Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

  November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins. Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland  Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

 

Ch 1 - 3	Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6	Nov 17-21	Now Discussing
Ch 7 - 8	Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12	Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15	Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18	Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall	Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 4.

1. Does the thought of setting out on an adventure appeal to you?   What different purposes motivate Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo?
2. Apart from a child's entertainment, do you see other purposes as Tolkien develops his story?
3.  What features of human ingenuity does Tolkien attribute to Goblins?
4. Why do you think swords are approved and romanticised in our mythology?

Chapter 5.

1.  Ah, the key element, the mysterious ring that dominated "The Lord of the Ring" trilogy. One of it's powers we discover quickly;  do you find hints of other effects of the ring?
2.  Why does Bilbo agree to the riddle contest?   Is Tolkien ridiculing any aspect of society that you can think of?
3.  What change takes place in Bilbo regarding Gollum?  What does that say about Bilbo?

Chapter 6.
1.  Why does Bilbo choose to astonish his companions with a startling re-appearance?
  Can you relate to that?   What of his decision to keep the ring a secret...for a while?
2.  What new peril from the goblins do we learn of here?
3. What new species are introduced in this chapter?

 

Discussion Leaders:  PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

[PatH]

Looking in the Archives, I see we discussed The Lord of the Rings back in 2001.  That was before my time, on the old site, and only two participants (Alf and Barb) are currently on this site.  So it's not impossible to do it again.  It would be a big deal, though.  LOTR is very long, very complicated, with a cast of thousands (maybe not literally, but there are a huge number of people to keep straight).  There is a background subtext of the history of Middle Earth which has to be kept in mind.  They didn't go into as much detail as we are doing here, and it was a lower-key discussion, but it took 6 1/2 months.

We'll have to see how much interest there is.  Participants drop out, especially in a long discussion, so we need enough to last.  And we need leaders willing to commit.  We should discuss it, here and out somewhere like the Library, and see how much interest there is.

[hats]

61/2 months?? That's a long time. I wasn't here that far back.

[BarbStAubrey]

Since it is three books why not do a book at a time and see how it goes - I bet one book could be done in 6 weeks and then do a 2 month hiatus while other books could be read etc.

I could not help laugh aloud with all the Hobbits coming unexpectedly - it reminded me of this country and how some are very comfortable as things have been - thank you - and now we have all these immigrants who want their own choice of food, dress, language, religion etc. so that those who are comfortable worry if the nation's larder is big enough and if all the resources will be used up taking care of the new comers that were not expected or invited - 'build a fence and arm the citizenry, the hobbits are coming the hobbits are coming - They are seeking our pale and enchanted gold...

Sounds like we need another Woody Guthrie to wake up the Took inside us so we too feel a jealous love for this land.

Are we co-conspirators - are we excellent and audacious - if life is the journey then do we shriek at the thought - do we use our time as if bursting out like a whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel - maybe some of us will be fierce as a dragon in a pinch - but golly, is the way we express our fierceness to charge others in battle...

Well for me I do know I made some choices in the late 80s that I still do not think I was a fool for making but the adventure has challenged me and there is many a time I doubt rather than believe, get scared rather than own any fierceness. I wonder how many of us walked into some life experiences that pushed us beyond what we imagined for ourselves.

[JoanK]

The Hobbit is so obviously a caracature, I've been wondering whether Tolkien had a particular person in mind that he was caracaturing.

here's a thought: usually, the main character i such a story is either a hero, or "everyman", someone the readers can identify with. Maybe, as Don Quixote is a characature of the hero, maybe Bilbo is a characature of everyman.

the reader is supposed to identify with "everyman". I can't imagine children doing so, but maybe their parents can.

[JoanP]

An interesting thought, JoanK.  I agree, we can relate to "everyman" which I think Bilbo represents...but you're right about a child, who is more self-centered.  Wouldn't a child put himself (herself) in Bilbo's shoes as he reads of his frightening adventures...with the man-eating Goblins, for example?

I'm enjoying the book as a first time reader too, Hats.  Though I did read Lord of the Rings a long, long time ago, I don't think I read the Hobbit.  Jumped right into the Trilogy.  I'm enjoying your reminders of the colors and the sounds. Yes, lots of green and yellow.  I see Bilbo is wearing a green cloak - weather-stained.  Sounds like camoflage to me.  Should come in handy for what lies ahead.

So Thorin is the leader - because the map to the treasured swords belonged to his father.  He has a personal interest in the expedition, but why would Bilbo risk his life - just to save face.  Did you notice his contract even includes funeral expenses?  He doesn't crave adventure.  Something about his mother's blood - the "Took" in him is calling?

Again, I really pity Belladonna Took and her adventureless life.  She is described as  having been a "lively" girl."  She lives in this huge house.  She had one son.  Bilbo is 51 years old, we're told. Babi, where did you learn that this isn't old for a hobbit?  He seems pretty set in his ways, a confirmed bachelor, no?  He isn't married, there is no grandchild for Belladonna to dote on.  What does she do with her time?  Maybe she should have gone on the adventure.  I hope she makes an appearance in the story and we can feel better about her.

[PatH]

The contract includes funeral expenses if "the matter is not otherwise arranged for".  That means if Bilbo is eaten, or washed away in a river, or otherwise unrecoverable.

In chapter one, Bilbo is described as "grown up, being about fifty years or so", and their age span is talked about more in Lord of the Rings.  At the opening of LOTR we meet Bilbo again; he is 111 years old.

[PatH]

We only have 2 more days on this section, so we ought to add chapters 2 and 3 to our conversation.

In chapter 2, Bilbo makes his first attempt at burglary.  How successful is he?  Does he have a lot to learn?

Chapter 3 marks a new stage, where they rest, acquire new information, and ready themselves for the real wilderness and danger to come.

[JoanP]

"Trolls are big and scary."

 
How big?  Compared to a dwarf, say?  They're described as having heavy faces...and distinguished by the shape of their legs...though I can't imagine what those look like.  We're told that they are mostly distinguished by their language.  Does that refer to the talk about not having eaten any manflesh for a long time?  That would frighten a child...and a comparatively small hobbit too, I imagine.

 

  What device does Tolkien use to make them less so for his younger readers?

Thinking about this question...from a child's point of view now, I think that Tolkien showed that while the dwarves were intimidating, they did have a heart - Though Bilbo was caught with his hand in William's pocket, William took pity on the "poor little blighter" - and let him go!  The very fact that these three had familiar names...William, Tom, Bert make them less intimidating to a child too, more human.

Bilbo got caught, he does have a lot to learn about burglarizing.   But he didn't hesitate to approach the three "big and scarey" trolls...and attempt to carry out his task.  Did he succeed? I guess you might say he did...he's a hero - he managed to get the key to the dwarves'  treasured swords. He showed that he has nerve - and courage, though still a bit clumsy in execution.  

[Babi]

 Since Lord of the Rings is actually a trilogy, a three-book discussion would be a huge
undertaking. I'm wondering whether I would be willing to commit to what would likely
be a months-long undertaking. I would heartily recommend reading it to anyone
who hasn't done so. It is marvelous.
 WOW! I see it was discussed once, and took 6 & 1/2 months! Thank you, PAT.

 JOANP, I see that PatH has already answered your question. Yes, that is where I
found it. I like your view of Bilbo...nerve and courage, just a bit clumsy. 

 I'm noticing things in my reading that we all can relate to, young and old.  How many times have we been hurried out the door,  muttering 'purse, tissues, keys, glasses',  only to end up on our way and exclaiming, Oh, I forgot my ______!   Thankfully, Gandalf does bring him his handkerchiefs,  and even the all-important pipe and tobacco, which he hadn't thought of at all.  But after all, Bilbo has never been a trip before.  He wouldn't know where to begin making plans.  And how many times, even on a trip we're enjoying,  have we though wistfully of our comfortable chair and home and our familiar beds?
  See what genetic heritage can get you into.  The 'Took' outlook is taking over!

   I was a bit aghast to read that the trolls had already eaten 'a village and a half' of people.  Is that
really suitable for a child?  Which of you is it that read "The Hobbit" with your grandson?  How did he react
to this sort of thing?

[JoanP]

Babi...this little band of dwarves would be nowhere without Gandalf.  I hope he stays the course.

I'm thinking of reading it with my grandson...they seem to be used to gore - man-eating dwarves won't phase them - they know it's make-believe.  Besides, the trolls are outdone by a bunch of dwarves...you almost feel sorry for them.

[JoanK]

Are the trolls scary? I have a sample of one. My grandkids came over last night. The 13 year old always brings a book with him to read -- last night he brought -- guess what -- The Hobbit!

He's almost through with it. he asked me eagerly if I'd come to the trolls yet. I told him yes, and asked if they were scary. he looked confused and said no, they're hilarious.

He's older than the children we had in mind. But still,  I think that tells us something. Maybe we aren't as good at putting ourselves in the mind of a child as we think we are.

[PatH]

I have a wonderful opportunity, which I'll probably pass up.  The movie of The Hobbit opens on December 14.  My f2f sci-fi/fantasy book club meets on the 13th, and some of the members are planning to go to the midnight plus one minute show afterward, everyone invited.  At least one will be in costume.  I don't know what character she'll be; she's a gorgeous young woman, and such characters aren't in good supply in the book.

[PatH]

he asked me eagerly if I'd come to the trolls yet. I told him yes, and asked if they were scary. he looked confused and said no, they're hilarious.

Exactly.  By the time it occurs to you that they eat people, you already think they're funny.

[JudeS]

Babi
You ask if certain things in The Hobbit  are"Suitable for a child?"

The Swiss developmental psychologist, philosopher and theoretician, Jean Piaget, determined the facts that all Developmental Psychology is based upon.

The ability to differentiate between reality and fiction (trolls eating villagers, for instance) is developed between the ages of seven to eight and a half in our society. The Hoobit is aimed at the nine to thirteen age range. Therefore there aren't many children of that age who would be frightened by the "scary events" in this book or in other of Tolkien's books or movies.
Most younger children would be put off by the complexity of the plot...but not all. Remember there are SOME children who at age seven are ready to enjoy this book because their development in this arena came early.

[Babi]

  Interesting, JUDE.  Sounds right, too.  I can well imagine a child of 7 or 8 enjoying this
book, but I think it's too complex for younger children.  An author may intend a book for
a certain age group,  but there is no guarantee that either younger or older readers may
not read it.  If Tolkien did intend his book for the 9-13 age group, I wonder what he would
think of us old-timers thoroughly enjoying it.

   I was surprised to find the dwarves so easily captured by the three trolls?  After all, these are supposed to be a hardy,  capable crew, off to battle a dragon!   Fortunately, Gandalf returns to the rescue, but he doesn't actually use any wizardly magic.  He imitates the troll voices and plays upon their weakness...ie, their hair-trigger tempers.  Children might very
well find the whole episode funny,  but I wonder if the idea could also have been put
across that using your brain could be more effective than wielding a weapon.

  The "Last Homely House".  Strange the way I responded to that name,  from the first time I read it.  A sense of nostalgia, of loss.  There is something saddening about it, beautiful as it is. 
 So true,  that the good quiet days and the comfortable pastimes, well....there's not much to say about them.  It's the hard times and trying events that make the stories.  And I suppose that's natural enough.  There is much to think about,  much to learn,  in the bad times.

[PatH]

I think you're right about the lesson of the trolls, Babi, the trolls are undone by clever exploitation of their weakness.

You're also right to feel a sense of nostalgia and loss surrounding the elves.  They are an ancient people, with a mostly tragic history, and they have a feeling of remoteness from the time they are now living in.

There is a historical background subtext to this book which wasn't available to the public until some years after The Hobbit was published.  Tolkien had been working out the material that eventually formed The Silmarillion for years, and when he came to write The Hobbit, he used this world, its history and assumptions, as his setting.  It's not necessary to know any of this subtext to enjoy The Hobbit, but I think its existence is responsible for the vividness of the setting, and the feel of some of the characters.  Elrond in particular is an ancient, powerful, and heroic figure, as hinted at in this story.

[BarbStAubrey]

I've been enjoying this on two levels - it is so apropos to the political divides of the day - Also, I have been thrilled reading this through the eyes of a kid. When I was about 7 or 8 and it was exciting to hear of all this adventure and gore and good guys and bad guys and to get scared where it was safe reading in bed to get scared - like being in your own little world that parents nor siblings could pester you but every sound in the house added to the scary feelings. Of course I am thinking what it was like to read before TV and when the radio was only on in the morning for Mary Margaret McBride, that my mother faithfully listened to her advise and on Saturday and Sunday evening for Inner Sanctum and Charlie McCarthy and and and. The majority of the day and evening you heard the wind, crickets, birds, field and street sounds - even the fire crackling.

I wonder if the naming of the swords plays into the story later - you can see how Tolkien writes this as if telling the story to a child when things have to add up and little happenings are embroidered into bigger events. What a great way to teach a child that some awful thing could happen if you attempt to be important like a Hobbit and lift a wallet from someone's back pocket.

The morality lessons are sublet, yet they are there and done so outrageously they are not scolding lessons. If you sympathize with the Hobbits then when Bilbo is being eaten out of house and home, as a kid you shake your head about these naughty visitors but then, he follows up with a Thank You note that re-enforces the practice to those reading the story. Brilliant.

[JoanK]

Why do the swords have names?

In a lot of myths, the swords have names: King Arthur, Wagner's ring cycle. Tolkien may be drawing on the same myths that Wagner was?

So, why? because this makes them magic objects, with lives and histories of their own? I'm a birder, and when people ask why do I care what the name of that bird is, I say "if you don't know its name, you'll never know its history."

[PatH]

So, why? because this makes them magic objects, with lives and histories of their own? I'm a birder, and when people ask why do I care what the name of that bird is, I say "if you don't know its name, you'll never know its history."

You hit the nail squarely on the head, JoanK.  They aren't necessarily magic, though they may be, but swords of legend are personalities in their own right, part of the cast of characters, so they have names.  We learn that both swords have been used to fight goblins, and Gandalf's sword, Glamdring, was the sword of a fallen king.

We'll hear more about this in the next section.

[PatH]

Tolkien did indeed draw on the same myths as Wagner.  Tolkien's re-working, The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún, was done before The Hobbit, though not published until a few years ago.  In The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn, heir to a long-abandoned throne, has the shards of Narsil, the sword of his  fallen ancestor, re-forged, and renames it Anduríl.  This is similar to the musically splendid scene in which Wagner has Siegfried re-forge his father's broken sword, and name it Nothung.

[hats]

Hi Majic,

I'm glad to meet you. Your mother had a grand idea. I hope we do get a chance to read it together. I have been sitting back enjoying the answers to the questions and the story.

[hats]

PatH, I really like JoanK's quote. I'm going to read it again. Seems very important to me as an individual as well as the dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf, etc.

[hats]

So that means their family history is very important? If so, I can identify. I believe our family history is very important. My youngest son use to listen very closely whenever I would speak about family stories. It just seemed so natural for him to listen to my words.

[marjifay]

I read two chapters of The Hobbit and sent it back to the library.  Found it boring.  Guess fantasy is just not for me.

Marj

[Babi]

 The road of adventure....and perhaps the road of life as well?  "..  most of the paths were cheats and deceptions and led nowhere or to bad ends; and most of the passes were infested by evil things and dreadful dangers."    How often do we feel that way when our children first set out on their own?
   I agree that as a child's book, Tolkien intended more than amusement and entertainment. Already he has encouraged learning new things, exploring new places, courage...and now the wisdom of listening to the advice and guidance of wiser and more seasoned heads.

   It seems to me that Tolkien is showing his views on war, here.  The 'cruel, wicked, bad-hearted' goblins are the ones who invented the many weapons of war, from hammer to instruments of torture.  "It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the w world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large nmbers of people at once..." 

  The weapons he describes as beautiful, as well as terrible,  are the magical swords whose purpose is to destroy evil beings.  How many swords appear in fantasy/mythology that 'glow'
in the presence of such beings, giving warning of their presence.
 Pity we can't arrange for weapons that are only used in defense and always slay bad guys.

[hats]

Barbara I see Tolkien's story in the same way. I see it as a cautionary tale about life's journey which is a daily adventure. I'm never fully prepared. I remember going on vacations with the family. No matter how far in advance I packed, no matter how many notes written, I would leave something behind. Bilbo has the same experience. He has forgotten his handkerchiefs. He didn't see Gandalf's sign on the door. He didn't dust under the clock. Tolkien, I think, is writing about adventures not being a natural part of our nature. It's alright to treat ourselves gently when stuff goes wrong along the way. We're only human. I think these points or the point would help children not to become perfectionists as so many of us have become along our way through life.

[PatH]

Thanks for trying, marjifay.  No book appeals to everyone.  Better luck with the next book.

I agree, hats, family history is very important.  Even if our ancestors weren't in the history books, there is inspiration in looking at those people living lives that are quietly heroic as they do their best to make a good life for themselves and their families.

[hats]

I think the trolls are less frightening because they argue constantly. The arguments make the trolls lose track of time and where they are exactly in their plans. I think children would laugh at the silly behavior between the trolls. I also think the fact that the trolls have a weakness would make a child more comfortable with the spooky parts of the story. The trolls can become stone again and forever. So, children can see the the big, bad people aren't so strong and infallible after all.

[marcie]

I like the hint that Tolkien gives us about the book toward the end of the third chapter, just when the group arrives at the Last Homely House and finds its doors flung wide:

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway. They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, and they found it hard to leave. Bilbo would gladly have stopped there forever and ever – even supposing a wish would have taken him right back to his hobbit-hole without trouble. Yet there is little to tell about their stay.

It seems that this adventure is going to be mostly about the difficulties our group faces and how they will be tested to make them possible heroes.

[dbroomsc]

While in our local Barnes & Noble store, I happen to come upon a book entitled "The Hobbit and Philosophy" edited by Gregory Bassham and Eric Bronson.  Since I have been enjoying reading "The Hobbit" I thought this would be an interesting supplement.  I was right.  "The Hobbit" is a book of adventure.  Bilbo has never had any adventures.  His life is content, but dull.  However, once he leaves his comfort zone, he becomes  braver, more courageous, more self-reliant and something of a hero.  In "The Hobbit and Philosophy" we are told that is true for everyone.  Once we challenge ourselves to attempt new things, travel or meet new people, etc., we too, become braver, more courageous and more self reliant.  We don't necessarily become heroes, but we do become more interesting.

[JoanK]

Hats: excellant points. We do indeed always leave something behind.

Looks like bilbo is leaving his old self behind. "the hobbit and philosophy." fascinating!

[BarbStAubrey]

Looks like we are all being a bit introspective as we read of Bilbo's adventure - Great sounding book Dean - tempting but oh so many piled on my sofa and nearby tables that this fall I could not say no to regardless there are not enough hours to read them.

Interesting isn't it hats how we see some of these groups frightening and others as benign - he sure does a good job of making those who appear frightening to be silly and interesting and then, allowing the mountain to gobble them up along with the ponies  - even more interesting is how big and rough and ill-mannered is made more frightening trumping, stealing by another smaller in statue group and even more, that Bilbo would ignore his morals in order to please the dwarfs who expect him to steal. Seems to me since the stealing is said to be a mischief Tolkien could be saying "One man's glory is another man's downfall". And then he writes that Bilbo lies to protect his friends - seems reasonable when the game of life is laced with fear.

Snug at home Bilbo would not have so many temptations to betray his own values. Is that it - he is relying on the Dwarfs during his adventure and so he feels the need to please them - I shudder that courage is counted coup with an act requiring courage during the mischievous nipping of someone's possession regardless, how frightening the owner appears.

Clarissa Pinkola Estes says, "We are strong when we stand with another soul. When we stand with one another, we cannot be broken." hmm OK but then it is difficult to justify standing with a group whose moral character is drowning you into submission.

I then ask, who is this guy Gandalf that he should arrange to have a group descend on Bilbo's home in an effort to awaken Bilbo to the Tuck heritage within and arranges fellow adventurers with other values. Ah and then it hits - Gandalf has become like a concept of God - a power - not a protector or a seducer - although, I wish God did a bit more protecting but one quick look at the world and the history of the world there is/was little protection - Gandalf appears to be a sorcerer of opportunity and if a God symbol, and there is pre-destination then, he is the source of our life's adventures - This is getting so far into trying to understand how we, so easily as Bilbo, act for our best interest in spite of what we value. How common it is that we allow fear and the need to be a part of a group determine our behavior.

Ah and like the many fairytales and myths they are explorations into our inner being - our spirit.

[BarbStAubrey]

Walking a Mountain Path and such is the adventures of Life ---!

[BarbStAubrey]

Building a Mountain Path

[hats]

The photos and posts are so yummy. I have always loved the ocean. I have dreamed of living by the ocean. Just lately I've become fascinated with mountains. Mountains are so beautiful. When I look at a mountain and think of living on a mountain, I think of peace and safety. Like going far away from the maddening crowd. Thinking of Thomas Hardy the author of Far From The Maddening Crowd. I have one problem. I am afraid of heights.

Babi I haven't gotten to the Last Homily House yet. I like the name too. Can't wait to see how it's described. Just reading your post I think of "nostalgia."

JoanK I like learning about the sword names. I never realized in most fairy tales and/or fantasy swords have names. Did Don Quixote's sword have a name? I know his horse had a name.

dean69 I like your point and can understand it. Leaving our comfort zone leads to improvement in our character. I've always heard or read it's best to face our fears. Wonder what would have happened to Bilbo and the rest of his life if he hadn't taken on the journey and remained behind his green door with the yellow knob. After Gandalf and all had gone, I think he would have felt regret for not taking the risk. Once I decide not to take a risk, the next day I alway have feelings of regret. But as people use to say "time waits for no man." As my uncle would say, "the train done gone."

[Babi]

 I do so agree with you, HATS, that we should let our children know they don't need
to be perfect. Children who feel they have to be the best at everything are under so
much pressure. It can easily become too much.

  True, MARCIE. But I wouldn't have missed the visit for anything.  Look what the
"Last Homely House" and it's people have done for our adventurers in their 'short rest'.   
Besides good food, laughter, music, dancing and singing.  Rested, refreshed, ...'their
clothes were mended as well as their bruises, their tempers and their hopes." The
perfect vacation we all hope for and seldom find.

 On Bilbo and stealing, we should remember that the treasure was the property of the
dwarves, who were driven out by the dragon. I cannot imagine Bilbo actually stealing
anything that belonged to someone else. As to lying to protect one's friends, I think
anyone who would betray their friends because they 'could NOT tell a lie!' has far more
serious ethical problems than lying. Like, say, self-righteousness, pride, ego.
  Loved comparing the two 'mountain path' pictures, BARB. What a difference in
attitude!

[hats]

Can someone show pretty swords? Didn't really understand why they are romanticized. Babi I can't see Bilbo as a thief either. He's a nice guy. What is Bilbo's weakness? I'm having trouble finding anything wrong with him. He loves his home. Keeps thinking about it.

[JoanP]

Hats, I was taken with your mention of Don Quixote...and the contrast between these two adventurers.  An interesting question about his sword's name.

JoanK's comment about why sword's were given names..."with lives and histories of their own, makes them magic objects." I'm trying to remember whether DON Q. of all people named his sword.  He must have.  He spent some time thinking up a name for his  horse, Rocinante...  but his sword?  Don Q. read and studied many books of past exploits.  I can't believe he didn't name his sword.  Here's a site that addresses sword's names in history.  There's even a picture of Don Q's sword...but no name.. Does anyone remember a name?



If you scroll  down this page you come to a list of  Fictional Swords...the swords from The Hobbit appear on this list...

Don Quixote and Bilbo Baggins are very different sorts of adventurers.  Don Quixote lives for the adventure...even when he is returned to his home, physically unable to go on, he escapes to continue.  He is driven by the adventure.  But Bilbo?  Not your stereotypical adventurer is he?   What keeps him going? Is it survival now?   Did he have a noble purpose, worth risking his life for?   This is the same question we were asking in the early chapters.  

Dean, I'm thinking of your post -  
"I've always heard or read it's best to face our fears. Wonder what would have happened to Bilbo and the rest of his life if he hadn't taken on the journey and remained behind his green door with the yellow knob."  I'm wondering that too.  Was he a fearful hobbit up to that time, unhappy with his life?  Maybe that was it.  Maybe the purpose of the adventure was to make him appreciate the life that he had...

As he moves forward, the words, "not for the last time" recur...almost like a refrain -  

"He wished again and again for his nice bright hobbit-holl.  Not for the last time."

"He was thinking once again of his comfortable chair before the fire in his favourite sitting room in his hobbit-hole and the kettle singing. Not for the last time."

[JoanP]

"1. What different purposes motivate Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo?"

It seems the dwarves want their stuff, Bilbo's purpose is still murky, at least in my mind - but Gandalf?  What motivates him?

"Gandalf appears to be a sorcerer of opportunity and if a God symbol, and there is pre-destination then, he is the source of our life's adventures."  Whoa, Barbara...there's so much to take in here.  If we're talking about pre-destination, we know that Bilbo will come through each of these adventures...... we know that, don't we?  Children listening to this story can sense that too, don't you think?  Perhaps that's why they aren't frightened, but curious to see how he will survive each hurdle, not IF.  On a broader scale, do we know that about our own destiny, at the end of our adventure.

But someone mentioned here or in the Prediscussion, Tolkien's deeply religious Catholic background - which would probably pre-clude the idea of predestination. Maybe it's too presumptive to assume that's what he's writing about here...

Gandalf as a God symbol or one of the gods of myth  is an  interesting though.  Gandalf referred to the Necromancer.  A definition of a recromancer?  Something to do with communicating with the dead?  What was that about?  This is getting interesting on a whole other level.