Women's Issues

[rosemarykaye]

There was a very interesting article in our newspaper yesterday - written by a man, who supports the introduction of quotas for women on company boards.  He said he knew two high-flying women, one who agreed and the other who said this was unnecessary.  He said that in his previous incarnation as a top lawyer, he had seen so many of his male colleagues talk the talk about equality - until the women left the room, or the men were at one of their numerous networking places - golf club, etc - whereupon they immediately reverted to their ingrained sexist attitudes.  I must say this was also my experience when I was working in law - I didn't even need to leave the room, they were blatantly sexist about other women in my presence, and of course, if you didn't laugh you were a miserable old trout with no sense of humour....

Despite all this, one of these two females that he knew did not support the idea of quotas - I wonder why?  Was it to keep in with her male colleagues and not be thought of as - whisper it low - a feminist?

[Steph]

I like most of Jimmy Carter, but personally hated the Palestine one. No one seems to count all of the people murdered by the Palestinians..

[MaryPage]

I have been thinking and thinking and thinking and pondering ever since finishing reading However Long The Night (Aimee Molloy), and obviously it had a very profound effect on me.  This is the scenario I have come up with, based upon the African women seeming to be at one about "the tradition" going back thousands of years:

Men discovered (by some fluke accident no doubt) that they could magnify by a great deal the pleasure they enjoyed from the sex act if they removed the foreskin from their penises.  Being men, this became a matter of prime importance to them, and they made a religious ceremony of it for all males at puberty. Semitic tribes, in particular the Jews, made this an individual rite of passage, while African tribes tended to induct annual age groups into this ritual.  With some it started at birth, while others waited until around age twelve.  I mean, the woman who first said "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament" had it so very right.

With so much additional pleasure available to men, they wanted more and more and more sex.  They sought this in a number of ways, along the way making some of these such as plural wives and rape of enemy women legal, while sowing your oats afield and incest were religiously forbidden and slightly frowned upon among your peer group.  They also wanted to preserve the property aspect to having wives, and African men discovered they could accomplish this end by taking away the sexual pleasure experienced by females.  They did not care whether their "property" enjoyed or hated sex, just so long as they made it available to their husband owners.  So they arranged that there be operations with sharp tools to remove clitorises.  Then, having accomplished ascertaining their women would not seek sexual pleasure and their children would truly be theirs, they arranged that women, rather than men, would be the ones to perform these important rituals.  That way no man would look upon the private parts of their future brides, and it would become a tradition that no woman who had not had this genital mutilation would be acceptable as a bride.

[MaryPage]

In China, the impulse to keep their women from straying found another solution:  foot binding.  This cruel alteration of the body nature has given us hobbled women and literally kept them at home.  Again, women were selected to be in charge of seeing to it that all little girls had this done to them, and only women with these tiny feet they could barely function on would be acceptable to the entire group as possible wives.

Same thing.  Absolutely the same thing.  Just different solutions.

The women of Africa came to believe GOD intended girl children be mutilated, and no mother wished her beloved daughters to be anything other than that which was commanded by God and acceptable to possible husbands.

The women of China came to believe GOD intended girl children be mutilated, and no mother wished her beloved daughters to be anything other than that which was commanded by God and acceptable to possible husbands.

All very cleverly choreographed by men!

[Octavia]

Marypage,
When my husband and I were trying to decide whether to circumcise our first son, no doctor would do it. Our own doctor said it would reduce the pleasure in his sex life, and cause unnecessary pain. We weren't keen anyway, but asking to have it done, brought a lecture down on people's heads. I think circumcision is rarely done now, anyway.

[Steph]

Not so in the US.. circumcision is still relatively common.

[MaryPage]

Very common, I would say.

[Steph]

Today is fun... They have an all women crew today.Good for them. Jenna Bush Hager is developing nicely as a commentator.Who would have thunk...

[JeanneP]

Going back a ways in those posting of the Christmas Song sung in Romanian Church. Strange as a large population of Romanians are Gypsies. They should remember how many of them went up in smoke along with the Jews in the  camps. Thousands did. How soon the world forgets.  And much as been forgotten or not taught.

[Steph]

The Gypsy population seems to be not keen on any other population.. They obviously don't remember or care.

[MaryPage]

According to a book I read about the history of Gypsies (Romany), they care very much about how the Facists killed their numbers.  The thing is, they do not see a great deal of difference in that story from the history of their treatment in Europe.
In 1589 Denmark made a law that all gypsy leaders should be executed.
In 1630 Sweden declared all male gypsies should be hanged.
They used to cut off the ears of female gypsies:  in Moravia the left one, in Bohemia the right.
The Archbishop of Mainz proclaimed that each and every gypsy should be executed without any conviction, as their way of life was outlawed.
In 1725, a law was passed in Prussia that all male gypsies should be executed without a trial;  every single one over 14 years of age.
Just a skimming of the real history of these people.  Just a small bit.

[Steph]

Sounds interesting.. I guess my memories all involve my Dad saying each spring..Be careful the gypsies are here and sure enough, they would be camping somewhere not allowed and were prone to admiring our horses way too much and Dad would catch them, in the fields trying to see if the horse would  go with them..  My Mother would feed the children if they appeared, but if you let them in the house, you could guarantee that stuff would be missing. The ones my age never ever went to school.
Once I caught a boy on my pony and riding off through a fence. He insisted it was his and my Dad had given it to him./ Thank heavens for one of the workers who kept our garden. He came, got the boy off the pony and told him that if he found him on the property again, he would tell Dad and call the police, So my memores of them are not nice

[MaryPage]

They march to a different drummer, that's for sure.  The itinerant life style, with take what you can get along the way being the rule.  We have some communities, South Carolina being a state where there several enclaves, of rather permanent gypsies, and I can use that old saying about the purple cow, "I'd rather see than be one!"
There was a documentary about these a few years back.
Seems the men all leave in their pickups come Spring and make their fortunes over the warmer months, returning to their mansions in the Autumn.  Yes, MANSIONS!
These are the ones who offer to fix your roof or gutters or driveway, and rip you off.
Some call them "the Irish Travelers," and most call them "the Travelers."
Something in the culture does seem to teach them to be con men.  
Again, sadly, this is a generalization, and should not be applied to all.
But people are people, and I do not favor exterminating ANYone, nor will I hate!  Be amazed and appalled, I will, but hatred?  No.  I will hate attitudes, but the people, no.
There are just one whole lot of old white men of power I would like to put naked in the public square of every town in America and let folk laugh at them for a day.
Might do 'em some good!

[MaryPage]

In thinking about the approximately 800 years the Romany nomadic groups have been written about, and at the same time thinking about cultures formed within other exclusive tribes, I see similarities that seem to point to features of these societies that are bad for both them and those surrounding them.
Any group that is taught from birth to accept that those of their kind, and only those of their kind, are THE PEOPLE of a god, or the gods, or the universe, or what have you, is just flat out inviting discrimination.  They are exuding it toward others and causing their own people to have utter disdain for others, thus engendering lawless behavior toward others and engendering hatred toward their own kind from those very others.
Psychologically, the people of such cultures are crippling their own children by denying them any real knowledge of the ways of the countries they reside in, of the laws protecting both them and the peoples they regard as of no account, and of the nonsectarian general education available to them which would so help them to fit in, while at the same time preserving their own traditions.
Knowledge is everything.
Ignorance is so very damaging to all.

[BarbStAubrey]

MaryPage - problem you are talking about just about every religious affiliation that ever existed except perhaps a few of the Asian religions although, I understand from several Buddhist friends they too have various groups within Buddhism and they all think the other groups are worthless at best and vile at worst.

There is no cooperation or approval from various Christian groups for other Christian groups or from their ancient roots Judaism, who have no truck for Muslims and on it goes each thinking they are the special chosen ones and unless you abide by their rules, like the Amish you are shunned or put out or excommunicated or whatever the definition is to keep the other members pure.

[MaryPage]

I just don't think, though, that there is any other old closed society quite as closed to outsiders as the Romany.  I may be mistaken, of course.  You just do not hear of them leaving their people OR of them taking in others.  You do hear of them kidnapping babies and very small children and getting fresh blood and genes into their pool in that manner, but that is not quite the same as allowing in people raised in other cultures.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, you are right for people in the world the only ones that I know of that are as insular are the Amish but they stay put mostly working the land and they have more of their own babies than they can afford to buy farms for them when they grow up. Another set of issues but they do not vote or join the army or pay taxes - I do not know but I wonder if they pay sales taxes on the sales from the shops that have sprung up selling their merchandise. Except for the original problem they faced in Germany that got them to the US, Canada and Mexico they have not been hated as the Gypsies and they are not as old a group either.

Yes, there are many who have really been brutalized for their race and religion but then it seems to me that every traditional group keeps itself as it was by holding their members close and not being open and that keeps separation alive yet, I think traditional groups living within their old lifestyles is an addition to our society but it sure engenders suspicion by those not included.  

I thought the series done by PBS on the Amish was especially enlightening and wish that all groups that live out of the mainstream or from other parts of the world were explained as well as the producers explained the Amish.

[jane]

Another set of issues but they do not vote or join the army or pay taxes - I do not know but I wonder if they pay sales taxes on the sales from the shops that have sprung up selling their merchandise.

Barbara...It sounds like the documentary you saw was full of incorrect information.  


There are 9 other items listed as well that many outside of the Amish area seem to not know.



 6. Do the Amish pay taxes?
Amish and Mennonites do pay taxes like other Americans. However, because of their belief in the community’s call to help one another, including the elderly, in times of need, they do have objections to paying the social security tax. Only those who are self-employed have been exempt from paying social security taxes and regardless of whether or not they pay the tax, few accept the benefits. All other taxes are paid without question.

http://traveltusc.com/top-10-questions-about-the-amish/


Also

9. Is it true they don’t go to war?
The Amish and Mennonites believe that by resisting violence, they are following Jesus Christ’s example. They also believe in his exhortation to “turn the other cheek.” Because the Bible declares that Jesus did not resist the beating and crucifixion, the Amish and Mennonites seek to emulate him. Rather than serve in the military while the draft was still in effect, the two groups generally found alternative ways to serve their country by working in hospitals or some other form of community service.


http://traveltusc.com/top-10-questions-about-the-amish/


And other references you can check:
This from the county next to the one above and home to the largest Amish settlement in the world:
http://blog.garden-gate.com/2011/02/10-myths-about-amish-from-holmes-county.html




Q: Do the Amish pay taxes?
A: Yes. They pay all the taxes—income, property, sales, estate, corporate, school—that other people do. In fact many of them pay school taxes twice—for both public and private Amish schools. The US Congress exempted the Amish from participating in Social Security in 1965 because the Amish viewed it as a form of commercial insurance, which they opposed. They believe that members of the church should care for each others’ physical and material needs. Thus, most of them do not pay into Social Security or receive payments from it. In some states, the Amish have also been exempted from workers compensation (insurance for on-the-job injuries) for the same reason. See Government for more information.



http://www2.etown.edu/amishstudies/FAQ.asp

http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-pay-taxes/

You may not agree about their lifestyle choices or beliefs.  I don't, however, like to see misinformation spread about those who choose a life different from what most of us lead.

Jane

[Steph]

I grew up surrounded by Amish and yes, I agree, they do pay taxes, they do alternative or at least did alternative service, generally in health fields.. They pay in and get no benefits from social security.. or medicare. Or at least the ones I knew did.The community takes care of the elderly, sick, etc. I have a dear dear friend , who is Amish.She was sent away and trained as a nurse by the community and has spent her adult life living in the smallmedical center and caring for all.. She is also a midwife... I admire the Amish,, but I think the proverbial Travelers or Gypsies or hard to love.. At least when I was growing up and had horses and dogs, both of which they love to sort of spirit away.

[jane]

Steph....I, too, grew up near the world's largest Amish community (Holmes County, Ohio) and still live now in Iowa near a new community of Amish who split from their former Bishop over how much work the young men could do among the "English" [the non-Amish] community.  They're now often in our little town of 5,000 to shop at our grocery store and WalMart and FarmFleet.    They come occasionally with horses and wagon or buggy or more often in a van service.

Jane

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks for the info - I wonder if I mis understood and they were talking about Soc Sec but they had someone standing in front of a group of tourists that were going to get a bus trip through the Amish country and the guy said they do not pay taxes.

I was fascinated with the show and never had more than a passing realization of the Amish. I did visit a community of Mennonites in Mexico and learned the history of how they were forced from the US and Mexico accepted them - the town is funny in that all the signs, mostly blackboard for meals and other products is written in both German and Spanish since in town there are equally both groups of people.

I am conflicted with how folks can live in peace when many of these religious groups are not only very insular but some have this radical idea that others of the same cultural and religious persuasion should follow their conservative and traditional views. I do not see that as the ways of the little I know of either the Amish or the Mennonites but it has become rampant among the Christian Right in this country, in my own Christian persuasion that often shocks me and then in other parts of the world the battlefield is real between and among religious groups.

It is sad and a conundrum - where I admired the Amish lifestyle as presented by the series on PBS I did see it was emotionally damaging to those who leave the Amish community and to some of the women who stay which made me see this seems to be what happens in many families as the children go on to a life different than their parents. My daughter sees it all the time where she lives among the mountain families when the children change the concept that they cannot be smarter than their Dad and I had that pull when we became part of a professional lifestyle rather than working class lifestyle. Interesting to me is that it was only 3, 4 or 5 generations before that family moved across oceans and adapted a life that was not the traditional life of what they left.

Seeing both sides - the progressive and traditional in conflict makes me dwell on how they can come together to accomplish what both need.

Not going to war to me is not a rebuke but an observation - no one in my family was the right age during the wars so we do not have that experience either however, I wonder, if we believe in peace and the sanctity of life is that something we can feel good about if we decide others should do the fighting. There are many of us and many groups who avow peace that are able to live safe from warfare because of others. I do not know but looking at this nation as a large community, how do we think about tradition and progression, the individual versus the community etc.

Is it a fantasy that we had been able to live leaving each other alone or has this tug of war between differences always existed and we simply have a goal to live peacefully - here of late it seems the traditionalists have made the life of women less valued as well as gays - then I see how this is normal among certain religions which is what starts me on this whole question of traditional religious views.     

[nlhome]

My experience with the Amish and Mennonites in our area has made me uncomfortable with their choices. There seems to be a bit of opportunism in the way they take advantage of certain aspects of technology, especially the men.

 I do know some Mennonites who not only draw Social Security but also have no problem with Medicare or even some of the Medicaid programs. That's not wrong - they worked hard and paid their taxes, so they have just as much right as any other citizen.

[MaryPage]

I have a huge admiration for the Amish and all those like groups, BUT.  But I think their insularity is making very serious medical problems for them, and is yet another reason for not being so separated from the main stream flow of our civilization.  They are experiencing some rather severe genetic illnesses.

Inbreeding, to put it indelicately.  It is the same for human mammals as it is for all others.  Inbreeding causes problems.  That is the main reason for all of the "designer" dog breeds springing up these days.  They are trying to breed dogs without the problems our favorite "pure  blood" breeds are now experiencing.  Hips that fail early on in labs and German shepherds, for instance.  You did not see much of that when I was young, and now it has pretty much taken over and ruined those breeds, while other breeds suffer those and/or other physical disasters.

Yes, I truly believe insularity to be a huge mistake.  There is a fascinating article in NEWSWEEK, which has gone electronic and now my subscription comes to me on my iPad, about the large number of support groups springing up all over the country for Mormons who are leaving the church.  Seems they never even thought of leaving before, for the church was their everything.  But now they have computers and go on line and read things they never had access to before.  Well, I am not going to get into the particulars,  because I am not trying to point fingers or take sides or gloat or anything of that sort.  I am just fascinated, and it is yet another example of the wrongness of trying to sell any, ANY, given group on "facts" that do not fit with what can  be proved to be otherwise.  You can deny and deny and deny, but eventually, maybe not for hundreds of years, but EVENTUALLY you have to bend to Truth.  The Vatican and Galileo are a great example of this.  It took 400 years!

[Steph]

The Amish and Mennonites are funny in some ways. They don't have electricity in their homes, but often in their barns for milking and a computer to keep track of records.. They have a community phone in a small shed like an outhouse.. At least where I grew up, they still do.Some of the communities allow very plain cars, others no.. I would guess they can claim social security if they paid in, but the farmers would really never have this come up.
Leaving the community is hard, but there are large support groups in Delaware that help them. My grandparents took in several young males from the community when they wanted to leave the home farm. They worked on my Granddads farm and then went to work for my Dad in his Commercial construction company. Several of them went back to the community with an out of the community wife.This mostly does not work too well.

[MaryPage]

I actually saw that telephone thing up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, Steph.   Farms without electricity or phone back off the road, as farms often are, but a little wooden shed phone booth, looking just exactly like an outhouse from the outside, down by the mailboxes.  That is where they keep the telephone.  For emergency calls, such as police or firemen.  Too funny!
We have an Amish market on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays up at Annapolis Harbour Center.  They open at 8:30 on Thursdays and are closed and out of there by 3:00 on Saturdays.  They come down from Pennsylvania and stay in motels.  There is a special fleet of "Englishmen" who are in business just to drive them back and forth in vans.  So they all get to stay in motels with electricity and television and all the trimmings for 2 nights each week, and get driven back and forth in vans they cannot own and drive themselves!
And they are called the plain people, but I do not think this is all good plain common sense!

[MaryPage]

P.S. The food is GREAT, and I shop there all of the time.  They also sell furniture and other homemade stuff, and tons of preserves and such.  You cannot, I repeat, cannot beat their meats!  So good and so safe and so cheap!

[Steph]

I come from the Eastern shore, so I grew up on and adore Scrapple. And the amish are the very best makers.. The frozen stuff elsewhere does not taste right. Whenever I go back to Delaware, I have scrapple every single morning.

[MaryPage]

I am so accustomed to the fact that you have lived EVERYwhere, Steph, that I have never pinpointed your nativehood.

So you are from the DELMARVA, and in particular the DEL portion thereof?

Son in law Greg, whose construction company I labor on the books for, is building a gorgeous home in Rehoboth Beach, as I write.  For a client, not for himself.  Well, now that I have you fixed, at it were, I can tell you my star should be placed in the northern Shenandoah Valley of Virginia.  So hey there, Yankee Friend!  Waving at your place on the map from mine!

[Steph]

Actually I was born and grew up until marriage on the southern end of
Delaware.We refer to it in Delaware as south of the canal and it is quite southern.
A teeny little town,, Wyoming,Delaware which is about five miles south of the capitol, Dover.. Still mostly farms, lot of amish.. orchards, etc.

[mabel1015j]

I'm doing a presentation tonight "Invisible Women of the Civil Rights Movement" at the Alice Paul Chapter of NOW. Here are some of the resources i've used. The Washington Post site is particularly interesting since it gives you other good links to browse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/08/27/honor-the-dream-by-honoring-the-women-of-the-movement/

This USAToday site gives an interesting story of how women were sidelined at the '63 March on Washington. I found a quote from Dorothy Height who said the March event opened her eyes. "The men included women in the human family, but it was clear that they were head if the household."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/19/march-on-washington-women/2648011/

[Steph]

I always wondered about the civil rights movement.There were so really brave women, but the actual movement seemed to be very male.. The anti Viet Nam also, although as a quaker, I participated from our meeting house and that was equal as always.

[JoanK]

Steph: the leaders were all male, but there were plenty of women involved. In fact, some of the participants in the Women's Movement became active when they saw how sexist some of those in the Civil Rights movement were.

[MaryPage]

I am overcome with something I have just read about which makes absolutely no sense to me.  Not so much as a scintilla of sense.
It says that a number of Southern states, and the number is apparently growing, have instituted what they call a "fairness doctrine" in their SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS which consists of, "in all fairness to those who believe otherwise," stating that the scientifically proved facts about evolution and global warming are just theories, and may not be true at all.
Public education paid for by tax dollars is DENYING SCIENCE!
Can you Believe that?
I do agree with the policy of not mentioning that Santa Claus is a myth prior to the 4th grade, but this is for High School!
Oh Please tell me it isn't so!
What in the name of every good thing since time began has FAIRNESS got to do with FACTS?  And how can ANYone justify spending tax dollars to teach our children that myths may be true and that untruths they have learned are okay?

[jane]

MaryPage...I believe it's rather widespread, esp. in the so-called "Bible Belt."

Teacher Accused of Preaching About the Bible, Bashing Evolution and Calling Non-Believers ‘Stupid’ — and Now This Family Is Suing

A mother and father are suing a Louisiana school district in federal court, alleging religious harassment of their child and claiming that Christianity is routinely forced upon students.

Scott and Sharon Lane and their five kids, who filed their complaint against Sabine Parish School District in U.S. District Court on Wednesday, are being represented by the American Civil Liberties Union.

Further into the report:



The family claims that, in addition to proclaiming that people are unintelligent if they do not believe in God, the teacher reportedly told students that world was created 6,000 years ago, that the Bible is true and that evolution is an impossibility, according to the Post.

The complaint also alleges that she called the student’s Buddhism stupid during a lesson on the subject.

See entire article here:  http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/24/it-is-oppression-parents-sue-school-district-after-science-teacher-reportedly-called-people-who-dont-believe-in-god-stupid/


I've heard some of this comes from the misunderstanding of the word "theory" and not comprehending what the scientific community means by that word.  Another element is probably those who believe in what I guess is called Biblical literalism.

[MaryPage]

I do not understand why, when true and real facts are so very important to the SURVIVAL of our species, and when history and science show us that most species have become extinct, human beings with working brains up their under their skulls will cohere as a group and become downright suicidal in their intense insistence upon clinging to their pieced together over the millennia mythological beliefs!
Fundamentalist Christians seem to be doing this very thing.  So do Mormons.  And neither one of those groups seem to stop and contemplate that suicide bombers are actually trying desperately to hold on to and have remain dominant in their world THEIR OWN SET OF BELIEFS!
Then there is the Vatican, trying to hold on to THEIR control and sense of the world as it should be, as opposed to what it is and the sins THEY have committed against the very society who trusted them.
Now the Grand Old Party of the Republic seems to be committing their own brand of suicide.  Cutting their own throats in order to continue insisting upon a system of economics that can only bring us another failure of huge proportions such as 2008 (Bush) or 1929 (Hoover).
People suffer in large numbers when leaders remain intransigent.  People thrive when leaders learn and understand and apply facts in the field.

[MaryPage]

Lemmings.  Lemmings is what these groups consist of.  Millions of otherwise fine men and women blindly following their leadership right OVER the cliff!

No doubt they take great comfort in their numbers;  their togetherness.

[Steph]

I live in Florida and know that you would never believe the number of letter writers to the newspaper, who simply cannot grip evolution.. So sad .

[mabel1015j]

Marypage - you might want to check out booktv.  They are talking about Imagine: Living in a Socialist USA. Frances Goldin, 89 yrs old, still an activist, is on the panel. It's 9:55 and it just came on, but you can see it online or maybe later today on tv if you miss it now

[MaryPage]

Oh Jean!  I missed it.  It is 11:41 here, and I just finished watching my morning talk shows.  Sunday morning church for me is CBS then ABC then CBS again and then NBC.  Sunday Morning and then George Stephanopolous and then Face The Nation and then Meet The Press.  Have to keep up, you know!
My favorite, well, let's face it, the ONLY sport I fancy in the Olympics was due to come on this morning.  Still waiting to hear if the Jamaica Bobsled team made it.  One can always hope!

[Steph]

The hockey game was spectacular.. not even for a medal, but oh wow.. and the crowd went mad..