Author Topic: Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online (Read 70457 times)

BooksAdmin · « **on:** November 11, 2012, 08:55:45 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

Ch 1 - 3	Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6	Nov 17-21	Now Discussing
Ch 7 - 8	Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12	Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15	Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18	Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall	Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?

Chapter 1.

What is a Hobbit?

Why might Gandalf want to add Bilbo to the dwarves' expedition?

Chapter 2.

Trolls are big and scary. What device does Tolkien use to make them less so for his younger readers?

Chapter 3.

Who is Elrond?

The swords that Gandalf and Thorin took from the trolls' horde are given names. Why is this important?

Is it unbelievable luck that Elrond sees the moon letters on the only day they can be read?

The book is studded with little songs. Do you like them? Do they add something?

Discussion Leaders: PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

PatH · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2012, 09:20:54 PM »

At last, we can get down to business. There's more to the book than just a simple children's story, isn't there. What's your reaction to it? What strikes you most strongly? Let's start down the Road.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #2 on:** November 12, 2012, 03:53:57 AM »

Till Later - just putting my things down to save a chair

Frybabe · « **Reply #3 on:** November 12, 2012, 07:46:05 AM »

Will be back this afternoon

JoanP · « **Reply #4 on:** November 12, 2012, 08:34:26 AM »

I'm a morning person - by afternoon I'm starting to panic about all of the things I've not accomplished on my to-do list...
So will probably be in early each day. There are so many things I look forward to hearing about from you -

I asked my granddaugher, who is 11 and her brother who is 8 if they ever read The Hobbit. They both said they heard about the movie, but not the book.

Quote

"There's more to the book than just a simple children's story, isn't there?"

Pat, I do agree with you. But will be reading the book to see what it is that would appeal to today's children too. I read that Tolkien intended to write this story to amuse his own children. Would it be a good gift for my grandchildren - who both loved Harry Potter? Do children read "The Hobbit" today - or is it primarily considered a book for BIG PEOPLE now? As I read the book, I'm going to try to read the story with the eyes and sensibilities of a child.

But oh, didn't you stop in your tracks at Tolkien's definition of a "respectable" adult...who "never had any adventures or did anything unexpected." Is that how children see us? Do they have any way of knowing that we have something "queer" in our make-up that just cannot come to terms with an adventureless future? I'm really looking forward to hearing how you feel about this?

majic · « **Reply #5 on:** November 12, 2012, 08:43:06 AM »

Yes, Pat the kids will enjoy it in my opinion, but of course my opinion is that of "an adult". I did read the Harry Potter series and like those books these advance by age with volume. If they read these at the ages you say they are, then move on into the LOTR series, they will find tales also grown with a degree of sophistication as they continue to read on.
I find them all much like Gulliver's Travels or Alice in Wonderland in that there is plenty of extra meaning that one gets out of them when reading past childhood.
I'M SO EXCITED TO GET STARTED!!!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #6 on:** November 12, 2012, 08:59:24 AM »

Couldn't help ruminate on the idea as we age we are all Hobbits - there is the one of us that we see in the mirror all wispy and white and then this other one that we know much better that we think we are who we have known since childhood and who may have aged but only to middle age.

And yes, without Mr Anderson even making the suggestion the first bit of description reminded me of the hidey-hoes in Wind in the Willows.

Babi · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2012, 09:37:57 AM »

Terrific start, PAT. We have so much to think about here. The genius it must take to write
a book that simultaneously amuses a child and fascinates an adult.

Oh, where to begin! I can remember the first time I read it, I was somewhat disappointed to
discover the 'hero' was a pudgy half-pint with furry feet! Not to mention the horror of
fourteen uninvited guests dropping in for tea...and supper...and an overnight stay with breakfast the next morning! This time, tho', I am prepared and enjoying every minute of it!

Tolkien does such a terrific job of describing everything. I have a vivid picture of Bilbo and
his cozy little burrow. I would have loved to visit there, tho' I imagine the furniture would be a bit small for me. Which does make me wonder how Gandalf managed. But then, he's a wizard, isn't he?

PatH · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2012, 12:52:48 PM »

JoanP, I'm guessing that your 8 year old grandchild would like The Hobbit, but the 11 year old might be in the stage of being very careful not to do or read anything "childish", in which case the phrases aimed at young children will put him/her off.

Barb, good way of putting our double nature. Bilbo's double nature is explained away by heredity: the respectable Baggins and the less respectable Took. The Baggins side is very much in control at the start. He even faints at the thought of a dangerous venture, and the next morning he he is firmly resolved not to go. Yet he does go, almost as if by accident. Why?

JudeS · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2012, 03:59:05 PM »

Pat
Why does Bilbo go? you ask.
The simple answer is that every odyssey begins with the hero "going" away. There is no adventure book without removal from safe and secure circumstances of home into the unknown.

If you wish an analysis of Bilbo's personality as to why he went- well I can't analyze him as yet since it is too early in the game. However the Elves are awaiting him. He is the "chosen" Hobbit. How flattering and exciting is that even for a rather sedentary 50 year old Hobbit who likes his creature comforts.
Would we really want to read about "The Hobbit Who Stayed Home"?
I doubt it.

hats · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2012, 05:26:57 PM »

No JudeS, a Hobbit who goes on an adventure is far more exciting to me. A Hobbit doesn't usually like adventures. Why not? Were they highly anxious, afraid of thunder and the crack of a twig? Or is it because you don't like what you haven't experienced? Along the way I'm trying to figure out my true feelings about going on adventures. Am I brave and foolhardy or a bit of a fraidy cat?

The Hobbit's door is round instead of rectangular. Is there a reason for the circular shape?

JoanK · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2012, 05:55:06 PM »

The Hobbit DOES go. To me, that is very life-affirming -- even those stick-in-the-muds like me who never do anything daring can feel a light of something else in there. that sense of the world being an adventure that we had as children doesn't completely die.

JoanK · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2012, 06:03:59 PM »

I've tried to read the Hobbit several times and always gave up. It was the flood of names and geneologies that got me. Even the objects have names! For someone like me, who struggles to remember names, it seemed like an impossible struggle.

i've decided to read it differently. What I didn't see was the music of his writing. Tolkein is someone who clearly loves the sound of words. Making up names for him is like making up tunes for a musician.

I love the flow of his words. I've decided to treat the names as part of the music, and let them flow over me. And If I get lost because I can't remember who anyone is, I have you all to lead me back on the road.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #13 on:** November 12, 2012, 06:12:37 PM »

What a great idea JoanK - to see the music in the words - I am almost wishing I had another copy of the book without all the annotations so I could read it through with the eyes of a child - may break down and get another copy.

I think we are all on an adventure - our life is an adventure - that to me is the definition of Hope - Hope is in the unknown - we hang onto Faith like a climbing rope or a buoy tied to a rope at sea while we deal with the adventure/Hope.

I do not think we love the unknown - we love what makes us feel safe, secure - what is understandable and so that says to me we love the rope that offers us that safety if we will only grab hold and we are trusting where the rope is attached which we believe to be attached to a secure location.

Round like the Round Table or the Wheel of Time - inside the house to me is how I see our interior selves and once we go through the door we are aware of our outer being in time and place. The 'chosen' one is so close to our Judea-Christian mythology - we have many who are chosen in the Bible.

Interesting we have round doors and later we know there is a ring that is featured in the story, also round.

JoanK · « **Reply #14 on:** November 12, 2012, 07:03:37 PM »

Apparently, others have noticed the similiarity of the hobbit's house to "the Wind in the Willows" Tolkien was a great admirer of "the Wind" and corresponded with the author's son. (I've lost y site).

But it looks like Bilbo's adventures will be quite different from those of rat and mole.And "the Wind" is really about the river (and the land). The land couldn't be more different so far in Hobbit: threatening and dangerous, with no sign of the river of life.

salan · « **Reply #15 on:** November 12, 2012, 07:47:45 PM »

I am wondering if I am reading the correct book. The front of the book says The Hobbit. The next page says, The Hobbit, There and Back Again. The first chapter is An Unexpected Party, the 2nd is Roast Mutton and the 3rd is A Short Rest. Is this the book we are reading?
Sally

PatH · « **Reply #16 on:** November 12, 2012, 08:46:15 PM »

Yes, Sally, that's it, and those are the three chapters we are starting with. You're definitely on the right page.

PatH · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2012, 09:09:17 PM »

About keeping names straight: one thing you don't have to do is keep the dwarves straight. You need to remember that Thorin Oakenshield is their leader, and that's it. Most of the others aren't really described; some are, like Fili and Kili, the young hotheads, and Bombur, the fat comic, but you still don't need to remember who's who.

Hats, I like your question about the round door. I hadn't thought about it before, but Tolkien had reasons for most things, and I bet there's one for that. Some ideas have been suggested, maybe we'll think of more.

Frybabe · « **Reply #18 on:** November 13, 2012, 07:48:35 AM »

Several things I noted while reading the first three chapters. I didn't remember Bilbo being around fifty. Elrond is of mixed race having elves and warriors (men?) in his ancestry. I confused Rivendell with the town occupied by men. Bilbo and company are still in the information gathering stage of their journey, at least up to the end of the third chapter.

Question: Is Elrond's house just a big house the group stayed at or is it an inn of some sort. It seems to me from the description that the house is used to entertaining guests often. It is set off a little way from the rest of the elvish town.

JoanP · « **Reply #19 on:** November 13, 2012, 07:51:40 AM »

How are you pronouncing Thorin's name when you read it? Does it remind you of the god of thunder in Norse mythology - pronounced "Tor"? Did Tolkien have him in mind when naming this dwarf leader? He is rather intimidating and doesn't seem to have much respect for our little hobbit, does he? The question is still before us - what does Gandalf see in Bilbo Baggins that others don't? Do you understand yet why the wise wizard has chosen him? Simply because of the Took ancestry?

Hats, an interesting question - about the round green door. Perhaps it is simply to underline the fact that a hobbit is part rabbit? The round door leads to the "rabbit hole"?

My granddaughter asked what a "hobbit" was...which led to a conversation that the word seems to be a combination of "hominum" - "man" and rabbit - which seems to describe our Bilbo Baggins...more a little man than rabbit, but a rabbit nonetheless. Maybe that's why Gandalf things he'd make a good burglar...his ability to penetrate walls with rabbit holes, gaining access, undetected. I can see the appeal for a child here.

JoanP · « **Reply #20 on:** November 13, 2012, 08:09:52 AM »

Good morning, Fry. We're posting together in real time this morning. Elrond is another interesting character - half "elf" and half hero" of the north in his ancestry. But it seems he's more "elf" - another little person...I'm seeing him now as a host, offering his hospitality in hopes that with Gandalf as their leader, the dwarves and little burglar will be able to put down the dreaded dragons that threaten. To say nothing of the Goblins who eat anything that comes their way. What do you think Tolkien has in mind with these divisions?

Jude, I can't analyse why Baggins left his cozy, comfortable home to go on this perilous adventure, but I can understand it on a personal level. I don't like to admit that I'm incapable of any more adventure in my life. No matter how comfortable I am now, if challenged, I wouldn't be able to refuse to face the fact that I'm over the hill. I'd accept the challenge - even though I'd be scared to death that I wouldn't know what to do. I'm enjoying watching BB accept each challenge as it comes his way...cheer him on. Even when he seems to be doing nothing, he's thinking of the best course of action before jumping in over his head. This part of the story appeals to me - the BIG PERSON. Not sure what grandson would think of him - used to more decisive action from his video game heroes...

hats · « **Reply #21 on:** November 13, 2012, 08:39:08 AM »

Thank you, PatH. I wanted to ask question badly. Thought it sounded silly to ask about the shape of the door. Thanks for taking the silly feeling away. Now I wonder about the color green. Green seems like a friendly color to me. Although many people relate the color green to jealousy. Why? So much in nature is green: grass, trees, leaves, stems, etc. Good morning all.

hats · « **Reply #22 on:** November 13, 2012, 08:43:41 AM »

Hi JoanP,

Just started reading your comment about the rabbit hole. I'm smiling. Exciting, I never would have thought....This is going to be so much fun.

Frybabe · « **Reply #23 on:** November 13, 2012, 08:54:16 AM »

Quote

Do you understand yet why the wise wizard has chosen him?

I don't know about understanding, but I can speculate. Bilbo has a strong sense of risk aversion, duty, and honesty that keeps the adventurous spirit in him from succumbing to recklessness and greed. Also, since he hasn't been on any other adventures, Bilbo hasn't formed a particular mind set or attitude towards the "people" or places he encounters.

hats · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2012, 09:43:53 AM »

Hi Frybabe,

To me Bilbo seems like a person who appreciates the talents of other people. I should say dwarves. He also likes their songs, smoke rings and I think he likes the fact that they enjoy his meal so much. Bilbo is a good servant too IMO. I thought of what Barbara wrote about "songs and music." Can't wait to read what Barbara writes about the songs and music.

I did see the word "jealous." Don't quite understand the sentence in which it's used.

Quote

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.

Would Bilbo like to be a dwarf???

Babi · « **Reply #25 on:** November 13, 2012, 09:53:12 AM »

We must bear in mind, tho', JUDE, that for a hobbit 50 years-old is just reaching maturity. I gather he was barely an adult!

I hadn't thought of it that way, JOANK, but you are so right. Tolkien's writing is lyrical, and I find his songs a delight. Watch for the change in tempo between, say, the song of a hobbit or elf, and those of the goblins.

As to why Gandalf chose Bilbo, so far I can only see that for some reason he needed a hobbit, and the Took bloodline
was the only one that might be persuaded to go. He started right in with stirring up the little hobbit, didn't he? A simple 'good morning' and he's demanding to know what he means. 'Good morning' is plain enough for anyone, but Gandalf lists at least three different, tho' unlikely, possibilities. I heartily approved Bilbo's calm response, "All of them at once", and adding, 'and a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain".

Gandalf then announces that he is there to find someone to share an adventure, and finding it very
difficult. Whereupon the Hobbit explains for us just how Hobbits regard 'adventure'. "Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!" Bilbo's naive idea of an adventure is anything that makes you late for dinner!

PatH · « **Reply #26 on:** November 13, 2012, 10:05:14 AM »

Hats, I don't think Bilbo would want to be a dwarf, but the song makes him feel the mindset of the dwarves. They love the beautiful things they make, and are jealous in that they don't like to share them. And I think you are right that the green door is about the greenness of nature.

Quote from: Frybabe on November 13, 2012, 08:54:16 AM

Bilbo has a strong sense of risk aversion, duty, and honesty that keeps the adventurous spirit in him from succumbing to recklessness and greed.

I think that in part, Gandalf chose Bilbo to be an antidote to the greed which is the dwarves' biggest fault.

hats · « **Reply #27 on:** November 13, 2012, 10:06:26 AM »

Babi, I liked the explanation about "good morning" too. After reading further I see that Gandalf thinks Bilbo will make a fierce warrior. I can't see that part of his personality at all especially after he lets out that big scream.

hats · « **Reply #28 on:** November 13, 2012, 10:08:05 AM »

PatH, thank you. I couldn't understand what he meant. Now with your explanation I get it. Wow, that is a hard sentence for me. Thank you again, PatH. I reread your explanation again. I understand it now. Never would have gotten it.

Frybabe · « **Reply #29 on:** November 13, 2012, 10:18:02 AM »

Quote

an antidote to the greed which is the dwarves' biggest fault.

Very good point, PatH: a counterpoint to the dwarves greed. I was looking inward while you took in the bigger picture.

JoanP · « **Reply #30 on:** November 13, 2012, 05:11:52 PM »

Quote

"Bilbo's naive idea of an adventure is anything that makes you late for dinner!"

That's funny, Babi. I'm looking forward to comparing this naive little hobbit to the "fierce warrior" who returns from this adventure. Not sure I believe this will happen...but Gandalf seems to believe it.

I remember reading that Tolkien wrote this for his two children - read it aloud to them. I'm not surprised that it sounds so rhythmic. Will try reading it aloud myself. Not just the songs... Love the image of our Annie taking turns reading it aloud with her David. I wonder too if Tolkien wrote it out loud...

One sad little observation got my attention -

Quote

"Not that Belladonna Took ever had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins."

Why do you suppose he wrote that? Do you think we'll ever know? It's as if she was a prisoner in a gilded cage...

hats · « **Reply #31 on:** November 14, 2012, 02:33:44 AM »

I can't imagine living in a gilded cage. Anyway, I want to thank all of you for having me. I got carried away posting yesterday. Didn't mean to hog the discussion, and worse yet with a lack of knowlege about Tolkien and novel. Felt excited to see you all again. Will come in now and then to read the posts. That's enough for me at this time. Glad you're all well. Please tell Ginny hello. Miss seeing Traude's name. Friends I will never forget.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #32 on:** November 14, 2012, 03:13:45 AM »

Please Hats be chatty - we love it - we are not on Twitter where we have to count our words - we are so pleased to see you post with us again - it is like old home week - this is a fun story with lots of imagery - I laugh and worry right along with the Hobbits don't you...

hats · « **Reply #33 on:** November 14, 2012, 04:18:51 AM »

Oh yes, I can see them with my mind's eye. Love the clothes worn by the dwarves. Didn't one have a blue beard?? Would love to know about Norway's mythology, Thorin's name. I'll bet it's a good story. Thanks Barb and all. I'll always remember when I first came here.

Frybabe · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2012, 07:14:58 AM »

Quote

"Not that Belladonna Took ever had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins."
Why do you suppose he wrote that? Do you think we'll ever know? It's as if she was a prisoner in a gilded cage...

JoanP, perhaps it is the notion that adventures are for the young and the single. After marriage, it's time to settle down. The Hobbit was first published in 1937. I think the notion that married women stay at home and be housewives still prevailed into the 50's.

PatH · « **Reply #35 on:** November 14, 2012, 08:24:24 AM »

Don't disappear, hats, you're doing exactly what makes a good discussion. One person asks a question, somebody knows the answer, and that starts people talking. Not everyone knows all the answers, but we all know something and contribute. As for not having read the book before, one thing I was hoping for was that people who hadn't read the book before would discover it and come to love it as I do.

PatH · « **Reply #36 on:** November 14, 2012, 09:22:33 AM »

Frybabe, it's funny about women in Tolkien's stories. There aren't any in The Hobbit, but there are plenty in The Lord of the Rings, and they are either totally domestic types or incredibly powerful--warriors, queens, leaders of their people. There's nothing in between.

hats · « **Reply #37 on:** November 14, 2012, 09:42:49 AM »

I would like to read LORD OF The RINGS by Tolkien with all of you, PATH. I have a copy of the book. It's a fat one. All of the volumes under one roof. Don't dare try it along.

Babi · « **Reply #38 on:** November 14, 2012, 09:49:19 AM »

I have to agree with you there, HATS. Bilbo as a 'fierce warrior' will be a major
change, indeed. He's such a gentle, retiring fellow. I was enchanted by Tolkien's
description of the Dwarves music. It must have been mesmerizing. And then, that
bewitching song. I have to think it played a part in awakening the 'Took' part of
Bilbo's heritage.

That was a somewhat sad observation, JOANP. Perhaps, tho', Belladonna had her great
adventure, and was quite ready to settle into the hobbit family life. I think Bilbo
is going to feel great relief when he at last returns to his own peaceful little home.

PATH, I think you touched on something important when you posted that women in LOTR
were either "totally domestic or incredibly powerful". I remember reading in one
commentary that Tolkien's creations were all of a specific type. All goblins were
alike, all dwarves, all wargs, etc. It begins to seem that only humans are variable,
widely differing individuals.

Oho! I have found myself a new and very appropriate phrase for those times of
frustration, and I plan to adopt it for my own use. "Confusticate and bebother..."
whatever it is.

majic · « **Reply #39 on:** November 14, 2012, 09:53:47 AM »

HATS
I'm so glad to hear you say that you're interested in reading LOTR with everyone!! I'm new here, but I was talking to a longtime member who most of you are unaware of (my mother). We were talking about how nice it would be if this lead into the reading of the other Tolkien books. She was trying to tell me to suggest it and now you have. Wonder what everyone else thinks about it?

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Author Topic: Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online (Read 70457 times)