Women's Issues

[Steph]

Jean,I am glad that you could chime in with facts. I have been disturbed with some of the reactions. The women who want to be rangers or seals are not asking for leniency as far as I have heard.. We have certain types who can always act as if they are  being helpful, but in reality are knocking down women or gays.. Make an even battlefield.. Certain tasks you must be able to do.. The carrying of packs is one of those yeah but situuations.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I too wish however, my concern is having prepared troops and if this is true what I see is we do not usually handle for instance, 60 pound packs - but what I understand is to be strong enough that in the heat of battle you can take care of yourself fighting the enemy while carrying another wounded soldier on your back - the adrenalin to do that is fine but as I understood the program it was to be like exercising in the morning - we do not run during the day for any thing unless in a big city where you run to catch public transportation and yet, many run every morning for strength building and that is what I thought the carrying of 60 pound packs was about - building strength so that those times when you need to do the extra ordinary it is not adrenalin you are depending upon.

And yes, I remember all the times that including women was thought to be the end of the world - and I am sure there is some of that going on now - but then I also have seen the dumbing down of our students when they decided what they should learn rather than follow the classic curriculum and I am seeing the increasing loss of pride - to cater to that pride by putting women down is not the answer and is the humiliation we are all reacting to because it appears to be 'the' tool we are rightfully wanting changed - What I am concerned about is that to lesson preparations that have pushed men to the limit is not the answer either.

If both sexes could handle the extreme equally I think we would see women playing in national football with the men and we would not have separate events for men and women in order to win an Olympic Medal. The point of this program I was under the impression was equivalent if not more than being an ever ready Olympiad - yes, there are many many jobs in the service that are not dependent upon physical brawn that could be given an elite status with elite preparedness that yes, smacks of separate but equal - but the Olympics has many events that are separate but equal and winning a medal in women's events is no less valued.

As to building the shelter as I understood it they are at the end of their tether and will not be allowed enough sleep to fully recover - every speck of energy is involved in maintaining their ability to function so that an extra nightly duty required by a team that takes away from their one focus and inadequate body repair time in order to use all their energy to preform the mission, needs to be addressed.

As I understand it the Rangers are not needed as an everyday tactical fighting group during war but they are needed for special events during war so they must be ever ready - a tech army may be efficient however, we are not fighting armies with technology - we did not 'win' the latest wars with all of our technology nor did we overwhelm the enemy with a physical might and so I just think it is not prudent to lesson the demands of physical preparation -

If women can do this job as it was designed than by all means but to bring added duties to a team and to be less practiced in carrying weight seems like a loss of readiness. Girls can play tag football and even play with early football teams but once the guys are older teens into young manhood girls cannot keep up the physical side of the game - they are great tacticians and that is what I see in the rangers, they are not meant to be a tactical superior group - they are as physically ready or more, with no season off time as enjoyed by any professional football player.   

I just do not see this one as a typical argument of what girls can do - there are some very strong determined girls that should have their opportunity but I think this one needs more thought because lessoning the demands is not going to build pride. I understand the Navy Seals have successfully integrated women in that program - what are the differences in expectations between the programs - there has not been any chatter that the SEAL program was changed to accommodate women.   

[mabel1015j]

I agree with much that you say Barbara. However, to your comment "If both sexes could handle the extreme equally I think we would see women playing in national football with the men and we would not have separate events for men and women in order to win an Olympic Medal." I can't imagine even if we had a team of "Amazon" women that they guys would ever "allow" them to play professional football! Or compete with men in what they consider the "male" sports. We are just getting our first "male sports" officials and coaches for goodness sakes!  That would be too degrading to some of them because it's still too often assumed that being anything like a woman is demeaning to men. Being beaten in anything by a woman is considered by many men to be demeaning. Marriages where wives make more money then husbands is considered demeaning to the husband by many. Taking care of children, cleaning the house, doing the dishes, changing diapers - still men who do that get teased by some others who think that is too womanish, OR HEAVEN FOR BID, they are a doormat for the wife. (that was the nicest phrase I could think to use in the context  )  And it is obvious that many men think is perfectly o.k. to slap, hit, beat a woman if she is not "behaving properly" to him.

Boys still get called "sissies", sometimes by their fathers!!! These days some may say they are accusing them of being gay, as though that is not just as wrong as the old indication that the boy was acting like a GIRL. We've just seen the commercial "like a girl" trying to defeat that attitude, but I think it's a looooonnngg way off when many men will not think that being compared to a girl is insulting. The most depressing thing for me, as I have probably said on here before, is that in the 1970s I thought all those attitudes would have dissipated by 2015!!!! We took a huge step backwards in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. I am very discouraged even though I acknowledge that there have been many individual steps of progress.

It just exasperates me that we can't look at each human being as an individual and decide what they can have the opportunity to try by what abilities they have, not by who they are.

Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch - that may be true for some guys but not what I see - but then most young men I see in high school get the sit down about treating women with respect and how they develop differently - but then is this really about the guys who do not want their 'manhood' threatened versus the many who want the best for both women and men - there is a loud minority who champion their view of football and even among the player there are those who do not respect women but that kind of bullying is a different agenda than women having access to all they can be.

We can either go after the bullies or we can push to have women included inside what was closed doors - however, some of those doors are closed because of the difference in physical needs and abilities. I think we need to choose what is a closed door because of tradition and not because we want to take on the bullies.

[mabel1015j]

I believe it is a systematic problem - remember the slogan "the personal is political." I do see many young men, including my son who is a high school football coach and for two years had a young woman on his team, who have respect for women and believe in equality. I do not think they are close to being a majority. I also think there are a lot of men who think they have respect for women, but participate in watercooler jokes about women, or would highly upset if they thought they had been bested, or demeaned by a woman's behavior in a way that if it was one of "their boys" would not upset them as highly. The popular use of the b.... word - which I find highly offensive and believe we need to campaign to remove it from public conversation in the same way we have done with the n..... word - is symbolic of what I am voicing.

Women are still highly regarded as sex objects rather than human beings (check out some popular music lyrics, or see most of the new tv programs - including the beloved Scandal! Does she have to have sex with the president anywhere and everywhere? Was that a necessary storyline? And yes, that was written and produced by a woman - we are not immune to the systemic sexism and women-demeaning statements that we hear all around us.) How about that 72 cents we make for every dollar the comparable male makes? That's clearly saying "you are not as valuable as he is." Think of all the voices you hear about "actual rape", men saying they have the right to control women's bodies, and oh, I could go on and on.

You say that determining women's opportunities and capabilities is a different issue than men being threatened by women, I just see them as two spots on a spectrum of behavior and attitude about women - at the moment. I was hoping in the 70s that we would come to the point where women could objectively be assessed by their capabilities, I don't see that happening for a long, long time and in the meantime I think it is difficult to judge whether these are objective statements that are being made about ability.
end of rant! 
Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

Haha - OK I hear you - for me I like to separate because I do see more guys like your son and I put in another category those who must bully anyone they see as weaker not just physically but socially and of course they are the ones who continue their ancient fear that turns into a put down of woman -

Yes, there are men that do have both characteristics but then there are so many who are not bullies and still think women are less and who can be more easily changed with insight - more than education but the second part of education when you can ID and own what you learn - I like giving them the attention -

The others are dealing with issues that I am not confident is exclusively about women's place - I think it is only one of many issues that are part and parcel of most conservative followers who need to dominate using the traditional ways of getting more. Ancient parts of our brains still exist and there is a clear payoff to putting others down - the more you bully, the higher you’ll rise in social ranks, and the more offspring you’ll have. That is a much more difficult change to make but with large number of help from those men who get it we can have a changed society - already we are seeing some small grudgingly change among those who bully women in the national football league.

[MaryPage]

Did none of you catch the actual news conference on TV that a whole slew of the new ranger grads gave?  You appear not to have done.  The praise the men spoke about for the women in the program was wonderful to hear.  One spoke up and said that he was at the end of his rope on the last march, and he begged for a volunteer to take some of the weight he was carrying, or he wasn't going to make it.  The only one who volunteered was one of the women, and she carried his weight AND HERS for the rest of the march.  He and the other men praised the women to the skies.

[MaryPage]

As for our national game of football, I for one hope that women are too smart to even want to be players.  I am one who believes the "sport" is barbarian and warlike in its physical destruction of players, and that it degrades our American value system that we have mindless hordes of supposedly civilized people out there screaming to see these teams tackle one another and draw blood and break bones and cause permanent brain injuries.  We are identical to the crowds attending the Roman games where lions ate Christians alive and gladiators fought to the death.  Also the same blood lust brought crowds to public hangings, beheadings, and disembowelings.  Sickens my soul, it does!  We should stick to games where mayhem is not enticing and encouraging the blood lust present in the genes of the most depraved of our species.

[mabel1015j]

I agree. I would much prefer that my grandsons join the swim team, much healthier and they can do it for allof their lives! Altho i do appreciate the logistics of a good college football teams plays, both offense and defense. It's rather like a chess game.

No, i didn't see the news conference. But i'm not surprised at the comment.

BY THE WAY I like your webcam views of the harbor.

Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I saw the ranger who gave credit for the women and as I say the guys chatting were saying it was a show for the citizens - so I am not sure what to believe - but I did not pick up any malice or women bashing or even any sense of jealousy but a disgust with what they knew that they believe took down the program to accommodate a General wanting the kudos for graduating the first women.

We will probably never know - and as long as whatever happened keeps the army moral where it needs to be I am fine my big concern is that by making this kind of publicity is it part of a plan to entice more women into the service since the guys are weary and only those with no opportunities are joining. Where as if women see this as an opportunity to reach greater heights plus they are usually more educated and the army needs the build up they would be ideal candidates because those that have the money are eying war as soon as Obama leaves the stage.

If you notice the world wide economy is taking a hit and having a war has been the cure for the last couple of wars. I just do not see this as a disconnected happening - time will tell what happens.

Yep national televised football gets more mean every year - but the kids playing football in high school appear to be having a good time and they appear to be more about the game than the brutal hits. Probably because their young bodies could not take it but it does make for a fun Friday night especially in all these small towns where there is nothing else not even a movie theater and the whole town comes out for the game.

[Steph]

Thank heaven, but ever since I graduated from college, I have never seen another football game. Both of my sons were swimmers, weight lifters, sailers and track and field. All things you can do forever.. I dislike all football and note that there has recently been some articles on high school football players with too many concussions already. Sad.

[jane]

I love football, but think that the coaches and owners have let winning overrule common sense and health issues.  They're now finding that soccer has the same kinds of injuries with concussions and other injuries.

I think it's the "winning coach at any cost" mentality that has to change...whether it's about health of the athletes or their "academic" life...given the scandals at places like UNC Chapel Hill, etc.  When Univ. donors and admin have more say over the way teams are run than common sense and medical experts say, it's time for big changes all around.  The same is true at the pro level...owners here in place of donors...but sometimes I wonder if some of the big univ. donors aren't, in effect, "owners."  Bah Humbug!!

[MaryPage]

There are so many other games we can play, and, if you like that sort of thing (big crowds scare me witless) you can join the throngs that attend.  Soccer, baseball, cricket, basketball,  etc.  Yes, there ARE freaky mishaps in any of these, even in golf, for crying out loud, but there is no INTENTION to mayhem.  We can get killed any day of the week just wheeling our grocery cart out to our vehicle parked on a carefully marked lot.  Stuff happens.  It is the fact that football is BUILT for it, with anticipation filling the air that curdles my blood.

When Debi, daughter number 4, was just a Freshman in High School, back in the days when High School consisted of 4 years (I get really confused with all the variations in the systems my great grandchildren attend classes in THESE days!), she was in the Pom Pom Squad of cheerleaders.  She was so proud, and their first public appearance at a game took place on an October night at their "Homecoming" game between Herndon and Wakefield.  We did not live in Herndon, but it was our assigned school back in the day of such a smaller population.  This must have been around 1969.  We had almost the whole family there to see our Deb strut her stuff.  It was right near the end of the first quarter, and we saw one of those sudden humongous senseless pileups down on the green, green spotlight lit field below.  As one by one bodies peeled off from it, one green & white clad boy lay still on the turf.  Adults rushed towards him.  An ambulance assigned to the game and parked on the edge of the grounds came swiftly across the turf.  Hey, do you get the drift?  The public demands their children be protected at their football games by medics in official transportation being close by!  Isn't there something WRONG with that picture?  Anyway, we were distressed to read in our local paper the next day and in the following days that that boy, from Wakefield, was paralyzed from the neck down and would be a paraplegic for the rest of his life!  Put me off the game right then and there.  Shock and horror.  And insight.

[mabel1015j]

Anecdotal stories can sometimes be misleading, as we know. Our son started playing football at about age 13. He played four years of high school ball. He then went to Gettysburg College, a division three school where Sat afternoon football is a wonderful event; smart young athletes doing something they enjoy, on beautiful campuses, but not cutthroat or  a priority of the schools. He then spent ten yrs coaching in college football, all but one of those years at division 3 schools. He is now coaching at a high school. He's the perfect coach for those (mostly)  boys - a competitive person, smart, caring and a person who gives good advice, someone they can look up to.

Through all those years there was not one serious, traumatizing injury of any of the athletes. Those events get the headlines, but there are millions if athletes who have no tragic injuries.

His first love was basketball, but he's only 5'7" and had no hopes of playing college basketball let alone getting any scholarship monies for it. So now he coaches the jv bb team and is now also coaching the golf team. He just loves to be active and is the antithesis of the "dumb jock" because he is so smart and caring and the atletes can see that about him. He's a good role model for his students and the athletes - boys and girls. They see him in his roles as a good husband and father also.

Yes, I'm bragging. I love the person he us. 

Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

 

[MaryPage]

Dear Jean, brag on, I'm all for it!  I'm sitting here comprising your personal cheering section, believe me!

My second husband played varsity football in High School in Dallas, and I have others near and dear who have played.  I just flat out don't like the game, don't approve of it, and don't believe it is a good thing for our overall culture.  That being said, I cannot and do not feel so much as a speck of animosity or condemnation towards those who participate in the sport or enjoy attending games.  My beloved, darling, most perfect of mortal beings and Love of my Life Bob was an avid fan of the Redskins, and never missed any football game on the telly in his old age if he could help it.  Sons Chip and Chris root for the Cowboys.  None ever got ME to a game, and they all know in exquisite detail just what my thoughts are, and none love me any the less, nor I them.  Bob and I agreed to disagree (well, he did admit that I was probably right, but that he sometimes had to indulge his more primitive instincts), and while we watched all the news programs and documentaries together, plus a lot of PBS BBC shows and some movies, we split up during the hours he indulged in his love of the sports scene.  So please, Jean, you speak your mind and I will speak mine, with all due respect.  I like you MUCH too much to harbor so much as the slightest desire to offend you, I swear.

[Steph]

One of the dearest and gentlest man I know,, is married to  my cousin, He played football and then coached for most of his life. he is now retired, but his athletes still come by the see him and as he has aged and is mostly in a wheelchair,, they come to the house, dig and plant his beloved garden, take him on golf journies even though he simply stays in the cart..So yes, Jean, a good coach is a wonderful thing.

[mabel1015j]

No offense here MaryPage. 

I am a big fan of the cliche "different strokes for different folks" and "variety is the spice of life" as we just commented in the "mystery" discussion. I am an addictive gatherer of information and i learn so much by talking with people who have a different perspective from mine. I feel no compulsion to agree with them, altho sometimes i've changed my mind because of the info they provided me.

Jean

[Steph]

Oh my, different strokes is how I feel about how I live.. I try very hard to let others do it their way as long as they let me do it my way.. I love seniorlearn for the patience  we have with each other. It is fun to be different and we certainly are.

[MaryPage]

Am reading NEUROTRIBES by Steve Silberman, and I have to tell you it is BEYOND wonderful!  It reads very fast and as smooth as silk, is as easy to digest as a vanilla ice cream cone on a hot day in July.  And I am LEARNING so much.  More and more I am convinced that the bottom line with autism is that the huge increase in the numbers of children showing up with it is quite accurate and DOES NOT indicate a lack of awareness earlier in the history of our species, but instead is the mark of a bend in the road of evolution and a branching off of yet another species of the homo genus.  In short, I think autistics are the wave of a future dominant species;  dominant because of their prodigious brains and magnified nervous systems.  What I mean is, so many people are saying "Oh, we've ALWAYS had as many, we just didn't know what they were and so we were labeling them mentally deficient."  Well sure, when they first starting coming along, we did do that, BUT!  But there most definitely were not anything near as many of them, and the new amazing figures of their birthrate are absolutely right on.  Evolutionary.  My morale, insofar as thoughts of the future is concerned, is greatly boosted by the conviction that these children are indeed the surge of our destiny on our small planet!

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting MaryPage - interesting... I have so many TBR but this sounds like it needs to be there - maybe a browse with coffee the next time I am in B&N

[BarbStAubrey]

Wheee we are open - Jane did it... our pre-discussion For Love of Lakes is open and ready AND the link is in the heading for the intro to the book along with the link to the book that is about 3/4ths of the book that is available to us from Amazon - here is the link to the discussion ... http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4803.0

[Steph]

I am going to look at Neuro Tribes

[mabel1015j]

Oh Joy! Oh Joy! Oh Joy! I received in this morning's mail a book that I happened on - I know not where  - but when researching for it found it at Amazon I found it for .99 + 3.99 shipping, and how could I pass that by!!!

It's titled, Women of Ideas: & what men have done to them by Dale Spender, an Australian feminist, who has written several books about women's place in history including, Man Made Language and Invisible Women. When my husband handed me the package and I felt the bulk of it,  I wondered "did I order two books?" It's 700 pages plus, but looks like a wonderful read of women's writings over centuries about how it is to live in the "men's world" and what happened to the women's opinions, publications and thoughts.

I am reading the preface and find it very au courant (to quote Ginny). She gives a little philosophical introduction about her thinking that brought her to compile and write this book. In reading the feminist literature of the 60s and 70s about patriarchy and women living in the male world and how that impacted on us, and discussing it with other women, they began to ask "are we the first generation of women to have felt this way?" Some of them were vaguely aware that women did have a past, but it was shadowy and random.

She lists a whole paragraph of women writers who shared similar concerns from Abigail Adams to Alice Rossi (1973) and says "With the advent of these publications the question of whether women had thought and felt (isolated, invisible, ignored, demeaned, laughed at, considered to be 'sick', because they questioned the systems and posed that patriarchy was a problem) this way before was put to rest - THEY HAD! Another question arose in its place: why didn't I know, why didn't WE know?........Why were women of the present cut off from women of the past and how was this achieved? "

I felt is was a current question because as she continued to talk about what it is to be an "x" in an "o" world and how the people in control can force those without control to abide by their rules or be ostracized, I began to think about what is happening about women's issues today, about how any "x" gets treated similarly in other "o" worlds. Just exchange the words "male control" with the words "white privilege."

We have seen very clearly the attacks on Pres Obama as he dared to become the president of the U.S. Just imagine what it will be like if Hillary becomes president - at least Obama is a male, thereby having some regard by some of that half of the population - or how bad it will get for her in the election period. A huge part of her unfavorable numbers, I am sure, is that she is a woman challenging a male powerhouse. She must be untrustworthy, because she has the audacity to want to have the greatest power/control on earth! How could a mere woman have the intelligence, experience, competence to know she shouldn't share classified information? etc. etc. It's going to be very ugly!

I am going to enjoy this book and will probably share more of it with you as I go along. It's going to take a while - 756 pages! I really wish I had the women's group that I was a part of in the early 70s where we discussed so many of the feminist writings, to talk with about this book. What fun!

Jean

[MaryPage]

I share your enthusiasm, Jean, and look forward to your reports.  Yes, it is sobering to think on the solid, dense walls of stubborn refusal to acknowledge or accept that Obama's two duly elected terms in office have experienced from a bitterly biased portion of our citzenry.  One can only hope a woman elected to lead our beloved nation would not engender an identical blind gut reaction, but I very much fear an even more deeply entrenched spate of hatred.  The hordes of resistance will build ever higher and more impervious dams to prevent much needed legislation from moving through necessary channels toward the final goal of providing the best government possible for all of our people.  Would it were not so.  I would LOVE to be proved wrong!

[mabel1015j]

Oh, sorry about the underlining. I couldn't get it to go away, each time i tried it got worse. I thought i had "cut" it and was going to repost it, didn't know it was posted and didn't edit it.😡😡

[BarbStAubrey]

Hope that is what you intended Jean - if not I can put back any area that still needs an underline - your [ u ] and [ /u ] were following each other with no words between and then it is easy to get an extra [ u ] that followed the entire piece.

[Steph]

Jean, do keep us up to date.The book seems to say a lot of things that many of us have been thinking for years.

[mabel1015j]

Oh, that's great Barb, thanks for taking the time to figure that out. The only change is that "Invisible Women" and "Man Made Language" are two different books.

In reading an old copy of the AARP magazine I saw an interview with Maria Shriver and saw that she has a blog about inspiring people and other interesting musings.  In checking it out, I found some very interesting posts. In one of them about women taking back our power she has a quote from Sheryl Steinberg's book about an issue we're all familiar with about men being considered leaders when they are assertive and vocal and give orders, while women are the b...., agressive, bossy, etc. Think Christie and Trump as opposed to Palin and Clinton.

Remember how Hillary's poll numbers improved in the 2007 campaign when she got emotional in NH ? ...... She became "a woman exhibiting proper behavior" for many. What a shame.

http://mariashriver.com/blog/category/ive-been-thinking/

Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

Knowing a bit about marketing - I am thinking all this we have been experiencing for the last 3 or so years as if going backwards 50 or more years was calculated in prep for the way to bring Hillary down a peg - I think the powers that be saw she was going to run even before Obama's second term and so all women were thrown under the bus in order to play power politics. It is easy for someone with influence and a large bank account to pander to the ego of those who have followers so that social change can become a real outcome.

[MaryPage]

Oh Barbara, I totally agree!

It is just heartbreaking seeing what she is going through, and just IMAGINE donating, as she has done, your entire life to working for your country and your fellow Americans only to see yourself shoved aside almost at the very end of a long and grueling campaign, not in one national campaign, but in TWO!  We all thought like forever that if a woman just managed to get three times the resume of most men, she could compete with the boys.  NOT!

I will freely admit to not being without fault here.  My progressive soul is more in step with Bernie Sanders, and I have had this humongous crush on Joe Biden since he served on the WaterGate Committee back in the early nineteen seventies!  So I am feeling a bit swayed, and more than a little fickle and disloyal.  I am a Big Fan and admirer of Hilary's, but feel my excitement clocks in at a higher number when I contemplate Bernie or Joe.

Hilary was named one of this nation's 100 best lawyers by the ABA.  She was the First Lady of Arkansas.  She was the First Lady of these United States.  She was the Senator from New York.  She was Secretary of State of these United States.  Scheesch, what do you have to DO?

Yes, just as there has been a 7 year and counting conspiracy to use every possible weapon to bring down and ruin the Barack Obama presidency, I perceive a huge, heavily financed, conspiracy to bring down Hilary Clinton, by every foul means they can come up with.  Every lie repeated ad nauseam eventually becomes burned into the conscious thinking of the national audience.  The great loss to this country in both the matter of Obama and in the case of Hilary, is that much of the MEDIA has also been purchased these days.  Shoot, some of the moneybags of the conspiracy OWN the newspapers, radio stations, and television channels that are spewing out the vomit.  We need and deserve a totally unbiased FREE press in this nation;  if our often cited FOREFATHERS knew how low we have sunk in that regard, they would reappear in fulsome display of their centuries of decay and throw up on the Capitol Steps themselves, I swear!

[mogamom]

Sadly, I think Hillary is bringing herself down. 

Many see her First Lady experiences as rising on the back of her very popular husband.  Her experience as Secretary of State is viewed in  luke-warm terms at best - no one seems to be able to name any real outstanding accomplishments there, except the mishandling (being generous here) of the Benghazi attack.

And the appearance of her selling political clout (of course with the assumption that she would land the Democratic nomination for the presidency), is even more condemning in view of the amount of money received - and from whom it was received - for the family foundation.

It only looks like she's playing the same games as her male peers.  She is seen as "one of the boys" and, in this case at least, that is not a good thing. 

Many view her as just another Washington elitist, uncaring, dishonest, and zealous for power.  No different really than how many in Congress and this administration (or most administrations of the past several decades for that matter) are viewed.  So, actually .... I guess that means women have received parity with men?  Sad, really.

[mabel1015j]

I think it is easy to make one sentence generalizations with little specifics. Hillary Clinton's accomplishments? Do we know much about any Sec of State's actual job? Very few SofS have written/worked some big policy or treaty that any of us can name, or that has their name on it. Much of their work is facilitating relationships between other countries and us, encouraging heads of gov't to move in the directions that the USA would like them to.

Who can name some major known "accomplishment" of Condolezza Rice? Colin Powell? Madeleine Albright? Warren Christopher? Etc etc.

She traveled more miles to more countries than any other had before. She pushed huge budget increases for programs for women around the world. Giving out 100 millions of stoves may not seem like a big deal, but it improves safety for women and children immensely. She pressured, without hesitancy, for govt's to improve the conditions and power of women.

[By the close of 2009 there were 25 female ambassadors posted by other nations to Washington; this was the highest number ever.[71] This was dubbed the "Hillary effect" by some observers: "Hillary Clinton is so visible" as secretary of state, said Amelia Matos Sumbana, the Mozambique Ambassador to the United States, "she makes it easier for presidents to pick a woman for Washington."[71] An added fact, of course, was that two other recent U.S. Secretaries of State were women, but Clinton's international fame from her days as First Lady of the United States made her impact in this respect the greatest of the group.[71]

Clinton also included in the State Department budget for the first time a breakdown of programs that specifically concerned themselves with the well-being of women and girls around the world.[64] By fiscal 2012, the department's budget request for such work was $1.2 billion, of which $832 million was for global health programs.[64] Additionally, she initiated the Women in Public Service Project, a joint venture between the State Department and the Seven Sisters colleges. The goal was to entice more women into entering public service, such that within four decades an equal number of men and women would be working in the field.[72]

One specific cause Clinton advocated almost from the start of her tenure was the adoption of cookstoves in the developing world, to foster cleaner and more environmentally sound food preparation and reduce smoke dangers to women. In September 2010, she announced a partnership with the United Nations Foundation to provide some 100 million such stoves around the world within the next ten years, and in subsequent travels she urged foreign leaders to adopt policies encouraging their use.

Nevertheless, there were limitations to her influence: Much of the handling of the Middle East, Iraq, and Iran was done by the White House or Pentagon during her tenure,[153] and on some other issues as well, policy-making was kept inside the White House among Obama's inner circle of advisors.[294] There were also differences of opinion. Clinton failed to persuade Obama to arm and train Syrian rebels in 2012, but overcame initial opposition to gain approval of her visit to Burma in 2011.[153] Clinton's initial idea of having special envoys under her handling key trouble spots fell apart due to various circumstances.[293] Clinton did find bureaucratic success in edging out the U.S. Commerce Department, by having the State Department take a lead role in sales pitches in favor of U.S. companies.[295] In doing so, she helped negotiate international deals for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Westinghouse Electric Company.[295] Clinton believed, more than most prior secretaries, that the commercial aspects of diplomacy and the promotion of international trade were vital to American foreign policy goals.[295] Obama adopted Clinton's view of how to deal with Iran[112] and Clinton's work in organizing international sanctions against that country eventually led to the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action that Secretary Kerry negotiated in 2015; this in effect tied Clinton's legacy with respect to Iran to Obama's.[113][4]/


in mid-2012, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said, "I think she's represented our nation well. She is extremely well respected throughout the world, handles herself in a very classy way and has a work ethic second to none."[4]

As i said i think it is too easy to make generally negative statements about things that many of us, me included, i had to look up this information, don't have any indepth knowledge about.

Jean

[MaryPage]

Well, exactly.  We can look at the glass half full, or half empty.  Same old, same old.  One thing I can see, and have always seen, is that far from being Washington "elitists." the Clintons have always been outsiders here.  And far from being the usual type of politicians, in for the easy ride to power, prestige, and safest of retirement plans, both Clintons have been (and this is probably what attracted them to each other from the git go) highly idealistic and full of dreams of being instruments of making things happen that will make America stronger and a better place for the rest of us to enjoy our lives in, and the world a more united and less warring patchwork quilt of nations.

The Clintons have SERVED, and each has worked prodigiously at doing so with every job they have taken on, every cause they have espoused.  Their enthusiasm and zeal have made that very "Washington Elite" crowd resent them from the git go, wondering where all this hustle and bustle came from and why these two smarty pants do gooders don't learn to tone it all down and go along to get along, the way they have been doing like forever.  They have wished the Clintons to be smeared with whatever their own clever young staffs could come up with and exiled back to the hinterlands of Arkansas, never to be heard of again.  Millions and millions of taxpayer dollars have been spent to bring down these two upstarts, only to find nothing of substance left on the table when one investigation ends and they are forced to look for another quickly in order to keep pumping ephemeral doubts in the minds of confused franchised citizens.  The whole ceaseless barrage of hatred and resentment has curdled my innards these many years, and one can but wonder what a wonderful world this would truly be if a more positive attitude were to be adopted and hearts were to be grateful for the dedication and hard work of these public servants.  No doubt they, like Abe Lincoln and a long line of our dead before and since, will have no ears to hear when a sorrowful nation finally exults in their leadership on the pages of our history books.

[Steph]

I get Margaret and Helen and I have been laughing so hard. It seems that our very religious clerk has been married four times, divorced three times and has two out of wedlock children. Hmm and she has thoughts on the sanctity of marriage, Oh me,, there are whole days I dispair of some women

[MaryPage]

When you have lived such a history of wedded bliss and much of the world looks down their long noses at you, and you cannot get comfortable in your own skin about the details of your life thus far, when someone comes along and suggests you join THEIR community of absolute certitude and Get Saved, complete with a gilt edged pass into the Pearly Gates come death, when you get to march in ahead of all those who previously looked askance, you grab the chance.  The comfort and assurance you now own belong to a branch of Christianity that is totally foreign to my own Sunday School and Bible School and church attendance upbringing, but no matter.  You have this to cling to and you are going to do so like a mindless barnacle, so help you god!
I heard on either the national news or one of the MSNBC programs that she only converted in something like 2011 or therebouts.

[BarbStAubrey]

My gut tells me she is a women in pain and trying to put on a face of respectability for the public - I think she is looking for an authority figure to stand up for her as she may have been looking for that Saviour most of her life - you can see in her face the will that comes to the upper part of her face, eyes and forehead - as if blocking out any logic and if she is very very good following the dictates of this religious group and taking it to the nth degree she will feel better and the pain will be abated.

I lived in Lexington for 12 years and half of those years with the Girl Scouts we went into the mountains regularly to teach adults some American History, the youngsters were inoculated and the senior age girls spent a few weeks living in these communities to get to know the mountain life. These communities are still rather isolated and although Rowan County has Morehead Collage the collage has very little influence or involvement with the rest of Morehead much less the rest of the County.

This is a part of the world that leans on traditions that were brought with the first settlers - back in the 50s and 60s when I was living there as roads were being built there were still buried communities being found with folks speaking and dressing and living Elizabethan England - after the whiskey tax went in there was no way they could get their crops down those mountains to the river where as barrels of whiskey could make that kind of journey - the whiskey tax put them out of business and so the simply faded into the mountains.

This women may only be two generations from that kind of life and therefore her primitive view of Christianity is steeped in folk tradition and social behavior far more than a Christian interpretation of the Bible. And if she is a convert than she had nothing to hang onto except folk ways, growing up - with that many marriages and her being heavy and not kept but rather plain I would bet she had those children as a result of an unpleasant experience - we know there is something in all of us when we have experienced trauma we want to fix it with someone else - and she could even be trying to fix it with this man who she had his children to 'make' him love her and stand up for her -  if those youngsters were conceived with love than somehow she is trying to better some authority figure while looking for the protection of an authority figure.

I see the panic in her eyes in the last photos when she was going to jail and all I can see is a women who is steeling herself to withstand more than she should take and she is going to be in some mess when she gets out that she will not even know what is happening but the lord will have a Martyr like never before because that will be her only way to hold it together. I could be talking through my hat but my gut is saying she is in a pit of pain and not because of this issue.   

[mabel1015j]

Wow! Great posts theis morning!

[MaryPage]

I think we are pretty much on the same page here, Barbara.  Another point in this whole mess:  This woman's MOTHER was County Clerk for something in the neighborhood of 37 years, and albeit it is an ELECTED position, when the mother finally retired the Daughter ran and won the job in her place.  And hired, this daughter, her OWN son as an employee in her office.  So my guess would be this is not a densely populated area.

[mabel1015j]

Helen and Margaret are my 21st century Molly Ivans! 

Telling like it is!