Author Topic: Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online (Read 70423 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #280 on:** December 09, 2012, 08:29:43 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

Ch 19 and overall

Dec 10-13

Now Discussing

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?

What was Bilbo's quest?

Who changed during the story?

There seems to be a lot of luck and coincidence in this story. Is it really luck? If not, what is it?

Chapter 19.

1. As he returns home, how do the other hobbits respond to Bilbo?

2. Does Bilbo see himself differently? What's important to him?

Discussion Leaders: PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

JoanP · « **Reply #281 on:** December 09, 2012, 08:34:26 AM »

I see GREED as the real villain - but not clear about the protagonist here. Sometimes I hear Tolkien saying that each man has the capacity for good and evil-doing -an inner battle between choosing what we know is right - and what is irresistible. Is Bilbo Everyman?
I'm not sure if the battle is strong enough within Bilbo to make him stand out as the protagonist. As the journey nears to an end, and Bilbo nears home, I'm curious to know if he still has the ring in his pocket? Or will that be revealed in the final chapter? Perhaps that will be his treasure.

I'd like to hear more from you all about Thorain. Like Barbara, I wasn't focused on him. -until the end when he assumed a central role. Why did he choose to take back the Mountain from Smaug at this particular time in history? Was it because Smaug was posing such a danger to surrounding inhabitants and the dwarves felt compelled to stop him - and take back what was once theirs?

And then again, determined to hold the Mountain once Smaug was overcome, what made Thorain step forward and call a halt to the siege?

Off to a family gathering until tomorrow - it is fascinating to read the different reactions to the story. My 10 year old nephew will be at this party. I'm giving him a copy of the book, though I do have a back-up present if there is a problem with it...a problem with his mother's reaction.

Babi · « **Reply #282 on:** December 09, 2012, 09:43:59 AM »

First, I want to pass on to you this treasure, posted in the Library, by PEDLN.
Scroll down 3-4 rows and you will find marvelous 'Hobbit' gifts.
http://pinterest.com/akpearl/a-book-lover-s-christmas/

BARB, your interest in symbolism comes through in everything. It's as though everything means something else; that there are hidden meanings, 'spiritual' meanings, to every action. I sometimes wonder if the author could possibly have intended all that you see.

It was satisfying to read that Dain remained, the new King of the Mountain. I like to imagine, in my cheerful lapses into fantasy, to imagine such places and such beings as still there. The same with Beorn and his bear-man descendents. What would I not give to spend a spring and summer in those meadows.

Does it seem a bit much to the rest of you, that Bilbo's sense of integrity required him to make an expensive gift to the Elvenking on parting with him. Sure, he swiped some food and drink while he was there, invisibly working toward freeing his friends. But under those circumstnces, I would hardly think myself indebted to their captor.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #283 on:** December 09, 2012, 12:15:20 PM »

Seems that I do see many facets of aspects of a story - however, when it comes to myth and fantasy wrapped in myth symbolism is most often the crux of the story - like going down the street and knowing the symbols for a barber shop and a gas station - you see the symbol and know what it means and what to expect. Over the years I have picked up several books listing and explaining the meaning of traditional symbols - I also practice a faith that is steeped in symbolism as are the ceremonies in most religions - as a nation we have a few, like the flag and knowing what the first Monday in October means along with some of the permanent holidays but with so many of them moving holidays now they have lost their references.

This is said to be a book about good and evil and so being observant of the exchanges between characters that show that battle of good and evil seems to be part of the read. I remember as a kid we had whole classroom discussions on if it was evil to take bare necessities - then we were talking about the character in Les Mis which we read in 8th grade and earlier there were some short stories that I no longer remember although, I believe also written by Maupassant. The topic of taking basics came up and it was decided that it was wrong - and so today, reading how Bilbo burgled food seemed reasonable and yet, back during mid-twentieth century it was considered wrong. And so with that I guess we can say that Bilbo represents both good and evil - to me he is a good one throughout.

It was Thorin who surprised me - like JoanP it never occurred what was his intent and yet, when you re-read that first chapter it is all there. Made me feel vulnerable to how often I am being fooled because I have one viewpoint and the other event that seems out of sight or beyond belief is ignored. I am thinking that is what this nation did about Global Warming - granted there were two sides to the issue and if the one side was spouting their pooh poohing of the situation hmm I guess they were like Thorin, wanting what was - that provided them with wealth - hmm more examples than at first flush reading this book -

I still felt uncomfortable with the story and feel the story was just a chance to dump a lot of unwarranted turmoil that was supposed to be under the surface for generations. As if we are our history - not taking into consideration cause and effect - most turmoil does have an immediate or still simmering cause - in this story instead of 'the devil made me do it' Tolkien seems to be saying 'my deceased great grandfather made me do it.'

JudeS · « **Reply #284 on:** December 09, 2012, 01:00:22 PM »

Since all of you see so much in this book that I don't I keep trying to understand "THE QUEST in the book.
Well it came to me after I read an aricle in the magazine section of our newspaper. It was an interview with Marin Freeman who plays Bilbo in the movie.
He says that Peter Jackson sees Bilbo as intelligent, funny, surprising and brave. Also that"BIlbo finds himself in
situations where , either for himself or his comrades, he has to act. That is real heroism".

Now I read the account of Tolkiens wartime experience twice even before it was posted on this site. I see his experience as different than the comments made by others here.
First of all Tolkien put off joining the army till 1916 while most of his contemporaries were in from 1914. Some had already died. He spent less than a year on the front after contracting both Trench Foot and Trench Fever. He spent the rest of the war in England since he was found unfit for duty in battle. On the Front more of his friends and colleagues were dying. Tolkien spent the rest of the war doing office duties at his home headquarters. During this period Tolkiens first son was born.
I beleive that Bilbo's struggles to act and act correctly when the need arose was Tolkiens struggle.
The need for "real" action to save one's comrades was Tolkiens unfinished experience which he put to rest by writing this book which really was his first.
So many dead friends must have left a residue in Tolkiens concious that he, unlike them, survived and returned to his own bed. To assuage that guilt we have the mild and undistinguished Bilbo who is a lopsided hero but a hero never the less.

So there is the Quest that I was searching for.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #285 on:** December 09, 2012, 01:52:10 PM »

hmmm interesting - I like it - not something i would have thought through and yet, it fits so well - thanks Jude.

marcie · « **Reply #286 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:01:57 AM »

By protagonist, I'm thinking "main character" of the story. I do see that as Bilbo, "the hobbit" of the book title. It seems to me that the book is mainly about him and his actions/reactions.

In the beginning Bilbo seems set in his ways and usually content to keep to the background. Then, he takes on the challenge of being the "burglar" among the troop of dwarves, mostly it seems to me because he felt backed into it and his "Took" side took over. During the journey, he had several opportunities to show courage, ingenuity and skill and, as Jude points out, he made the choice to take action even at the risk of his life.

I appreciate your bringing that analysis here, Jude. It makes sense to me.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #287 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:18:31 AM »

interesting article about the difference between the protagonist and the main character.

http://storyfanatic.com/articles/story-structure/the-true-definition-of-a-protagonist

I thought the protagonist was the one who shows the most change - now I am thoroughly confused.

Frybabe · « **Reply #288 on:** December 10, 2012, 08:26:47 AM »

That is a little confusing.

PatH · « **Reply #289 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:06:10 AM »

I might have found the article less confusing if I had read or seen any of the stories he was talking about.

Babi · « **Reply #290 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:52:20 AM »

Deep topic for a classroom discussion, BARB. I would suppose it was intended to
help young people make moral choices. As a kid, I would have decided the same way, I'm sure. Now that I'm much older and have had time to consider more carefully, I see another point of view. In the Christian ethic, we are commanded to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. If we did so, they would not be driven to theft in order to survive. The right to life is also confirmed in our earliest documents as a nation. So now, it seems to me that the wrong, the 'evil', is most squarely on those who fail to share what we have to meet the needs of desperate fellow beings.
Oh, my. Somebody help me down off this soapbox.

So now we are on the last stage of our adventure, very tired, I'm sure.
Once again, happily, we get to stay a while at Elrond's house. One could recover from most anything there, I believe. I had to smile at the elves singing a 'lullaby' under his window while he was already sleeping. And Bilbo wakes and goes to the window and informs the 'merry people', "Your lullaby would waken a drunken goblin! Yet, I thank you." I wouldn't mind that myself, especially as I could then go back to bed.

PatH · « **Reply #291 on:** December 10, 2012, 10:07:41 AM »

One more comment about the battle. The attack of the goblins and wargs saved the day in a way. It came just in time to stop the elves, men and dwarves from fighting each other, so even though many lives were lost, afterward the 3 peoples could co-exist peacefully.

marcie · « **Reply #292 on:** December 10, 2012, 10:43:32 AM »

That's a good point, Pat. The goblin attack was turned into an opportunity to work together, although many lives were lost. Lives would have been lost too, if the dwarves had fought the elves and men.

Ginny shared an interesting short article about the Tolkien manuscripts which are housed at the University of Marquette. The article is at
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opinion/sunday/hobbits-in-the-heartland.html

Near the bottom of the article is a link to a lecture by a Tolkien scholar. It's fascinating and included information (about halfway through) about the 1937 version of THE HOBBIT which had very different interactions between Bilbo and Gollum. It's the 1960's version that we've been reading together, which was re-written after Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings.

marcie · « **Reply #293 on:** December 10, 2012, 10:46:19 AM »

Quote from: Babi on December 10, 2012, 09:52:20 AM

Once again, happily, we get to stay a while at Elrond's house. One could recover from most anything there, I believe. I had to smile at the elves singing a 'lullaby' under his window while he was already sleeping. And Bilbo wakes and goes to the window and informs the 'merry people', "Your lullaby would waken a drunken goblin! Yet, I thank you." I wouldn't mind that myself, especially as I could then go back to bed.

Babi, I too smiled at Bilbo's typically wry reaction. I love the humor that surrounds Bilbo's character in much of the story.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #294 on:** December 10, 2012, 03:34:11 PM »

Well Pat for that you get a gold star - all that goings on during the battle - stars and medals to anyone who could sort out who was with whom and where they were heading and where they came from and what they were protecting - Holy Hannah - but you sorted it out and got something from it. Rah Rah -

I got the impression that Tolkien sees these wars as the result of ancient fights when towns were destroyed after they were plundered - do you think all this was a grudge match for the elves?

Then when Bilbo gets home he has another skirmish on his hands with the very folks who were friends and neighbors - is life being depicted as nothing but an effort to protect what you have - and live on your own keeping a safe distance from even neighbors who have another idea of how you should live?

JoanP · « **Reply #295 on:** December 11, 2012, 08:54:45 AM »

We took the long way home from New Jersey yesterday. Got home later than planned.

We drove through The shore towns... No longer front page news...we forget those in New York/New Jersey who have lost everything...with winter coming on. The saddest are those who are simply camping in the moldy homes with no heat or electricity... Mold seems to be the biggest problem right now...piles of appliances, furniture, cabinets, insulation in front of nearly every home. Where are they taking all of this contaminated stuff? You can't just dump it in the land fill, can you? Mold and housing for those who lost everything will be a major problem for a long time to come.

My brother spoke of the tent cities for those evacuated from schools - but when we rode through the grounds of Monmouth race track, last week "home" to thousands - they were gone. Where to? Of course some of these homes are summer homes to some, but the little homes and businesses? Where can they go? What can they do? When was the last time you saw a report or an article on the aftermath of Sandy?

JoanP · « **Reply #296 on:** December 11, 2012, 09:10:12 AM »

I appreciated the article on the difference between Protagonist and Main Character, Barb.

Quote

"The difference between the two is simple: The Main Character represents the audience’s eyes into the story, the Protagonist pursues the goal of the story...
the character who is driven to Pursue the Goal is the Protagonist."

If accepting this difference, I would conclude that Bilbo is the main character, but not the protagonist. The next question - who was the protagonist? Does there have to be one?

Was it Thorin?

Marcie, as I was reading an article in the US Today Weekend magazine on the way home yesterday. It was mainly an article on the British actor who plays Bilbo... He says he hadn't read The Hobbit until he heard he might play the part - "I was suprised by the tone of it. I didn't think it would be as humorous as it was. I thought it might take intself a bit too seriously."
I thought that was promising. He gets it! I might want to see the movie after all - just to see his portrayal of Bilbo. He is quoted in the article -
"No real-life hero ever thinks he's heroic. Bilbo finds himself in situations where, either for himself or his comrades, he has to act. That's real heroism."

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #297 on:** December 11, 2012, 09:36:16 AM »

last minute details this morning - still need to run down to Fed EX - I wonder also where they all went - with Katrina we were all taking them in our homes - some for months both Here in Texas and in Northern Louisiana - many stayed so that we have all sorts of influence now in Austin as they brought with them their music adding to ours and their special foods - in summer there are these impromptu ice cream type stands - I have not tried it yet but there is an ice cream and a drink that folks from New Orleans included in their life.

As to the protagonist - I think we would have to decide what was the goal - re-reading chapter one Thorin had his goal all set - Bilbo was a come along but then behind the enterprise you had the feeling it was Gandalf running the show... Next time I check in the discussion will be over but I am anxious to see who y'all decide in the protagonist of this story...

JoanP · « **Reply #298 on:** December 11, 2012, 10:08:17 AM »

Quote

"...had the feeling it was Gandalf running the show"

Of course he was, Barbara. What was Gandalf's role? Was he in fact the protagonist then?

He was right there with Bilbo from beginning to end every step of the way. Not interested in treasure. Refused to take any Turned down the buried gold and silver, telling Bilbo he would probably find a use for it... which we now learn, he did. Maybe we have to read on into the Lord of the Rings to learn what motivates the wizard?

What a contrast between the elves warm and joyful welcome...and Bilbo's own welcome back to the place he was born and bred. They thought he had died, he's been gone for a year.

Quote

"Not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong."

It was GREED again, wasn't it? Bilbo knows what Greed can do. This isn't too much of a surprise to him. He has learned that during the past year.

Babi · « **Reply #299 on:** December 11, 2012, 10:10:11 AM »

Aren't there story lines where the protagonist pursuing the goal is also the one
telling the story? And in "The Hobbit", what do you think is 'the goal'? I note that
BARB asks the same question. Many of the characters have their particular goal. But what is the author's goal?

And now, home at last! Reputation in tatters, of course. And declared dead, with relatives and neighbors coming to buy everything he owned, and the Sackville-Baggins happily making plans to move into his nice home. Upset everyone terribly by Bilbo's return.
And how must these old neighbors now appear to Bilbo, after all he has seen
and done? I can see that they no longer have as much in common. Their attitude
is certainly narrow and unfriendly...except for the children, who are enthralled.
On the whole, I find it reasonable that Bilbo would be quite content with the
comforts of his home, and the inquisitive children, and the occasional visitor.

marcie · « **Reply #300 on:** December 11, 2012, 10:41:19 AM »

I'm still thinking about whether I agree with the alternative definition of protagonist presented in the article but, whatever we call those characters, I do think it's interesting to figure out the goal of this story and the roles that the characters played in bringing about the goal or trying to prevent it from happening.

Lorac625 · « **Reply #301 on:** December 11, 2012, 01:40:19 PM »

I am not certain,but I think Tolkien's goals for The Hobbit might have changed when he decided it was "only" a prequel to TLOTR.
I read Pat Murphy's There and Back Again. Will there be discussion?

JoanP · « **Reply #302 on:** December 11, 2012, 07:42:51 PM »

Quote

"And now, home at last! Reputation in tatters, of course."

So true, Babi...this is not the hobbit we met before the adventure - afraid to turn away anyone from his door at any hour...respectable, predictable. He dresses more flamboyantly, now-look at those gold buttons, his bejeweled belt! He fraternizes with elves, writes songs and poetry too. His old neighbors call him "queer." Is this what Gandalf meant when he told him "Something is the matter with you. You are not the same hobbit that you were?"

I thought he had changed when he obviously didn't care what neighbors thought... His new- found confidence. Prefers to entertain elves! And that ring! He still has it in his pocket - even uses it to avoid unwanted guests!

An interesting question, Lorac. Is this the ring of the title Lord of the Ring, do you think? ? Will Bilbo be a main character in the upcoming trilogy?

JoanP · « **Reply #303 on:** December 11, 2012, 07:49:42 PM »

I was surprised to see this drawing by the author himself at the end of this chapter in the annotated edition.

marcie · « **Reply #304 on:** December 11, 2012, 09:09:40 PM »

The picture surprises me too, Joan, although I like it. Somehow I saw Bilbo's hobbit hole with a lower ceiling and more stuffed with furnishing and things.... more cozy. And we talked before about this fellow not looking very hobbit like.

JoanP · « **Reply #305 on:** December 11, 2012, 10:17:33 PM »

Well he does have those hobbit feet...

Under the drawing, there's an observation by some Tolkien enthusiasts on the discrepancy between the relative proportions of Bilbo and the door, which I found amusing:
"As drawn the hobbit would have had to stand on a chair to reach the knob."

It is a much grander hall than I had imagined too.

Babi · « **Reply #306 on:** December 12, 2012, 10:13:02 AM »

Oh, thanks for mentioning the Pat Murphy book, LORAC. I knew "There and Back Again" only as the subtitle of "The Hobbit". I was definitely getting confused about a possible new discussion.

I was glad to see the drawing, JOANP, as it explains how big people like Gandalf
could come in. But it does seem very strange that a small hobbit would want such
a huge place. I also noticed that he could barely reach to latch his door and would
need a ladder to wind his clock.

We close, appropriately, with a return visit from Gandolf. Who presents Tolkiens young readers with their final lesson: "You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in wide world after all!"
To which Bilbo cheerfully replies, "Thank goodness!"

marcie · « **Reply #307 on:** December 12, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »

Babi, I had overlooked the fact that human-sized Gandalf had no trouble in the hobbit house. I wonder if hobbits had many "tall" visitors.

The ending does provide a broader perspective on things.

JoanP · « **Reply #308 on:** December 12, 2012, 04:30:34 PM »

Remember Bilbo hosted 13 dwarves along with Gandalf in this hole at the beginning of the story.

I started the final chapter hoping to find the answers to two questions. What made Gandalf think that Bilbo would be helpful to the dwarves' cause? And then the question about the ring - how did Bilbo come into its possession - and what will he do with it back at the Shire? Neither of these questions were addressed in the last chapter - but I have an Appendix in the Annotated Edition - Appendix A written by Tolkien containing the article, "The Quest of Erebor," subtitled,
"Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the Dwarves."

The appendix follows chapter 19. If your copy doesn't have it, I'd be glad to share what I learned.

JudeS · « **Reply #309 on:** December 12, 2012, 04:42:16 PM »

Joan P
Interesting.
We both quoted what Peter Jackson said (My post #284. yours # 295) with different perspectives.

Fascinating that we all read this same article and story or book and see totally different things.
More so in this story than any of the others I have followed with this site for the last three or four years.

I asked myself why is this so?
Of course there is no one definitive answers but these are some possibilities.
1) Attitudes toward Science Fiction.
2) Attitudes towards Children's Literature.
3)Personal experience with the world of Elves , Hobbits, Dwarves and Dragons.

Anyone want to add other reasons?

hats · « **Reply #310 on:** December 12, 2012, 04:46:50 PM »

Sorry I didn't complete The Hobbit with all of you. I hope it's still possible to read the discussion in the archives. Congrats to all of you who made the whole journey.

PatH · « **Reply #311 on:** December 12, 2012, 04:56:52 PM »

Lorac and Babi--"Are we going to discuss Pat Murphy's There and Back Again"? That depends on what anyone wants. I had suggested that it might be rewarding to read this light-hearted science fiction take-off right after reading the original. It wouldn't merit a long, detailed discussion like this, but we could do a short discussion, say a week or two, in any format people would like. It could wait until January if everyone is getting too tied up in the holidays. It's real science fiction, stands on its own if you haven't read The Hobbit. So would anyone like to do it? I'm open to suggestions as to timing and length. I'm guessing this would interest only 3 or 4 people at most, but that's enough for something short.

My post 202 in this discussion gives details of how to get the book.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #312 on:** December 12, 2012, 07:42:58 PM »

Catching up on all the email that piles up when you travel - and this was in the pile that I thought was perfect as an explanation of the Hobbit -

TRAINING WITH UNCERTAINTY

Many of us prefer practices that will not cause discomfort, yet at the same time we want to be healed. A warrior accepts that we can never know what will happen to us next. We can try to control the uncontrollable by looking for security and predictability, always hoping to be comfortable and safe. But the truth is that we can never avoid uncertainty. This not knowing is part of the adventure, and it’s also what makes us afraid.

marcie · « **Reply #313 on:** December 12, 2012, 09:39:28 PM »

Jude, could you say a bit more about the different perspectives? I didn't see you and JoanP so far apart in your posts about Bilbo's "heroism." I do, though, see some very different perspectives here on the book.

To your list I would add:

Quote from: JudeS on December 12, 2012, 04:42:16 PM

Fascinating that we all read this same article and story or book and see totally different things.
More so in this story than any of the others I have followed with this site for the last three or four years.

I asked myself why is this so?
Of course there is no one definitive answers but these are some possibilities.
1) Attitudes toward Science Fiction.
2) Attitudes towards Children's Literature.
3)Personal experience with the world of Elves , Hobbits, Dwarves and Dragons.

Anyone want to add other reasons?

-- different perspectives on morality
-- different experiences with the spectrum of literal to figurative language
-- different views on religion
-- and, to pick up from Barbara's last post, different comfort levels with the idea of uncertainty

marcie · « **Reply #314 on:** December 12, 2012, 09:40:57 PM »

Pat, I just recently got the book THERE AND BACK AGAIN, and I'd love to talk about it. I've just started it.

JudeS · « **Reply #315 on:** December 12, 2012, 10:54:12 PM »

Marcie
Thanks for adding the extra categories.
Thought of them but didn't want to overspeak my peice.
But this is another peice of paper I am writing on, now. So I will add:

1)What constitutes a good book...
2)Do Dragons exist or are they symbols of Evil or of What We Fear..
3) As children, what did we learn about sharing....
4)What we think of the use of invisibility.

Please feel free to add comments or opposing views or simply add to the list.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #316 on:** December 13, 2012, 02:32:18 AM »

You have me thinking and the differences in how we read and interpret a book that comes up for me is our different life experiences and what we value - some can even share similar life experiences but value different moral choices and behavior as well as, we can innately value different ways of expressing life from music and poetry to heroic action and so we pick up different aspects of a story that shed light on what we value. I also think a good piece of literature has many layers so that we can enjoy and notice the story line from its action to its philosophical messages. That is why I think our discussions are so rich - we bring our different life experiences and values to our read and then to the discussion.

Babi · « **Reply #317 on:** December 13, 2012, 09:54:48 AM »

By all means, JOANP. I would love to know what Tolkien wrote about it.

Oh, JUDE. Do tell me about any 'personal experiences' with elves, etc. That one
had never occurred to me! I would be delighted to hear all about it. And then, from
your next post, I think every child who ever read about 'invisibility' was enthralled
with the idea. Such fun to imagine what we could do if we could slip about unseen.

January would be a great time for the Pat Murphy book, PAT. With my daughters help,
surely I can locate a copy by then. I definitely want to read the book.

I think BARB has summed up the question quite accurately. The differences in how
we perceive a book comes from our own experiences and our own values, and the
person we have become because of them.

marcie · « **Reply #318 on:** December 13, 2012, 10:36:41 AM »

JoanP, yes, please do share some of the appendix with us!

PatH · « **Reply #319 on:** December 13, 2012, 01:38:50 PM »

At the end of the book, Bilbo says to Gandalf:

“Then the prophesies of the old songs have turned out to be true, after a fashion?”

“Of course!” said Gandalf. “And why should not they prove true? Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophesies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your own benefit?”

This sort of summarizes my take on the nature of Bilbo’s quest. It’s not really about him, he’s sort of an instrument of fate.

There is too much luck and coincidence for it to be really accidental. The clues are meant to be deciphered, and people are meant to be in the right place at the right time. It’s a little push to make success more likely.

Tolkien, in what he said was the most important passage in LOTR, said that the wheel of the world was turned by the small hand because the greater was looking elsewhere, and this is what Bilbo is doing in his small way.

“Roads go ever, ever on” and Bilbo has gone on with the road for a way, then stepped off to a safe haven, leaving the road to others. He has grown in the process, as maybe all of us do when we manage to do what’s needed.

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