Author Topic: Women's Issues  (Read 392116 times)

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1920 on: August 06, 2015, 08:28:03 AM »
With the deep pervasive hubris built into our species, a certain portion of us, finding the sense of a total lack of personal control over this universe our consciousness erupts into, can only conduct their lives with a magical show of drawing and coloring in the world as THEY would have it be.  One that makes sense to their stunted perceptions, once they have completely invented it, and that they can cling to with every stubborn certainty they can muster.  The mythology they are taught becomes a lifelong comfort and consolation to them.  Any attempt to shift their beliefs into eye opening FACTS about who we are, the size of our universe, and our probable demise and defeat as a species throws them into a complete, mud-slinging panic that rules out any sliver of thoughtful logic.  The very word Science becomes the name implied to all that is evil and attempting to destroy their dreams of a perfectly functioning Paradise in which they, if they follow THEIR OWN INVENTED RULES, will enjoy well deserved Bliss for an endless eternity.

Well, we are faced with the inevitability of forces that impede and interfere with our forward progress into, we hope, achieving enough wisdom and knowledge to save this planet for our descendants into the unseen future.  For every force, there is a counter force.  We know that.  My frustration runs high, but I can look back and state with certainty that I have tried mightily to LISTEN to the data gathered about our reality and the conclusions drawn by much more highly educated brains than my own, and I have tried to raise a family steeped in the desire to follow the facts.  In short, I have done my part on behalf of my fellow human beings, and the only regret I expect to have as I depart this world is that there is no book that can tell me the last chapter of our existence.  Bummer!

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1921 on: August 06, 2015, 09:08:34 AM »
Oh Barb, that is a horrid blog.. Ugh..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

maryz

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1922 on: August 07, 2015, 06:50:30 AM »
We didn't watch either of the debates last night, but we did watch Rachel Maddow.  This came on after the first one.  She made a point of remarking on the fact that the woman moderator referred to all of the candidates by their titles - "Gov. Perry", "Gov. Jindal", etc., and then called the only woman, "Carly".   Guess things haven't changed on Fox either.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1923 on: August 07, 2015, 08:49:31 AM »

I have noticed that many conservatives and tea party people call our President things like Barry, etc. Disrespectful at best... stupid for sure.. Honor the office no matter what.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1924 on: August 07, 2015, 09:00:45 AM »
I did watch the debates, and switched back and forth with MSNBC and Rachel Maddow occasionally.  I had not picked up on the title thing.

The horror for me was the very usual and, unfortunately, to be expected incomplete or obfuscated answers these politicians were spewing out in response to many, indeed most, of the questions directed at them.  I was appalled so many times with this that I rather wish now that I had thought to jot down my reaction each time, but I did not.  Particularly vivid to my mind is Scott Walker's answer that no, he is NOT in favor of allowing abortion to save a woman's life.  He goes on to aver how important he feels the life and rights of the unborn citizen of this country are, and just sort of slurs off the fate of the woman by saying that there are plenty of "other" remedies for her these days.  "OTHER THAN DEATH?",  I hurled at my TV!  What exactly are you TALKING about here?  Get down to the nitty gritty of what the crisis we are talking about here REALLY IS!  If a doctor came to you in the waiting room and told you that your wife or daughter was being poisoned by a sepsis that could only be stopped from pumping into her bloodstream and killing her, which was imminent, unless the pregnancy is terminated immediately, what would you ask him to do?  If there is, and this occurs more often than we as individuals know about in the medical world, NO OTHER CHOICE?  The thing that blows my mind is that if they say absolutely no abortion and the woman dies SO DOES THIS PRECIOUS UNBORN!  So the bottom line, it seems to me, is that they are saying the rule is that BOTH must die and that is that!  I just don't get it.  I don't!

And then this morning on Morning Joe Rick Santorum brought up and repeated and embellished that old fairytale about Planned Parenthood beginning as an organization to commit genocide on the negro race.  Again, I am not only horrified at the repetition of untrue hysteria, but beyond amazed that any person who wants to be taken seriously can sit there and repeat that garbage in front of television cameras and the world!  Talk about alternative history!  And the amazing thing is that this horrendous story has been completely debunked over and over and over again!  There must be something in the human being that much prefers to cling to the scary and colorful story, however false it is.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1925 on: August 07, 2015, 12:56:50 PM »
I just could not do it - having watched these debates that seem to be only an exercise in who flubs first and how often a candidate flubs I get inwardly shaken and then logic says this has nothing to do with being a president - I do not care how often folks try to convince me that your ability to split second handle something is similar to handling an emergency as president - bull - nothing the president says or does is ever split second reaction - he has a corp of folks surrounding his every move to help him stay on the track decided upon in meeting after meeting.

I am ready to see them reinstate the back room politics that gave us a candidate or two - I am so tired of this circus spectacle that has become entertainment on national TV side by side with the football games, wrestling, Saturday Night live and the sitcoms.

As to remarks about women it is all manufactured to get some base unthinking reaction stirred among those who vote what their pastor tells them to vote and so many fall into that trap - they do not have to think or learn or understand more than how to maintain their day to day life so that they put all their emotions and trust into a pastor who can up their dopamine level to a feel good state and any candidate who can tap into activating a dopamine hit gets a vote.

It appears the current area of choice that activates the feel good dopamine is rage, anger, women in control of their bodies, in fact women in control period, immigrants, and the rattling the sabers. All of it is a 21st century form of coercion by affecting the brain reward centers of our brain that a candidate can follow up with mere photos since pictures can do the same job as an experience. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1926 on: August 07, 2015, 02:07:02 PM »
I read the article - carefully  - that you referred to regarding Savita Halappanavar.  That was indeed a terrible tragedy.  But I know you all are women who value facts, and so much more was wrong with this case than an untimely abortion (which was legal in her case and sanctioned by the Catholic Church).  Ms. Halappanavar sought medical treatment late - the staff misdiagnosed her case - she was not properly monitored so that staff did not realize how quickly the infection was spreading and - yes - she needed to have the abortion before her membranes broke.  So much went wrong here.  She developed an infection (apparently a drug-resistant strain of bacteria) and , since the blood supply of a pregnant woman heavily favors the growing baby, the baby was killed by the infection.  She did receive antibiotics orally and intravenously - but too late.  Had they begun treatment on the first day, she probably would have survived, though the baby would need to be aborted at any rate.

The videos (have you seen them?) that have prompted the debate about Planned Parenthood are, as Hillary Clinton stated, truly disturbing.  Selling the unborn child's organs is barbaric.  But so is abortion - the most violent and barbaric procedure we allow in our society - which some people even promote.  This last video discussing how to dilate the woman over a two week period in order to get the most intact organs is truly difficult to watch.  At what cost to the baby?  At what cost to the unfortunate woman? (does she even know she is being put through this painful process for the harvesting of her unborn child?)

 If you have not seen for yourself how this 'medical procedure' is done you all might avail yourself of the opportunity to watch one: youtube carries a video, 'The Silent Scream', which covers this well.

Planned Parenthood is not sacrosanct, is it?  It is an agency - receiving public funds.  Surely it is not above receiving oversight, is it?  Community Health Centers cover much of the same activity - and funds were only going to be diverted to those already operating, so no funding toward women's health would have been taken away.  And though the statistic is frequently given that only 3% of the services of Planned Parenthood involve abortion, their site claims that 1 in 4 women 14 - 44 will receive an abortion in their lifetime; that's a pretty hefty number. 'The life of the mother' accounts for less than 1% of abortion cases, about 1% involves 'rape'; the most common reason given is that the pregnancy occurs at a time the woman feels unable (conditions relating to poverty) or unwilling (she is engaged in life experiences she is unwilling to interrupt) to care for a child.

As far as accusations about genocide: before President Obama's re-election an audio tape surfaced shown to be from Planned Parenthood where the woman from the agency was accepting a donation from a man who was giving it 'on the condition' that it be used for aborting 'black' babies, which she happily accepted.  Also, 2/3 of Planned Parenthood centers are located in minority - predominately  African American - neighborhoods.  Also, abortions are performed on black women disproportionately to their numbers in society at large.  These are shown from their own statistics.

Whatever your stance on abortion, the practice requires oversight - as all medical practices do - and must stay within legal - and medical - limits, for the sake of both the child and the mother.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1927 on: August 08, 2015, 08:44:01 AM »
No more.. There are also Planned Parenthood around large universities,, Many many women got their first birth control from them.. I know in my dorm, there was a number in the office and it was definitely not abortion since I am old enough that that was illegal and the girls themselves had a number for a doctor who was helping them.. But Planned Parenthood.. the good guy,, I do so wish, that this stupid young man who is manipulating the videos would stop. Please please, be for or against abortion .. but don't tell me what to do.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1928 on: August 08, 2015, 10:03:47 AM »
History:
In the Bible, a trial by ordeal is prescribed for a Sotah (a wife whose husband suspects that she was unfaithful to him) in which she drinks "water of bitterness," which can be interpreted to result, if she is guilty, in the abortion or miscarriage of a pregnancy she may be carrying.
Ancient silver coins from Cyrene depict a stalk of Silphium.  The ancient Greek colony of Cyrene at one time had an economy based almost entirely on the production and export of the plant silphium, a powerful abortifacient. Silphium figured so prominently in the wealth of Cyrene that the plant appeared on coins minted there. Silphium, which was native only to that part of Libya, was overharvested by the Greeks and was effectively driven to extinction. The standard theory, however, has been challenged by a whole spectrum of alternatives (from an extinction due to climate factors, to the so-coveted product being in fact a recipe made of a composite of herbs, attribution to a single species meant perhaps as a disinformation attempt).
In aboriginal Australia, plants such as cymbidium madidum, petalostigma pubescens, Eucalyptus gamophylla were ingested or the body/vagina was smoked with Erythropleum chlorostachyum.
As Christianity and in particular the institution of the Catholic Church increasingly influenced European society, those who dispensed abortifacient herbs found themselves classified as witches and were often persecuted in witch-hunts.
Medieval Muslim physicians documented detailed and extensive lists of birth control practices, including the use of abortifacients, commenting on their effectiveness and prevalence. The use of abortifacients was acceptable to Islamic jurists provided that the abortion occurs within 120 days, the point when the fetus is considered to become fully human and receive its soul.
In English law, abortion did not become illegal until 1803. English folk practice before and after that time held that fetal life was not present until quickening. Women who took drugs before that time would describe their actions as 'restoring the menses' or 'bringing on a period'." Abortifacients used by women in England in the 19th century (not necessarily safe or effective) included diachylon, savin, ergot of rye, pennyroyal, slippery elm, nutmeg, rue, squills, and hiera picra

kidsal

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1929 on: August 09, 2015, 06:38:35 AM »
There is so much discussion about abortion - a legal procedure as determined by the Supreme Court.   Not much discussion about the selling of fetal parts.  Senator Collins got it right -- should be a discussion on how fetal parts are obtained for research -- are they being sold by Planned Parenthood?   How is this regulated? 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1930 on: August 09, 2015, 07:25:35 AM »
this is the company my good friend arranged with before she died - she was 95 but the best thing she had to offer was her skin as when her husband died his body also was donated -

Mostly young children and infant burn victims benefit since they cannot grow enough skin to reapply the many grafts needed from their own body so for the early grafts that will peel off the donated skin of those who see their bodies as more valuable to others and who have donated their bodies will provide that necessary skin.

Here is their web site
http://www.lifelegacy.org/?gclid=Cj0KEQjw9JuuBRC2xPG59dbzkpIBEiQAzv4-G75fd4EY1kgLNZAQmBAdK7DJWb_g9hQugxuGgEhlpcAaAjP48P8HAQ

the thing is you have to make arrangements beforehand with a small private funeral home because the large national funeral homes will not do it or if they will they charge almost as much as doing a funeral - the small funeral home only charges a nominal very nominal fee - the body within 2 hours is packed in ice and shipped off - in about 6 to 8 weeks after the body has been harvested for what is valuable the remains are cremated and sent back to the family. There is no charge for the family - My friend's husband was an officer in the Navy during WWII and so his cremated remains after his body was harvested for what was valuable was then buried in the wall at Arlington.

There are several companies that will take bodies to be used in research - I think MaryPage has said she is set for her body to be donated for science -

The concept of using bodies for more than burial or cremation is a very old practice and laws have protected the industry for a long time - there is some hysteria now being pumped up as if an aborted fetus is a full grown baby with our desire to cradle the child in our arms - which at 4 months we know that is not so and the remains must be disposed of - I had 3 mis-carriages, one when I was 3 and a half months along - at the time no one even asked me but the hospital took care of it - another one while I was at home, about 2 months along while I was on the potty - certainly as painful a loss the idea of these remains doing good would have been a comfort and since there is not enough to bury, the solution is cremation or more comforting, allowing the remains to be useful no different than if you were 4 years old or 40 years old or 84 years old.

This is the link to the US Health and Human Resource site that lists the body donor parts that can be donated.
http://www.organdonor.gov/about/donated.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1931 on: August 09, 2015, 09:16:33 AM »
Years ago, a very dear friend had her body to be donated to a medical school.. She wanted it to be useful to others.. Not sure I could, but Anne loved the idea..and when she died of a sudden heart attack, her husband did just what she wanted.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1932 on: August 09, 2015, 11:35:27 AM »
I signed up with the Georgetown University School of Medicine clear back in 1983.  When I die, the daughter who lives nearby will call their phone number on a card I carry (I had it laminated), and they will come to fetch my body and take it away at no cost to my family.  It makes me feel good to know that I can be of some use to medical science.  When this Catholic school is finished with my remains, they will be cremated and returned to my family for disposal as I have stipulated.  I cannot stress strongly enough how this makes me feel I have made the very last possible effort to assist mankind that I can make.
There are very few graveyards or burial places still in place after hundreds of years, let alone thousands.  The very famous remain in place longer than the unimportant to history, but even those tend to be ploughed under for development eventually.  Remember, just a year or so back they discovered the bones of a one time King of England under a paved over parking lot!  So, while it makes people FEEL better, and I am all for comforting the grieving, as goodness knows I have said goodbye to every single member of my family older than I and too many younger, I do think burial a waste of money and, in the long run, effort.  I am making an attempt to explain myself here, and my feelings and reasoning, but I am not in any way attempting to sell you my approach to this delicate matter, so please, please do not take offense.
I do not quite understand about companies that do this.  That is something I am totally unfamiliar with.  I do know that the National Institutes of Health uses stem cells from many sources, including aborted fetuses, for ever so important cures.  They have been used for vaccines that have saved multimillions of living children.  I have three, THREE, dear members of my family suffering the ravages of Parkinson's, and we are all much encouraged and hopeful hearing that NIH is actually in the last stages of finding a cure for that from these stem cells.  I do have a close relationship to Planned Parenthood, and I know that they absolutely do not "sell" any materials from fetuses.  Only the expenses involved in transportation to the labs working with these cells is reimbursed.

maryz

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1933 on: August 09, 2015, 12:03:22 PM »
My advance directive is that any and all body parts that can be used (skin, ligaments, bone, veins, whatever) should be harvested, and then the rest cremated.  Recycle, reuse!
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1934 on: August 10, 2015, 09:07:33 AM »
I have cremation for it all and then my sons can decide what to do with the ashes. I do so dislike funerals with the body present.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1935 on: August 10, 2015, 03:08:59 PM »
Some thoughts:

this stupid young man who is manipulating the videos would stop.:   Steph, this is not a 'stupid young man' (it's investigative reporting) - and what ANY agency/group is doing 'when no one is looking' is important to KNOW!!  He is NOT telling you what to do - just what they are doing!  And, of course there are other Planned Parenthood centers, especially in University towns. 


The concept of using bodies for more than burial or cremation is a very old practice
:  that's true - but it is 'apples to oranges' here.  The last video showed a discussion about second trimester babies (the older the better since the organs are better developed) and how to change the procedure for extracting them so that organs are not damaged.  This means a series of dilations to extract the baby 'whole' and then dismember her/him.  This is illegal because, generally, babies must be killed before extraction to prevent the possibility of a live birth.  This is known as feticide and requires that the baby be injected - usually with potassium chloride, or something similar - and then dismembered and suctioned out of the uterus into a bag and disposed of in  Bio-Waste containers.  But, no chemical can be used in the case of getting organs useful for research; that means delivering the baby at four - six months when there is a very real chance of a live birth.

Scientists hypothesize that fetal stem cells are the answer to repairing/replacing a myriad of damaged body parts.  And, in theory, since they are 'pristeen' and 'undifferentiated', that would seem likely.  But that is just not so.  Adult stem cells have proven to be effective in so many conditions; and there is no problem with rejection since the cells are normal to the patient.  And they are very very abundant in every human body!  There simply is no need to cannibalize fetal remains.  And - again - we are talking about babies that can - and have - lived outside the mother's body.

" The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends feticide be performed "before medical abortion after 21 weeks and 6 days of gestation to ensure that there is no risk of a live birth".[12] In abortions after 20 weeks, an injection of digoxin or potassium chloride to stop the fetal heart can be used to achieve feticide.[13][14] In the United States, the Supreme Court has ruled that a legal ban on intact dilation and extraction procedures does not apply if feticide is completed before surgery starts.[14] The possibility of unsuccessful feticide—resulting in birth of a live infant—is a malpractice concern.[15]"

What about it being a moral concern?

The world was enraged at a dentist killing Cecil the lion, as they should be - it was horrendous!  And years ago people became upset over the fact that lobsters are boiled alive - and make a shriek; until scientists assured us that they could feel no pain.

But the fetus DOES experience pain and no one seems to care.  Is it any wonder that we see such callousness, such disregard for human life, all around us?  And how much of that responsibility falls on us as women?  Surely that is at least an issue worthy of self-reflection, self-examination?

Let us not make Simon and Garfunkle prophets in The Fighter when they sang: 

                 "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1936 on: August 11, 2015, 07:49:02 AM »
I have read quite a bit about the stupid young man and saw how he manipulates his film and lies to the people being interviewed, so I have not changed my opinion a bit on him. You and I just look at things quite differently and always will. Not a big deal.. What I regard as totally unacceptable you don't and vice versa. To me the biggest sin is our penchant for interfering in other peoples ward.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1937 on: August 11, 2015, 08:25:07 AM »
I agree with you, Steph.  The organization that sent people full of hatred for all the great good that Planned Parenthood does for the health and welfare of any woman who comes to their door seeking help and advice owns every attribute and skill of a network of spies infiltrating an enemy territory for the purpose of sabotage.  It has been proved that the tapes are heavily edited in order to present the Big Lie about Planned Parenthood.  I am not skilled in this, but I am told that it is extremely easy to accomplish this these days.  People who will encourage their followers to check their websites for the names & addresses of doctors who perform abortions and go out and murder them in cold blood in their homes and churches are fanatic beyond redemption.  Pro LIFE?  I don't think so.  I respect anyones deeply held angst regarding abortion, but cannot condone these outrageous and unwarranted attacks on the integrity of Planned Parenthood.  Nor am I able to understand the recognition of any authority other than my very own:  me, mine, myself, as to the health of my body and the functioning of my reproductive parts.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1938 on: August 11, 2015, 12:53:37 PM »
Telling others what to do and what is wrong when they have never had even a miscarriage nor where in the position to have to struggle with an abortion is like telling an astronaut how to live if they became detached from their space vehicle -

Once anyone can imagine themselves floating in space, alone, with no hope, then talk about what a woman should or not do about her body -

Problem is since they have never had as much as a miscarriage they have this huge fantastical imagination as to what is happening and based on this imagination they simplify the choice so they can judge just as those in the Bible who are asked who is free from sin in order to continue to stone the one they have determined is worthy of being stoned.

The bible is an interesting book - you can find phrases to justify anything and ignore the phrases that talk about judging another or what is said in the Bible about abortions - I wonder what ever happened to their Christian love when they are so busy condemning another based on their idea of how others 'should' live a life they are not willing to live. These are the very folks who cut food stamps, cut Head Start, want to cut 'Obamacare', want war with Iran rather than support the treaty, disrespect the sacrifice of a servicemen in either life or in death, and yet, they want others to take them seriously when they talk about pulling the rug out from under women who need the kind of health care that they will never have to experience themselves.

That is still a bitter pill for me - I was a young mom with two babies - my youngest a year old and the oldest 2 years old when I had my first miscarriage - I was 3 and 1/2 months along and it was no picnic - I was alone as my husband was driving the babies 90 miles away to be taken care of by my mother - after the worst of it, late at night a priest came to visit - all I wanted was for him to baptize this I assumed formation of a child - and he told me he couldn't that at this point there was nothing there to baptize - I was incredulous - was traumatized - I could not understand - and he tried to explain there was just a lump of tissue and a huge clots - that there was nothing he could baptize -

I went inward and was devastated - that was the only thing that was going to bring me comfort and it was denied because there was nothing there - all these photos we have been seeing for the last 50 years are nothing but propaganda - I have yet to hear of one priest who has EVER baptized a fetus - if they were so concerned then they would be having a Chaplin on hand to baptize all these so called babies that are aborted, especially those lat term abortions taking place because of the potential danger to the mother who wants the child and yet, no Baptism is performed - and so all this is - is a witch hunt to control women when they are at their most vulnerable - and that is the shame of it - when a women is at her most vulnerable they spill their viper poison at her as if she was in insect, with about the same respect for her life as if a women is a fly, mosquito or roach - they cause all this angst and act so un-Christian  over something they have never experienced themselves.     
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1939 on: August 11, 2015, 01:58:11 PM »
I am not Catholic, so I don't understand the baptism issue.  But I am terribly sorry for your loss, BarbStAubrey.  What a horribly difficult and sad event.  I had a similar experience (though not with the added horror of facing it alone!) but a gynecologist later was convinced - by reviewing the data - that I hadn't been pregnant at all but that, in my case, it was a large fibroid tumor.  But I can still remember acutely the horrible loss.


Still...the law is written this way because doctors know second term babies can - and frequently do - survive outside the mother's body. At any rate, I think we can all agree that just because something is legal doesn't make it moral.  So the struggle goes on......


MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1940 on: August 11, 2015, 05:12:31 PM »
Back in the dark ages before I had children, I had a fetus die inside me.  I was seven months along.  This was 1949, and they wanted me to go into labor.  I went home and died a million deaths before labor began two weeks later.  In what seemed all respects, I had the usual routine of rush to hospital and prepping and delivery, only with no pain relief "just in case."  Right up to the end it seemed we were all hoping that just because I was feeling no baby move any more and the doctors got no heartbeat, something might turn out differently.  Well, it didn't.  The baby had the cord wrapped around its neck several times.  It had been extremely active.  It was a boy.
My mother in law immediately called her priest to see about having it baptized and buried.  He refused.  I understand the church has changed their position on this now, but back then they would not do it.  She begged and pleaded.  She even tried other priests.  No go.  She was devastated.  I didn't really care about those details;  I wanted my baby, and was inconsolable.  My grandmother told me the Blessed Mother has a special dormitory for such infants, and they are protected under her blue cloak.  The church told me they stay in Limbo for all eternity.  This was followed by three miscarriages, and then they found I had low thyroid and I started having real live babies that filled me with such delight and awe that I simply could not believe they were MINE.  To KEEP!  But for three long years I sobbed upon waking in the mornings and upon going to sleep at night.
Now I am a very old woman, and expecting that bus at any moment that will swing in and whisk me off to where my beloved family have all gone previously, leaving me behind.  I leave a will that leaves everything I have to my EIGHT children.  I also leave THIRTEEN granddaughters and TWENTY-FIVE great grandchildren. 
But I am fierce about the fact that my body belongs to me, not the state.  Not the church, not my community.  I was born a prisoner in this box of flesh.  I cannot get out of it until that bus finally shows up.  But no one, NO ONE, has the right to sentence me to carry and give birth to an unwanted pregnancy.  Or any other woman of my species to do so.  The God of my understanding does not demand this, either.  As a matter of fact, the God I am acquainted with laments the fact that the beings of my species are constantly killing their own kind, including those same beings insisting the women whose pregnancies are killing them without the intervention of an abortion should go ahead and die rather than being saved with the assistance of medical science.
I have never had an abortion.  Every woman hopes she will never have to have one.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1941 on: August 11, 2015, 05:39:32 PM »
Yea Limbo - wasn't that a comfort...god...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1942 on: August 12, 2015, 08:58:21 AM »
yes, I sincerely believe that the great majority don't want an abortion, but sometimes life gets beyond complicated.. and in the case of incest or rape,,, the horror or continuing grief is beyond awful.
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MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1943 on: August 12, 2015, 09:41:23 AM »
Both incest and rape are committed by monstrous evil urges and instincts.  Why anyone in their right minds truly believes their version of god WANTS these instincts to proliferate through the seed left to grow within the bodies of female victims of these wicked incursions, I simply cannot fathom.  Furthermore, the thought that MY precious body, the only one I have or ever will have, which the dear nuns and others taught me as a mere girl is a holy temple which must be kept pure, is to be demanded by this god for nine months of gestation of the progeny of my unwanted attacker is an unspeakable indictment of that precious god.  Oh no, My Dears, those notions were entirely invented by the very cunning minds of ancient human thugs who won control over the larger number of females of their tribe by all of the ritual battles we see in National Geographic films exposing the mating habits of other mammals.  Aggression and violence win the field and the females, every time.  Little girls are carefully taught that Might does not make Right, and are then suddenly subjected to a world in which Might controls the very functions of their bodies and rules that they must carry and give birth to the monster's progeny.  I don't find ANYthing about this process that is desired by a loving God.  The God of MY understanding does not embrace the unspeakable torment and then sentence the broken victim to the punishment of nine months of continuous further torment followed by a lifetime of grief.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1944 on: August 13, 2015, 08:11:30 AM »
oh so very well said..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1945 on: August 14, 2015, 10:09:57 AM »
I see in my morning newspaper that an ELEVEN (11) year old girl in Paraquay has been delivered of a baby girl (the mother being but a baby herself) by c-section there.  The GOVERNMENT refused to allow her to have an abortion.  She was raped by her stepfather, who is apparently in jail awaiting trial, if there ever is one.  Women of this planet should weep and feel drenched with frustration.  Why it is that men make the rules regarding matters they never have, never do, and never will experience for themselves?  Who gave committees of men the right to dominion over MY body?  Apparently this was my birthright:  that men own the reproductive functions of my body.  Freedom is imaginary.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1946 on: August 15, 2015, 08:55:30 AM »
Part of our problems are the many many passive women who permit males to decide their lives.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1947 on: August 15, 2015, 11:23:56 AM »
Thousands of years of having submission forced into the female of the homo sapiens species and the beaten down herd mentality of the females of the species homo has descended from has put genes that carry down even to a huge number of women of today, who, due both to these genes and to cultural mores taken for granted in the communities they are born into, actually take hope and pleasure from abusive treatment from males, feeling at least they are being singled out for attention and therefore must be admired and found attractive.  One huge wave is in the making culture-wise, and it is in the making in Africa, where ever so slowly but SURELY the old hobbling of women for their entire lifetimes via genital mutilation is FINALLY becoming realized for what a disaster it has been and condemnation of it is taking hold and making good strides.  It will take at least another generation or two to wipe it out, but those women who have raised their daughters without this ghastly physical handicap are exulting in their newly found freedom and abilities.  With an entire continent finally freeing over half of their entire populations by stamping out this horrible custom, Africa will become a vibrant continent and contribute much to the human condition.  Here are some books on the subject, and there are many, many more:

https://www.google.com/#q=book+about+female+genital+mutilation&tbm=shop

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1948 on: August 15, 2015, 11:59:02 AM »
This was my very favorite book on this subject, and also one of my favorite books EVER!  I strongly recommend every woman read it, if she hasn't done so already.  Together, we can change the world!

A book written by acclaimed writer and journalist Aimee Molloy about Molly Melching’s work, However Long the Night: Molly Melching’s Journey to Help Millions of African Women and Girls Triumph, was published on April 30, 2013. The book shares Molly’s personal experiences that brought her to Africa nearly 40 years ago, the inspiring people she has met along the way, and why she decided to stay. It brings to life the story of Tostan’s founding and the incredible community-led movement for transformative social change being seen in Africa.

BarbStAubrey

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mabel1015j

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1950 on: August 16, 2015, 10:10:19 AM »
That's an interesting site Barbara. I'll have to spend some time there.

Jean

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1951 on: August 16, 2015, 01:27:12 PM »
that is my sister Kate -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1952 on: August 16, 2015, 01:40:04 PM »
Wow, Barb!  I AM impressed.  You must receive much Joy from her.

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1953 on: August 16, 2015, 03:57:05 PM »
We try and now with the internet we have re-established a relationship - we led very different lives.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1954 on: August 17, 2015, 08:49:54 AM »
mark
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1955 on: August 21, 2015, 09:16:09 AM »
Women are making a huge difference in this world.  Hurrah for those two who just completed the Ranger Course at Fort Benning.  In the latest The New Yorker a splendid article about Christiana Figueres and Global Warming conferences.  Another amazing woman to add to the list!  This one has one blue eye and one brown.  I've never seen that in real life, although I have previously read about it.  So I Google Imaged her and found some great pictures.

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1956 on: August 21, 2015, 01:32:16 PM »
MaryPage we may want to be careful here - bunch of guys that were and one that is a ranger explained that the program was altered because General wanted to have the acclaim of women rangers - there were about 10 different changes noted including the weight of a backpack and the privacy shelters built over trenches - I do not remember all the changes but it is evidently the talk among rangers who are dissing civilians for their naiveté - at first when I started to read these messages I thought it was male ego and sour grapes till there among those posting a couple of guys I knew who were not prone to have any issues with women.

Sounds too much like quietly gearing us up for getting women to see personal advancement so that the next call to arms will have smart women joining and it also suggests that the powers that be are slowly gearing up.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1957 on: August 22, 2015, 08:57:20 AM »
I think that the women will be able to prove that they are useful in the rangers. Pure strength is not the deciding factor for winning the new type of warfare. Only drawback is the ever present threat of rape in warfare.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1958 on: August 22, 2015, 02:52:14 PM »
According to this group of men who were and one is currently a ranger that were talking to each other and a couple of civilians that they knew the job requires so much energy and sleep deprivation that to take the time and energy to help with creating privacy for the women meant the teams energy was diverted and in order to meet standards the entire graduating team's operated with lower standards and that is why the news clips of the group show such somber faces because they know and feel politics trumped over pride in standards.

It is difficult to decide what is the best approach - and yes, for women to be more useful because of this training is a boost to the armed services and one class having lowered standards with men using up their little sleep recovery time to help build shelters is not overall a problem when there are graduating classes after graduating classes of active rangers who had graduated with the more intensive training - At first reading their conversation I thought it could be male ego bruising but I soon realized their anger is toward the gullibility of the public that they call citizens to what they feel was the dumbing down of something they took great pride in the standards that were set to be a ranger.

My friend who died this Spring, her niece who recently moved back into the area - she is Col. Jeannie Flynn Leavitt, a decorated fighter pilot and the Air Force's first female wing commander. That job although grueling as any warrior's job is not requiring the physical intensity of a ranger and so I can see women promoted to senior positions but I wonder now after reading their concerns if this was the best approach to include woman among the men in this specialty forces. I can also see how just by the effort required by the other men to make it possible to include women that it may be a way to teach respect for a women's sexuality since we know during any intense physical activity men automatically are aroused and this has been a basis that is the excuse used for the rape of so many women in the service.

We shall see what we shall see as the saying goes but this was a bit that the news does not share which makes us realize how gullible we are which now I cannot help but wonder how many times are we not getting the whole story on many issues.

Where it is with a sense of justification that women can do things that were not open to them because of their gender I can see the lowering of standards in order to make special accommodations takes something away from those who took pride in achieving excellence even if Billy Jean proved women can be winners among men in physical achievements - if the intensity of endurance is compromised then that leaves guys attempting to feel pride in a dumbed down program who are also a lessor prepared group.

My hope is that the full explanation for why has not been made clear to those who were talking and a general has something up his sleeve more than the desire to make a name for himself - and yes, these two women will be far more valuable to whatever their job than if they had not experienced the intensity of the program. I think that was what was being said as double talk by the defense secretary when he let it be known that he will decide if they will serve in the elite ranger corp.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #1959 on: August 22, 2015, 08:47:55 PM »
I think this is a good teaching moment to talk about "is it lowering standards or is just doing it differently?" It's possible that some women can not carry as much weight as some men, but how often is it necessary to carry that weight? Can it be handled in a different way? They are problem solvers after all, solve the problem. Must they build women's quarters? How often are they in an area long enough to have to build quarters - it seems to me that a different bush to go behind can be "quarters." Etc etc. I know any women who are going to try to go through Ranger or Seal training are not going to be prissy about their environment or expect any leniency from the guys. the same arguments have been thrown up when Harry Truman said integrate the troops and the answer was "white soldiers will not take orders from 'Negro' soldiers." Well, look how that turned out. Then it was men will not take orders from women officers, well, that seems to not be a problem, she is not a woman, she is whatever insignia is on her uniform. Then is was "we can't have gays in the units, it will create all kinds of disruption!" Except that Denmark had been integrated gays into their units for 20 yrs and did not have a problem. Neither have we, except from the haters that create the disruptions, not the Blacks, or the women, or the gays!

I recall when working for the Dept of Army in the 80s there was a typical comment made by a Congressman that he was concerned if women were in combat, or were fighter pilots, etc - as tho women had never been in combat - that men would put themselves in danger to assist a woman. A woman who was a helicopter pilot in Nicaragua - remember our "fight" with N during the Reagan years that turned out to be Oliver North's war of trading munitions/cash for hostages? - anyway, she trained other pilots, but was not supposed to be "in combat." She responded to a reporter's relaying the Congressman's comment, "I've found that if my copter went down, the guys would be crawling over me to get out of it, not helping me out." When I talked to the enlisted soldiers that I worked with about it their comment was that "everyone becomes a part of the team and is not thought of as men and women."

I have been astonished at how backward present day military behaviors seem to be when thinking of the progress I thought was being made in the 80s and 90s. One of my first tasks was to train everybody at Ft Dix, civilian and military in Prevention of Sexual Harassment. Now, there were some hard heads who argued in classes that they were being picked on, and they were just teasing, etc. etc. but the Command was solidly behind gender equality and punishing sexual harassment and everybody knew it. Since that was 20 and 30 years ago, the new officer corps would all be trained in those behaviors and should have enough experience with women in the corps that they should have acclimated to the environment and behaving themselves.

Of course, the most horrendous of the sexual harassment cases in the last 15 yrs seem to have come out of the Navy and Air Force and I'm not sure they were as diligent in their training as the Army was, and they may have given it up altogether in the 21st century.
I have a feeling Barb, that there is a little bit of obfuscation on both sides of the reports we have heard about these two women and the men they trained with. We really do need to read/hear many different viewpoints and come to our own conclusions about what is "truth", as I always advised my students about the world of the press and especially when we are hearing about anything that is politic.

Jean