Author Topic: Tempest, The ~ William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online  (Read 64081 times)

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #240 on: October 24, 2012, 08:18:07 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Please join us here all through October....


  October Book Club Online
The Tempest, Shakespeare's last play, was written in 1611 in the final period of his career.   The play is not really a comedy, but  combines elements of tragedy with comedy, a tragicomedy.

   Shakespeare set the play on an unnamed island in an unidentified age. In it, he  portrays an aging magician, Prospero,  who has been living in exile with his young daughter on a remote island for the past twelve years.

Over the course of a single day, Prospero uses his magic to whip up a tempest to shipwreck the men responsible for his banishment. He then proceeds to dazzle and dismay the survivors (and the audience) with his art as he orchestrates his triumphant return home where he plans to retire in peace.

For a lot of audiences and literary scholars, Prospero seems like a stand-in in for Shakespeare, who spent a lifetime dazzling audiences before retiring in 1611, shortly after The Tempest was completed. Its epilogue seems to be a final and fond farewell to the stage.

When Prospero (after giving up the art of magic he's spent a lifetime perfecting) appears alone before the audience he confesses, "Now my charms are all o'erthrown, / And what strength I have's mine own," we can't help but wonder of Shakespeare is speaking through this character here.
From multiple sources, including Shakespearean Criticism, Gale Cengage

Discussion Schedule
Act V October 26 ~ end
    Some Topics to Consider
Act V
1. What appeal does Ariel make to Prospero?  Is Prospero's response what you would have expected?  Would you have expected such an appeal from Ariel?

2. How believable is it that someone possessing such power as Prospero would voluntarily release it?   Can you think of any real life examples?

3. Do you think Prospero should have told Alonso of Sebastian and Antonio's traitorous intentions?   Pro or con, what is your reasoning?

4.  What did you think of Caliban's reaction when fetched before Prospero this last time? Do you think this indicates any change in attitude or understanding?

 
   

Relevant links:  
The Tempest (Electronic Version) , BookTV: Hobson Woodard: A Brave Vessel ,
Translation of W. Strachey's long letter describing the shipwreck to the Excellent Woman,
Listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams' "Full Fathom Five"
Memorable Quotes from The Tempest - a list in Progress

 
DLs: Babi ,    JoanK , Barb,   MarcieJoanP   



Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #241 on: October 24, 2012, 09:40:50 AM »
 Now that you speak of it, BARB, I think I would agree with that. The hunt for profit has
probably motivated more exploration and colonization than any other incentive. The hunt for
an easier passage to India and Asia was driven by the desire for an easier access to the silks,
spices, and gems of the Eastern trade.

 The old 'hysterical' label for women still surfaces, eh, JUDE. I was aware that sociopath
and psychopath are not the same thing, but I was surprised that so little information was
available on the origins and possible treatments for sociopathy. I was surprised by your
information that most criminals could fall into the 'psychopath' designation. I would have
thought that 'sociopath' would better describe the criminal personality. We simply don't know
enough about this problem, IMO.   I have not found a recent study on this subject  (and decided to ignore those that made reference to an 'alien' origin. ;) )

  I had no idea the 'nature v. nurture' argument went back so far, JOANP. Interesting. I think
we are a combination of the two, but I also think nurture can alter the inherited nature to a
considerable degree.

 With that closing, JOANP, I would have to think Shakespeare intended this to be his final,
farewell play.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #242 on: October 24, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »
Such interesting posts this morning.

I love the painting. it captures the misty feel that I get from S's magic.

" white cold virgin snow" Is he saying that Miranda is a virgin, or that he is? It sounds like him.

And all the alliterations! I had forgotten my own advice to read the scene aloud.

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #243 on: October 24, 2012, 03:39:12 PM »
"We are the stuff that dreams are made of."

This is the quote that stays nin my mind. Is it true? For me, it links Shakespeare with the more modern playwrights who question the nature of reality.

What do you all think?

Jonathan

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #244 on: October 24, 2012, 04:46:43 PM »
What do I think? It was Prospero's thought, not mine. Just what was his dream? What was his disappointment? That his attempt at colonization failed? The natives were not to his liking? This is worth pursuing.

What a wonderful question, JoanP. Was Shakespeare pleased with the play he had written? With his life's work? Is he asking himself that question? What a great question to ask Prof. Garber tonight, after her talk. If I get a chance to ask her.

How important was it for Prospero to find a husband for his daughter, Miranda? In what way is she part of the dream?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #245 on: October 24, 2012, 06:15:21 PM »
JoanP your quote that Jonathan also refereed to earlier in the discussion...

"Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
 As I foretold you, were all spirits and
 Are melted into air, into thin air:
 And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
 The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
 The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
 Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
 And, like this insubstantial pageant faded..."

I am reading this bit as his acknowledging in awe the wonderful, out of imagination, another life made from his and our dreams that fade when the curtain so to speaks comes down - when the audience spills out into the street, as a pageant ends and his part in carrying on a dream is over - from then on it is a dream that is added to or changed by each in the audience - and by the standard of creating and building the necessities for life the pageant is the cherry on top but not the base of life's needs and so insubstantial.

As to Caliban - I wonder if there is another aspect to him we are missing - we know that Strachey's account of life on Bermuda and Jamestown are woven into this story but, we also know, that other authors have input like Ovid. We know this was only 5 or 6 years after the Gunpowder incident so the war between the old religion and the new was all around. What makes me wonder is really a question, are we laying onto this story our twenty-first century morality -

In Jamestown it was only seven years after The Tempest was performed, in 1619 that the first boat load of 19 slaves were sold in Jamestown with the number of slaves tripling and quadrupling for years shipped in by both the Dutch and the English.

And then, the American Indian was happily relegated to the bottom of the heap even up through the twentieth century. I remember a headstone maker that we passed his display everytime we went to town for groceries. Included in his a display was a large group statue of Custer being scalped with several Indian braves with raised hatchets in the work. When I finally asked my mother she went on and on about what a hero Custer was and how awful the Indians were etc. etc. as you can only imagine. No love lost or even respect going in that direction, however, she was not alone in her assessment.

And so, I am having a difficult time imagining that Shakespeare saw in Jamestown the Indian as a noble savage that because of looks and maybe, even smell given how Caliban is described, the subhuman or as Montaigne's cannibal is a mistreated travesty to justice. I think if we use Montaigne as our guide he is saying, that Caliban is a part of nature and that is like saying, nature as a guide to settling Jamestown has in common the - the baseless fabric of this vision,

...that this vision of a perfect world based in nature that can only produce low hanging fruit and therefore, everyone and everything will be gentle and kind to each other, with little to no labor to exist or to get along is really like the stage dream baseless fabric that fades as he describes...
 The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
 The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
 Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
 And, like this insubstantial pageant faded..


I think Shakespeare is poking holes into the propaganda of the Virginia Company and he may even see wisdom in Strachey's comments that Spain was able to subject the Indian to do the labor required.

I think today we can see any number of groups who were 'less-than' including women, as the embodiment of Caliban so he is like so many of Shakespeare's characters a universal character for the ages.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #246 on: October 25, 2012, 09:11:33 AM »
Jonathan, I can't wait to here about Prof. Garber's talk!

I see Shakespeare as being not so satisfied with The Tempest...for a number of reasons.  One  was the demand (is that too strong a word?) to insert the masque into his play - in order to please the king, who was accustomed to such entertainment.  
I think the masque worked here...it moved the plot along -  without Venus in attendance,  tempting the lovers (Miranda and Ferdinand) to break their vow of chastity to Prospero, the "love knot" is intact and the wedding will take place.
But, I've been reading of the elaborate setting for the masques which Shakespeare had to incorporate into Act IV - such as the contraptions, the pulleys  that lowered Ariel onto the stage from on high - and required to make the Nymphs fly.  It pleased the king - I guess that was what was important.  But did it please Shakespeare?
There were other indications that he did not feel this was one of his best plays...


JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #247 on: October 25, 2012, 09:12:20 AM »
Quote
"What makes me wonder is really a question, are we laying onto this story our twenty-first century morality"  Barbara -

Barbara...I wonder about that too.  I keep forgetting that Shakespeare is a man of his time - just a man of his time.  He really doesn't possess the ability to see things as those who followed, those who have lived through more history and scientific development.  Important to remember.


Quote
"We know that Strachey's account of life on Bermuda and Jamestown are woven into this story"  Barbara


 Strachey's account continues to influence, right up to the last acts.  (As does Ovid's Metamorphosis.)  I'm still puzzled by the "glistening garments,"  which get Stephano and Trinculo's attention.  At first I thought maybe they were wet garments, as they follow right after the description of the fens. the ditches and the muddy pools - Trinculo saying he smells of horse piss after coming out of them.  But why would they put on wet clothing.  These clothes are something else.  Notice that Caliban won't put them on - he suspects they are something else.
Close parallel with Strachey's account in describing this scene in Tempest.  Shakespeare uses the exact words Strachey did in describing the "fens, marshes, ditches and muddy pools.  Strachey had also referred with disapproval and sarcasm,  to the two suits of English apparel requested by the last of the mutineers determined to remain behind.  
How did you see the glistening clothes which attracted Trinculo and Stephano's attention as they set out to murder Prospero?

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #248 on: October 25, 2012, 09:27:23 AM »
 Perhaps I am over simplifying, but I would think Prospero's dream...and intent...is to win
back his rightful place for himself and his daughter.  Especially his daughter. What kind of
life could she have on this isolated island?  No friends, no prospective family. What would
happen to her after Prospero died? 

  The 'glistening garments'  could be a reference to the rich, sometimes be-gemmed,
apparel worn by the wealthy and powerful.  The drunken Stephano and Trinculo are
delusional at this point; they might envision most anything.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Jonathan

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #249 on: October 25, 2012, 02:42:39 PM »
I wish all of you could have been there last night to hear Marjorie Garber talk about Shakespeare's place in humanities education, a very informed, exciting talk about the huge influence that Shakespeare has achieved in our culture and thinking. I had in mind to take a lot of notes to pass along to you, but it was all too mesmerizing. It seemed no more possible than it would have been for the wedding guest to take notes while listening to the Ancient Mariner.

I got a chance to talk with Prof. Garber for a few minutes, to tell her that her book, SHAKESPEARE AFTER ALL, was the first to be mentioned in our discussion (she wished us well) and what a splendid book it is. That we were nearing the end of the play and were wondering about the Prospero-as-Shakespeare theme. Specifically, what might have been Shakespeare's own feelings about the play. Was he happy with it? Her short answer was, We just don't know. And then pointed out that Shakespeare neglected to leave behind anything (letters, journals, memos) that could have enlightened us. She, I got the impression, is disinclined to find The Tempest autobiographical. But, she said, the play was a success. He must have been happy with it.

I could have talked for an hour with her, but there were many others, eager with their questions.

But I just had to know. Garber is pictured on the jacket of her book, flanked by two beautiful dogs. What are their names I asked, thinking of Shakespeare as a source.

Along with a wonderful smile, I got her answer: Wagner and Nietzsche.

JudeS

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #250 on: October 25, 2012, 06:25:13 PM »
Jonathan
Oh dear, I don't wamt to rain on your parade but I must.
This has nothing to do with Shakespeare only with the side issue of  Garber's dogs.
Wagner is a known anti-semite and Nietzshe's work was used by both Hitler and Mussolini's fascist organizations.
They were encouraged in this through the efforts of Nietzsche's sister who was married to a RABID anti semite.

Though Nietzsche himself can be viewed from many angles the Fascist's used him to justify was, aggression, domination for the sake of nationalistic and racial self gratification.

So everything about the Lady Professor became secondary to the question of why choose antisemitic heroes as names for your dogs?
I will never know the answer unless I do some serious research. But I won't do that.  It sure made me wonder though.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #251 on: October 25, 2012, 06:45:49 PM »
Jude yes, the ambiguities of life - there are many who have added much to our lives who also have a dark side. A true struggle...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #252 on: October 25, 2012, 08:55:04 PM »
Here's something on the light side.  Tuesday the Metropolitan Opera performed a new opera, The Tempest, by Thomas Adés (never heard of him) who also conducted.  Prospero imagines much of the action as being part of a production at La Scala, which is in his native Milan.  Here's a slide show.  Comments about each scene are to the right.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2012/10/24/arts/music/20121025-tempest.html

The one in purple swinging from the chandelier is Ariel.  Since she also has to sing a lot at the very upper end of her range, I bet it's a hard role to cast.  The production was by the same man, Robert LePage, who did the recent Ring cycle, evidently with the same mix of spectacularly good and not so good--spectacular storm, stupid handling of Prospero as opera manager, etc.

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #253 on: October 25, 2012, 09:54:55 PM »
" Shakespeare is a man of his time - just a man of his time. "

Yes, and he had no personal experience of Indians (unless he saw one who was brought back to exhibit).

What a great talk that must have been, Jonathan. i'll bet you wish you hadn't asked about the dogs' names.

And the staging of that opera. Wow! I wonder who the woman with the golden wings was. And all the other women (maybe he added women's parts to have a full chorus?)

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #254 on: October 25, 2012, 10:23:55 PM »
We are reaching the end of our discussion of Act IV. Tomorrow (Friday), we will wind up any last thought on IV, and start Act V.

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #255 on: October 26, 2012, 07:53:32 AM »
I wonder who the woman with the golden wings was.
That was Ariel again.  I wonder if she had to sing while she was hanging in the air like that?

I liked Caliban crawling out of the prompter's box.

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #256 on: October 26, 2012, 08:24:22 AM »
Thanks so much for your report, Jonathan.  I'll be honest - I didn't think Professor Garber would give her own reaction, her own opinion, but rather what scholars have found over the years.  Each will see something a bit different, through our own  individual lens.  I just can't agree that there are not autobiographical elements in The Tempest.  Too many of them - too obvious.
I guess he'd have been happy that the play was a success - but do sense something of unhappiness in the constaints put on him.
I'd like to hear a bit more of her talk., as the spell wears off and you recover some of your memory.

PatH - delightful!  You know, Shakespeare's masque had Ariel hanging from a contraption of pulleys from on high.  He had to expend some time on this part of the production - simply to please the king.   Can't quite picture that in the Globe though.
Hanging and trying to sound merry while singing As The Bee Sucks...

 
Quote
After summer merrily:
Merrily, merrily, shall I live now
Under the blossom that hangs on the bough.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyba1Gl52t4

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #257 on: October 26, 2012, 09:09:44 AM »
  I would so like to hear those songs set to music.  I wonder if they would be anything like what I imagine.  Surely the
livelier ones would have quickly appeared in the London pubs and popular with the street entertainers.

 So, we're ready to begin with Act V.  I was pleasantly surprised to see another side of Ariel.  He is concerned with the
fate of others, not just his own.  Prospero's response seemed a bit surprising, considering all the trouble he's taken to
punish those who stole his place in the world. What do you think?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Jonathan

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #258 on: October 26, 2012, 02:01:34 PM »
Jude, for whatever reason, I'm not permitted to reply in The Tempest discussion. You do make a good point. It could be seen as very unfair to the dogs. Animals have their rights too. But, as the professor pointed out, very much in Shakespeare is wide-open to interpretation. And it's a good question if he himself is concealed or revealed in his plays.

Jonathan

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #259 on: October 26, 2012, 02:17:56 PM »
The professor put me onto a very curious book, which illustrates in a marvellous way how influential Shakespeare has become. There is an answer in his plays to almost everything in life. The book is:

SHAKESPEARE IN CHARGE:THE BARD'S GUIDE TO LEADING AND SUCCEEDING ON THE BUSINESS STAGE

Instead of chapter headings we get Acts, and a business concern.

Act I. On Leadership. Read or see HENRY V

Act II. Confronting Change. Read or see The Taming of the Shrew

Act III.  Making Your Play in Business. Read or see Julius Caesar

Act IV Risk Management. Read or see The Merchant of Venice

Act V. Crisis Management. Macbeth

And the curtain comes down.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #260 on: October 26, 2012, 06:21:02 PM »
OK Jonathan - whatever happened and we may never know The Tempest is back open - if you want to copy your two posts that you left here into The Tempest discussion that would be great - if you are not online by tomorrow I will check with JoanP and arrange to move them over.

EDIT: Jonathan's two posts (above)  have been moved into this discussion from the Library. - marcie
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #261 on: October 26, 2012, 07:52:39 PM »
Everyone sees only the deformed monster in Caliban. Why is that? He  was self-sufficient, it seems, until Prospero came along. Then, like now with Trinculo and Stephano, he was willing to share the resources of the island. He was eager to learn what Prospero and Miranda could teach him. He was attuned to all the enchantments of the island. He was more sinned against than sinner himself. And yet he seems unworthy of sympathy. His island means just as much to him as the dukedom of Milan means to Prospero.

I wonder if the prejudice against him comes from being the son of a witch. We can have no idea of the threat seen in witches in medieval and even Elizabethan times. Witchcraft Acts were still in force. Witches were hanged in public. Witchery was a force to be reckoned with. What a strange thing. Was it an early, active form of militant feminism? Women determined to play a role in worldly affairs.

I hope there is a happy ending in here for Caliban.

This touches on something that is a sore point for me.  Caliban is despicable partly because he is ugly.  Beauty is assumed to be character.  Ferdinand falls in love with Miranda just from seeing her; she could be an awful shrew for all he knows.  Miranda falls for him for the same reason, though since she hasn't seen another man except her father since she was small, she has some excuse.

What is Caliban really like aside from his ugliness?  He is crude, but he hasn't been treated well by Prospero.  He has a poetic appreciation of his island and its resources:

Act 2 scene 2

I'll show thee the best springs.  I'll pluck thee berries.
I'll fish for thee and get thee wood enough....

I prithee, let me bring thee where crabs grow,
And I, with my long nails will dig thee pignuts,
Show thee a jay's nest, and instruct thee how
To snare the nimble marmoset.  I'll bring thee
To clustering filberts, and sometimes I'll get thee
Young scamels from the rock.  Wilt thou go with me?


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #262 on: October 27, 2012, 01:41:31 AM »
Prospero must still be in action closing and then re-opening our discussion  ;) and to who ever played Ariel  :-*

Talk about serendipity or maybe the perfect storm - we are talking about Caliban and I am reading my pile of books evolved in my search about Germany - this one is The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples by Herwig Wolfram - translated by Thomas Dunlap - Does this not sound like Shakespeare lifted Caliban from the common description of the Germania Barbarians.

In 53 BC two years after the Roman legions first crossed the Rhine, Caesar advances into Germania for the second time. He decides to add to his account of the campaign the significant differences between the two nations. His purpose is to hold a critical mirror to his own civilization.

I am going to para phrase - Caesar starts by defining the Barbarians with the conventional view that they were slaves to nature and since they lacked the second - human - nature they were closer to animals than human beings. They did not have a history but rather, they were part of the flow of natural history. Wolfram points out this attitude was still evident in the nineteenth century. She points to the Department of pre history in Vienna was NOT affiliated with the Museum of Art History but rather the Museum of Natural History where it remains today.

Barbarians are seen as irrational, "two legged animals." If a storm approached during battle they were terror struck fearful the heavens would collapse upon them. They would flee in panic giving up their advantage on the battle field. They had a terrible death wish including the women who fought beside the men. The belief was that barbarians were possessed by evil spirits that drove them to commit the most horrible acts.

Barbarians were incapable of living according to written laws. Their customs were alien, unpredictable, and dangerous. They had an immense appetite for gold and an unquenchable thirst. They kissed one another in a kiss of brotherhood as a customary greeting, knew no loyalty to an outsider. The civilized world thought barbarians were not fully human, where as barbarians regarded their own communities as "the world of human beings." Any one leaving was beyond the pale.

To Romans or Greeks the Barbarian's language did not sound like any speech of humans, more like stammering and noise. Their songs were atrocious, they assaulted the meter of classical poetry, they were tall and danced by yelling and stomping right inside houses.

A given was they were very good looking, tall with blond hair however, hairy, filthy, abysmal personal hygiene. They greased their hair with rancid butter, their furs they did not take off even in the sunny south and were equally aromatic. Only the Huns were ugly and consider the sons of evil spirits where as, Germania Barbarians were the sons of Gothic witches expelled from the tribe - and on cold long northern winter nights they procreated in huge numbers. They returned to fight with the seasons, swarming from the swamps and forests of Germania with about one hundred thousand people in a tribe.

In the "sacred spring" the ver sacrum the young men were sent out in search of land.  Their economy was poor and inefficient. Fighting, they were less capable of settlement skills - a good harvest just about got them through a winter with no surplus, no granaries, they ate a monotonous diet and rank determined additional booty as well as, the amount of food allotted. Any extra tribute to a noble from underlings was used to purchase gold and hung around the neck of wife or horse - the amount of gold determined rank.

This definition subtlety continue today as the author uses Germany as her example with the common description of West Germans over East Germans - linguistically there is high German and low German. We know (Wolfram does not suggest) that in Europe many a Frenchmen considers themselves refined and the German to be crude.

If we can recognize these descriptions that we prefer not to publicly acknowledge but, are basic to our assessment of some groups here in the twenty-first century than, it is easy to see just how simple a task it was for Shakespeare to create a Caliban in the early seventeenth century using the common description for a Barbarian as his guide.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #263 on: October 27, 2012, 07:29:27 AM »
 
Quote
 Beauty is assumed to be character.  

Path - Your observation reminded me of another instance in the play where beauty=character.  I don't remember a discussion here about Shakespeare's observation in Act I Scene 2 - he's talking about Ferdinand's fascination with Miranda at first sight of her.

"A beautiful face and body reflect the beauty of the spirit within."

I remember questioning that as I read it, wondering if Shakespeare really believed this, if this reflected the thinking of his time.  What did you think when you read of their love at first sight?


JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #264 on: October 27, 2012, 07:57:23 AM »
How ugly was Caliban really?  We're told that he was "a freckled whelp, not honored with a human shape". His mother, "a foul witch."  Maybe he really was ugly to look at, not simply an unshaven "barbarian".  But didn't Prospero  treat him well when he first  came to the island?
Wasn't  that what broke Prospero's heart?  After he tutored him - taught him hs language, didn't Caliban turn on him by assaulting what was most dear to him?  I thought the irony of that situation was that Caliban was able to express in words that Prospero could understand, his intention to people the island with little Calibans...

I wonder if Shakespeare was able to appreciate what he was writing? :D
Prospero is the visitor - yet he feels he must teach the native his ways. Once he accomplishes this, the native is punished for desiring the stranded visitor's daughter, the only woman on the island.  Yet, when Ferdinand arrives, the stranded visitor is only too happy to give her away because...
What conclusions did Shakespeare's audience reach?

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #265 on: October 27, 2012, 09:21:14 AM »
Since Caliban was "not honored with a human shape", we must assume there was some
deformity there. Since  he was supposed to be the son of a witch and an evil god,
'ugly' would almost be a requirement, wouldn't it?  Especially to an audience that
apparently associated beauty with character, as PatH points out.

  It becomes apparent, as we see Prospero's plans develop, that he knew about the ship
and it's passengers and immediately seized on this opportunity to restore his fortunes.
Now it is all coming together,  and  judgment awaits the guilty.
   Then, the suprising appeal by Ariel for mercy.  I had not thought he cared at all what
happened to these strangers; his goal was his own freedom.  Now he is revealing new
depths of character.     
  Prospero: "The rarer action is in virtue than in vengeance."   I'd have to agree with that.  Still, Prospero's last words on the subject to Sebastan & Anthony were, "At this time, I will tell no tales."  I see that as a warning to the pair that this could change and they should be very good boys  in future.

  Is all this making any change in your perception of these two characters?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #266 on: October 27, 2012, 01:35:20 PM »
hmm I think we have to think this through - most of us today are horrified over how we treated the native population - sending children off to so called boarding schools - stripping them of all their Indian ways and dress - punishing them if they reverted to their native language and put out that when they returned to the reservation they did not live like us or continue to read our kind of books or change the tribal legal and political system to match ours or most outrageous they did not use the land as we thought best.

Just reminds me of what Prospero did with Caliban - he is annoyed with Caliban for not becoming more like those Prospero and Miranda represent.

I also remember how we described both Indian men and Black men until the last about 40 years and so when I read the description for Caliban I simply put on my 1950s and 60s mindset simultaneous with my 1990 and 2000 Ironic smirk at myself and decided it was the put down description often used to make worse the characteristics of someone on the wrong side of the divide. In other words I did not give it much never-mind and decided it was over the top seventeenth century effort to dehumanize.
Quote
I wonder if Shakespeare was able to appreciate what he was writing?
I wonder also - I wonder if it was simply a means to earning money and he was pleased when it was a well attended play. We learned he even allowed the king to influence what he wrote so the play would be more successful at the box office because of having the King's OK - I guess none of those who create enduring art have a clue that 100s of years later we would still be learning from and admiring their work.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #267 on: October 27, 2012, 05:41:33 PM »
When I finished the play I found two treasures in my book that I will share with you.
The first is a chapter on "The Tempest on the Early Stage" and the second a chapter called "Inspired by the Tempest'.

After cutting as much as possible I chose these paragraphs to share from "The Early Stage"

Shakespeare had the most successful acting troupe in London, "The King's Men". The group consisted of 15 men and 5 boys plus extras and a backstage staff consisting of a scribe and a prompter. The company performed with astonishing regularity, putting on a different play most afternoons.  The actors kept a repertory of 20 to 30 established plays in their heads and added new ones as they were written.
Audiences had a key role in determining the success of a play.  If they withheld applause on the first night , then the play was dropped and never performed again.
The Tempest had a wider range of audience since it was performed at three distinct venues: the court, the Globe and the Blackfriars.
It is useful to remember that one of the first people to see this play ofpolitics,  occupation, and rebellion, was the King himself, James I.
The Tempest required much special effects. Thunder machines (cannonballs rolled in a metal rough), a wind machine (flapping canvas on a wheel) and fireworks for thunder . Music was required for almost every scene. This required  special staging found in the Blackfriars theatre. The Tempest was not written for a large , round open air space with both standing room and seating like at the Globre.
The smaller, more compact Blackfriars charged much higher prices for its tickets and therefore had a more wealthy and a more honogeneous audience.Theis theatre came with a full orchestra. there were strings and woodwinds rather than drums and brass as in previous plays.There was also an organ which could be used for many eerie sounds.
Knowing all these things I reread Prospero's last apeech which asks the audience to set him free. Now we know what he meant!
More tomorrow.


Dana

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Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #269 on: October 28, 2012, 09:58:05 AM »

 Thanks for that information, JUDE. I found some interesting info. about the
importance of music in the theatres of that time; indeed, in all Elizabethan
entertainment. Here is a link to that article.
http://www.shakespeare-online.com/quotes/shakespearesongs.html

 DANA, can you describe for me what your link was about and how you are relating
it to 'The Tempest'?  Being deaf, a video doesn't tell me much and I think one or
two of our other participants may have difficulty with it.

 What do you think of Prospero's long listing of all that he had power to do?
Then, after all that, he says he will give it all up.

But this rough magic
I here abjure, and, when I have required
Some heavenly music, which even now I do,
To work mine end upon their senses that
This airy charm is for, I'll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I'll drown my book.


 Anyone care to try Question #2?  I'd be most interested to hear what you have to say.

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #270 on: October 28, 2012, 01:46:59 PM »
Quote
2. How believable is it that someone possessing such power as Prospero would voluntarily release it?   Can you think of any real life examples?

I think on the magic I am with Jude in that it is so off the charts that it must be assigned to the fantasy we will accept in a play. Now if the magic can be reduced to simply power and control where the use of it does not change the wind or bring tables laden with food floating into a group while a pixie like angle sings and later tuns into a scaaaaaary harpy then we can consider - but even with power and control Prospero wants it back in Milan.

Here is the US we are used to leaders giving up power and control as some do not want to run for another term and others finish up their allowable terms - We see the heads of small companies often retire with age and a few we read about who give it all up to find their inner soul while others to start a company or a work, completely different than the one that included all that power and control.

If we look at Prospero as a shadow figure for Shakespeare who held his audience with his power and control with words creating magic on stage it appears he made his wad and retired to the country where he purchased an estate and a rank that gave him another sort of power and control. No quiet life in the country with his books and dogs for him... he even held onto property in London and for a few years collaborated on a few more plays. But then he was only a man in his 40s with it sounds like the health of a man in his 60s but even at that, today, many do not retire and those who must, retire at age 65. Shakespeare seems to have in common the concept of power and control until death as the King and Queen.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #271 on: October 28, 2012, 02:15:07 PM »
Dana
Thanks a million!
So apropo.

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #272 on: October 28, 2012, 03:57:30 PM »
Prospero originally lost his power to Antonio partly because he was so busy with his books and studies that he didn't pay attention to his duties as a ruler.  Now he wants his old life back.  Does he feel he has to choose between one kind of power and another?

I would think it would be hard to give up magic, though.

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #273 on: October 28, 2012, 04:01:18 PM »
"I wonder if Shakespeare was able to appreciate what he was writing?"

I admit I was stunned when I read (here) that Shakespeare left no books. Does that mean he had none, or just that they weren't mentioned in his will? Given the rich borrowings of Shakespeare from works classic and (in his day) modern for the first time I wondered if the people who say that Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare have a point.

Jonathan

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #274 on: October 28, 2012, 04:58:57 PM »
That's just  what I've been thinking, Pat. It's a return to a more conventional power. To be the Duke of Milan again. And the magic we have witnessed, beginning with the storm, was designed to get him home. On a calm sea. Ariel will see to that.

The island turned out to be a bad dream. With Caliban turning out to be his own son. Sycorax was always there in the background. What a heavy burden of guilt Prospero is leaving behind. Giving up his magic gives him the freedom that others in the play have been dreaming of. Prospero is definitely going home sadder and wiser. Forgiving his brother only means that he will need him again. So many odd things about this character. Even the little detail that the grand Magus was not going to turn into a teller of tales. The play has left me baffled. Like the professor said: these plays can be seen as meditations on life.

And Caliban will be his own king again!

Will Miranda feel at home in her brave new world? Or does she have a lot to learn?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #275 on: October 28, 2012, 07:03:26 PM »
Quote
The play has left me baffled.
True and frankly I enjoyed The Brave Vessel far more than this play - it was not magical like like A Midsummer Night’s Dream that has magic and fairies and strange animal like humans - I kept asking as I read, so what is the point here... I am glad I read it and glad there was a group read because without y'all bringing up one issue after another it would have been a pretty dull read - even the love interest peaked little interest -

The best part for me was the description of the storm and the bit on the hillside with Trinculo, Stephano and Caliban who being the fools they rivaled the others, who with all their power seemed as much a group of fools as the butler, jester and island subhuman.

Ferdinand and Miranda seemed beside the point, so why were they even included except maybe to satisfy an audience who want to see a love interest. The ending begs the question as Pat and Jonathan suggests, what happens next.

Hmm is that it that revenge leads no where and so show a play that is short with no future except forgiveness - if Prospero's magic was supposed to make us feel as if he was filled with rage and revenge it just did not do it. Maybe we have gone past being scared out of our wits with the screams of a Harpy and so we did not get the full impact of his murderous rage.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #276 on: October 28, 2012, 08:59:33 PM »
In reference to my last post.
Perospero asks the audience to set him free. They clap. That means the play is a success and will continue to enthrall us for the next 300 or so years.
But it also means that Prospero, Shakespeare, is asking to be left free to retire and spend his last years at ease in the countryside.

The pace and pressure Shakespeare was under in his last years, running two dramatic companies and two theatres, writing the scripts and overseeing the production. He ran himself ragged and perhaps led to his demise a few years later.

I can't think of a better farewell than the one Mr. S. gave us in this play.Magic and reality braided together. New World and Old World joined in a wondrous send off for Prospero and Shakespeare. No one killed, all past sins forgiven, and young love on the horizon to bring us future generations.
This was a wonderful "feel good" play. Caliban's future, like that of the American Indians of the time, a question mark.
Shakespearre made sure to write what he knew. Since that was much more than most he is "The Bard" for all times.

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #277 on: October 29, 2012, 09:39:56 AM »
  I had not thought of it as Prospero exchanging one power for another. His plan was working,
so why not continue to have some magical power even as Duke of Milan?  I think it was
necessary, from Shakespeare's viewpoint, that Prospero renounce the highly questionable magic.
In those times, it was regarded with deep suspicion and associated with witchcraft and evil.
   
  JONATHAN, you lost me with the remark about Caliban 'turning out to be his own son'.
Would you clarify that for me, please. Caliban was the son of the Sycorax and the witch.
I think it only fair that Caliban should have his island back again, but I'd think he would
find it terribly lonely.
  Miranda will indeed have a lot to learn. Mostly on having to deal with other women!

 I haven't found it hard to accept things as Shakespeare presented them. I find it easy
to become entranced with the rhetoric, the beautiful use of language. This is fantasy; it's
best to 'go with the flow'.
 
 I never did see a 'murderous rage' in Prospero, BARB. Definitely a determination to
bring his enemies under his power, and cause them to suffer some of what he has suffered.
He plotted to get back what was his, coolly and purposefully. You do have a point that
the love interest was a bit maudlin and not too interesting, but it was a key issue for
Prospero.

Quote
I can't think of a better farewell than the one Mr. S. gave us in this play. Magic and
reality braided together. New World and Old World joined in a wondrous send off for
Prospero and Shakespeare.
   I couldn't agree more, JUDE. Those magnificent lines!  And Caliban: 

Ay, that I will;
and I'll be wise hereafter
And seek for grace. What a thrice-double ass
Was I, to take this drunkard for a god
And worship this dull fool!

 Don't you think this indicates some thoughtfulness and better understanding in Caliban?



"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #278 on: October 29, 2012, 12:07:58 PM »
Sycorax was the witch, and was female.  In Act I, Scene 2, starting with line 316, Prospero describes how she was condemned in Algiers for her misdeeds, but not killed because she was pregnant, instead being set ashore on the island.

In line 382 Prospero addresses Caliban as
"Thou poisonous slave, got by the devil himself
Upon thy wicked dam...."

If he is later discovered to be Caliban's father, it blew by me, but I've missed a lot of things the first time through.  I missed that Alonso was part of the plot to get rid of P., though it's stated (somewhat obscurely) in line 132ff of this scene.

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #279 on: October 29, 2012, 12:50:36 PM »
Quote
"I find it easy to become entranced with the rhetoric, the beautiful use of language."

Babi, this is not to argue with you...so much of this IS Shakespeare's "beautiful use of language."  BUT, I am going to confess some hesitation, uneasieness,  as I find so much of what I thought was Shakespeare's own to have been taken directly, sometimes word for word from other sources - without attribution to his sources.  He seems to have done the same thing with William Strachey's account - using his very words...

Quote
"When it came to stories of the supernatural based on classical mythology Shakespeare went back to a book he would have studied at school, Ovid’s Metamorphoses. He knew the book both in the original Latin, and in an English translation. The passage in which he refers most directly to Ovid is Prospero’s renunciation of magic in The Tempest."
 

It's very possible that Shakespeare's audience was as familiar with Ovid as he was - and that there was no question that he was "QUOTING"  Ovid  - but what about later audiences - you and I, who read this lines and attribute them directly to Shakespeare?  Consider these lines from the Tempest - and Ovid's lines written so much earlier in the Metamorphosis...

Shakespeare, The Tempest  Act V

 
Ye elves of hills, brooks, standing lakes and groves,
 And ye that on the sands with printless foot
 Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him
 When he comes back; you demi-puppets that
 By moonshine do the green sour ringlets make,
 Whereof the ewe not bites, and you whose pastime
 Is to make midnight mushrooms, that rejoice
 To hear the solemn curfew; by whose aid,
 Weak masters though ye be, I have bedimm’d
 The noontide sun, call’d forth the mutinous winds,
 And ‘twixt the green sea and the azured vault
 Set roaring war: to the dread rattling thunder
 Have I given fire and rifted Jove’s stout oak
 With his own bolt; the strong-based promontory
 Have I made shake and by the spurs pluck’d up
 The pine and cedar: graves at my command
 Have waked their sleepers, oped, and let ‘em forth
 By my so potent art. But this rough magic
 I here abjure, and, when I have required
 Some heavenly music, which even now I do,
 To work mine end upon their senses that
 This airy charm is for, I’ll break my staff,
 Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
 And deeper than did ever plummet sound
 I’ll drown my book.

 
Here is the English translation of the Ovid, (Book 7 Line 265 – 280)

 "...ye Elves of Hilles, of Brookes, of Woods alone,
 Of standing Lakes, and of the Night approche ye everychone
 Through helpe of whom (the crooked bankes much wondring at the thing)
 I have compelled streames to run cleane backward to their spring.
 By charmes I make the calme Seas rough, and make the rough Seas plaine,
 And cover all the Skie with Cloudes and chase them thence againe. …
 By charmes I raise and lay the windes, and burst the Vipers jaw.
 And from the bowels of the Earth both stones and trees doe draw.
 Whole woods and Forestes I remove. I make the Mountaines shake,
 And even the Earth it selfe to grone and fearfully to quake.
 I call up dead men from their graves: and thee O lightsome Moone
 I darken oft, though beaten brasse abate thy perill soone.
 Our Sorcerie dimmes the Morning faire, and darkes the Sun at Noone.
 The flaming breath of firie Bulles ye quenched for my sake
 And caused their unwieldie neckes the bended yoke to take.
 Among the Earthbred brothers you a mortall war did set …’

One thing I try to keep in mind...Shakespeare did not intend for his plays to be published...as literature.  His sole purpose was to stage interesting and perhaps familiar entertainment for the enjoyment of his audience.  Probably the sources of his stories are not as important as were the stories themselves - and their entertainment value.