Author Topic: Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online (Read 70416 times)

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #240 on:** December 05, 2012, 02:29:56 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

Ch 1 - 3	Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6	Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8	Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12	Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15	Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18	Dec 6-9	Now Discussing
Ch 19 and overall	Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?

Chapter 16.

1. What plan does Bilbo carry out?

2. What are Bilbo's motives?

3. How does Gandalf react to Bilbo?

4. Is it true that defeat may glorious? If so, what makes it glorious?

Chapter 17.

1. What is Thorin's reaction to the "new tidings" brought by Bard and the Elvenking? What does he promise? Do you think he intends to keep his agreement? Do all of the dwarves agree with Thorin?

2. What happens to Bilbo?

3. After Dain and his army of dwarves arrives and the battle is about to be enjoined, what warning does Gandalf have for everyone that causes them to band together?

4. How are many of them saved? If there is a war of good against evil, who is on which side? How is the role of nature portrayed during these chapters?

5. Where is Bilbo during the fighting?

Chapter 18.

1. After the battles, what is Thorin's appraisal of Bilbo?

2. Who accompanies Bilbo on the roads home?

3. What treasures are given to Bilbo and what does he do with some of them? What parting gift did Bilbo give the Elvenking en route home? Does it seem reasonable to you? Why or why not?

Discussion Leaders: PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

ohhh they are wings! thanks so much JoanP for posting the art work - there was a small copy in the book I am reading and I thought it was a pen point and gave up trying to figure it all out...

Jude I've been reviewing trying to nail further your question and up to where we are reading it appears to me Bilbo's adventure is simply like many of us, an adventure that is just part of living without any motive to accomplish something in particular - I think we all go through a phase in our life where something is thrown at us and we struggle with all sorts of demons to come out of a personal spiral. Part of what we do is to look at our heritage and use the examples of others in the family who we know had faced some serious life experiences - I think Bilbo looks to define himself and realized he has some Tuck heritage which helps him go forward.

I see that Thorin only had his agenda after he started the adventure and they met Elrond and so maybe something will come up for Bilbo that makes this adventure more focused as a personal quest for him -

As to the Dragon, I see him because of the early and terrible war between Dragons and Goblins, as so many soldiers when they are spiritually wounded they make up for their inner emptiness by accumulating - some accumulate women or get numb on drink or drugs or they accumulate treasure - the plunder is probably like Beorn had his dead enemy on poles in front of his house - we read how soldiers still take from their enemy as they walk through a battle area - plus, any ancient army that I ever read about were only paid in the plunder they could take with them after winning a battle. Yes, I see Smaug with human qualities.

War is usually described in heroic terms but from what I understand soldiers easily loose all normal boundaries and so, what belongs to anyone is from a culture and value system that they have had to abandon in order to stay alive followed by the struggle to not only act but believe the moral values before their personal war are still who they are.

I can see how a soldier must struggle when booty is part of the experience associated with, when what was normal did not exist. We see that, maybe not with as much treasure as booty but, retired soldiers die in old age and attic trunks opened hold helmets, flags, guns, shells, photos, and other personal affects of their enemy.

We even had that fun movie years ago Kelly's Heroes where Donald Sutherland was going behind enemy lines with his tank crew to rob the bank so they could make off with the money and not be caught by the US military. I guess that is why it was so funny - we usually associate that behavior with a hoarding monster dragon...

PatH · « **Reply #241 on:** December 05, 2012, 01:26:58 PM »

So, while the dwarves cower in their claustrophobic tunnel, finally coming out to revel in the treasure and find a new hiding hole, great things are happening in the valley. Smaug descends on the town and tries to set everything on fire. Did you notice that he doesn't like to fly close to the lake because he knows the water can quench him? Grim-faced Bard the Bowman kills the dragon, with the help of the thrush's information.

Now comes the difficult recuperation. Notice how Bard and the Master each use their political skills. What is each one trying to do, and how successful is each?

Babi · « **Reply #242 on:** December 05, 2012, 03:19:07 PM »

Oh, drat! Did I do that? Of course it's Robert Burns. Frost is such a favorite of
mine, though, that the name 'Robert' seems to merge into 'Frost' all too often.

Good question, PAT. Bard doesn't really want to be mayor of that town, does he?
So he supports the Master by taking care of the wounded and sick and clearing wreckage.
But his hope is to re-establish his ancestral line at Dale. The Master, of course, though still
suspicious of Bard, definitely wants to keep his very profitable position. The Master sat where he was and "said little, unless it was to call loudly for men to bring him fire and food." And if the town cannot be salvaged, he will slip away with as much wealth as possible.

The ravens have been most helpful to the dwarves, and shown themselves reliable. The oldest of the ravens tells Thorin not to trust the master, but to listen to Bard. Then, "We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation." Surely a wonderful possibility now. But immediatly Thorin's greatest weaknesses, his love of gold and his stubbornness, flare up. He calls those approaching 'thieves' and 'the violent'. It's heartbreaking to think how one leader's faults can bring disaster for so many. Bilbo longed to leave them then, and even some of the dwarves "were moved in their hearts", too, and they muttered that they "wished things had fallen out otherwise and that they might welcome such folk as friends".

Frybabe · « **Reply #243 on:** December 05, 2012, 04:01:51 PM »

I've just started the second of the Halo Forerunner series. What you say? What? Greg Bear, the author, paid homage to Tolkien by mentioning that a character in the series, usually called a Florian, is alternatively known as a Hobbit.

This may sound a little odd, but I quite liked the character Smaug. I think it must be because in the original cartoon movie the character voice was Richard Boone.

There is a lesson in there about how greed, unfettered (in this case once Smaug was out of the way), destroys long standing friendships and alliances. Oh what rationalizations they all come up with. Those very few who are not motivated by greed, like Bard, are suspect.

PatH · « **Reply #244 on:** December 05, 2012, 05:53:42 PM »

Thorin wants to re-establish his kingdom under the mountain. There's a flaw in his plan--even with the military help of his relatives from Iron Mountain, he won't be able to succeed without the good will of the valley-dwellers. The dwarves never grew their own food, relying on trade with the men of Dale. They risk eventually starving, since the men won't now be willing to trade with them.

I really like the onomatopoeic names of the ravens: Carc and Roäc.

marcie · « **Reply #245 on:** December 05, 2012, 08:18:48 PM »

Babi, yes, I noted that not all of the dwarves wanted to follow Thorin but they didn't want to defy him. I guess they knew they would not be able to change his mind.

Frybabe, I too thought that Smaug was interesting. I thought he'd play a bigger role. He reminded me a bit of Gollum.

Pat, the treasure seems to have overpowered Thorin. He certainly wasn't thinking straight.

JoanP · « **Reply #246 on:** December 05, 2012, 10:12:04 PM »

Those birds are interesting, aren't they? - the way they speak languages understood by certain groups, not others... I was surprised that Bilbo was able to understand old Roac...it seems he speaks "ordinary language" - not bird speech. Though he was able to understand the thrush. I guess you'd say Roac was multi-lingual... I think we'll be hearing more bird-speak in the difficult days ahead. Intermediaries seem to be needed.

PatH, will you explain Roac's name as "onomatopoeic" - I don't quite hear it...

JoanP · « **Reply #247 on:** December 06, 2012, 06:22:29 AM »

Frybabe, I agree with what you are saying about the lesson here about unfettered greed destroying friendships and alliances. Up to this point I think we were reading an adventure story - the good dwarves on a mission to take back their family home and treasure from the evil killer- dragon. But the story is taking a turn now, don't you think?

Poor Bilbo, he thought the adventure was over once the dragon was slain, the treasure restored. If he could, he'd leave now - even forget his share. (Don't forget he's already got the Arkenstone in his pocket.)

Can you see an alliance - Bilbo, Bambur, Kili, Fili - pacifists against Thorin, as the threat of war escalates? I'll bet on Bilbo to figure out a peaceful way out of this sticky situation.

Frybabe · « **Reply #248 on:** December 06, 2012, 07:19:31 AM »

PatH, you gave me a new word to look up.

I wanted to check on when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and what his views on war were. Four interesting things emerged: he wrote the book sometime earlier than its publication, having originally written it for his children; he was not a pacifistic, was opposed to Nazism and Stalinism, but was horrified by and critical of the excesses of war (ex: Hiroshima, anti-German propaganda); his treatment of race and racism evolved over time to a more anti-racism stance in his later writings; he loved a simple country life. The latter, I think, shows up in his descriptions of Bilbo's home and community. As far as racism in his writings, I hadn't noticed. Apparently some scholars believe that there was intentional racism, or unconscious ethnocentric bias, or latent racism in his earlier writings. Sometimes I think scholars over think things.

Babi · « **Reply #249 on:** December 06, 2012, 09:10:04 AM »

What a good ear you have, PatH. You're so right; Carc and Roac, if you say the
names out loud, are 'crow' sounds. I would never have noticed that!

Quote

Sometimes I think scholars over think things.

I think you're right,
FRYBABE.

It's confusing. The Elvenking, hurrying to the treasure mountain, turns aside at the plea from Bard to come to the aid of the destroyed town and people of Esgaroth. We read that "he was the lord of a good and kindly people". So, why did he imprison the dwarves when they came to him for help? It's not like they were ancient enemies. It was the dwarves who made so many of the things the elves treasured, like the mithril armor. The two races had been friendly. What did I miss?

JoanP · « **Reply #250 on:** December 06, 2012, 09:24:11 AM »

Babi, I didn't think the dwarves came to the Elvenking for help - I remember they were caught trespassing on his land and refused to tell him why. Either it was as simple as that...or again, maybe it was GREED - maybe he suspected that they were on the way to Lonely Mountain to somehow reclaim their treasure - and wanted a share. It seems there is no trust at this time.

Maybe Roac's name sounds like the croaking of a very old raven?

marcie · « **Reply #251 on:** December 06, 2012, 10:30:20 AM »

JoanP, I think you're right that the story has taken a turn from the "adventure" of killing the dragon and reclaiming the dwarves kingdom and treasure. Now it seems it is about to be the dwarves against the men and wood elves.... over treasure. Babi, it did seem that the dwarves and elves had worked together in the past.

I'm glad that you looked up that information about Tolkien's views on war, Frybabe. In Bilbo, he does seem to want to choose another way for the groups that risks his own life to prevent war. And he does seem to cherish the country life of "nature."

PatH · « **Reply #252 on:** December 06, 2012, 01:55:29 PM »

Tolkien seems to hate modern, mechanized warfare. It's a criticism of the goblins that they invented "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once", and this attitude appears more in LOTR.

He had good reason; he fought in WWI, starting with the Battle of the Somme, that monstrously mismanaged bloodbath, with 50,000 casualties on the first day alone. He managed to get his platoon to whatever their objective was, but that didn't do any good; everyone had to fall back because so few had made it. He escaped being wounded, but some months later fell very ill with trench fever, and had to be hospitalized for months.

It's a different matter when it comes to the older style legendary fighting with swords, etc. He seems to say you shouldn't fight needlessly, but should be ready to fight, and he definitely admires the glory and heroism involved. You don't see that so much here, but there's a lot of it in LOTR.

JoanP · « **Reply #253 on:** December 06, 2012, 08:29:57 PM »

Funny how Tolkien has you wavering back and forth. I thought Thorin made a reasonable request when he asked the Lakemen and the elves to lay down their weapons so they can parley.I've a note that a parley, in military situations, is usually accompanied by a temporary truce, for the purpose of discussing terms.

It turns out that he didn't want a truce at all - didn't want to share what he thought was his - all his. I thought Bard made a better case for a share of the wealth to rebuild what Smaug has destroyed. Also, perhaps he made a bigger case regarding the portion of the hord Smaug had been stealing from them over the years.

Neither side is going to back down on this. How can there be a parley? Clearly war is unavoidable. Even Bilbo's clever maneuver of giving the Arkenstone to Bard as a bargaining chip fell on deaf ears. Thorin never intended to give up Bilbo's share even if Bard returned his precious heirloom - something he wanted more than anything in the world. He knows fellow dwarf, Dain, is on the way to fight back the lake men and the elves. Why? Are they hoping for a share too?

But what's this? The goblins are coming! The goblins are coming! Why? They are armed to the teeth! Will there be an end to those in pursuit of the treasure?

The battle of five armies is on!

marcie · « **Reply #254 on:** December 06, 2012, 09:01:29 PM »

Good points, Pat, about the horrors of war, especially the goblins' "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once" and the sometimes necessary acceptance of one-on-one combat. In The Hobbit, Bilbo is trying to have everyone avoid any type of combat. He just wants peace... and to go home. He thinks that the Arkenstone will be a good parlay chip for Bard and the Elvenking. He knows how much Thorin wants that stone. He's risking a lot to bring it to the supposed "enemy" and risking alot returning to the dwarves. He could have stayed with Bard and the elves but he feels loyalty to the dwarves.

JoanP, what a lot of twists in the plot!
--The dwarves are ready to try to kill the dragon.
--Unknown to them, Bard has already killed Smaug, after the dragon has decimated a lot of the people and town.
--Thorin and the dwarves stake out a claim to the Mountain and treasure.
--The Men and wood-elves come to wait the dwarves out and get at least some of the treasure.
--Bilbo tries to negotiate a peace.
--Dain is on his way with an army of dwarves to fight for the treasure.
--It looks like there will be a big battle between the dwarves and the Men/elves.
--Now Gandolf tells them that the Goblins and wargs are coming!!!! They've learned that the dragon is dead. Now is their chance to kill off all the other creatures in their way.
--It's now the "good guys" banded together against the "evil guys."
--Yikes!

JoanP · « **Reply #255 on:** December 06, 2012, 09:36:58 PM »

I can't imagine what part Bilbo will play in all this, now that Gandalf is on the scene. Poor Bilbo - he's fulfilled his assigned task, handed over his share, including the prized Arkenstone in his attempt at arbitration. Hasn't he earned time off? He can taste the bacon and eggs ...
What more can one little hobbit do as the five armies gather...
I just remembered - he still has that ring in his pocket...

Frybabe · « **Reply #256 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:12:32 AM »

General early morning thoughts: Shifting alliances; good vs evil, within oneself and from without; self discovery; altruism vs selfishness; warmongering vs peaceful solutions to problems. Themes within themes.

JoanP · « **Reply #257 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:44:14 AM »

So very thankful that you are on the lookout for those general themes and implications, Fry! I confess to being so caught up in three December family birthday celebrations, that my late-night reading time is spent turning the pages, totally involved in following Tolkien's plot.

Babi · « **Reply #258 on:** December 07, 2012, 09:24:17 AM »

As I remember it, JOANP, the elves stumbled on the Elvenking's gathering in the
woods, when they were lost and hungry. The elves disappeared before the dwarves
could ask for help. They managed to find them twice more, but with the same result.
The dwarves found their home site, but one of the dwarves let his aggravation come
out in sarcasm and arrogance. Don't remember which one. I think that is what decided
the Elvenking to declare them trespassers. He had some excuse for that, imo, but I
think a couple of days in the dungeons would have been punishment enough.

Quote

"He seems to say you shouldn't fight needlessly, but should be ready to fight, and
he definitely admires the glory and heroism involved."

I think you're right, PAT, and I can sympathize. I can always admire self-sacrificing
heroism and courageous action. There's no 'glory' in slaughtering people from a safe
distance with the push of a button. With modern weapons, we are now able to destroy
mankind and the planet earth, and our precarious safety depends on our restraint in
their use. God help us!

   Nothing like a deadly threat from a common enemy to bring opposing sides to agreement.
Elves, Men, and dwarves alike join their enemies in planning their defense from the goblins, wargs and wolves coming on fast. And Gandalf is with them, as always, in the nick of time. This wizard has unquestionably got more powers than he has let anyone see thus far. Will he reveal more in this crisis, I wonder?

  "....defeat may be glorious." Bilbo's opinion on that "It seems very uncomfortable, not to say distressing. I wish I was well out of it." The little fellow does have a talent for understatement.
  Still, it's true, isn't it, that we memorialize some defeats as glorious? I'm thinking of such as the Alamo, Thermopylae... What makes such losses 'glorious'?

marcie · « **Reply #259 on:** December 07, 2012, 11:08:00 AM »

Frybabe, I too appreciate your bringing those themes to our attention here. Perhaps we can all be on the lookout for others.

Babi, I think that the fact that Thorin and the other dwarves wouldn't tell the elves why they were in their forest is the main reason the elves kept them prisoners, though there seems to be fault for the impasse on both sides.

Near the end of Chapter 8, Tolkien describes the Wood-elves..."These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault, it is distrust of strangers.... They differed from the High Elves of the West, and they were more dangerous and less wise.... Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People."

The elves found Thorin, the first of the dwarves to be captured by the spiders and they dragged him away to their king's cave/dungeons. "they did not love dwarves and thought he was an enemy.... In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves whom they accused of stealing their treasure." The ancient dwarves had a different story...about not being paid for their services and only taking what was owed them.

When questioned by the elf king about his reason for being in the forest at all, Thorin "shut his mouth and would not say another word. 'Very well,' said the king. 'Take him away and keep him safe, until he feels inclined to tell the truth, even if he waits a hundred years.'"

So it looks like past misunderstandings, offenses and ill will continue to plague the Wood-elves and dwarves. Will they be able to put aside their differences if faced with a common enemy -- the terrible goblins?

JoanP · « **Reply #260 on:** December 07, 2012, 04:12:50 PM »

When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #261 on:** December 07, 2012, 05:22:30 PM »

this is a repeat that was recommended we include it here in the Hobbit since they too are traveling and learning as they go...

Why We Travel - http://www.worldhum.com/features/travel-stories/why-we-travel-20081213/

JudeS · « **Reply #262 on:** December 08, 2012, 12:40:32 AM »

Barb
Thank You so much for that wonderful article on travel!
I will pass it on to others.

marcie · « **Reply #263 on:** December 08, 2012, 01:07:05 AM »

Quote from: JoanP on December 07, 2012, 04:12:50 PM

When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...

You're probably right, Joan. I haven't found info about the colors yet.

Babi · « **Reply #264 on:** December 08, 2012, 09:26:10 AM »

Thanks for posting that description of the wood-elves, MARCIE. I remember parts of
it, but putting it succinctly as you did was really helpful in understanding the
differences.

JOANP, I think you will find this article interesting, re. red and black banners.
http://www.infoshop.org/AnarchistFAQAppendix2

Hard-headed Thorin. He succumbed to the dwarves greatest weakness, the obsession for gold and treaure. Wiser too late, his last words to Bilbo were, "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded goal, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
I found this so appropriate. They buried Thorin deep in his mountain, and Bard placed his beloved Arkenstone on his chest. And the Elvenking laid upon his tomb the sword Orcrist, which he had taken from Thorin while he was captive with them. I believe he had earned those tributes.

PatH · « **Reply #265 on:** December 08, 2012, 10:04:01 AM »

Quote from: JoanP on December 07, 2012, 04:12:50 PM

When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...

They certainly meant something to Tolkien. In LOTR, they tend to be associated with evil. The army of Orcs (new name for the goblins) has black banners, and the all-seeing Eye of Sauron (who had a bit part here as the Necromancer) is red, rimmed with fire, with a black pupil. Here's a banner with the eye; it's rather tame, but based on a sketch by Tolkien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mordor.JRRT.jpg

JoanP · « **Reply #266 on:** December 08, 2012, 10:53:23 AM »

I know that a black flag has always been associated with anarchy. Not long ago, someone posted here of Tolkien's war experience. My thoughts went to the German flag colors...the black, the red...and later, the gold. Going back further, I came across this article that may be of interest to those looking for a parallel to war...
Tolkien wrote in his Forward to Lord of the Rings:

"One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918, all but one of my close friends were dead."

Here's the whole article...photos and everything...
J.R.R. Tolkien’s service in the British Army during World War I

marcie · « **Reply #267 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:45:10 AM »

Babi, PatH and JoanP, thanks very much for all of the informative and interesting links in the last several posts. (Babi, the site of your link is unavailable right now; I'll check back later.) Those links help me to see more in the story. I appreciate what the author of your last link, JoanP, says about the effect of his war experiences on Tolkien's writing (that there seems to be a deep, underlying effect, though Tolkien has said that he wasn't directly writing about the war):

"Tolkien himself stated that the war had only a limited influence on his writing. However, it is also true that people are shaped by times in which they live. I think it is likely that Tolkien drew on his memories of fighting on the Western Front while writing The Lord of the Rings – perhaps because at the time he was writing it, England was again engaged in total war with Germany, a war that in many ways was the continuation of the one in which he had served. Even though Tolkien denied that his writing was based on his life, he once wrote to his son Christopher regarding his war experiences:

… I took to 'escapism': or really transforming experience into another form and symbol with Morgoth and Orcs and the Eldalie (representing beauty and grace of life and artefact) and so on; and it has stood me in good stead in many hard years since and I still draw on the conceptions then hammered out."

JoanP · « **Reply #268 on:** December 08, 2012, 01:13:00 PM »

Now you've got me thinking of our little Hobbit - Bilbo wants nothing more than to go home, doesn't want to participate in this war - any more than Tolkien did, from what we can read of his experience in World War I. Do you notice whenever fighting/war breaks out, Bilbo seems to be knocked unconscious and when he comes to, remembers nothing of it? His own form of "escapism"? Do you think Tolkien saw himself in Bilbo - maybe without even being aware of it? That's one way to deal with war memories.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #269 on:** December 08, 2012, 03:25:31 PM »

Well I just need to read further because frankly I was not enjoying this story at all - there was no nobility about it - I reviewed the first chapter where the adventure was laid out by Thorin and I realize I did not read it taking what Thorin said that seriously focusing instead on Bilbo and even Gandalf - I can see for me reading the first chapter was like a shell game - my attention was not on Thorin -

I do have an aversion to trying to take back as if there is implied ownership land or wealth lost by some family member in past generations - as an American I know I am guilty but I also know personally and within my family there were all sorts of great losses - we got through by realizing what was lost was over and to hang on kept you trapped in the past and then to realize all this with visions of wealth that so what - the one who gained the wealth is not handling it or sharing it as you would - we can say that about anything - our ownership ends when the wealth is lost regardless how it is lost -

But then using the concept of loss as a metaphysical symbol I see new struggles to understand the concept taught of a returning God to claim what was given but like when we were kids, if I am to understand the covenants and promises, it only amounts to Indian Giving. We may not have done as well as was imagined but after leaving Eden it was ours to mess up or make better and we did a bit of both.

I have read many a myth and some fantasy where there is a quest but there is something noble about the quest and even the magic is shown with character we would like to emulate - this story has a dark dankness about it with the various adventures over shadowed by a greyness - it is not a story I am enjoying but maybe when I get to where you say JoanP that Bilbo sees his home as his shining light that is his rebirth then Tolkien in my eyes will have redeemed himself. Oh I can easily imagine his imagination is the result of his WWI experience however, this is not how this story has been championed - I am now questioning if I want to see the movie -

I remember being very disappointed with the first movie of the trilogy - when I read the trilogy I saw it as an inner fight within ourselves where as, the movie made all the bad guys, so to speak, so horrible you could not identify with that kind of darkness - but here, with the Hobbit I see the quest as I would put it, ridiculous - you just do not go around claiming what someone in your family lost in the past as if the ownership is still yours and then, to put that many people through that kind of fearful experiences just for gold that a great grandfather lost regardless stolen, taken or as a result of a war - sheesh. But more, an agh and grrrr and brrrr and a few more shakes of the head.

JudeS · « **Reply #270 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:06:01 PM »

Well Barb,
Thanks for your analysis. I agree with much of it.
This book is not my cup of tea. "Nuff said.

I want to remind you all about my special interest in Gollum. There is a two page article in this week's Time Magazine that deals with Gollum, seeing him as the dark side of this movie.
They say
"At a pivotal moment, our Hero encounters Gollum, the haggard creature from TLoTR' Though Gollum is 60 years younger in The Hobbit he is already torn between his desire to be good and his dark addiction to a certain bijou. His coooing over his "precious" is hauntingly familiar.
The rest of the article is devoted to a new cinema technique called Synthespians. Gollum , played by Andy Serkis, is referred to by him as "My Dorian Grey". The whole new technique is a way of making these fictional characters much more real. and
life like. However this technique is mainly focused on Gollum who the filmakers see as an important part of the script.

I wonder how much of the original story will remain in the movie and which parts wil be minimized or deleted.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #271 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:16:55 PM »

I could see someone writing a back story on Gollum - he seems like a someone damaged during his childhood and to have him as an image in our mind's eye when we encounter the many damaged humans who cannot get it together seems appropriate -

to my dislike of the book I am reminded of this Robert H. Schuller quote;
Always look at what you have left. Never look at what you have lost.

Well onward - pages left to read...

PatH · « **Reply #272 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:48:22 PM »

I don't think the point of the quest for Bilbo is about helping the dwarves get back their lost treasure. I'll hold off saying more until the last chapter, though.

PatH · « **Reply #273 on:** December 08, 2012, 05:19:18 PM »

JoanP, that was a remarkably interesting link about Tolkien's war service. Some of the correspondence of WWI and LOTR is obvious, but I hadn't quite realized how much detail there was--the creepy Marshes of the Dead, for instance.

Frybabe · « **Reply #274 on:** December 08, 2012, 05:20:45 PM »

Quote

Do you notice whenever fighting/war breaks out, Bilbo seems to be knocked unconscious and when he comes to, remembers nothing of it? His own form of "escapism"? Do you think Tolkien saw himself in Bilbo - maybe without even being aware of it? That's one way to deal with war memories.

JoanP, good point. Since this was written for his children, I imagine he did not want to describe the horrors of war and give the children nightmares.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #275 on:** December 08, 2012, 05:48:59 PM »

http://www.thehobbitblog.com/

marcie · « **Reply #276 on:** December 09, 2012, 01:01:02 AM »

Interesting thoughts here. As Pat says, it doesn't seem that Bilbo has been co-opted into the same quest that Thorin has. He's sort of turned things on their head by taking the Arkenstone and giving it to the "other side" in order to avoid a war. I think that Bilbo, not Thorin, is the protagonist of the story.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #277 on:** December 09, 2012, 02:26:04 AM »

All that is left is the last chapter - we have Bilbo returning from his adventure - Jude did you figure out what was Bilbo's quest -

There were so many things happening around Bilbo so that for part of the time during the climactic battle he was laying on a stone knocked out and earlier he made himself invisible so that again he was not part of the goings on - does that mean the battle was not part of Bilbo's adventure - if not whose adventure was it?

Who changed during the story - coming home does Bilbo see himself differently - would he go running after some dwarfs to be a part of some unknown adventure or was he more self-contained so that the Baggins side of his personality was in the forefront - or was he totally different beyond either the Baggins or Tuck influence?

Was there a message to this story - what was Tolkien trying to say by telling this long and involved although very well brought together story?

Could you keep everyone sorted out during the battle of the five armies. What was the meaning of the battle - was it just a way to bring all the parts and groups together or did the battle provide a message to the reader.

Gold illuminates the quality of sacredness, incorruptibility, wisdom, nobility and wealth - to Christians, gold represents ambivalence as both the pure light, spiritual treasure given by Christ, triumph in adversity, incorruptibility but also, idolatry - The Golden Calf - and worldly wealth.

Seems to me that those in the story who held a claim to the gold were not very wise and many like Smaug tended toward idolatry - is the plea by the Bard for gold to compensate the Lake people and the wood-elves just that - the pull between Justice as spiritual treasure versus, Idolatry that shows itself as greed - Even Bilbo uses his gold to buy back what was more important to him than gold - his possessions. You have to give him some Kudos for using the precious stone to affect peace.

Is it a real quest or adventure when willy nilly you can appear and then disappear - you can protect yourself when you choose or are there other aspects of the story that make this a quest adventure for Bilbo. Comparing Bilbo's ability to disappear with Harry Potter's invisibility cape Harry had many other touchstones of differences that made his venture complete to the fact his parents were fighting the evil that he is dealing with during his adventure. Was Bilbo fighting evil - who was evil - was Thorin evil - how was Smaug evil - was Gollum evil - what about the Master of Laketown was he evil?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #278 on:** December 09, 2012, 02:26:43 AM »

My take is that none of the characters are the protagonist - they all add bits and pieces to the adventure - we get to see other sides of them as they engage in this venture - to me it was the Trip that was the protagonist - it provided adventure - comfort - opportunity for both risk and bravery and the opportunity to use your wits, and your free will. With the many twists and turns, rivers, mountains, forests, fields it seems to me the Trip was a character that showed more change than any of the dwarfs, hobbits, wizards, goblins, elves, kings you name it.

PatH · « **Reply #279 on:** December 09, 2012, 08:20:22 AM »

Ooops. I thought we were going to talk about the last chapter starting tomorrow. I'll have to reread it, but in the meantime I'll get my thoughts together about the battle.

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