhaps we should not forget that part of this book seems to be a deliberate send-up - and not only of class.

Furthermore, not all philosophical references - with the possible exception of phenomenology - require separate individual research, for there would hardly be time, but at least one literary reference turns out to be very important indeed.

Gumtree · « **Reply #91 on:** March 29, 2009, 12:23:53 AM »

JoanP I can't see that it would be necessary to change the heading because of differing pagination - the Section Headings are surely sufficient....

For some reason you caught my funny bone with the definition of antipodes

In the past I have often come across the word in all sorts of books and always in relation to Australia and New Zealand -and naturally it was often coupled with the phrase 'the ends of the earth' . When I was a child antipodes was used frequently enough in common parlance and printed matter but that frequency is not the case today. Amazing that we (the antipodeans) don't use the word to signify UK or USA... or Europe either. I guess the reason for that is that for so long our pioneer settlers regarded the UK particularly and also Europe as 'home' and certainly not as 'the ends of the earth' so using the word in relation to the 'old world' had the wrong connotations for them. I think this is true for recent immigrants too - but fourth generation Aussies like yours truly regard the antipodes as 'home'

ALF43 · « **Reply #92 on:** March 29, 2009, 09:00:18 AM »

JOanP- One time we read a book

and I can not for the life of me recall which one, but you made a French dictionary link for us to refer to when needed. Do you remember that? I hate to take time out of your discussion trying to figure ask continually what a word means.

Steph · « **Reply #93 on:** March 29, 2009, 09:37:47 AM »

Hopefully by April 1, our pc will be fixed and I will not be on the laptop. It is much easier to read the messages on the big screen. I have the book upstairs next to the computer, but may try to keep reading a bit more. Thus far, I am not overfond of the concierge..

Eloise · « **Reply #94 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:12:55 AM »

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

Alf, these days for the translation I am doing, I like this translation site. You can put a string of words, or just one word. Mind you they are not 100% accurate for a word in a certain context that could mean something different.

straudetwo · « **Reply #95 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:47:05 AM »

Alf,
A year or two ago we discussed Stendhal's The Red and the Black = Le Rouge et le Noir[/b].
Could this be the one you thought of?

JoanP · « **Reply #96 on:** March 29, 2009, 12:09:27 PM »

Thanks for the link, Eloise. I'm unable to get it to work, however. Will you test it before we put it in the heading?

It's not the French that's got me thumbing my dictionary - it's the English vocabulary! I wonder antipodeans are experiencing the same?
Here's another word - from the book jacket - our concierge is an "autodidact" - where did this word come from? Are you familiar with the word - the mot du jour?

Steph, I'm smiling at your comment about not liking the concierge - right after I got finished saying that she reminded me of you!

I am aware that many of you have started to read the book...and are trying to keep mum until Wednesday when we officially begin. I'd like to know what you think of the idea of getting up a page of discussion questions and linking it to the dates when they will be discussed. They wouldn't be visible unless you clicked the link. That way, you could keep them in mind while reading the pages and wouldn't have to go back when the discussion starts. What do you think?IF we do that - you'd have to promise not to start discussing the book, or the chapters until we all do on the stated dates. My question - would you, could you do that?
We've never done this before - supplied the topics for discussion before the discussion begins - BUT I'm thinking this might be helpful when discussing this book.

straudetwo · « **Reply #97 on:** March 29, 2009, 02:47:37 PM »

JoanP
If I may, it might be useful to prepare our own glossary. :)It would certainly save time IMHO.
There's a 'stunner' on the first page of the Preamble that sent me to the dictionary.

"autodidact(n.)" is derived from the Greek. The Montessori Method, for example, is considered 'autodidactic(al)" (adj.)

Eloise · « **Reply #98 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:12:26 PM »

JoanP, I can open the link from my computer.

I think the best way to access it is to Google the word "Translation" and the first link is babelfish.yahoo.com

JoanP · « **Reply #99 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:23:55 PM »

El, I can click the link you provided - it opens, I click on French - English, type in a word, enter it and nothing happens. I just tried it again with the same result.
Maybe we'd better take this to the workroom. I think we can find another site if this isn't resoled.

ALF43 · « **Reply #100 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:31:56 PM »

It works for me Eloise and Joan. I just typed in a French word, clicked translation to english and there it was. Thank you Eloise.

Traude- you are correct! You win the award. It was Le Rouge et le Noir that Joan provided the French dictionary for. Or was it Maryal? I don't remember, honestly.

Quote

We've never done this before - supplied the topics for discussion before the discussion begins - BUT I'm thinking this might be helpful when discussing this book.

Joan, i love that idea. We could talk about a thousand things without directly relating to the novel itself. I think it lends for a more interesting read when you first read the questions prior to the story. It makes one take pause with a grand epiphany of "AHA!! I think I understand the question now."

Eloise · « **Reply #101 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:34:41 PM »

When you are in babelfish.com you find the languages French - English and when that's up, type your word - or copyh the word - in the message box and click on the word "translate". A new page opens up with two boxes, Top box is the English word bottom box the French word you wanted translated.

Once I put in a string of words, it worked beautifully. Another time it didn't work at all because I guess the robot

doing this didn't understand.

JoanP · « **Reply #102 on:** March 29, 2009, 04:00:31 PM »

Well, there's a vote of one to put out the questions for the first discussion...Andy, I'm going to do it now - put them up in the chart right next to the dates, so that you can only see the questions if you cliick the link. Everyone must promise not to start discussing the book until April 1 though - concerned for those who haven't begun the book. We'll be closing this pre-discussion site and opening a new one on the first...April Fool's Day, isn't it?

Eloise, the link now works

I've put it in the heading...

Eloise · « **Reply #103 on:** March 29, 2009, 05:01:46 PM »

What a weekend this is. I had my 4 daughters and a 3 grown grands with one of their friend and my gg daughter last night for dinner, some of them stayed overnight and now I'am going out to dinner. Tomorrow I will be home and will be able to concentrate on Hedgehog more.

I think you have a great idea here Joan about the quesitons. Thank you for putting up the translation link.

Gumtree · « **Reply #104 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:00:20 PM »

JoanP : I think it's a good idea to put up the questions at this stage - only a couple of days to go....this antipodean had no trouble with autodidact assigning it the meaning of self-educated -but now you've raised it I'll have to check it out in the Dictionary - there are other words in Hedgehog which gave me pause to consider.

Laura · « **Reply #105 on:** March 30, 2009, 06:51:39 AM »

Good idea to put the questions in the heading ahead of time, but under a link. People can read and ponder their thoughts on the questions, and then begin the next section of reading without the future reading tainting their thoughts on the prior section.

Hope that makes sense!

ALF43 · « **Reply #106 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:02:03 AM »

Just as a side here!

My dad used to have "a word a day" for me when I came downstairs in the morning. He made me first guess at the meaning by dissecting the word's prefix or suffix, etc. before I was allowed to look it up in the dictionary.

One morning he was not at home and he left a sentence that went something like this.

H.Charles Travis (my dad's name) is an "autodidact!"
Isn't that something - and here I have the word staring me in the face 50 yrs. later.

Eloise · « **Reply #107 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:35:51 AM »

When I read that word "Autodidact" it immediately made me think of my mother, she mentioned it when talking about herself Alf. Our French newspapers often quote it.

The link "translation" in the heading doesn't work for me right now and I was wondering how it worked for you all. It takes me to a totally different site.

ALF43 · « **Reply #108 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:02:01 AM »

Eloise- I don't think it is unusual for people of our parent's generation to become "autodidacts" do you? The emphasis on schooling was much different then than it is today.
My dad was an avid reader and truly enjoyed just thumbing thru reference books. In those day I suppose if one wished to become knowledgable they had to teach themselves.

MarjV · « **Reply #109 on:** March 30, 2009, 12:09:17 PM »

I'm so curious to get the book and follow your discussion along. On the lib waiting list.

www.thefreedictionary.com is a good link to put on your desktop or at the top of your favorites for word definitions that aren't of another language.

Eloise · « **Reply #110 on:** March 30, 2009, 01:33:15 PM »

Welcome, welcome MarjV. I hope you can get the book soon to join in our discussion. We enjoy having you joining us.

Eloise · « **Reply #111 on:** March 30, 2009, 08:45:10 PM »

The translation link works well, try it, you will see. Thanks JoanP for fixing it, I forgot to mention it after it was fixed.

If a translation doesn't seem to fit the text, just ask. I heard today about how the web translates. It looks for words or a string on words anywhere on the world wide web and copies it verbatim regardless of the context and it doesn't always fit the content well, but it gives you a good idea.

EvelynMC · « **Reply #112 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:04:54 PM »

JoanP: I printed out the questions and will have them as I re-read the pages for April 1. I think it is a good idea to have the q's ahead of time, as we read.

I have enjoyed this book, so far. I agree the concierge does come across as an old curmudgeon, but my interest is aroused. I definitely am hooked and wonder where this story is going. This is going to be enjoyable.

Evelyn

JoanP · « **Reply #113 on:** March 31, 2009, 08:28:24 AM »

Good morning, MarjV - Welcome to our group, to Paris, home of elegance - and hedgehogs! Thanks for providing a link to an ENGLISH dictionary. I was just telling Eloise that we will be needing an ENGLISH-ENLISH dictionary more than FRENCH-ENGLISH!

Our author has quite an extensive vocabulary on her, doesn't she? I love the challenge.

Andy, that's a sweet memory of your father challenging you with a word-a-day. And with "autodidact" too. I suppose there are different levels of "autodidacting" - is it a verb too, do you think? I mean, our concierge may have taught herself from a young child, or maybe she didn't get to high school - or beyond. To me, that will be interesting to learn. When we get to the new discussion, we will have to have a growing "glossary" as Traudee has suggested.

Hopefully your library hold list will move quickly, Marj. Have you heard anything, Jackie? Is there any way to know where you stand on the wait list? I do hope you both stay with us until your names come up.

Evelyn, I'm glad you find the book engaging and the questions useful. You don't have to limit yourself to them, however. Your own observations are what make these conversations hum!

mrssherlock · « **Reply #114 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:54:16 AM »

My interest has been piqued, I couldn't leave now even though the book isn't here yet. There are five holds on five copies, several waiting on hold shelves, and no indication of where I am on the list. Soon.

kidsal · « **Reply #115 on:** March 31, 2009, 12:35:59 PM »

I ordered a used book through Amazon but never received it - so am waiting for my second request.

Eloise · « **Reply #116 on:** March 31, 2009, 01:27:44 PM »

Jacquie and Kidsal, this book is so cheap, it's only $12. here at Chapters. Amazon said that the US gets next day delivery, I don't know if it's for new books or for used ones. I buy used books too at Amazon who emailed me to say it takes about 10 to 15 days to arrive in Canada.

JoanP · « **Reply #117 on:** March 31, 2009, 06:08:25 PM »

Kidsal, we're rooting for you. Hopefully the book will arrive in the next few days. Don't go away, we need our Antipodeans' viewpoints!

At some time this evening, Pat will come tiptoeing in here to shut down this prediscussion to open the new - and we can actually talk about the book. She might bump into you, Gum!

BooksAdmin · « **Reply #118 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:47:44 PM »

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Author Topic: Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Prediscussion (Read 34274 times)