Author Topic: Tempest, The ~ William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online  (Read 64073 times)

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2012, 09:11:17 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

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 October Book Club Online
The Tempest, Shakespeare's last play, was written in 1611 in the final period of his career.   The play is not really a comedy, but  combines elements of tragedy with comedy, a tragicomedy.

   Shakespeare set the play on an unnamed island in an unidentified age. In it, he  portrays an aging magician, Prospero,  who has been living in exile with his young daughter on a remote island for the past twelve years.

Over the course of a single day, Prospero uses his magic to whip up a tempest to shipwreck the men responsible for his banishment. He then proceeds to dazzle and dismay the survivors (and the audience) with his art as he orchestrates his triumphant return home where he plans to retire in peace.

For a lot of audiences and literary scholars, Prospero seems like a stand-in in for Shakespeare, who spent a lifetime dazzling audiences before retiring in 1611, shortly after The Tempest was completed. Its epilogue seems to be a final and fond farewell to the stage.

When Prospero (after giving up the art of magic he's spent a lifetime perfecting) appears alone before the audience he confesses, "Now my charms are all o'erthrown, / And what strength I have's mine own," we can't help but wonder of Shakespeare is speaking through this character here.
From multiple sources, including Shakespearean Criticism, Gale Cengage

Discussion Schedule
Act II October 8~14
Act III October  15~21
Act IV October 22~28
Act V October 29~Nov.4

   Some Topics to Consider
Act II
  
1. In Act Two, Scene 1, we find other passengers from the ship in another part of the island. What are the following people doing in the beginning of this scene: Alonso, Sebastian, Antonio and Gonzalo? How are each of them characterized and what is their attitude? Why is Alonso especially sad?

2. From what event in Tunis were they coming back when their ship was caught in the tempest? What are their thoughts about the event?

3. Gonzalo makes a speech about how he would govern if he were king on the island. He is interrupted by Sebastian and Antonio. How would you describe Gonzalo's view and the reaction of the others?

4. What are the arguments that Antonio uses to convince Sebastian to commit murder? Are you persuaded by any of the arguments that Sebastian has a right to the throne?

5. In scene Two there is a funny meeting between Caliban, Trinculo and Stephano. What does Caliban think Trinculo is? What does Trinculo think Caliban is? What does Stephano think Trinculo and Caliban are?

6. What does Caliban pledge to do and why? What do Trinculo and Stephano plan to do?

7. Where do you find the role of Providence espoused in Act Two?

8. What other themes do you find reflected in Act Two?

9. What lines from Act Two do you think are especially memorable?

10. Are there ideas from William Strachey's letter that seems to be reflected in this act?

 
 

Relevant links:  
The Tempest (Electronic Version) , BookTV: Hobson Woodard: A Brave Vessel ,
Translation of W. Strachey's long letter describing the shipwreck to the Excellent Woman,
Listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams' "Full Fathom Five"
Memorable Quotes from The Tempest - a list in Progress

 
DLs:  MarcieJoanP,   Barb,   JoanK Babi




I'm speculating on a lot of this JOAN, but my supposition so far is that Prospero
plans on making Ferdinand the new King of Naples, with Miranda as his queen. He,
himself, will take back his place as Duke of Milan. He is quite pleased that Miranda
and Ferdinand are falling in love. Makes his work so much easier!

Quote
using endearing nicknames that will undermine husbandly authority.
That gave me an 'Aha'
moment, BARB. I was always puzzled as to why wives of that period continued to address
their husbands as "Mr. ______".  Showing proper respect for husbandly authority, apparently.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2012, 12:21:23 PM »
Quote
He is quite pleased that Miranda and Ferdinand are falling in love. Makes his work so much easier!
--Babi

"They are both in either's powers.  But this swift business
I must uneasy make, lest too light winning
Make the prize light"   (Scene 2, 541-5)

That definitely reads like Prospero is serious about the match, and not trying to get revenge on Ferdinand by making him fall in love, then snatch Miranda away or use her in some plot.

Is it really important for love to have to overcome adversity?

JudeS

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2012, 12:53:37 PM »
Pat
You gave me my first laugh of the day. A good omen.
You asked :"Does  love have to overcome adversity?"
Well in a Shakespeare's plays it certainly does.
I have here the first glimmer in my mind of why this play is sometimes called a tragicomedy.
In the tragedies, like Romeo and Juliet or Hamlet their is huge adversity to love. But the ending is tragic with death instead of a loving future. In the comedies there are also many barriers to a successful joining of the lovers but they don't die but DO have the future together by overcoming that adversity that is the Drama of the play and keeps us waiting to see what will happen.
We immediately identify with the lovers and ,in a comedy, their goodness, and wait to see how their story will unfold.
So, Pat
You didn't expect that your question would unleash all of these thoughts in my mind. But not being an expert on Mr. S, I don't know if they are right or wrong.
What say you?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: October 06, 2012, 03:46:23 PM »
YES, Yes, yes I like it - thumbs up on that one Jude.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: October 06, 2012, 04:08:43 PM »
JoanP: "Joank, i'll agree with what you said...right up until you said that Miranda and Ferdinand were related.  How so?"

I'm confused. I thought Ferdinand was Antonio's son, which makes A and Miranda cousins.

PatH

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »
Ferdinand is the son of Alonso, King of Naples.  Antonio and Prospero are brothers, Prospero being the rightful Duke of Milan and Antonio the usurper.

I made the same confusion when I was reading, but eventually straightened it out via the cast of characters.

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: October 06, 2012, 09:39:34 PM »
Well, we've got that cleared up...thought the situation was even more complicated. Are you having trouble keeping the names straight? I keep flipping back to the cast of characters and it gets more confusing in the next act!

Quote
They are both in either's powers.  But this swift business
I must uneasy make, lest too light winning
Make the prize light"   (Scene 2, 541-5)

PatHthank, thank you for the quote.  The "swift business" then is love at first sight. I thought this was more of Prospero's  magic, but it seems from the quote that he didn't intend this to happen.  Do you think Shakespeare's audience understood love at first sight?  Do you?  

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: October 06, 2012, 10:04:45 PM »
Here's something I just came across that is a parallel to Shakespeare 's play...

"His aim was to create art that would both resonate with a general audience and fulfill the wishes of the most important member of the audience, King James. A current development in the royal family...all of London was aware that King James's daughter, Princess Elizabeth, would soon chose a royal suitor from the continent and the likeliest choice was Frederick V of the Palantine.  A play in which a fictional father with transcendent powers saw a daughter happily betrothed...might be an entertainment for a royal engagement celebration."

Did Princess Elizabeth actually "choose"  Frederick V ?  Can we say that Miranda chose Ferdinand or did her father "choose" him for her?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2012, 12:37:23 AM »
ha funny can you just imagine the real princess - I will have that one on no that one looks better yes, that is the one I will agree to marry... ;) ::) :D :D :D
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2012, 06:13:39 AM »

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2012, 07:24:36 AM »
The embroidery on that dress she is wearing in the Peake painting is fabulous - I wonder if it still exists at maybe the V&A - or maybe the Costume Museum up in Manchester - how I would love to see that workmanship. Frederick sounds like a bulldozer that gets what he wants when he wants it scooting her and her husband off to the Hague. With all that luxury at her feet from her husband she choice well and on top they suggest it was a love match - Reminds me of the Gershwins song here by Billy Holiday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3jX4WhIW6o&feature=related
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2012, 08:37:07 AM »
 Oh, I think so, JOANP. I think Prospero is pleased the young pair fell in love. It does
make things easier for him, as it is his full intention they will marry irregardless of
how they had felt toward one another. But he doesn't seem surprised at the idea of
'love at first sight'. Perhaps we'll see later how the other characters react to the
idea.
  Thanks for that link on Elizabeth Stuart. I was never clear on how the Hanoverians
came to succeed the Stuarts. I fear my knowledge of English history consists mostly of
the broad, general outline. Few details. I probably took too much of Shakespeare's
'histories' as facts, too.
 
 There is a scene in Act 1 that  produced  a 'huh?'.  Gonzalo is trying to
comfort Alonso, and Sebastian is criticizing his brother to Alonso, saying "He receives
comfort like cold porridge." 
To which Alonso replies, "The visitor will not give him
o'er so."   
Visitor??  What visitor?  What have I missed.  Aha, footnote! A 'visitor',
in Shakespeare's time, apparently referred to a spiritual comforter. 

  I am puzzled by the reference to the island as a 'foul-smelling fen'. This is a
Mediterranean island, is it not?  I thought such islands were lovely edens. Don't tell
me I am about to be disabused of that notion.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Frybabe

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2012, 09:46:06 AM »
I thought that first scene, what I've read so far, was confusing too. I am glad a lot of you have notes. My book does not. I am hoping to get some insight from an e-book that I downloaded about Shakespeare's characters. Unfortunately, I didn't get a lot of time to read yesterday.

JudeS

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2012, 12:08:44 PM »
Last night I watched the movie (2 hours) of The Tempest as done by the BBC in 1980.
It was wonderful .
The two main characters are Proapero(Michael Harden) and Ariel (Derek Godfrey).. The latter bing represented as a young male sprite who sings and plays the music we hear.

This morning I went to the BBC site to read what they had to say.  The most Interesting thing was that the English Olympics Ceremonies this past summer were based on The Tempest. Danny Boyle, the creator, called his show "Isles of Wonder". He used Caliban's speech "Be not afeared , the isle is full of wonders", and had it engraved on a giant bell. He summarises the play by saying it is about restoring justice. That idea is another way to look at this play.

Another interesting note is that "The Tempest" has an animated and simpler animated version. You can pull it up by writing in Google youtube:
BBCShakespeareAnimatedTales part1. There are four separate parts that simplify the story but use Shakespeare's words.

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2012, 12:31:20 PM »
Quote
He summarises the play by saying it is about restoring justice. That idea is another way to look at this play
 
There's a thought, Jude.  Of course Prospero has been done an injustice - sent into exile to this not-quite deserted island.  Have we really considered Caliban and the injustice done to him?

We  have one more day to consider Act I before getting into Act II in the morning - and we really haven't said much about Caliban.  After all, he was the only inhabitant on the island when Prospero and Miranda showed up.  Would you say he's a native - having been born on the island?   Why is he now treated as a slave?  How do you see him - how did he appear to Prospero when he arrived?  

Is he being fairly treated?  Where's the Justice?    Many say that he and Prospero have the leading roles, each representing the extremes of the social spectrum.

Caliban has captured the imagination of artists throughout the ages.  How do you see him?  Mis-shapen and grotesque, as Shakespeare describes him - or simply different from the Europeans?


JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2012, 09:20:25 PM »
"Are you having trouble keeping the names straight? I keep flipping back to the cast of characters and it gets more confusing in the next act!"

YES, I was confused between Antonio and Alonso. It becomes important in Act 2 because the minor characters are lining up: some on Antonio's side and some on Alonso's.

It seems to line up like this:

On one side: Alonzo, King of Naples, Ferdinand's father
Gonzalo: his councellor.

On the other side: Antonio, Duke of Milan, stole Milan from his brother Prospero.
Sebastian: now Antonio wants to steal Naples from Sebastian's brother Alonso with Sebastian's help. 

Looks like it doesn't pay to have a brother in Shakespeare's plays. Of course, given the fights over the British monarchy just before his time, this sort of thing must have seemed normal. I'm realizing how topical Shakespeare was.

JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2012, 09:30:59 PM »
The beginning of Act 2 is difficult, because Shakespeare is doing puns and plays on words, which don't make sense in odern English.

"He(Alonzo) receives comfort like cold porridge" (I love that, but then:

Antonio: "THe visitor" (the person giving him comfort) will not "give him o'er" (abandon him).

The notes in Joan's and my book are good, so if something bothers you, ask here. But sometimes, I just leave the "jokes" alone, as long as I see they are just joking around.

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2012, 09:31:08 PM »
JoanK, I agree. When I first started to read Act Two, I had to flip to the front of the book to verify who's who. I appreciate the reminder that you and others who have notes are willing to share explanations with us all. As you say, we can figure out or skip over some of the words but it's helpful to know what some of the words and references mean.

Jude, like you and some others, I also watched the film of The Tempest created by the BBC in 1980. It seemed like a sort of "stage production" with one camera filming the actors on a set. I enjoyed it and found that it seems to be very faithful to the play. It provides a good overview to reading the book.


marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2012, 01:09:16 AM »
We're moving into Act Two this week, although we can still talk about anything in Act One.

In Act Two, Scene 1, we find other passengers from the ship in another part of the island. What are the following people doing in the beginning of this scene: Alonso, Sebastian, Antonio and Gonzalo? How are each of them characterized and what is their attitude? Why is Alonso especially sad?

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2012, 08:11:44 AM »
Good morning, Marcie!  Curtain rising on Act II - already!   I think there's more to say about Caliban - but he does appear later in this act and we can fill in more of his character then...

~ Poor Alonso, convinced that his son did not survive the storm.  Unconsolable, naturally.   Gonzalo keeps assuring him that Ferdinand is alive and well.  Does he really believe this?  Is he simply trying to console the king?    Or is this some of  Prospero's magic,  or Ariel's doing? I found Gonzalo a most interesting character -  
Ariel is very busy in this opening scene - but not exactly sure what he is supposed to be doing.  He sings into the ear of the sleeping Gonzalo:

"My master through his art foresees the danger
That you, his friend, are in, and sends me forth -
For else his project dies
- to keep them living."

Do you have any idea about Prospero's project might be?   I thought it interesting that Prospero considers Gonzalo his friend.  Maybe because he sent him off 12 years ago with enough books to keep him busy on the island?  

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2012, 09:31:03 AM »
 Was there injustice to Caliban?  He was treated well until he attempted to rape
Miranda. I can well understand how that might change her father's view of him! Definitely
get him out of their house! And keep him under control? Seems reasonable to me, tho'
I admit that since the only method of control available to Prospero was his magic, the
techniques were certainly unpleasant.
  Since Shakespeare is Caliban's creator, I suppose we should accept his description.


 The 'cold porridge' amused me, too, JOANK.  And the 'visitor'?  I was most confused.
What visitor?  Ah, a footnote. Thank goodness!

  It would appear that Trinculo, the jester and Stephano, the drunken butler, are the two
characters our Will has chosen for the broad and bawdy humor his audiences loved.
Since much humor was related to current events, just as it is today,  it's no surprise a lot
of it is going to be 'over our heads'.  I like to read the footnotes for them to see if I enjoy
the joke.

 ..."Misery makes strange bedfellows."    That has a familiar sound, doesn't it?  We are more familiar
with the modern version,  "Politics makes strange bedfellows."   Actually,  my Bartlett's Quotations
led me to  Publius Syrus,  circa 42 BC,  who liked to write maxims of the kind that schoolmasters
love to drum into their young Latin students. I would think that's where Shakespeare heard  "Misery loves company."    Thoreau probably read Syrus, too.  He penned, "If misery loves company,  misery has many companions."
Too true.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2012, 11:30:05 AM »
JoanP, and Babi, as we get to the second scene in this act I am sure that we'll have more to say about the strange Caliban, son of a witch and devil, seemingly both innocent and sinister.

Gonzalo included food, water, rich garments, linens, stuffs and "necessaries" as well as Prospero's beloved books in the boat that was used to exile Gonzalo and his daughter. The way that Prospero described the boat to Miranda (in Act 1, scene 2), I was amused that it could hold all of the gear, including heavy books, without sinking it.
"A rotten carcass of a boat, not rigg'd,
    Nor tackle, sail, nor mast; the very rats
    Instinctively had quit it ..."

We see that Prospero, aided by Ariel, is keeping everyone alive. Why bring them to the island  and why keep each group unaware that the others have survived? As you indicate, JoanP, what is Prospero's "project?" I guess we'll get more clues as we read along.

Frybabe

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2012, 12:12:26 PM »
William Hazlitt (who named among his friends such likes as Samuel Coleridge, Charles and Mary Lamb, and William Wordsworth) concurred with the general thinking of his time that Caliban was one of Shakespeare's masterpieces. In his book, Characters of Shakespeare's Plays, that Caliban "...is one of the wildest and most abstracted of all Shakespeare's characters, whose deformity whether of body or mind is redeemed by the power and truth of the imagination displayed in it."

He says that Shakespeare himself "has described the brutal mind of Caliban in contact with the pure and original forms of nature; the character grows out of the soil where it is rooted uncontrolled, uncouth and wild, uncramped by any of the meannesses of custom. It is 'of the earth, earthy'. It seems almost to have been dug out of the ground, with a soul instinctively superadded to it answering to its wants and origin."

How about that for a description of Caliban. I noticed that Hazlitt refers to Caliban as an it. The description sounds animalistic in nature. Caliban is was used to getting what he wanted, when he wanted it, and how he wanted it. He was brought up with no natural controls or discipline to his wants and needs. Therefore, he thought Miranda as just one more want/need to be satisfied and had no understanding of the consequences imposed by more civilized society in the form of Prospero and Miranda. In his mind the punishment is unjust. To Prospero and Miranda his transgression must be punished. While I think punishment was justified, I do think the form of punishment teaches Caliban nothing but fear and hate.

Jonathan

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2012, 02:14:04 PM »
That's a wonderful post, Frybabe. I must look for Hazlitt's book. How can one help but feel sorry for Caliban, the innocent child of nature, who has had his beautiful island demonized by the magician Prospero. Twelve years Prospero has ruled the island and what does he have to show for it? And wasn't he useless as Duke of Milan? I wonder if they would want him back. Caliban, and Ariel too, would like to see the last of him.

Who are the civilized people in the play? The survivors, after all the assassinations are all over and done with? Perhaps Gonzalo, who sees the potential in the island.

I feel disappointed with Sycorax. Surely she could have taught her boy the art of seduction and not that nonesense about the man and dog on the moon. Perhaps she was thinking escape from the island.

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2012, 05:08:51 PM »
Quote
" the character grows out of the soil where it is rooted uncontrolled, uncouth and wild, uncramped by any of the meannesses of custom"

Thanks for that description of Caliban, Fry.  I sensed this about him, though could not have described him quite as eloquently.  Babi reminds us that Prospero treated him well at first...  We need to remember that Prospero is a visitor to Caliban's island home - where he was born.  But he is intent on converting Caliban, teaching him his language - Italian?  And Caliban was making progress too, until his interest turned to Miranda.  He tells her father that "he would have peopled the island with Calibans"  if Prospero had not prevented him.  Did you get the feeling that his newly learned language skills had revealed his intentions to Prospero?  

Maybe Prospero decided that it was time to find a husband for Miranda before something happened to her... Is this part of Prospero's project?  I'm wondering why the party on the other side of the island is important to his project.  He's got Ferdinand enamoured with Miranda already...

Quote
"Who are the civilized people in the play? "
A good question, Jonathan.  Do you see a parallel between the Italians on this island and the English who civilized the inhabitants at Jamestown?



Frybabe

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2012, 05:18:17 PM »
http://manybooks.net/titles/hazlittwetext04chrsh10.html

Hazlitt's book is listed in ManyBooks, but not Project Gutenberg. The table of contents is not linked. There wasn't as much devoted to The Tempest as I had hoped, but what he said was interesting. Ariel is a counterbalance to Caliban, one is earthy and the other airy.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2012, 06:25:31 PM »
Little time today - will catch up - I was struck how the description of Caliban reminds us of the description at the time, that continued for a couple of centuries, of the American Indian - and of the Blacks before Civil Rights and when you read works where Women have no power they too are of nature, not clean, emotionally wild and unstable with their only purpose to entice to get what they want (a man) - looks to me like Caliban is the symbol for "the foreign other" which during Shakespeare's time we read, I think in Brave Vessel, that London was rife with Xenophobia.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2012, 07:00:59 PM »
I appreciate all of the thoughtful comments about Caliban. Despite his parents, he does seem to represent the "natural, " "uncivilized" state of humans... as you point out, not quite human. Good question, Jonathan, about who the "civilized" people are. Do we think that Shakespeare was making a commentary on the accepted definitions of the day?

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2012, 12:54:05 AM »
Perhaps this next question is related to the "natural" state of Caliban. Gonzalo makes a speech about how he would govern if he were king on the island. He is interrupted by Sebastian and Antonio. How would you describe Gonzalo's view and the reaction of the others?

kidsal

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: October 09, 2012, 02:37:43 AM »
The event they were returning from was the marriage of Alonso's daughter to the King of Carthage.  They seemed to have enjoyed the wedding but Alonso is sorry that his daughter to will live so far away.  Don't understand the bit about Dido???

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: October 09, 2012, 07:01:13 AM »
Kidsal, Shakespeare seems to assume that his audience was as familiar with Virgil's Aeneid as he was.  Maybe they were.  The reference occurs in the conversation about King Alonso's daughter Claribel's lavish wedding in Tunis - not seen since Dido's time.

The Folger edition has a long-ish note explaining the reference to Dido...it seems that queen Dido was a widow when Aeneas came to Tunis - once ancient Carthage. Aeneas "spent time" with her until it was time for him to leave her and head home to his wife.  The widow Dido was so distraught, she committed suicide.  In the play, Sebastian comments that Aeneas should be called a "widower" then.  

Is this a bit of sarcasm?   I'm not sure how this reference relates to the Tempest. Any ideas? Except that Claribel is now queen of Tunis.  If anything were to happen to Ferdinand, she would be the next in line to succede Alonso to the throne in Naples.

Are there implications here?

JoanP

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2012, 07:50:34 AM »
There's so much packed into Act II - I find the action easy to understand, but some of the conversations are so full of references and puns - the notes really become important - happily we are able to share them in this discussion.  
That was quite a conversation - I think it was Antonio (Prospero's brother) trying to persuade poor grieving Alonso to make merry, be joyful that he had escaped the storm, even though his son, Ferdinand was lost.  Antonio wins the prize for the most cold-blooded, does he not?
Finally, Alonzo has enough of such talk and tells him to be quiet - "Prithee peace."  
The Folger edition tells that what follows is a pun on Alonzo's "Prithee peace."-when Sebastian comments to Antonio -
Quote
"He receives comfort like cold porridge"
- the audience knows that the cold porridge is "pease-porridge - a porridge made from peas.  Thus the pun on Alonso's "peace" and "pease-porridge."  I'd say it's a pretty good line, even if we didn't know about the pun...but it is an example of how much there is that is going right over our heads. :D

"pease-porridge hot; pease porridge cold..."

Marcie, I'm finding such a parallel between William Starchey of the Brave Vessel  and Gonzalo's role as peacemaker among these castaways.   I''m looking forward to hearing the reaction here  as to how he would rule the island if he had the chance.  Would it work?  

Babi

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2012, 09:18:27 AM »
MARCIE, I did think Gonzalo's idea of the ideal govenment was most unrealistic. Sebastian
and Antonio, on the other hand, exemplify the the desire of ambitious men to seize power.
Examples, perhaps, of polar opposites? The audience will not like Sebastian and Antonio,
which I'm sure was Shakespeare's intent. I'm sure they wouldn't have taken Gonzalo's
notions anymore seriously than we do.

 This bit made me grin. I could so easily visualize this scene. Gonzalo has been chattering on, and Alonso says,
"I prithee, spare." [Enough, already.]  Gonzalo replies, "Well, I have done. But yet...".  At which point
Sebastiion inserts, "He will be talking." 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2012, 11:41:31 AM »
Kidsal, yes, the king is upset that his daughter is now so far away, even more so now that he thinks that his son is dead. Apparently she is so far away that she seems out of reach and it seems, from the conversation of Sebastian, that she didn't want to marry the King of Tunis in the first place and only did so to obey her father. Sebastian would have preferred that she marry someone closer to home. He blames Alonso for the grief he is now feeling over his daughter (and presumed lost son):
"Sir, you may thank yourself for this great loss,
    That would not bless our Europe with your daughter,
    But rather lose her to an African;
    Where she at least is banish'd from your eye,
    Who hath cause to wet the grief on't."

JoanP, I think you've hit on something when you point out how far away Alonso's daughter is, as we begin to hear the arguments Antonio brings to Sebastian about seizing the throne.

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: October 09, 2012, 11:43:54 AM »
Kidsal and JoanP, I looked up the Dido reference online. It looks like there are lots of theories about it.

One article postulates the following:
"References to Dido, lover of Aeneas, in the second act of The Tempest have garnered much interpretation and speculation by readers and playgoers. Studies over the last few decades have explored Dido's role in Shakespeare's play from the intertwined perspectives of gender, colonization, empire building, and the politics of reading and rewriting classical literature.1 Although some of these have revealed the extensive use of images and themes from the Aeneid in the play and have shown especially how the love of Ferdinand and Miranda is partly parallel to, and partly a reversal of, the ancient love story of Aeneas and the queen of Carthage, there may be another motive for Dido's inclusion, a motive related to a system of wordplay involving shuffled repetitions of the sounds of letters and syllables.2 As Russ McDonald has remarked in Shakespeare's Late Style, "The notorious mystery surrounding Gonzalo's 'Widow Dido' has been examined in almost every conceivable context except, I think, that of aural identity, simple rhyme."3 Although venturing a bit beyond rhyme, this essay focuses on the name of Dido as sound, and as alphabetical letters, situating the name within a set of wordplay practices extending across the genres of drama, prose fiction, poetry, and folk ballad. It explores, therefore, an overlooked linguistic facet of Dido's multifaceted legacy.

My argument begins with anagrammatical wordplay involved in commonplace associations between desirable women and precious jewels, and Dido's participation within that complex. I then consider Dido as an emblem of love-induced madness and explore a link between her name and the nonsense words in bawdy ballads. Finally, I maintain that utterances of "widow Dido" in The Tempest echo the refrain to "Come unto these yellow sands," and therefore participate in Ariel's music, which is both alluring and cautionary. "

There is more at http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/cdr/summary/v043/43.2.golz.html

JoanP you say
"The audience knows that the cold porridge is "pease-porridge - a porridge made from peas.  Thus the pun on Alonso's "peace" and "pease-porridge."  I'd say it's a pretty good line, even if we didn't know about the pun...but it is an example of how much there is that is going right over our heads. "

 So true. Almost every line contains allusions that could make a dissertation! Fortunately, Shakespeare's genius seems to be that he could include all these allusions yet make the play accessible and interesting on other levels too.

marcie

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2012, 12:03:42 PM »
Babi, I too thought that the speech of Gonzalo with the interruptions by Sebastian and Antonio included comic relief, even while debating important societal issues.

Here is an interesting brief analysis of the Elizabethan world view and debates included in this scene:

"Alonso is king and represents authority. To plot his murder and to seize the crown is to usurp authority given by God. In England, the idea that a king was anointed by god was a crucial point in maintaining authority over the people. To kill God's representative on earth was a rebellion against the highest authority in the heavens. These two conspirators seek greater freedom and power than they are entitled to, and so they plot a coup. However, they forget that they are stranded on this island, with no kingdom to assume. Their plot to make Sebastian king neglects to ask king of what? They are far from Naples, with little expectation of rescue. Indeed, they never mention rescue, and thus, their plot to murder the king and seize his title would make Sebastian king of nothing.

The blending of illusion and reality, which was created in Act I with the imaginary storm, is carried forward in this scene, with Gonzalo's observation that their clothing is unharmed by the salt water, appearing as it did before the storm occurred. Gonzalo envisions a utopia, but the impossibility of such a thing happening is best illustrated by Antonio and Sebastian's plot. Even when there is no reason to plot a murder, they do so. It is in their nature, and one reason why Gonzalo's vision lacks reality is simply because it neglects to consider human nature, which fails to bow to illusion."

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/the-tempest/summary-analysis/act-ii/scene-1.html


Depictions of views of utopia and counter views seem to be a good part of this play. Maybe we can keep our eyes out for more.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2012, 12:49:05 PM »
Goodness the references are amazing - started to read Virgil's Aeneid.  It was not much help because it also is referring to places and events and attitudes that unfortunately I have no clue and I do not have an annotated copy.

I need to pull out the bit I read that explains Strachey's disdain for the sea captain who governs Bermuda and Jamestown till the new Governor arrived.  On Bermuda and in Jamestown Captain Somers rolls up his sleeves and works along side the others - Strachey sees this as a breakdown in an accepted system and is the cause for failure.

Class defined the workforce - along with this attitude that the 'natural' new world is the God promised Paradise, where man will not have to lift a finger to survive and all will be harmony among 'men' because of the 'natural' bounty. Both of which Strachey sees as the cause of the downfall at Jamestown. He sees that the democracy (my word) of labor as a lack of discipline and he writes about the lack of 'husbanding' the land and its resources that resulted in hundreds of years of successful farming in England. He is disturbed seeing a lack of leadership that in England is automatic to land ownership.

Land ownership is wealth and title means your role on earth is leadership in everything from protecting the nation - to scholarship - to assuring the landless are working - to husbanding the land, its forests and rivers. The early Virginia Company settlers were a few Reformation Clergy, land holders in England, veterans from the war in the Netherlands and craftsmen however, few to no farmers -

Strachey speaks to the Spanish using natives to do the labor where as, the natives in Virgina are not docile nor did the Virgina Company send soldiers to tame the natives. The religious were as a result of the Reformation, who held to the concept of 'natural' being Paradise with all its implications rather than, the Catholic priests who were still tied to the Old Europe with the belief that work and sacrifice is why we are made and therefore, when they converted the Indian the Indian worked to build the mission and plant the fields.

I'm thinking Gonzalo's is similar to Captain Somers who is not maintaining the Old European way that Strachey writes is the cause for the disaster in Jamestown - Later, a strong Calvinist governor is sent to Jamestown whose rules include, no communication through mail to family back in England and everyone must work seven days a week under draconian regulations. He uses the stocks for minor infractions. He only lasts a couple of years and finally, a governor who moves Jamestown up-river, off the swamp, do the 'planters' get a foothold in this so called 'Paradise', a concept continually used by the Virgina Company to sell folks on the idea of moving to Jamestown.

Shakespeare peoples his Island with noblemen, some of whom are veterans of war, who bring with them the infighting that was prominent in Bermuda as well as in Jamestown. 'Paradise' Lost...
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JoanK

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2012, 03:07:56 PM »
Barb: I assume strachey never actually had to live in a colony in the wilderness?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2012, 06:10:23 PM »
He did live in both Bermuda and then he is aboard the ship that makes it to Jamestown - he was the one writing and sending dispatches back to London to the Virgina Company - I forgot how many years he stayed in Jamestown but over 2 years - his wrote the letter describing their exploits to the Excellent Lady and letters filled with descriptive information dispatched to the Virgina Company from which they determined who to send as the next Governor and what group to make their appeal to settle Jamestown.  

The Virgina Company was all about the investment and appealing to those who could and would invest with the Reformation concept that the new world was a Paradise 'Where the livin' is easy' therefore, no need to think of practical skills till more than half of the first group of ‘planters’ starves to death. Strachey points the finger in his dispatches to laziness and lack of leadership which was an expected right and duty of the titled landowners.

England, just coming out of the Feudal system many of the landless lower class saw the new world as opportunity. The landed gentry were kicking the peasants off the land and out of the homes where families lived for generations. The peasants had no legal documents giving them a right to the property - only tradition. The landowners wanted to redo parks and common areas to their concept of better land use seeing it as their estates.

All to say, Strachey saw Jamestown's early leaders not following the Old traditions. Strachey had no knowledge or understanding of a classless society working together to get the job done. We are so used to an attitude of 'we are all in this together' it never would occur to us what he really meant when he found fault with Captain Somers for going to the individuals to talk to them in Bermuda and to help with the work in both Bermuda and in Jamestown as a breakdown.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

kidsal

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Re: The Tempest by William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2012, 03:16:30 AM »
  Thanks for the explanation of Dido -- Aeneid has been sitting on my shelf waiting for a time to read it!