Author Topic: Tempest, The ~ William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online (Read 64092 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #200 on:** October 18, 2012, 03:02:31 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

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October Book Club Online

The Tempest, Shakespeare's last play, was written in 1611 in the final period of his career. The play is not really a comedy, but combines elements of tragedy with comedy, a tragicomedy.

Shakespeare set the play on an unnamed island in an unidentified age. In it, he portrays an aging magician, Prospero, who has been living in exile with his young daughter on a remote island for the past twelve years.

Over the course of a single day, Prospero uses his magic to whip up a tempest to shipwreck the men responsible for his banishment. He then proceeds to dazzle and dismay the survivors (and the audience) with his art as he orchestrates his triumphant return home where he plans to retire in peace.

For a lot of audiences and literary scholars, Prospero seems like a stand-in in for Shakespeare, who spent a lifetime dazzling audiences before retiring in 1611, shortly after The Tempest was completed. Its epilogue seems to be a final and fond farewell to the stage.

When Prospero (after giving up the art of magic he's spent a lifetime perfecting) appears alone before the audience he confesses, "Now my charms are all o'erthrown, / And what strength I have's mine own," we can't help but wonder of Shakespeare is speaking through this character here. From multiple sources, including Shakespearean Criticism, Gale Cengage

Discussion Schedule

Act IV	October 22~25
Act V	October 26 ~ end

Some Topics to Consider
Act IV

1. After the drama in Act III, Act IV is quite different in tone. Does that work dramatically?

2. Many think that Prospero is supposed to be Shakespeare himself. What evidence do you see of that in this Act?

3. It's also possible to see Prospero and his magic as representing England and its power colonizing the globe. What evidence do you see of that? Which interpretation do you like best?

4. How does Prospero reveal the attitude of the English of the time toward "natives"? Is that Shakespeare's attitude toward Caliban?

5. Why does Shakespeare introduce the vow that Ferdinand makes? What does Juno say later about it? Does it add to the play? Does it tell us about current attitudes?

6. Why is Prospero "expected" to put on this little play? How does this fit into the customs of the time?

7. Who are Iris, Ceres, Juno? Would Shakespeare's audience have been familiar with them?

8. Does the story of the "glittering clothes" have allegorical meaning? Does it continue the theme of freedom and bondage?

9. "We are the stuff that dreams are made of." Does Shakespeare successfully interweave fantasy and reality in this act? How does this compare with his other plays? With more modern plays with a similar theme?

Relevant links:
The Tempest (Electronic Version) , BookTV: Hobson Woodard: A Brave Vessel ,
Translation of W. Strachey's long letter describing the shipwreck to the Excellent Woman,
Listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams' "Full Fathom Five"
Memorable Quotes from The Tempest - a list in Progress

DLs: JoanK , Barb, Marcie, JoanP, Babi

Jonathan · « **Reply #201 on:** October 18, 2012, 03:04:22 PM »

The missing books. I just remembered. At the time of Mark Twain's death, the executors of his will promptly auctioned off all his books. His reputation would not long outlast his death they felt and his stuff would decline in value. Perhaps the same happend with Shakespeare's llibrary.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #202 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:57:38 PM »

Oh my Jonathan - missing libraries - fine information from Prof. Garber - 3 denouncements on the play from Strachey - the magical number 3 again, similar to the grouping of characters that JoanK questions - much to chew on - along with a nod from JoanP to the issue of sound...

With the harpy descending on the group of Lords. a Duke and a King, my hunch is that is the most dramatic of Act III - descending with all that thunderous sound preceded by a table laden with food - quite an entrance - the early audiences must have been enchanted with a bit of fear rising in their tummies -

I think it may be the key to the climax of this story. I would like to review the play as we have read it so far and note all the phrases and directions etc. that are describing sounds other than the voices of our characters and see if there are associations that we would be wise to give our attention.

Here is a really good link that includes just about every aspect of Harpies http://www.harpy.info/

JoanP · « **Reply #203 on:** October 19, 2012, 09:25:42 AM »

Quote

I was laughing so hard at the antics of the three clowns.

Exactly, Jonathan - even though they have murder in their hearts, they are so comical we know already they will not succeed with their plot to kill Prospero - in contrast to Antonio and Sebastian's plot to kill Alonso. The "clowns" are motivated to kill to free Caliban...and to gain power for themselves. The nobles' plan is simply to gain the crown, to gain power - for themselves. Bottom line, these guys are willing to kill for power.

JoanK, I find it interesting that Alonso is the intended victim - and also one of the Three Men of Sin. It seems that he was in on the plot to depose Prospero 12 years earlier. I didn't realize that before. It seems he is about to be punished for that - as are the other two.

I don't know why I find the Harpies so fascinating...loved the link you provided, Barb. They go way back to ancient mythology. I've a note that says the Harpies appeared to travelers - to Jason and his Argonauts, to Aeneas in the Aeneid. "In these stories they destroy starving travelers' food and utter prophecies about the future."

They are both beautiful sirens and horrible, treacherous. They are part woman, part bird. Why is that, do you think? Do they reflect man's perception of women?

Imagine these very hungry, starving castaways coming the banquet table of food, only to have the Harpies descend and the food disappear.
Ariel appears as a beautiful Harpy. Does he make a prediction, as Harpy's are said to do?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #204 on:** October 19, 2012, 11:29:08 AM »

Oh my, Ariel appears as a beautiful Harpy - this gigantic bird with the face of a women screaming the scream of a Harpy would scare the bejeebers out of me beautiful or not. Just the idea of a gigantic bird - to be the size of a normal large bird with the face of a women in place of its beaked face, the face would be so diminutive as to seem curious. So the bird had to be at least the size of a human - beautifully feathered or not - an out-sized bird beyond th size anything anyone has ever witnessed to me would be scary. Plus it has a human face - Holy Hannah, I'm backing up already - And then this creature has the power to whisk away the magically appearing table laden with food - wow - and all this is accompanied by the sound of thunder - sheesh... This is carrying Jude's coined phrase, Magical Realism to its limits...

Babi · « **Reply #205 on:** October 19, 2012, 04:45:26 PM »

I had a post written early this morning, and then had to dash off without finishing it. I thought I had saved it, but....
I am not sharp enough today to recall what on earth I wrote, so I'm just going to move on.

Wow. Ariel's denunciation minced no words. Notice the different reactions of Alonso and of
Stephano and Antonio. Gonzalo's summation says it perfectly: "All three of them are desperate, their great guilt, like poison given to work a great time after, now 'gins to bite the spirits." He sends the younger courtiers to pursue the three and keep them from "what this ecstasy may now provoke them to".
Obviously, the 'ecstasy' in this sense was not one of pleasure. The word more accurately means a state of being beyond reason and self-control.

Good heavens! Insurers gave 5-to-1 odds that a traveler abroad would not return alive. A very strong cue as to how dangerous travel was then. No wonder most people lived their lives close to where they were born.

JudeS · « **Reply #206 on:** October 19, 2012, 06:10:31 PM »

Am I the only one enamored of the sprite Ariel?
I find him incredibly witty and clever.
As he flies above the action he sees it all and makes it come out just right for Prospero.

I went searching and found that the first "Penguin Book" published in 1930 was a biography of Percy Bysse Shelley and the book was called: "Ariel".
Shelley also had words from The Tempest engraved on his tombstone.

Ariel, The Lion of the Lord, has to be a powerful figure. He serves his Lord, Prospero, with wit, perspicacity and humor.
The play without him would be very boring.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #207 on:** October 19, 2012, 08:08:17 PM »

Ariel is a wonder - I still have a difficult time picturing him as a him - Ariel is so fairy like except when he became a harpy which is a female - so the cross dressing here makes me that much more see him as a female fairy like creature. Ah so - what ever the sex he sure was one bringing much of the "noise" to those on the Island.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #208 on:** October 19, 2012, 08:08:41 PM »

I copied everything that is not typical words and Ariel sure makes much "noise" - here is what I found.

Right off the bat - some of the first words PROSPERO says:
The hour's now come.
The very minute bids thee ope thine ear.
Why would Shakespeare warn the audience to listen? Do you think he is saying, listen to more than what the actors say - listen to the other sounds.

OK here we go...

To run upon the sharp wind of the north,
To do me business in the veins o'th' earth
When it is baked with frost.
Suggesting the silence of frost that comes with the quiet blow of the sharp north wind.

Did make wolves howl,

Ariel encased in the Oak
howled away twelve winters.

The watch-dogs bark!
Bow-wow!
Hark, hark! I hear
The strain of strutting chanticleer
Cry cock-a-diddle-dow!

FERDINAND
Where should this music be? I'th' air or th' earth?
This music crept by me upon the waters,

With its sweet air. Thence I have followed it,
Or it hath drawn me, rather. But 'tis gone.
No, it begins again.

ARIEL Song
Full fathom five thy father lies,
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes;
Nothing of him that doth fade,
decay, decompose, become corrupt
But doth suffer a sea-change
undergo, sustain, endure
Into something rich and strange.
Sea-nymphs hourly ring his knell:
Ding-dong.
Hark! Now I hear them – Ding-dong bell.
no sound event, happening, occurrence
That the earth owes. I hear it now above me.

He does hear me,
And that he does, I weep.

Enter Ariel, playing solemn music

SEBASTIAN
Thou dost snore distinctly.
There's meaning in thy snores.

Enter Ariel with music and song
Sings in Gonzalo's ear
While you here do snoring lie,

Talk about the sound of bulls and lions

Enter Caliban with a burden of wood.
A noise of thunder heard

another storm brewing. I hear it sing i'th' wind.
it should thunder as it did before, I know not where to hide my head.

thunderbolt.
Thunder Alas, the storm is come again.

STEPHANO
singing
He drinks and then sings
Come on, Trinculo, let us sing.

ACT III.ii.
Sings
Ariel plays the tune on a tabor and pipe

CALIBAN
the isle is full of noises,
Sounds, and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments

Will hum about mine ears; and sometime voices
That, if I then had waked after long sleep,
Will make me sleep again; and then, in dreaming,
The clouds me thought would open, and show riches

Solemn and strange music; and Prospero on the top,
invisible. Enter several strange shapes, bringing in a
banquet; and dance about it with gentle actions of salutations;

Marvellous sweet music!

Thunder and lightning. Enter Ariel, like a harpy
Wound the loud winds,
He vanishes in thunder. Then, to soft music, enter the
shapes again, and dance with mocks and mows, carrying
out the table(assuming that dancing makes sound)

ALONSO
The winds did sing it to me; and the thunder,
That deep and dreadful organ-pipe, pronounced
The name of Prosper: it did bass my trespass.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #209 on:** October 19, 2012, 08:20:29 PM »

Music and Thunder are the sounds spoke about the most in this play - they come together mostly when Ariel is on stage - another is the howling barking - They all come together in one when Ariel shape changes into a Harpy.

JoanP · « **Reply #210 on:** October 20, 2012, 07:35:57 AM »

Quote

"The play without him[Ariel] would be very boring."

I think you're right, Jude. How else would Prospero manuever without Ariel? He'd have to come up with another to carry out his wishes, but I can't think of a more magnicent one than the winged creature he has chosen.

Babi - you referred to Gonzalo in your post...as he condemns the three men of sin. Remembering the part Gonzalo played twelve years before in shipping Prospero and the baby girl off to sea, I had concluded that he was one of these three. But it appears that the third man is Alonso - Gonzalo seems to be the voice of reason, doing what he can to keep a neutral position...much like William Strachey did in Bermuda and Jamestown. The three men of sin don't consider him a traitor to their cause - they think he's one of them, don't they?

Barb...quite a throrough examination of all noises - the thunder, the music. I went to the heading and followed the link to the Full Fathorm Five after reading your post. Love that!

Aside from the noises, there are those mysterious "shapes" - how did you picture them? They brought in the banquet to the amazement of the starving castaways. It was Gonzalo who counselled not to fear the shapes and eat the food - referring to other fantastic appearances when they were "boys" -
An example he gave was - "the men whose heads stood in their breasts!" The Folger edition shows this woodcut illustrating such a man:

From Conrad Lycosthenes, Prodigiorum ac ostentorum chronicon, Basel, 1557.

By the time the harpies arrive, I think we're mentally ready to accept them after hearing of the fantastic creatures of the past. Shakespeare's audience was probably familiar with such tales too. They knew their presence meant trouble - not just that they would take their food - but that they would also curse them with dire predictions. Prospero seems to be on the stage with them at this point...orchestrating... What did they predict for these three? Would Gonzalo be cursed as well? Do you think Prospero holds a grudge against him?

Babi · « **Reply #211 on:** October 20, 2012, 09:35:42 AM »

You're right, JUDE. Except for puzzling over his gender, we haven't paid nearly
enough attention to Ariel. He is the one actually wielding the magic; Prospero has
control over him/her. He does amazing things, apparently with the greatest of ease.
He plays beautiful music and sings...how I wish I could hear those songs. Don't you
think they must have been popular with the public, just as we enjoy show songs now.

BARB, you must have put a lot of time and effort into assembling all those 'noises'
for us. I appreciate you doing it, as I had been thinking only the sense of strange
noises, like the music from invisible sources. I hadn't even noticed the frequent
thunderstorms.

Amusing woodcut, JOAN. I was imagining something more like those with very short necks, whose head seems
to be on the shoulders. The woodcut version is more fantastic, and would have probably been preferred by Ariel/
Prospero.
I wouldn't think Prospero holds a grudge against Gonzalo. He would be well aware of a courtier's obligation to
obey his king, and he would also understand that Gonzalo did not have to do all that he did to help the desperate
father and daughter. I feel confidant he views Gonzalo as an honorable man.

"The hour's now come. The very minute bids thee ope thine ear." BARB, it occurs to me now that opening
could have been the playwright's artful way of letting the audience know 'we're about to start; you need to settle
down and listen'.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #212 on:** October 20, 2012, 02:10:31 PM »

The only bits we have not touched on are the medium of exchange or the currency that has value on the Island and coupled with that what of value on the island could be substituted for the prize of Miranda.

Starting with what you need to "buy" from another on the Island - it appears that Caliban knows where all the necessities of life are located. Caliban also fetches the wood for fires.

And show'd thee all the qualities o' the isle,
The fresh springs, brine-pits, barren place and fertile:

I'll show thee the best springs; I'll pluck thee berries;
I'll fish for thee and get thee wood enough.

How is he paid? Prospero thinks educating him is the value exchange and he uses his power that came from his education to control both Caliban and Ariel.

Caliban offers his services and knowledge of the Island to Stephano. In his hatred of Prospero he promises Miranda as a prize to Stephano - coming from him it sounds trite however, girls as prizes in the game of power stakes is typical although, here on this small Island it seems ludicrous. And so, we are back to value - what of value could be a replacement for a Miranda? How do you bribe or entice or offer gifts of gratitude when all the usual trappings of society boil down to survival?

Ferdinand's affection-affliction is enough to exchange with Miranda her affection - I guess they will live on Love. Gonzalo points to the "low hanging fruit" for their pickings however, they will need a fire and shelter - what currency will they use? I am sure a magical dinner arriving was a relief but then it was snatched away. Is power and magic the currency on this Island - if you do not have it than you are dependent upon those who do have it?

Babi · « **Reply #213 on:** October 21, 2012, 10:09:03 AM »

There really isn't any medium of exchange on the island, is there. Except, perhaps, for labor. A castaway would be
expected to find his own food and fresh water, construct his own shelter. and find a way to defend himself from any
dangers that might be there. If there are people already resident on the island, all would depend on whether they
were helpful or hostile. The only medium of exchange I can see would be labor; ie., 'if you can provide some kind
lumber, I can build shelters'. Or the hunters share their meat with the gatherers and cooks.

JudeS · « **Reply #214 on:** October 21, 2012, 01:10:42 PM »

Barb
In the PBS version I saw everyone lived in caves.

The wood for fires was for warmth and cooking.

I can't conceive of putting our needs on these people in the play. At some point either you fly into their world and accept it whole or you stand aside and try to understand it not using the imaginative flight pattern that Shakespeare set us on.

When I fly with the Shakespeare Line I forget everything else and enjoy my journey into another world.

My world is too weary and not everything ends up "just right".

Jonathan · « **Reply #215 on:** October 21, 2012, 02:10:21 PM »

Everyone sees only the deformed monster in Caliban. Why is that? He was self-sufficient, it seems, until Prospero came along. Then, like now with Trinculo and Stephano, he was willing to share the resources of the island. He was eager to learn what Prospero and Miranda could teach him. He was attuned to all the enchantments of the island. He was more sinned against than sinner himself. And yet he seems unworthy of sympathy. His island means just as much to him as the dukedom of Milan means to Prospero.

I wonder if the prejudice against him comes from being the son of a witch. We can have no idea of the threat seen in witches in medieval and even Elizabethan times. Witchcraft Acts were still in force. Witches were hanged in public. Witchery was a force to be reckoned with. What a strange thing. Was it an early, active form of militant feminism? Women determined to play a role in worldly affairs.

I hope there is a happy ending in here for Caliban.

Jonathan · « **Reply #216 on:** October 21, 2012, 02:16:43 PM »

Jude, Shakespeare would have made a wonderful thing of your life.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #217 on:** October 21, 2012, 03:04:04 PM »

Caliban sure is a curious character and as you say Jonathan he had much to offer, was willing to learn from others and loved as much as any, his homeland.

His labor is defiantly a sought after commodity for Prospero and the "clowns" were not turning down his offer to serve them. I wonder if part of it is due to his view of himself - he may be a sight to behold and a smell that belongs in the sea but he is willing to swap his service and labor calling that freedom - he does not think in terms of being the top dog - he suggests that for Stephano all because of the break in his misery provided by a drink.

Jude what I see is an imagination that created a place with limited developed resources and a limited number of people who can produce resources that other characters show are needed. And so how do you coerce someone to do the tasks or how do you get the fish from the sea and the firewood to stay warm without coercion, or magic or imprisonment labor. So far those are the only three mediums of exchange built into the story.

As we see examples of the Calibans of the world I think the example of the island without an exchange medium that we take for granted is similar to many communities in poverty around the world and here in the US. You can match the human dynamics in these communities replacing religion for magic in some places and using magic and Shamans in other places along with, subjugating some to even further degradation as they supply the labor to bring the few human comforts to those in the community. And then, with few resources and options how do you bribe folks in battles over power except by using force?

I still wonder if the medium of value - the medium of exchange - on this island - is labor as Babi suggests or, magic or, power and control or, education or, love (Caliban had to love himself or he would have done away with himself a long time ago rather than be a slave for the remainder of his life)

And then why the table laden with food - Shakespeare could have written that scene with any number of enticements including, a vessel not dissimilar to the one given to Prospero when he was sent adrift. What does Prospero see as the reason or symbol of a table laden with food? Somehow to me this is all mixed - power that comes from education and love of education to create the magic that not only assists Prospero and his beloved daughter but enslaves those he saves.

He defiantly saved Ariel from being encased in the oak tree - as to educating Caliban not sure if that was a saving grace but that was part of the bargain.

And so I am still confused as to the meaning of the climactic event assuming we think the magical table laden with food followed by the appearance of the Harpy represents something more than a cartoon of images. What do y'all think is the meaning of the table and the Harpy and is retribution the reason for all this. That Prospero used his magic to bring about a storm knowing who was sailing nearby and after all these years it was his opportunity to kill two birds - nab a suitor for his daughter and heap retribution on his enemies.

JoanK · « **Reply #218 on:** October 21, 2012, 03:56:50 PM »

We still have a lot to say about Act III. But tomorrow, we start on Act IV. It features a diversion with Greek goddesses. I found it hard to follow, so in case you haven't thought about Greek goddesses for awhile, here are my "Kraft notes":

Iris: the rainbow. Comes, in praising the richness of the earth for:

Ceres: goddess of the earth, who in turn praises Iris and her rainbow. They talk about:

Venus: the goddess of love (but hated by Ceres -- please don't ask why, it would make the notes too long). Venus had planned to trick Ferdinand into violating his vow of chastity but:

her son: (Eros, i.e.Cupid, the boy with the arrows), refuses to cooperate, and won't shoot arrows anymore (he must be becoming a sulky teenager!). Then comes:

Juno: the queen of the goddesses who recites a poem.

Hope that helps make it clearer, so you can relax and just enjoy S's rich imagery.

JoanP · « **Reply #219 on:** October 21, 2012, 09:01:02 PM »

Thanks JoanK - I've been busy today - and see that you are ready to go on into Act IV in the morning. Thanks for identifying these goddesses. I find the rift between Queen Juno and Venus fascinating. Can't wait to get to them tomorrow... there's a real significance to the story.

Before we let the curtain down on Scene III, I wonder if you can answer this question about the Three Men of Sin. I real so badly for Alonso. He's certain he has heard Prospero's voice - at least his name - in the wind. He seems consumed with guilt for his part in deposing Prospero and wants to find his son's watery grave and die with him. Does this mean that he believes Prospero is here on the island - and that they are doomed? Is this how you see it?

IF so, how are Sebastian and Alonso reacting to the shapes? Do they feel the same guilt that Alonso does? Gonzalo thinks they are desperate, feeling grief. I'm not sure about that, but Gonsalo thinks it's true.

Babi · « **Reply #220 on:** October 22, 2012, 09:57:40 AM »

Good point, JONATHAN. When one sets aside the view of Caliban endorsed by Shakespeare's
characters, Caliban could well be 'more sinned against'. It would be nice to say that we are
above all that now, but you know there is still a good deal of discrimination against people
who are not attractive, badly overweight, etc. A pleasant looking fellow can approach at
night without causing alarm, but a rough-looking sort is scary? Not a smart assumption.
And of course, anything associated with witch is suspect. And the son of a 'devil' can't be
anything but evil.

I had to go to the 'Tempest' link to read the section re. Iris, Ceres,et al. I seem to have
missed it entirely; I don't know how. Tho' is would seem they were not actually there. Prospero
says, in answer to Ferdinand's question about them:

Spirits, which by mine art
I have from their confines call'd to enact
My present fancies.

JOANP, I thought it was guilt that Gonzalo attributed to these men. Alonso was certainly grieving,
but all three had their guilt to deal with.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #221 on:** October 22, 2012, 01:04:18 PM »

Quote

Simple magic was also called folk magic because it was used to affect the everyday live of the people. Before the Christian era, witches in Europe were usually women. They were the village healers and spell-makers. They were respected and feared because of their powers to bring wealth, love, health or sickness and death. Even though witches were important to the village, they were always considered outsiders.

During the period of the witch-hunts, people believed that witches could fly. Some witches were said to ride demons that had taken the shapes of goats, cows, or other animals. The belief in the ability to fly has been a long standing and important part of many spiritual traditions. Flying represents the freedom of the spirit or soul to break away from the physical world and travel in the spirit world. Even though the belief of flying was a long-standing tradition, by the tenth century most educated people in Europe were skeptical of this ability.

Another common belief was that witches had familiars. Authorities claimed that the familiar was a demon or devil, transformed into an animal form to do a witch's evil bidding. People believed familiars could change shape or become invisible. Familiars were usually small animals such as dogs, cats, toads, mice and owls. Many witches' familiars had unusual names. To church authorities during the witch-hunts, familiars were demons, because the only spiritual entities that could exist, according to the church, were God, angels, the devil and demons.

JudeS · « **Reply #222 on:** October 22, 2012, 01:29:47 PM »

BarbStA

What a great precursor to Halloween you posted!

Overall, this act is my favorite.
The language is beautiful. I almost (but not quite) melted.

We also, I feel, have Shakeskespeare's final speech about himself, the Globe Theater and Theater in general.
No one has ever described theater and its impact better than this.

"And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself-
Yea all that we inherit-shall dissolve
And like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. (rack=mist)

JoanP · « **Reply #223 on:** October 22, 2012, 02:17:21 PM »

I agree, Jude, Barbara's post - a perfect segueway into Halloween!
I can't help but wonder how the people at the turn of the century - Shakespeare's audience - thought about witches. Surely still superstitious. Those frightening beliefs - or superstitions must have lingered for a good long time - right into the New World. Look at Scarlet Letter - witchkraft alive and well in the 19th century.

JoanP · « **Reply #224 on:** October 22, 2012, 02:32:16 PM »

"We start on Act IV. It features a diversion with Greek goddesses." JoanK

I found it hard to follow too. Couldn't figure out the relevance of theses goddesses - though the connection cleared up toward the end of the scene.

masque: "a form of festive courtly entertainment that flourished in 16th and early 17th century Europe. in A masque involved music and dancing, singing and acting, within an elaborate stage design, to present a deferential allegory flattering to the patron. King James I's queen consort, Anne of Denmark, frequently danced with her ladies in masques between 1603 and 1611."

I've a note which says that this particular masque was added to The Tempest for the play's performance during the wedding festivities in 1613 for James I daughter, Elizabeth. That makes me wonder what the original Act IV was like when it was first presented in 1611. Guess it doesn't matter, because once added, it remained - as can be seen when this play was collected in the first Folio in 1623. I gather this audience was more familiar with mythology than we are - and saw the connection to Ferdinand and Miranda's romance immediately.

Somehow S. managed to seemlessly work the masque into the plot of The Tempest...

JoanK · « **Reply #225 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:50:45 PM »

And it makes Act IV a respectable length.

JUDE: I love that passage, too. Here is where I really see the mix of reality and fantasy that you talked about earlier.

What do the rest of you think?

JoanK · « **Reply #226 on:** October 22, 2012, 05:03:05 PM »

In the masque, ceres refuses to participate if venus is to be there. this is based on a story told by Ovid: Venus had plotted to make Dys (Pluto), the lord of the underworld, fall in love with Ceres daughter, Persephone, and kidnap her to the underworld. She is only allowed to come out and be with her mother for half the year (Spring and Summer). The other half, she must spend underground, and because of Ceres grief, the world dies.

I wouldn't talk to Venus either.

Babi · « **Reply #227 on:** October 23, 2012, 09:25:54 AM »

Prospero did arrange to have his spirit 'goddesses' bless the impending marriage in a most
appropriate way. Beautiful sentiments, with a small 'ping' at Venus and Cupid for comic relief.
I found that a novelty. Cupid today is always presented as an adorable cherub who brings romance
into life. Cupid as troublesome brat is a new view to me.

And the proud father, boasting of his daughter: "She shall outstrip all praise, and make it halt behind her." Isn't that sweet?

JUDE, I had that same quote in my notes. Surely, a most appropriate farewell for the foremost dramatist of his day.

What do you think of the idea of 'a born devil', as Caliban is termed? One "on whose nature nurture can never stick; on whom my pains, humanely taken, all, all lost, quite lost!" I cannot believe in the idea of a child 'born' evil. At the same time, there are unarguably sociopaths in the world. What causes them? Are they beyond help?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #228 on:** October 23, 2012, 01:24:51 PM »

This whole bit from Ariel sounded to me like a poetic recap of those on Bermuda after they figured out how to make spirits and were spending time looking for pearls on the other side of the Island from where the main party was encamped.

ARIEL
I told you, sir, they were red-hot with drinking;
So fun of valour that they smote the air
For breathing in their faces; beat the ground
For kissing of their feet; yet always bending
Towards their project. Then I beat my tabour;
At which, like unback'd colts, they prick'd
their ears,

Advanced their eyelids, lifted up their noses
As they smelt music: so I charm'd their ears
That calf-like they my lowing follow'd through
Tooth'd briers, sharp furzes, pricking goss and thorns,
Which entered their frail shins: at last I left them
I' the filthy-mantled pool beyond your cell,
There dancing up to the chins, that the foul lake
O'erstunk their feet.

Jonathan · « **Reply #229 on:** October 23, 2012, 02:33:51 PM »

Up to their chins, in the filthy-mantled pool. What a sorry spectacle of these three clowns on their way to murder Prospero. All led by Ariel and his tabor. With ears pricked, staring eyes, and their noses sniffing the strange music. And isn't Ariel happy at what he has achieved. Of course he is sniffing his own freedom that Prospero has promised.

Prospero is not at all happy. It's hard to guess at his mood. He seems a bit discouraged. Such a glorious masque, and yet he seems to see a dream ending. The gorgeous palaces, the solemn temples, the cloud-capped towers, where are they? Even the celestial beings...this insubstantial pageant has faded, is gone.

Even more poignant are Prospero's feelings about his failure with Caliban. All the pains he had taken, humanely, 'all , all lost, quite lost'.

He seems ready to throw his book away. He seems to be suffering from an inner crisis. A lack of confidence?

Thank you all for your well-chosen quotes.

JoanK · « **Reply #230 on:** October 23, 2012, 03:05:27 PM »

"One "on whose nature nurture can never stick; on whom my pains, humanely taken, all, all lost, quite lost!" "

What do you think of the notion of Prospero and his magic representing England and its (relatively) advanced technology colonizing the wworld? If so, the statement above is the justification for treatment of the "natives".

Does Shakespeare's description of Caliban completely bear this out?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #231 on:** October 23, 2012, 03:45:28 PM »

Hmm I think it was more like a line of falling domino than a plan to colonize the world - the Tech allowed folks with an entrepreneurial mind to see ways of making money and so they put together groups to finance their business ventures and once there, with pride they planted their English flag in culture as well as, land claims. Most of these adventurers sought permission from the Kings and Queens but few ventures were financed by the national treasury and so I see the colonization of the world more as a business venture with easier access to the technology in certain countries therefore their corporate dreams could be larger and could be realized.

I guess I see it no different than today - a group of dreamers see dollar earnings by bringing to the market their idea - they secure the required licenses, permits and list their LLC or Incorperte just as in history they would file a charter or get permission from the crown.

Today many corporations take pride in letting you know the nation that originated the company from IKEA to Apple to Toyota - the only difference there is not the land grab that was still important during the early twentieth century.

There is no space or planet grab nor is there air grab probably because there is no way to defend either nor are there early settlements to subjugate to a new owner's values.

JudeS · « **Reply #232 on:** October 23, 2012, 05:52:15 PM »

Babi

There are two words most folk use interchangeably but they are different.

Psycopath is a personality disorder characterised by shallow emotion, reduced fear,lacking empathy or guilt, superficial charm, ability to manipulate others and no visble concscious. These people usually live a parasitic life style and or a criminally directed life. Most Psycopaths are not violent and are rarely Psychotic.

Sociopath or Anti-social personality disorder---Mostly determined by actual behavioral patterns. Most criminals fit under this rubric. There are at least three times as many people with this disorder as those suffering from Psychopathology.

Some of the known factors leading to the antisocial personality are: Father or Mother incarderated for long periods of time, heavy duty physical punishment used on the child, little interaction between child and helpful adults and a disrupted family. life.

There is very little known about changing a Psychopaths life trajectory. Some work is done in prisons and out with antisocial people.Most woman having these tendencies are listed as Histrionic rather than anti-social.

JoanP · « **Reply #233 on:** October 23, 2012, 06:01:57 PM »

Quote

"Prospero is not at all happy."

Jonathan, do you think Shakespeare was happy with this work? This question has been on my mind since reading another post of yours several days ago.

Babi...I wondered if the nature/nurture expression was coined by Shakespeare. Looked it up and found -

"It has been reported that the use of the terms "nature" and "nurture" as a convenient catch-phrase for the roles of heredity and environment in human development can be traced back to 13th century France. Some scientists think that people behave as they do according to genetic predispositions or even "animal instincts." This is known as the "nature" theory of human behavior. Other scientists believe that people think and behave in certain ways because they are taught to do so. This is known as the "nurture" theory of human behavior."

JoanK - I've been thinking of your question - "do you think of the notion of Prospero and his magic representing England and its (relatively) advanced technology colonizing the world? If so, the statement above is the justification for treatment of the "natives".

It seems that Shakespeare's Prospero is speaking for the English colonists who found little success in attempts to tame the savage Indians, who did not respond to the advances of the civilized world. They would concur with the "nature theory" of human behavior. Shakespeare seems to believe this too in depicting Caliban.

There is such a strong resemblance to Strachey's account - "He depicted the new governor, Thomas Gates as a patient patriarch who abhorred violence but who was forced into the role of a wounded overseer resigned to delivering punishment. In Virginia, the killing of Blunt [ambushed by Indians] caused the conversion; in The Tempest it was brought on by Caliban's attempted rape of Miranda. In The Tempest, as in Virginia,the perceived recalcitrance of the indignenous person moves the interloper to use force instead fo the moderate persuasion he prefers." Hobson Woodward.

Do you think things have changed much today?

JoanK · « **Reply #234 on:** October 23, 2012, 08:42:13 PM »

"Do you think things have changed much today?"

That's a good question. We certainly like to think that they have. What do you all think?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #235 on:** October 24, 2012, 02:53:51 AM »

Found this Miranda, Ferdinand enchanted by the pastoral dance of the Goddesses conjured up by Prospero assumed to have been painted by George Romney, Britain late eighteenth to early nineteenth century.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #236 on:** October 24, 2012, 03:18:45 AM »

Should be in bed but started to read closer this act and it really takes you - more than the other chapters it is sorta dreamy - Some wonders of poetry I notice that Will uses to highlight a character so that we readers pays a bit more attention.

Dearly my delicate Ariel. Do not approach

And these few words are so expressive: white cold virgin snow

A few more alliterations

cold nymphs chaste crowns
dusky Dis my daughter got,
burthen bowing
conspiracy
Of the beast Caliban and his confederates

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #237 on:** October 24, 2012, 03:55:39 AM »

interesting so Hymn comes from Hymen - from Wikipedia

Quote

Hymen was supposed to attend every wedding. If he didn't, then the marriage would supposedly prove disastrous, so the Greeks would run about calling his name aloud. He presided over many of the weddings in Greek mythology, for all the deities and their children.

Hymen was celebrated in the ancient marriage song of unknown origin (called a Hymenaios) Hymen o Hymenae, Hymen delivered by G. Valerius Catullus. Both the term hymn and hymen are derived from this celebration

Frybabe · « **Reply #238 on:** October 24, 2012, 07:48:37 AM »

Quote

There is such a strong resemblance to Strachey's account - "He depicted the new governor, Thomas Gates as a patient patriarch who abhorred violence but who was forced into the role of a wounded overseer resigned to delivering punishment. In Virginia, the killing of Blunt [ambushed by Indians] caused the conversion; in The Tempest it was brought on by Caliban's attempted rape of Miranda. In The Tempest, as in Virginia,the perceived recalcitrance of the indignenous person moves the interloper to use force instead fo the moderate persuasion he prefers." Hobson Woodward.

Do you think things have changed much today?

Not really. Those that have the most power still try to bend their subjects or other countries to their will. Today, the more developed countries, especially, mostly use economic sanctions and trade agreements to "encourage" other countries to certain behaviors. Human rights issues and discouraging nuclear proliferation come to mind first. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

JoanP · « **Reply #239 on:** October 24, 2012, 08:17:12 AM »

Fry, is it because "sometimes" it works that the more civilized powers keep trying to bend those considered less civilized to their ways? Do we know anymore now than we did centuries ago what works and what doesn't? This is quite depressing to think about, isn't it? No wonder Prospero is overwrought about his futile efforts with Caliban. Maybe we'll see - before Act V is over - that some of what Prospero tried to impart took root in Caliban...

Another lovely painting by George Romney - who appears to be as taken with The Tempest as Shakespeare's audience was. Thanks, Barb.

I'm still wondering how satisfied Shakespeare was with this, his last work - The Tempest. He was only in his late 40's at this time. I wonder if he had decided before he began the play that it would be his last - or if he found it depressing and decided as he wrote that he was finished.

I'm moved each time I read these lines...

Quote

“Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded...

Wouldn't he be surprised to learn that this pageant has not faded - will probably never fade?

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Author Topic: Tempest, The ~ William Shakespeare ~ October Book Club Online (Read 64092 times)