Author Topic: Women's Issues  (Read 392160 times)

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1440 on: July 02, 2014, 05:03:07 PM »
Precisely.
There can be no question but that the VA needs reform, but one thing I have heard on the news and read in the papers over and over and over again is that at LEAST 90% (ninety per cent) of our veterans are getting good treatment.  As for the problems, they go waaaaaay back.  It seems to me I have been hearing about them for at least 35 years;  probably longer.
I don't think one single veteran should experience anything other than the very best and speediest treatment possible.  The VA needs fixing!

mogamom

  • Posts: 9719
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1441 on: July 02, 2014, 06:33:55 PM »
I think the difference here with the VA is that her husband had not even been given his first visit.  It's not like he had insurance he was using regularly and they just responded late to a death notice; he never got seen to receive treatment for his brain tumor because he was on a waiting list.  Very different.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1442 on: July 02, 2014, 07:17:03 PM »
Its more than VA - I was divorced from this man in 1990 he finally died in 2009 or 2010 - he was never in the service and I still get mail from both his health insurance company that includes an annual summery and the company that he used to insure his vehicle wanting a renewing check and this year, mail from the State about renewing his drivers license as well as, various companies wanting him to consider a reverse mortgage although, his name is not on any legal papers since the divorce and I changed my last name - his name appears no where on any service or document associated with this property and yet, I keep receiving this mail that i toss and always have tossed.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

  • Posts: 9719
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1443 on: July 02, 2014, 08:38:22 PM »
But that's not the same thing either.  The point is that he died  while he was waiting to BE SEEN by the VA!  He never got off the waiting list.

mrssherlock

  • Posts: 2007
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1444 on: July 02, 2014, 09:04:10 PM »
Words fail me to describe how I feel about the treatment of veterans.  America asks so much, sometimes the ultimate, and in some cases treats them like beggars when they return.  They are entitled to our aid and comfort after they have been through the hell that is combat.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1445 on: July 03, 2014, 09:15:26 AM »
I have no argument if you don't believe in abortion, but I have a huge argument if you say I must obey and play only by your rules. I think that I should be in charge of my body.. no one else.. I think it is hard for the employees of any large company to grip they are not covered for some thiings. I especially think there is something wrong with a company who is supposedly religious that they cover Viagra and the like, and don't cover IUD's. Some people cannot use other methods of contraception.. Our country and the conservative judges on the supreme court worry me.. Old men have no right to determine the destiny of the rest of the people. especially if you have a religion that does not like the idea. Religion and law are two entirely separate things.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1446 on: July 03, 2014, 10:44:52 AM »
Well, precisely!
You follow the rules of YOUR religion, with all acceptance and peace from me, and allow me the liberty to make my own medical decisions with the knowledge and assistance of a good ob/gyn who does not have to live IN THIS COUNTRY under the fear of death by religious vigilante!
We guarantee every citizen of this country the right to privacy, and we scream bloody blue murder when imagining our government has enough people on the payroll to listen in to our phone calls and read our emails, but we become mouth foaming maniacs over allowing a woman medical assistance in the matter of the workings of her womb.  HER womb!  The one she was born with and will carry the rest of her life!  The most private and intimate parts of her body and of her bodily functioning are YOUR business?  Because of YOUR religious beliefs?  I don't think our constitution allows for MY religion to interfere in your private homelife, and neither does yours give you the right to interfere in mine!
I have suffered the heartbreak of one stillborn baby (cord around the neck) and 3 miscarriages.  I wanted each one of those desperately.  I have never had, nor sought, an abortion.  But by golly, it is all MY business, and I will fight for the right of doctors to advise and women to choose.  Some are even advocating a whole police the women department that will check out every reported stillbirth and miscarriage to see if they need to charge the woman with MURDER!  As if there is not enough heartbreak when those things happen!  I still maintain if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a Sacrament! 

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1447 on: July 03, 2014, 11:26:51 AM »
I was horrified to watch those free, liberty loving citizens of a town in California who stopped those buses full of children who were being brought in for processing, and only for processing, before being sent on to other destinations.  I mean, they were not going to be dumped in THEIR town;  but they would not even allow them in!
Thank god a neighboring town welcomed them with open arms!
I wonder if these people, yelling and screaming through their bullhorns, stop to think (well, DO they ever think?) about the billions their tax dollars spend on relief for the men, women and children in refugee camps all over this planet?  There are millions in the tiny little country of Jordan, alone;  and we help to supply tents, water, food, medical services, clothing and so on.  Why can we help the folks in OTHER parts of the world and feed THOSE children with tears of empathy in our eyes, and yet we cannot help the children of the peoples just to the south of our own borders?  Why can't WE set up refugee camps?  Some of these small, grade school aged children have walked a thousand miles to get here SO THEY CAN LIVE!  Their mothers did not abort THEM, which suits these anti-immigrant minded people just fine, but then, when there is complete unrest and chaos in their countries and they send their children north in search of a safe haven, they want to send these children right back, TO BE KILLED!  Hey, I am having trouble with the definition of murder here.  It is wrong, some say, to "murder" something not as big as this o, but perfectly acceptable to murder these hordes of little children who say the gangs running their home towns are killing children right and left?  I just cannot find the Christian love in this behavior.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1448 on: July 03, 2014, 11:39:19 AM »
whoops only now see another post - this was my reaction to your earlier post MaryPage - I think the deal is they do not want to pay for your choice - and the way health insurance is written and the fact that they as a company have to be a party to making that payment they have objected - on that score Ginsburg is correct - there are parts of Sharia Law I object to as do others and so if a Muslim owned company wants to opt out because the health insurance policy does not fit their religious Sharia Law regardless who is hired and what their religious beliefs than this is precedent that says they can do just that. What this is doing is fracturing this nation and opening again issues of religious education following state requirements etc etc.

The issue that is current has hit a nerve with many of us but the broader picture is one to be concerned over that would gp beyond our outrage of having thought this fight was over - With Congress so busy infighting we cannot turn to them to make adjustments.

Those folks focusing on the outcome of either choice or no choice there is so much emotional reaction and that tie has been made so strong I do not know what will break it because for most folks who want women to have freedom of self determination are not thinking about abortion as if a willy nilly choice of convenience, in fact few wanting freedom for women to make their own choice about their body are even thinking at all about abortion - they are thinking of how to have the freedom to be a full citizen with the rights and power of self rather than, be a subject to the power of others through the state and through politics.

It is too close to the Soylent Green concept when others think of controlling women's bodies - they attempt to assume all women's bodies are the same with no room for differences as if we are all endowed with a cookie cutter reproductive system that could, like a factory be tooled in the same way, making OBGYNs unnecessary since they can be replaced with a law that controls, without the OBs special education, how society with law can administer women's reproductive health care.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1449 on: July 03, 2014, 11:42:07 AM »
Those up in arms about the kids remind me an awful lot of those who were instrumental in turning back the boat load of Jews trying to escape and who ended up back in Europe to be sent to the concentration camps.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

  • Posts: 9719
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1450 on: July 03, 2014, 11:56:43 AM »
Those children were full of disease and should have been treated before being moved.  And HSA is not allowing inspections - even by congressmen on the oversight committee who happen to be attempting to visit a federal facility in their district?  Why?  Public policy has caused this mess.  These children deserve better - as do the Border Patrol agents, and citizens of these towns over-run (ranchers are being threatened by drug smugglers as well).  Let's ENFORCE EXISTING IMMIGRATION LAW before blaming communities who fear for the safety of their children.

The argument that 'a woman has a right to do what she wants with her own body' is no longer operative; actually, it was never true since NOONE is given that 'right': suicide is still illegal in most places, as is illegal drug possession/use, etc.  And I don't think anyone appreciates a pregnant woman drinking or taking drugs that are contraindicated for the health of the baby?

Anyway, science now agrees with the teachings of most orthodox religions - that life begins at conception;  and we're left with a conundrum since people are under the impression that abortion is legal (Roe v Wade was a decision regarding the privacy of a woman with her doctor - which is hardly private any more with public facilities).  The new argument is that all life is NOT of equal value - an argument that should concern liberals deeply, especially with the government having so much more influence in health care.  (I actually heard a self-proclaimed liberal man making the case for the AHCA that, because the Supreme Court has now extended the notion of imminent domain to the government's right to take property if someone wants to develop the land in a way that would enhance tax revenue, that that argument could be used in health care: someone deemed of more value to the community would get preference over health care resources, including transplants.) 

At any rate - no one is being denied contraceptives (I don't know that Viagra is covered?  Where did you hear that?).  And the contraceptives will still be free, fully accessible.  But a man who started a business in his garage in the '70"s and holds a deep faith which includes not wanting to be complicit in taking human life, has a right to express that faith in his daily life: the Constitution guarantees him the right of free expression.  Again...this decision does not affect the employees IN ANY WAY!  And it never should have gotten to the Supreme Court.  What right does anyone have to infringe on his religious views?  Hobby Lobby does not force anyone to work for them.  Hobby Lobby follows a Christian ethic in their dealings with customers AND employees.

I guess I also see this from another side.  As a Master's level psychiatric nurse I often counseled women on the other side of an abortion.  Abortion destroys more than an unborn child: it harms women, families, community.

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1451 on: July 03, 2014, 12:02:34 PM »
And to die there.  To Die There!  The whole shipload on the Saint Louis, some nine hundred plus souls, refused entry into this anti-semitic country and sent back to Germany to die in those gas chambers.  Men, women, children and babies.  On the SAINT Louis!  I wonder what the original saint, for whom the ship was named, would have thought!
Have you ever pondered the thought that we are told by men that God opposes abortion.  Yet we are told that life and death are in the hands of God.  And then, millions upon millions of women on this planet become impregnated every single month, only to have the fertilized egg pass right through the uterus and down the toilet, without them ever having realized.  Are these all dead little god-aborted American citizens?  Did God decide my beautiful baby boy should be born dead?  Did he decide I had to get all happy and excited 3 more times, only to lose those little U.S. citizens, as well?  Maybe someone else's god.  Mine feels bad about my heartbreak.  Oh, and mine did not cause my distress.

mogamom

  • Posts: 9719
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1452 on: July 03, 2014, 12:12:23 PM »
I tried to read all angles on an issue.  This is a response to an article in the Huffington Post,  I had a hard time with some of what sounded like sarcasm, but its basic message is spot-on:

http://www.redstate.com/2014/07/02/huffington-post-many-catholics-supreme-court/

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1453 on: July 03, 2014, 12:24:15 PM »
I'll take issue with your last line Mogamom about abortion harming women, families and communities. I know some women who have had abortions for a variety of reasons and all of them have been perfectly healthy afterwards, as well as their families. I don't understand how a women having an abortion can harm communities.

I have been an escort at Women's health clinics and the anger and hatred of the opposition, who don't know why any individual woman is going into the clinic but attack all of them, is very harmful to the individual and to the community within hearing distance. Communities (taxpayers) must provide police officers to protect people who are behaving in a perfectly legal way from physical harm by the opposition.

I have no qualms with people believing however they believe along the spectrum of Choice to Prolife, but the disrespectful, vitriolic, hateful protests are abhorrent to me. I also find that sometimes those same people are not at all helpful to women who keep their pregnancies or to the children who result. They are often anti-welfare, anti-public day care, or any other services that might be provided to women who have their children, including the health services that the clinics provide. They are also sometimes the same people who support the death penalty and stand-your-ground laws. That hypocrisy confounds me.

I would be interested to know where the Green family stands on those other "life" issues. It would please me if they stood for "life" in all issues.

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1454 on: July 03, 2014, 03:20:23 PM »
To be Catholic or not to be Catholic does not apply in many, many cases.  I have loads of family who are Catholic, and a myriad friends who are, as well.  I also have nuns in my family, on both sides.  Every one of them, male, female and nun, are Pro-Choice.  At the Catholic High School my one daughter teaches at, when she started there over 20 years ago and there were still nuns teaching and running the school and living in the convent attached, most of the nuns were all for women priests and were for contraception and Pro-Choice.  Well, you see, their own mothers had used birth control!  The very last nun left that school in June of 2013.  My daughter had a dinner party to wish her farewell.  She went to the Mother House, and the Church is using the convent for other purposes now.  Sad to see how things change and progress.  Bottom line, a huge confrontation is coming down the road at a fast pace.  Between the deeply spiritual women who work without cease throughout their lifetimes to tend to the sick and the poor and the children and all those in various stages of need, and the men who insist the nuns and sisters must bow and scrape to their superior male dictates.  One of my dearest classmates from Visitation (16 of us graduated, and now we are 4) has worked hard for Pro-Life for simply eons now, and I love her for her dedication to and zeal for her cause and respect her work, but even she favors the nuns over the priests.  We shall see.  Or not, since we are of an age to kick the bucket before we see the passing of time resolve some of these conflicts.  There are so many things I will feel resentful at not knowing the outcome of.  It is like having a really great book have to be put aside before you can see how things turn out!

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1455 on: July 03, 2014, 05:29:37 PM »
Interesting how everyone wants to forget or shove under the rug the Vatican Commission on Population that was excluded from Vatican II by Pope Paul VI - the commission met for over 2 years and included some 70 Bishops and Cardinals as well as 6 lay couples - may not have my numbers accurate since i think the total was 79 in attendence - all but 5 of those in the commission agreed that birth control was an important aspect for the health of the family and the community - the 5 very conservative Cardinals were from the Curia and used their political acumen to see that the outcome was reversed - you can find the books on Amazon. 

Turning Point: The Inside Story of the Papal Birth Control Commission, & How Humanae Vitae Changed

http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Point-Control-Commission-Humanae/dp/0824514580/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404422729&sr=1-1&keywords=vatican+commission+on+birth+control
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1456 on: July 04, 2014, 09:08:08 AM »
Actually today being the birth of our country,,, why oh why do the SCOTUS not pay attention to how and why this country was founded. Our original founders wanted and fought for total freedom of religion..The right to believe or not believe.. They tried hard to set the constitution for this, but all these years later, I find their original intent being subverted. Like Marypage, I have never had or wanted an abortion, but I truly believe my body is just that.Yes, Viagra and other male enhancement drugs on in the prescription category and at reduced rates at Hobby Lobby among other places.. They are certainly free to do what they want. I however am also free to never enter their doors again. Abortion does not harm anyone. Many women agonize over an impossible choice . I feel for them and want them to do whatever is right. As to suicide arguments.. it truly depends on what state you live in or country. It is possible in many areas. So ... don't use that as an excuse for not having control of your body.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

nlhome

  • Posts: 984
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1457 on: July 04, 2014, 09:17:10 AM »
I agree, Steph.

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1458 on: July 04, 2014, 09:37:34 AM »
Self Determination.  It is what nations have been fighting for since the earliest villages at the dawn of history.  It is what men fight for, and we, as women, are NOT their pawns.

On this 4th of July my memory scans all of the celebrations of this day since my early childhood.  Burning snakes first thing in the morning.  Firecrackers.  Sparklers.  Fountains. Parades and bands.  Sitting on blankets watching fireworks.  Also, my second husband died of colon cancer on this day 17 years ago.  My children and I remember him.  He, too, loved the fourth, though Christmas was his favorite holiday celebration.  Bless his boots, he was a dedicated Feminist!  We were married for 34 years.  For me, the best was yet to come in the form of my third husband, a man we both knew.  My first husband (prostate cancer) knew him, as well and all.  Who knew?  I sure didn't.  

On this day in which we celebrate the self determination of our nation and of all mankind, we still must only hope that one day it will also be acknowledged as the right of womankind. My body and all of my bodily functions are my private and inviolable property.  Do not touch.  Do not make laws concerning.  Do not regulate.  My judgment rules.  I am in charge. I am not a lesser slavelike being whose rights are to be determined by a committee of men.

Pass the ERA and make me an equal citizen of this republic!

mrssherlock

  • Posts: 2007
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1459 on: July 04, 2014, 10:59:40 AM »
This abortion discussion could have been heard, almost word for word, in  classes I attended in the 70s.  Economics, religion. individual psychologies, culture, biology-all these are factors in our expectations about the role of women.   
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1460 on: July 04, 2014, 01:02:39 PM »
Seems those who have a problem with women's self-determination always come back to the emotions of a healthy fetus that is to be protected above all else - as Sister Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun says, she has never met a women who had to have an abortion who did not need it.

What amazes me is the emotional protection for a fetus and yet, fully formed young children are to be sent into harms way without a similar emotional protection with crowds waving signs at the border to stop threatening the lives of children - and on that event, why are we not asking Canada for help - they have the same shame and guilt as the US about turning back the Jews on the St. Louis that half of those on that boat were killed in the concentration camps - if we do not want to live with shame than why not make a continental effort to place these children out of harms way.

Which leads me back to the viewpoint that it is all about a fetus and abortion rather than self-determination - then why oh why is the control of Birth a problem - we are not talking fetus now we are talking the possibility of a sperm entering a womb - the argument is only emotional - with no thought of a woman having rights only as a biological animal. Not as a wild or domestic animal but similar, without self-determination, denying a woman of her God given will power to choose. I guess folks are not willing to leave it to God and want to push God out of the way to take over God's job denouncing what they consider sin and making sure that even those who need an abortion are punished because God may not punish. When it comes to impregnated women they do not trust God.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1461 on: July 04, 2014, 02:06:49 PM »
Well Barbara, I like totally agree with you.  We agree with one another.  But I have to put out there on the table again this question:

If God indeed takes such an interest in every tiny aspect of our lives, as opposed to just having created this universe and then sitting back, as it were, to see what develops and what we do with what we have been given, and folks are correct that God does not want any fertilized egg to be taken from a womb and discarded, then WHY does God allow millions upon millions more spontaneous abortions to occur each and every month than fertilized eggs that stick?  Doctors and other scientists claim that multimillions of women conceive every month and the fertilized egg leaves the fallopian tube and travels down through the uterus without grabbing itself a place in the wall of the womb in which to grow and develop into a baby.  It is thrown out.  Discarded.  Usually into the toilet or a kotex or whatever sanitary arrangements apply.  And I ask, if God wills everything, then God wills more spontaneous abortions than our heads can image without getting completely dizzy.  Just doesn't add up, just doesn't make sense, to proclaim all these personhoods existing only to be swished away into our sewer treatment facilities, ending up in our water supplies.  Are we drinking a myriad of teensy souls in our every glass of water?

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1462 on: July 04, 2014, 02:42:00 PM »
Step back MaryPage and smile - I love it - we are regenerating ourselves with a glass of water - I love it - now we can be serious again...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1463 on: July 04, 2014, 07:47:11 PM »
Well, I am a happy citizen this 4th of July night.  It seems my fellow Americans in Marietta, California saw and heard the news of those buses full of children being stopped by those yelling and screaming townfolk, and they turned out in huge numbers for today's buses.  Three to one FOR THE CHILDREN!  This is most definitely a God Is Good moment!

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1464 on: July 05, 2014, 01:02:05 AM »
That's great news MaryPage. I hadn't seen that news story. Thanks for some GOOD news.

Jean

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1465 on: July 05, 2014, 07:44:12 AM »
I note from this mornings paper that I did not spell the name of that town correctly.  It is Murrieta, California.  I thought I was hearing them say Marietta.

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1466 on: July 05, 2014, 09:46:31 AM »
I am truly bothered however by the evil that sends people to the towns and tells mothers and children that the us will automatically makes them citizens. It is wrong and horrible. Their countries need to become real places and care for their citizens. The U.S. should not be caretaker for the world.  I know how
Florida is suffering from the influx and the arguments of making everything available in Spanish.. If I moved to their country, would they put it all in English for me.I hardly think so. We must somehow make central and south America responsible for their citizens and making them safe.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1467 on: July 05, 2014, 12:44:03 PM »
I think that is it there are so few places in the world that are safe - all there really is, is the US and Canada - I wondered why we have not contacted and made arrangements with Canada to help with these fleeing folks - can you just envision that journey these kids are making and moms with toddlers - sheesh Makes you appreciate the jammed packed boats that many of our ancestors trusted their lives to as they came and were dumped all over the coastline - Ellis Island on the east coast only opened in 1892 and by then there were large steam ships.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1468 on: July 05, 2014, 04:07:18 PM »
Imagine being ten years old and walking a thousand miles to try to find freedom from hunger and fear after having a gang mark you for death and telling you and your family so.

That is what I heard our Secretary of Home Security say is the reason a lot of these children have come.  That, IMHO, makes them refugees, not immigrants.

I have nightmares just imagining myself a child in that situation.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1469 on: July 06, 2014, 03:20:43 AM »
Great article reprinted by Daily Koz - the real issue about contraception.

. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/02/1311342/-What-the-battle-over-birth-control-is-really-about#comments

When you have time go back and read the comments and remember how restricted women's worlds used to be. No tubals or hysterectomies without husband's consent. No teaching after 4 months of pregnancy, ect.

Was having dinner with a friend tonight who said that a huge insurance company that he worked for had a KNOWN policy of not hiring any women who were of an age of pregnancy into any power positions, and was true right into the 21st century!!!


MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1470 on: July 06, 2014, 08:47:17 AM »
It was not just a matter of husband's consent, either!  I had 3 daughters by my first husband, and then 1 son by my second.  David and I decided we definitely had enough children on our hands to care for and raise and educate and cause expense.  We talked it over, and were of precisely the same mind:  i.e., I should have my tubes tied or have a hysterectomy.  We approached my doctor, who was all for it.  Turned out, though, that this type of surgery had to be approved by the Board at Suburban Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland.  They said NO!  Their reasoning was that David only had the one child and he might later be sorry and want more.  We protested vigorously that we knew our own minds on this matter, but they were adamant.  We lacked the financial resources to travel further afield to find the relief from fear of further pregnancies which we sought.
Overpopulation is causing the end of life on this planet as we mammals have known it.  This universe is based on precise mathematical formulas, and when these are disturbed and the workings of nature go out of whack, all hell will break loose, which is precisely what is occurring now.  We have reproduced beyond all sense, and cannot sustain Peace, because men will fight for food, water and fuel when they lack these necessities.  We have poisoned our air and water and the soil in which we grow things, causing disastrous climate change.  We have emptied our aquifers of drinkable water, causing calamitous sinkholes.  We are close to setting up armies along our borders to turn back or shoot down refugee children seeking safety.
Our governing body is full of pompous men who oppose all forms of birth control or universal healthcare.  In their minds, children MUST be born, but then let them die rather than let a penny of THEIR riches go toward nurturing their lives.

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1471 on: July 06, 2014, 09:39:38 AM »
Yes, my husband and I decided in the mid 70's, our family was complete a due to my blood pressure problems, I was not a candidate for tubal ligation. so a vasectomy seemed a good solution. I actually had to sign a paper before the surgeon would do it.. amazing.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

mrssherlock

  • Posts: 2007
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1472 on: July 06, 2014, 03:34:55 PM »
Wow! Teacherken has given us a clear concise explanation of this conflict.  It should be pointed out that men are the victims of their own biological role to provide for the survival of mankind.  In the wild when a new male assumes control of female(s) he often begins by killing any young not of his siring.  If a woman can be sexual, controlling  her own fertilization, he can run the risk of having the care of another man's child, one who bears unknown genes, contaminating of his million-year line.  Consequently reports of a boy friend killing his girl friend's child not his own are all too common.  Men have a heavy burden to maintain genetic purity.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1473 on: July 06, 2014, 06:04:19 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1474 on: July 06, 2014, 06:15:12 PM »
And so, regardless of thousands of years of civilization with, we imagined if not hoped, we increased our philosophical reasoning that examines how we should live and have sex but rather, we should keep to the basic unthinking sex needs as if it was 8000 BC and earlier - hmmm

Or maybe we are supposed to Ok and repeat in our lives and make sure that other girls and women repeat in their lives the story of Lot and his incestuous sex relations with his daughter - or how women are only baby machines as our accepted thinking and as the bible suggests with the story of Jacob and Leah - since Leah, the unloved wife of Jacob, nevertheless bore him six sons and a daughter.

And so like a herd of, let's be kind and say deer, the males must fight as bucks so they can do their part to keep their line of heritage pure - interesting that this is attributed to the males, how about the females - is this yet another way to show the male is more noble because of course women are not mentioned as wanting purity of blood line suggesting we have sex willy nilly.

If this purity by men of their blood line is so than there would be no rape or neighbors having their way with young girls - it would justify incest though wouldn't it, with fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers - they sure do their part in keeping that heritage line pure. And of course the day after pill is not for these girls according to some and according to Hobby Lobby - of the two forms of contraception they object to, one is a day after pill that they fear may cause an abortion.

Of course many still decide it is the girls fault - that concept of girls not wanting purity of heritage I suppose - I remember at age 16 being thrilled because an older guy going in the fall to collage asked me out to a movie - before the movie was even over he was all over me - there is amazing strength that is beyond their normal strength and thank god it was a neighborhood theater where they knew me - the usher was the older brother of a friend who pulled him off me and then got a couple of guys that were his buddies to walk me home without saying a word but making it into a jolly walk. I was overwhelmed, shocked, humiliated, wondered if I should ever again let a boy even kiss me - too ashamed to even tell my mother and where my friend must have heard from her older brother she looked at me the next day but never said a word and neither did I. And so that is how easily date rape happens.

As to those girls who are drunk - do they really deserve having a child that they are attached to for the rest of their lives just because they had too much to drink and therefore were an easy target - the guys are not even made to finance this child similar in responsibility to a school loan that has more requirements and years of hardship to pay back - but the girl is blamed and receives a life time punishment just for drinking too much - even if adopted we read and see on TV the mothers and children searching for each other for years after - it never goes away all because a pill that would have prevented the sperm from doing its job is not given away.

Well I know I am talking to the choir - and I have to get out of this because it only reminds me of having no power and that is hitting my buttons - being angry at what happens just because we are girls does not seem to enter the consciousness of too many.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

  • Posts: 9719
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1475 on: July 06, 2014, 10:44:04 PM »
I was a child victim.  I am not a victim as an adult.  Nor do I blame all society, all white Christian men, all religions/mores/norms/taboos for restricting me in any way.  Nor will I allow the cancer of hatred to dictate and destroy my life.  

I am a free agent - and God is Sovereign, if He is God.  A spontaneous abortion, when I have done all I can to prevent it, is a result of a world opposed to God; man no longer bears His perfect image, yet is still the crown of creation.   If I kill the child God has Sovereignly ordained that I will be pregnant with, I usurp Him; it is me waving my fist in the face of God; committing an act of murder which I am commanded shall not be done; believing I know more than He does about my future, what population the world can hold -  saying that my limited understanding of the world, mankind, my own life, the life of that child - is greater than His.  To trust God is to believe that His plan is better than mine, isn't it?  Even if it isn't something I would have 'chosen' for myself.  Actions have consequences  and those consequences are not always physical or even immediately apparent.

My first experience with the idea of abortion was as a teen.  A girl in the class behind me became pregnant after being raped by her father who was drunk.  Abortions were still quietly done in those days - quietly between a doctor and patient. At first, as you can imagine, she was scorned.  But many peers surrounded her, included her in all their functions, including church youth group etc., supported her through labor and delivery and beyond.  I was ill and not in school for a year and a half but heard that she placed the baby for adoption - believing that though an evil had been done to her, she did not do evil to an innocent child; her integrity and self-respect were intact; the evil was clearly her father's.

I received a Master's degree in Community Mental Health Nursing and I have counseled women in every aspect of the issue.  I don't understand how another woman could believe that ending a pregnancy - allowing someone to enter your womb and remove a healthy growing person, is done without any residual difficulties.  Most of the women I met with - personally and professionally - were having real emotional problems sometimes decades later.  Many life events would trigger grief,  depression, even suicidal ideation - and not because anyone was doing them any harm, even when people were supportive.   Guilt is internal.  Individuals change over time, and they often regret 'choices' they made at a time they were particularly vulnerable, feeling fear/panic, not able to see far enough ahead to how carrying a child to term might actually work out.  And this choice is final.  No matter whether the woman finds a wonderful husband and has other children, she will never have THAT child.  A future marriage, the birth of their first live child, the date of the abortion, the due-date of the aborted child and so many other life events, even those that  should be a source of joy, are instead often heavily tinged with grief and regret.  

There are women who get an abortion because they are given an ultimatum by their husband/significant other; those relationships are often destroyed, even when the woman holds herself fully responsible for her 'choice'.  Children of those women may learn about the abortion and, even though they love their mother, there can be real pain - even rage - at being deprived of a sibling they never met.  A society, civilization, is weighed in how it treats its most vulnerable.  You can call this pregnancy a fetus, a bit of protoplasm, an embryo, it really doesn't matter WHAT you call it - everyone knows that this is a living human being; even the mother knows this. Men come to think that offering to pay for the abortion is the extent of their responsibility and society has given them that out.  Society becomes ever more crude and cruel, with less concern about anyone's else's life - only about limited resources, and everyone wants to be sure to get theirs.  There is much less emphasis on duty and self-sacrifice; life is cheapened.

And who do these women talk to?  If they try to talk about their feelings, they're usually met with people telling them that it was far in the past, they should get over it and go on with their lives, and, when these supportive remarks don't provide any relief, they resort to telling them that, after all, it was their choice - they didn't have to do it. These women know that, too.

 In MOST cases. a pregnancy can be avoided (rape, incest, the life of the mother are rare reasons for the 40 million abortions performed since it was believed to be legal).  Preventing a pregnancy is exercising self-determination; an abortion is determining someone else's life.  And, in mental health terms, it is much easier to forgive another the harm done to you, than to forgive yourself the harm you've done to another.  

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1476 on: July 06, 2014, 10:59:30 PM »
I cannot reconcile your words;  especially that you are a free agent and at one and the same time believe that God ordains your pregnancy and you must not change that and that same God ordained my miscarriages and stillbirth?  I could not possibly worship such a God.  Where were you ever taught that God wills everything that happens to you and punishes you and the whole world for the sins of others?  Seems to me that puts you and your entire philosophy between a rock and a hard place.  Not the Christianity I grew up with, that's for sure!  If I believed that God chose me to have all of that heartbreak, I would probably kill myself because I would be unable to continue to live with the thought of such a dreadful, hateful God.

But My God is the God of Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness. 

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11371
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1477 on: July 07, 2014, 01:54:30 AM »
I do not believe that happen-chance rules and we act as if we run our lives on happen-chance and therefore we should not use our God Given skills that offer greater assistance to protect a women from unwanted sperm - to me the great sin is blocking what God has given to us, a medical breakthrough, just like all the medical break throughs that have increased the value of life for everyone especially, those who in the past would have been inflicted with a disability - break throughs that came as a result of those who devote their knowledge and skills to accumulating more understanding of how the systems in the body function -

I also think there are many who use older coping mechanisms instead of empowering women so that girls/women do not believe they are responsible for what has happened to them - rather than take into account the guilt that is typical with all loss and all trauma the guilt is given a life that is nursed with other sets of choices denied.  

A girl/woman always had a choice, even before advanced medical assistance's she had risky unsafe choices including the choice to birth a child and leave it for others to raise however, that choice is for a women/girl to make - denying her that choice or denying her the medical break through that keeps a sperm from acting on an egg is denying the medical intelligence that, if God is everything and everywhere, the power of God would allow this medical intelligence rather than thinking some unholy intrusion acted on increasing knowledge. That kind of thinking would suggest that there is something wrong with the knowledge and skills that increase with each century as part of our history.  Most Christians believe every thing on this earth and every happening is either a piece of god or sent by god  - everything, person, happening can have two sides - fire can burn to heat and cook or burn to ash barns and people - atomic energy can be turned into a bomb or into power to light up a city etc. etc.

For as many women as you have helped keep their unwanted child there are many women who have made successful lives with the opportunities available to them after stopping the pregnancy and therefore they shared in the same opportunities as non-impregnated girls and women who never had to make the choice, to take on or not, the care of the results from someone's power over them.

I know we will never agree on what is best - my only concern is that a girl/women have the choice -

There is a greater sin when we manipulate by taking advantage of a girl by denying her fair and equal information as well as, denying her medical assistance to stop the sperm - no choice is control which is no different than being raped - and yes, like you, I have had too many to count advantages taken when I was a child - I was lucky and did not conceive - others in my family did and they had abortions allowing them to lead successful lives - years later they made children in love - they completed their advanced education and shared with a husband their love that created a child rather than someone using their power to get what they wanted with no regard much less love for their host or the child conceived - after the medical break throughs anyone who denies women this medical assistance is teaching girls/women to be co-dependent to the perpetrator's silence and to accept their own shame allowing them to buy into guilt that should not be theirs.

Again, yes, I do go on here spouting my viewpoint - it is just that I cannot accept yours - I have too much evidence that there are other ways - I have attended too many survivors meetings to believe that there is only the one choice that your experience makes you believe it the only healthy choice -

Bottom line I am saying that every women should have a choice - every girls/woman should be informed fairly, evenly and calmly about the pluses and minuses of her choice from both viewpoints - as to suggesting that by having the child this will stop PTSD, unfortunately, birth or not, PTSD continues as a given for the rest of her life - You learn that in survivors meetings from those who had the child - to deny girls/woman their choice is to me the crime seconded by anyone who attempts to stop her from acting on her choice.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1478 on: July 07, 2014, 08:55:38 AM »
Choice is the word.. That is for me. I want all women to have the simply luxury of choice. Men have that. If every single women who got pregnant could have a simply test to prove just what man did this,, do you think they would step in and help..dream on.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

  • Posts: 3725
Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1479 on: July 07, 2014, 09:24:59 AM »
I am certain the entire thinking world noticed that ALL of the women on the court voted one way and ALL of the men the other.

So it is still, in this so called modern day and century, that Paternalism in the form of men making all of the laws regarding the most personal issues of a woman's bodily functions, continues to be the case.  Hey Gals!  We need at least FIVE women on the Supreme Court!  At all times!

I just feel so tired and worn out with it all!  I had not only hoped, but expected that the ERA would pass, and women would make and observe their own laws about their reproductive years.  But not so.

Just to share, and not to preach or attempt to persuade in any way, my God created this and many other universes, and observes and waits to see how Her creations will adapt to and nurture what has been given.  I am certain, as are all of the astrophysicists today, that there are literally billions of other planets with intelligent life forms.  I imagine us as a humongous classroom of beings, with the Principal wondering who among us will succeed and wind up meeting others out there in the space between the stars, and who will fail miserably and become extinct.  And I think the species we call homo sapiens on this planet we call Earth are well along on the path to extinction.  We do not do this deliberately, but by clinging to our ignorant myths.