Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins. Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland  Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

Ch 1 - 3	Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6	Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8	Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12	Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15	Dec 2-5	Now Discussing
Ch 16 - 18	Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall	Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 9.

1. After the dwarves (and invisible Bilbo) have been captured by the Wood elves, why does Bilbo say "I am like a burglar that can't get away, but must go on miserably burgling the same house day after day."

2. How do the dwarves respond to Bilbo's efforts? Do you think their perceptions of Bilbo are part of Gandalf's reasons for leaving them?

3. What were some of the key steps in Bilbo and the dwarves' escape from the dungeons of the Wood elves?

Chapter 10.

1. As the group floats toward the Long Lake, Bilbo is able to see the Mountain. What are his impressions of it?

2. What does it mean that "Bilbo had come in the end by the only road that was any good"?

3. How does Thorin take charge in Lake Town?

4.  What is the reaction of the Lake Town men to the dwarves? Why? How have they learned about the possible mission of the dwarves?

5. What is the reaction of the King of the Wood elves?

Chapter 11.

1. What are some symbols of magic that appear in this chapter?

2. What else did you think was important?

Chapter 12.

1. What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?

2. How are the dwarves characterized?

3. Describe the "bravest thing" that Bilbo ever did.

4.  How is Smaug, the dragon, and his hoard described?

5. What did Bilbo take from Smaug and how did  he respond?

6. With the dwarves looking to Bilbo for advice and leadership every step of the way, do you see evidence of Bilbo's growing self-confidence? Development of a philosophical side?

7. What are some key events that you think important in this chapter?

 

Discussion Leaders:  PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

[PatH]

Thanks for the blog, mabel1015j.  I think I'll at least lurk.

Judy, it seems to me that the fairy story aspect gets particularly intense in Chapter 8 (flies and spiders), and not always to good effect.  We start out with two common fairy story elements--the spectral hunt, and the river of forgetfulness.  They both add to the creepy feeling of the woods, but seem kind of irrelevant to the story.  The elves' disappearing feast is another fairy story bit, but it is totally relevant, since it lures them from the path, and the elves capture Thorin.

[BarbStAubrey]

I thought for sure I would find more explanation as to why warriors display trophy fashion their conquests - is it to scare away the enemy or what - so far all I find is it is a practice that goes back to Homer and it is a problem among troops in Afghanistan.

In Homer's epics, warriors always tried to bring home the armour and weapons of opponents they killed, while their late foes' comrades would try to retrieve them. Thus in The Iliad there is a big fight for the arms of Patroclus, which is ultimately won by Hector. The Odyssey mentions the dispute between Ajax and Odysseus for the right to Achilles' arms, after the two had brought Achilles' body back to the Greek camp after Achilles' death.

[marcie]

JoanP, I love that illustration of Mirkwood, (only it doesn't look scary to me). The description and the atmosphere in the book make it VERY scary and oppressive. Yes, Bilbo didn't recognize that the tree he climbed was in a kind of valley so that there was no way to see above and beyond the trees that surrounded it. You are right that the mistake gave him the opportunity to show how resourceful and courageous  he could be. It's nice to find out that he has skills that we haven't been told about (such as throwing rocks with great accuracy!)

Babi, The attercop and Tomnoddy song is so much fun.

Pat, I appreciate your explaining the meaning of some of those words. They are fun on their own but it's interesting that they have greater significance than their sound.

[PatH]

Hats, are you still traveling along with us?  How was your Thanksgiving?

[PatH]

But look what Bilbo would have missed - the realization that he is a fiercer, bolder person than he knew...that he is capable of more than blowing smoke rings, cooking bacon and deciphering riddles...

I'm glad you brought this up, JoanP.  The battle with the spider is an important turning point for Bilbo, and we should talk about it some.

Someone said it's best to read it out loud.  I agree with that! 

That was JoanK.

[Babi]

 How neat, PAT. I didn't find either word in my dictionary, and my book doesn't
have that helpful note. Cobweb... Now I'm trying to think of any 'lob' connection
to spiders.

 I hadn't thought of it before, JUDE, but the human characters are very few in
this book, aren't they? I was thinking, at one point, that this might be a
characteristic of 'middle earth'.  There is a reference to an earlier, more
glorious, era. So I find myself noticing references that might have survived to
a later earth. Animals, plants, etc. that still survive.

 Ah, yes, thank you, JOANP. I knew there was something. And of course, it had to
happen so the story could develop as it did. So that Bilbo could develop as he
did. I really think Gandalf wanted them to stay on the path. He had no reason
to think they could survive leaving it.

  Oh, dear, JEAN. I can't imagine Bilbo, or the character in black in the rear that I
take to be Thorin, to look at all like that. Where is Bilbo's little round belly?
And standing next to Gandalf, the 'dwarf' is much too tall. I hope this isn't
going to distract me from enjoying the film.

   

[PatH]

Babi, I had the same reaction both to the blog picture and the New Zealand Air film.  The hobbits look too skinny and tall, and so do the dwarfs.  We'll have to hope for the best.  Jackson did very well in LOTR.  You can make actors look shorter with camera tricks.  The actor who played the dwarf Gimli (he's the son of the Gloin who is in this book) is actually pretty tall--I've seen him elsewhere.  And Gollum is very well done.  He is described inconsistently in the books, but the movie figure fits the most common description.

Ooops, JoanP, I mixed up credits.  JoanK said how rhythmical the writing was, but you suggested reading it aloud.

[marcie]

Babi, yes, it's often that characters I imagine in a book are not like the actors cast in a film but sometimes, I'm able to accept them and enjoy the film version too. An interesting cast for the film.... Martin Freeman (Dr. Watson in BBC's "Sherlock Holmes") as Bilbo and Benedict Cumberbatch (Sherlock) as Smaug, the dragon.

Pat, yes, I think that it is worth spending some more time on the fight with the spiders. It's Bilbo's first opportunity to display life-or-death bravery when the great spider tries to tie him up and Bilbo fights him off and kills him with his sword. It's also the event that causes Bilbo to name his sword.

"The spider lay dead beside him, and his sword-blade was stained black. Somehow the killing of the giant spider, all alone by himself in the dark without the help of the wizard or the dwarves or anyone else, made a great difference to Mr. Baggins. He felt a different person, and much fiercer and bolder in spite of an empty stomach, as he wiped his sword on the grass and put it back into its empty sheath. 'I will give you a name,' he said to it, 'and I will call you Sting.'"

Even in the description, we get some of Tolkien's good sense of  humor with his references to Bilbo's empty stomach. I guess hobbits are always thinking of food.

[JoanP]

But, they go hand in hand, don't they?  You can  hear the rhythm in the writing when you read it out loud... It's almost begging to be read aloud.

Marcie, that's funny - Tolkien's own illustration of Mirkwood doesn't seem as forbidding as his description did in the writing.  I think it was the oppressive silence that impressed me most...the silence on the path, with the rumbling, rustling noises in the darkness off the path.  Did you notice when they left the path, the growth was all tangled with the thick webs, that made it difficult to move around...but the path had been miraculously free of those webs.  Did that puzzle you?  Made me wonder who had prepared the path for the dwarves...or who was protecting them, as long as they stayed on the path, of course.

The dwarves left the path because they were starving.  Bilbo was starving too...I noticed he followed the dwarves when they left it.  Not sure he would have done that if the decision had been left up to him.  At this point, the dwarves don't have respect for his opinion.  But after his courage and valor fighting the spiders, everything has changed. 

I was thinking he was going to tell the dwarves about the ring...but he really didn't do that, did he?

[marcie]

JoanP, yes, it seems that like the area where the Wood-elves had their feasts, the path has some magic about it that keeps the spiders and other bad things away.

The dwarves do seem to know about the ring now. After Bilbo cuts them all down from their cocoons in the tree, he has to disappear in order to save them all. "In the end Bilbo could think of no plan except to let the dwarves into the secret of his ring. He was rather sorry about it but it could not be helped. [my note: the ring seems to be exerting its power over him in that Bilbo is sorry to have to tell them about it]. 'I am going to disappear,' he said. I shall draw the spiders off, if I can...." It was difficult to get them to understand, what with their dizzy heads, and the shouts, and the whacking of sticks and the throwing of stones; but at last Bilbo felt he could delay no longer-- the spiders were drawing their circle ever closer. He suddenly slipped on his ring and, to the great astonishment of the dwarves he vanished."

After the spiders finally give up the chase, the dwarves respect for Bilbo had grown immensely. "Knowing the truth about the vanishing did not lessen their opinion of Bilbo at all; for they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and a magic ring-- and all three are very useful possessions."

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder Marcie do you think the path represents the straight and narrow as in how we are advised to live our life - it appears only by being adventurous and getting off the path are there encounters that allowed Bilbo personal growth and so all the advise about staying on the path along with the safety the path afforded is baffling.

And yes JoanP the graphic of the forest does not seem scary - a beautifully done typical 1930s illustration of trees and roots - however, I remember seeing one of my first movies in 1938 with my mother and kid sister - we saw Snow White and there were times we were crying so hard my mother had to take us out of the viewing area and then when we returned anytime we thought it would be scary we hid our faces in my mothers arms. Where as today I do not see the youngest child of 2 or 3 showing any signs of being frightened by the witch  or Snow White being lost in the forest. And so it may be the illustration in the 1930s appeared scary to children that today we see as a lovely ink drawing.

If the spiders represent destiny than how lovely - Bilbo would have fought his destiny and come out a fiercer and bolder Bilbo rather than the homebody content to sit by his cottage and smoke his pipe - this is the first encounter we do not hear him talk about his longing for home. They sure are a hungry lot - for just about every encounter they are soooo hungry.

[PatH]

I'm glad JoanP found that Mirkwood illustration; I didn't have a lot of luck finding illustrations to post.  Tolkien did a number of illustrations for his books, and the Hobbit ones are supposed to be his best.  They are all somewhat stylized, like the book cover and Mirkwood, but they give us a notion of how Tolkien saw things.  Beorn's hall looks like a Norse mead-hall; it could have come straight out of Beowulf.  Unfortunately, he didn't draw the characters much.  The only drawing of Bilbo is so tiny that you can't make much of it.

[marcie]

Barbara, it's possible that the path is the "straight and narrow." As the narrator said before, he's not going to describe what happens in much detail when all is going well (if they stay on the path). It's only when "adventure" happens that we get to hear the story!

Is this the tiny Bilbo drawn by Tolkien, Pat? http://www.bodleianshop.co.uk/bilbo-woke-up-with-the-early-sun-in-his-eyes-poster.html

The eagle is large but Bilbo is miniscule. You can enlarge it a bit by holding your mouse over the picture.

Here is another illustration by Tolkien... of Bilbo's  home: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/sep/21/bilbo-baggins-75th-anniversary

Wow, did you read this? "Only a small selection of the hundreds of drawings done by Tolkien were included in the original edition of The Hobbit, and although the artwork, held by the Tolkien estate, has since been published in a special edition book – with a sneak peak on the Guardian website – it has never received widespread publication."

[PatH]

That one with the eagle is the one I referred to.  With the zoom, you can actually see Bilbo.  The one of his home is new to me, and shows him quite clearly.  Thanks, Marcie.

[marcie]

We're moving now to chapters 9-12 but we can continue to talk about anything in previous chapters. The "adventure" part of the adventure has started in the last chapter and now we're in for more. Bilbo and his relationship with the dwarves is changing.

After the dwarves (and invisible Bilbo) have been captured by the Wood elves, why does Bilbo say "I am like a burglar that can't get away, but must go on miserably burgling the same house day after day."

[JoanP]

Can you imagine what it was like to have Tolkien as a father - spinning such bedtime yarns as these?  The boys must have had wild dreams - and nightmares!  I imagine the drawings came later when the tales were published.

Bilbo may have discovered that he is bolder than he thought...found his courage - but is he happy?   He can't leave the dwarves, so in a sense, he's captive too.  He needs to burgle the elf house for food, day after day, which he was able to do - as Mr. Invisibility.
He's regretting that they didn't heed Beorn's advice - and Gandalf's - wishes they had never left the path- the straight and narrow.  Not only is he alone, the only one not captured by the Wood elves...but he is struck with the realization that if anything was to happen...he would have to do it - "alone and unaided."  It's lonely being responsible, having every one rely on you.  Gandalf would recognize this feeling.

I notice he's wishing himself back by the fireside in his hobbit hole again, Marcie.

About that ring...I have to say that I was surprised that the dwarves showed so little interest in the little ring when Bilbo told them about it.  They were smithies.. dwarves probably crafted this ring at one time, don't you think?  I can't believe that he actually showed them the ring...but did explain to the dwarves that he was able to become invisible because he found something that made this possible.  Does his courage rely on the ring?  On the ring alone?  What if he loses it?  Or gives it to Thorin?  Would he then lose the respect of the other dwarves?

[JoanP]

The description of the Elvenking's crown of berries and red leaves reminded me that it is early Autumn, and I thought of Elron's translation of the runes on Thorin's grandfather's map...  that light will shine on the little keyhole to the treasure when the last light of Durin's Day will shine on it.  I made a note that Durin's Day is first day of the dwarves' new year - which falls on the first day of the last moon of Autumn.  

I found this illustration - the king doesn't jive with my mental image of an elf...but then...I don't know what elves look like.  I wonder if Tolkien left any drawings of him.  My interest centered on the crown of berries and red leaves, which tell us that the end of Autumn is near...

This is how the king was protrayed in the 1977 film of The Hobbit -

[Babi]

 MARCIE, I think that genius for understatement is one of the things I enjoy
most about Tolkien's humor. "..they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and
a magic ring-- and all three are very useful possessions."  'Useful', indeed!

 The 'straight and narrow' is a very basic tenet in raising the young. I can readily
believe Tolkien intended it as one of his 'lessons'. But it's also a basic with
the young that they are going to stray off the path on occasion, and learn the
lesson the hard way. So I don't see it as baffling, BARB.

 I'm must say I didn't care for the illustration of Bilbo. (The one in his home) It
does not seem to me to fit the written description of him. What happened to the fat
stomach, the feet covered with curly brown hair, and the long brown fingers?

JOANP, the first illustration fits my romantic ideas of elves much better than the
second. There are two very different versions of the mythology of elves. Tolkien is
presenting one of them. The other version presents them as small, troublesome tricksters,
more like my idea of gremlins.

  Well, here are the dwarves, captives again!  I would say that Balin certainly needs to learn a bit of diplomacy, particularly if one is under arrest in someone else's country!   Still, in my ideal, elves are supposed to be wise.  I was surprised when the Elvenking did not accept the rather obvious fact that the dwarves did NOT attack them, but were simply tired, hungry and  seeking aid.  Elves are supposed to offer these things.  So different from Elrond's welcome.
    Each one in a separate cell.  That's 12 cells, right?  Doesn't that seem like a rather large dungeon for a community of wood-elves?  ( You can see that I have a great many pre-conceptions of how elves are supposed to behave. )

 

[marcie]

It looks like we each have our own conceptions of elves and dwarves.... and wizards too, I suspect. (I kept thinking that Gandalf should have more power than he showed. Why couldn't he make all of the wolves disappear or turn them to stone or something when he and the dwarves were caught up in the trees)?

Babi, I get the feeling that dwarves don't have a very good reputation among the Wood-elves. The elves think of them as thiefs. The dwarves don't explain why they are in the Wood-elves territory. In fact, they do plan to burgle the dragon's lair, though the dwarves do believe that much of that property belonged to them in the first place.

[PatH]

The first elf picture fits my notion of their looks.  Elves are more fully described in LOTR, and they aren't little, they're tall and graceful, mostly with dark hair and grey eyes, though some have golden hair.

I just found a site with a lot of Tolkien's pictures.

http://www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/g23/the-elven-king-apos-s-gate-j-r-r-tolkien

This puts you in the middle.  You can see the rest with "previous image" and "next image" at the bottom of the pictures, but if you go too far, you get pictures by other artists.

[JoanK]

They're starting to show promos for "The Hobbit" on TV here. Boy, I sure hope the acting is better in the rest of the movie than in the promo. I wouldn't wait with bated breath for this one!

[BarbStAubrey]

ah such a handsome elfin king in the first picture - not just his face but his presence and the crown of berries and the embroidery on his shirt - just wonderful.

And yes, I do find it baffling - because we know that wisdom and becoming an effective adult happens by having adventures rather than staying on the straight and narrow - the straight and narrow pleases adults when you are a child but does not prepare you to be creative or use your wits - the boy / girls thing again, where we are delighted telling stories of boys who waver off the straight and narrow and sharing all their exploits but we still show disapproval when girls go into the forests.

It annoys me to no end with someone is taking off on a trip and folks say, be safe or be careful rather than, have a great trip or we know you'll have a great trip, or even, practice your best wits, let us know when you arrive, we want to hear all about it, if you get stuck just call.

I am seeing the ring like a talisman or like carrying an emblem that reminds you of your strength as some folks carry a medal or a rosary or they wear a signet ring from the school they graduated - not just in pride but it represents something they either accomplished or a connection to their faith - I think the ring may be Bilbo's talisman that reminds him of his first act of courage leaping over Gollum as well as its magic properties. And like all our personal talisman's they are of little interest to others because they cannot tap into the feelings of what the talisman represents. And so I am thinking the elves have their own issues and worries and as long as Bilbo can help that is all that matters.

[JudeS]

Barb
You are so good and positive and approving in your opinion of Bilbo I feel really bad disagreeing. But I will..just a bit.

You compare the Invisibility Ring to a class ring or a medal or a rosary. These are symbolic items.  The Ring that Bilbo found and hasn't told anyone about, does actual activity. It is a ring that makes you invisible . This is analagous to the invisibility cloak in Harry Potter. These items have serious magical powers . They are not symbolic items carried for comfort or as a reminder of strength.
The fact that he hasn't shared this powerful item with anyone shows something about his character too. All is not as simple as it seems. What it shows is still not clear. I am not sure that Bilbo's other name is" perfection" or "braveheart".

[marcie]

JoanK, I know what  you mean about the trailer for The Hobbit film. It doesn't exactly suck me into the world of Bilbo the way the book has but I do think (hope) that I'll enjoy it...likely on DVD since I don't go to the movies much.

Thanks for the link to the Tolkien pictures site, Pat. I love his drawings.

Barbara, that's an interesting idea about the ring being, at least in part, a talisman for Bilbo. Jude, you bring up some good points, especially about the character of Bilbo in relation to the ring. The ring does seem to have serious magic in the power it holds over the possessor of the ring. Who/what is possessing whom? Could the ring turn Bilbo into another Gollum?

At this point in the adventure, though, the ring seems to be crucial to the safety of Bilbo and possibly his freedom and that of the dwarves.  Bilbo is in the dungeon of the Wood elves and able to go about somewhat freely while being sure not to cast a shadow or make noise or bump into anyone.  He's spending some of his time exploring and locating all of the dwarves. How are the dwarves responding to Bilbo's efforts?

[BarbStAubrey]

ah so magic - yep, I believed when I was a kid - in some ways still believe - yep, every year we put out our shoes with some hay and a carrot along with our note and - what do you know - our shoes, that we wore everyday became the thing that brought magic and so we cried and cried when it was time to get new shoes - ok you are all smiling now - this is all said in flighty, smiley, irony laced with childhood memories - but with a smattering of truth -

For years when I travel I always wear my lucky shirt and no plane crashes or auto accidents in aaaalll these years as I take my annual trek to North Carolina - yep, and the one time I taped up the front door so the wind would not blow it open while I was gone is the only time someone took the boxes I had delivered and arrived before I got home - that is a Fung shui -

Yep, I believe - a talisman can be magic as long as we think it is magic and watch that no one sees our shadow or hears us or of course sees us - we can move like the wind just like the mice when they get into the garage - never do see them but oh you can smell them - hmmm wonder if Bilbo has a distinct hobbit scent...      

[Babi]

 MARCIE, I'm firmly convinced that Gandalf does have more power than he is revealing.
But like a wise man, he prefers to keep some surprises in store for times of need.
I strongly suspect that he was throwing fire, while at the same time secretly
calling for the eagles.
   You have a point; the dwarves really should have given a sound reason for being
there at all. Balin's big mouth probably had a lot to do with the treatment they
received.

 Thanks for that link, PAT. My edition had the first two illustrations, but not the
'Mountain King's Gate". Impressive. It enabled me to picture how the dwarves set up
their defenses.

 All the same, BARB, how would you feel if you got many  more wounds than you needed
to, because your elders never warned you?  I once said to my Dad that "I want to make
my own mistakes."  He replied, "You'll make plenty. Let me keep you from a few."

 

How are the dwarves responding to Bilbo's efforts?

  Typically, I would say, MARCIE.
Complaining, as usual. Some resentment and mockery thrown in.   I wonder that Bilbo
doesn't just leave the dwarves, with their constant complaining.  It's their mission,
after all. Bilbo keeps bailing them out of trouble, and they keep complaining about how
he does it. After a 'thank you', of course,  and  a 'your servant, sir'. I was so pleased when Bilbo finally said, "Very well!  Come along back to your  nice cells, and I will lock you all in again,  and you can sit there comfortably and think of a better plan - .."

[JoanP]

Nearly all of the illustrations we're seeing by Tolkien are landscapes, aren't they?  Very few of the dwarves, elves, hobbits.  It's almost as if he's providing the stage, but leaving the characters to the imagination of the reader.  I did find this one hobbit drawing - trying to figure out if it is a drawing of Bilbo by Tolkien himself, or just included in the newly released book - The Art of the Hobbit - The line drawing does suggest Tolkien's style, doesn't it?

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/09/22/j-r-r-tolkiens-illustrations-for-the-hobbit-slideshow/

[JoanP]

"I wonder that Bilbo doesn't just leave the dwarves, with their constant complaining."

 Babi, do you really think that Bilbo has that much courage, even with the magic ring, to leave the dwarves in the Wood elves' prison cells and go off on his own? Or too  much of a sense of responsibility to leave them?  Pretty clever the way he gave them a choice...either get in those barrels and float out of the prison...or go back to their cells.  He knew they'd have to follow his plan. Let's add this cleverness to the growing list of his new-found abilities.

Barb - I'm going to have to go with the "magic" theory.  He became invisible when wearing that ring.  That can't be explained by anything other than magic...or can it?  The confidence and realization of his abilities are due to his own courage in the face of impossible odds.  The ring has come in handy in tight situations...but I don't see him relying on it.

I've a map - Thorin's father's map - in the front of my paperback.  The places on the map are familiar - it seems they are nearing the Lonely Mountain.  I'm wondering if by going through the Elf king's property they haven't saved time.  What was the original plan had they followed the path through Mirkwood? Was the plan to go around it?  Notice the air getting chillier now.  Must be coming through Autumn, don't you think?

[PatH]

I'm glad you mentioned the map, JoanP.  I like Tolkien's drawings very much, but I have issues with his maps.  They often aren't very clear, they're geographically unlikely, and the reproductions in some books are fuzzy, making it harder to make sense of them.  Thror's map doesn't look muddy, but when you try to match it up with the other map, you realize that it's pointing a different way; north is at the left, and east is at the top of the map.  (Tolkien said somewhere that he was following the dwarfish convention.)  And although there is a hand pointing to the back door, it's not clear exactly what the hand is pointing to.

[marcie]

Babi, it seems that the dwarves are automatically going to Bilbo for a plan and a way out of the dungeons. He's become their leader, although that doesn't stop them, as you say, from complaining.

JoanP and PatH, I'll have to take another look at the map. I can read street maps but I admit that I am geographically challenged. I always tend to turn in the opposite direction from where I parked my car or I want to get on the freeway going north if I am unfamiliar with the city when I am supposed to go south.

[Babi]

 Ah, good. In this illustration I can see the little rounded tummy. More hair on the legs
than the feet, tho'.  The face simply seems too ordinarily human. I have such a vivid
picture in my mind of Bilbo, and I prefer it to this one.

 That same quandary was in my mind, JOANP. If Bilbo did decide to go home, how could he
make it alone? 

 PATH, seeing it's all fantasy, I suppose 'geographically unlikely' could be acceptable.
I did find it a bit exasperating, trying to figure out the movements of men, elves, etc.
as they closed in on the mountain. I think that first map could be a sort of guideline to
the different places, scenes,etc. that Tolkien planned to develop in his tale. A sort of
rough sketch.

 The dwarves are relying more on Bilbo, MARCIE. It seems to me most of the dwarves are
followers. Good fighters, ready to follow orders, etc.  Fully exercising the soldiers
right to gripe. But not up to planning strategy. Thorin should be their 'general', but
that doesn't seem to be his strong suit. Perhaps we should think of him as 'the king'
in need of a good general...like Gandalf. Or now, Bilbo.

  In any case, they do get away and arrive alive, if somewhat battered and half-drowned, at
the lake town.   Ah, another warm reception,  with food, comfort, fresh clothes and comfortable beds.  Rest and restoration.  The mayor things it's all a con,  but the majority of the citizens think this is the wonderful fulfillment of a legend.  And who knows...if the dwarves really do slay a dragon and bring out treasure, the mayor will be sure he gets a good share of it.  For the first time,  our adventurers are dealing with the species mankind.  Actually,  the over-all reaction sounds quite believable.


   

[JoanP]

This may be way too big to post.  Clearly the dwarves...and Bilbo...are nearing the Lonely Mountain...as the leaves have fallen, the air gets chillier and autumn comes to an end...

[JoanP]

"What does it mean that "Bilbo had come in the end by the only road that was any good"?

Wasn't their imprisonment in the Elvenking's castle fortunate, after all?  Was it just luck that Bilbo had found the only way out ...the river, the only road not flooded.    That water is cold!  The little hobbit is soaking wet the whole way, not packed in straw as the dwarves were.  Couldn't you feel it?  That took more than courage...it took fortitude!  How would the dwarves have been freed from those crates if Bilbo had not been free to to get them out?  
At first I thought that Gandalf had something to do with their survival, but now we learn that he has just been informed of the flooded pathways - and is on his way to help.  Won't he be surprised when he learns that Bilbo has managed to get them on the way to the Lonely Mountain in time for Durin's Day?

Were you proud of Thorin as he stormed into the Master's feast and announced his ancestry, Babi?  Not that the Master fully believed him.  Both the Master of Men and the Elvenking have adapted a wait-see attitude.

So they are ready to move on - to slay the dragon...unarmed still?  Marcie, do you think the dwarves will continue to go to Bilbo for a plan?  Is he still their learder or will they now look to Thorin for leadership?

Things are looking good for the dwarves' quest. Remember that Bilbo still has the ring in his possession...and "Sting" hidden in his pants.  Oh, and Gandalf on the way too...

Do you think the revelation that  Fili and Kili are Thorin's first cousins will be important?  Do you suppose the other ten dwarves are also related?

[marcie]

Babi and JoanP, it seems to me too that the dwarves rely on Bilbo, the planner and decision maker while, as you say Babi, "fully exercising the soldiers right to gripe." They've entrusted themselves to Bilbo because of the good judgement and courage that he's shown so far, as well as good luck and magic.

JoanP, it seems that even Gandalf and Beorn didn't know the conditions of the eastern edge of the elf road, due to recent floods and earthquakes. It seems to be sheer luck that Bilbo brought the dwarves, in barrels, on the only road (the river) that was open.

Joan, I too thought it a nice change that Thorin announced himself and his group with such command at the Master's feast. It looks like when it comes to his ancestry, property and traditions, Thorin is in his "element." As you indicate, the Master thinks it's a con but many of the townspeople believe that the old songs about the river turning to gold with the return of the dwarves. It's possible that all of the dwarves are related. I'm not sure yet of the significance of the relationships, except that Thorin is the son of Thráin II, the King of Durin's Folk in their exile from Erebor, and the grandson of King Thrór.

The group now sets out on the last stage of their journey which takes them to the Mountain and the doorstep of the dragon's lair. What is the atmosphere of the Desolation of the Dragon? What are some of the symbols of magic  you noticed in this section?

[marcie]

It looks like we may have lost a few of us dwarves along the path.     We're getting to the exciting part of finally meeting the dragon! Are you still catching up with the reading? Are we going too fast?

[Babi]

Thorin announcing his ancestry was a very dramatic scene, JOAN. The master, a true
politician, is all smiles, inward cynicism, and a resolve to profit from the situation
one way or another.  Oh, I do hope we see him eventually get his 'come-uppance'. Were
Fili and Kili cousins?  I was thinking they were nephews. Either way, they would be
doubly bound and loyal to Thorin.

  What about the associations made with ravens and crows, MARCIE?  The crows are
associated with gloomy thoughts.  The ravens are praised as messengers.  The crows, like
buzzards, follow armies to feast on the dead.  Wouldn't ravens do the same?  Both birds
appear in various traditions.
  This looks like a good summary on the subject:  http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/p/The-Magic-Of-Crows-And-Ravens.htm

[JoanP]

Still reading Marcie...early part of Chapter XII. Can't believe we're going inside to meet the Dragon.  I'm guessing that he won't be home when the dwarves get inside.

Thorin introduced  Kili and Fili as sons of his father's daughter.  So you're right, Babi - they would be Thorin's nephews then.  I noticed that Thorin selected them to reconnoiter - along with Balin, who had been in this place with him  before.  Also noticed that Bilbo wasn't asked, he just went along with them.  Was it  assumed that he would go with Thorin?

Bilbo is the only one with spirit as they go deeper into the gloom. He studies the Thorin's map.   He's the one who makes them continue to search for the door when the dwarves are ready to turn back.  And when they find the door - with no keyhole, the others give up when their tools break into pieces as they try to break it down.

So how did they finally break down the wall?  Was magic really involved?  Or was it Bilbo's perseverence, sitting on the doorstep thinking, watching the setting sun and the rays of the rising moon shining on the keyhole?

And what did the thrush who ate snails have to do with it?  Is a thrush a crow or a raven, Babi?  What does his presence mean here?

ps More than once, I find myself wondering why Bombur was included in this company.  He is really a handicap, isn't he?
 

[JoanP]

What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?

I've a note in the annotated copy -

"Third time pays for all" is a medieval proverb, a notable use of which occurs in Sir Gawain and the Green knight."

The annotation says are three appearances of the proverb in The Lord of the Rings" and quotes a letter from Tolkein dated July 31, 1964 on the usage:

"It is an old alliterative saying using the word "time" ...this third occasion is the best time - the time for special effort and/or luck.  It is used when a third occurrence may surpass the others and finally prove a man's worth, or a thing's."

When reading Tolkien's words, "the time for special effort and/or luck" I thought again about Bilbo's success - was it due to his special effort - or luck?

[PatH]

I found a good drawing of the Lonely Mountain that elaborates the map JoanP posted, showing the Back Door clearly, and the camps the party made.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Back_Door

And this is the set of drawings we already have, but going directly to the Front Door picture to make it easy to compare.

http://www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/g23/the-lonely-mountain-j-r-r-tolkien