Women's Issues

[mabel1015j]

Barb - I love the way sports draw a community together. My high school Friday nights were always at a game thru football and basketball season. I lived in a small town just like you speak of, little to do, but a great community feel about supporting the high school teams. One nephew has been the basketball coach in that town for almost three decades. My son is the football coach of a similar town, altho in a suburban area where there are many more things to do.

My question alludes to spending 60 MILLION dollars on a stadium, no matter where the money comes from. A community gathering together to build a soccer field is quite a different thing. Could the community make do (😜) with a two million dollar football field and put 50+ MILLION into other programs, say academics, art, music? That would never happen. That saddens me so.

Big bucks are collected all over the country for sports programs, no such campaign would happen to support art or music or academic programs! What's up with companies, wealthy men and local residents having that much passion for only sports?

Jean

[mabel1015j]

The complicated relationships of Queens Elizabeth and Victoria and Prince Phillip!

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/rulers20thcentury/f/How-Are-Queen-Elizabeth-Ii-And-Prince-Philip-Related.htm?utm_content=20150909&utm_medium=email&utm_source=exp_nl&utm_campaign=list_womenshistory&utm_term=list_womenshistory

Lol

One of my favorite nonfiction books is Grandmama of Europe, about Victoria, of course, and how her progeny have ruled over Europe. Let me check that title, I think that's the right one.

yes, it is, the author is Theo Aronson

[BarbStAubrey]

I hear you Jean but then I came to terms years ago my taste and values are not shared by everyone - and for me to judge how others accumulate the zeal for an activity is really sour grapes on my part because I could not or do I know of those who share my interests do the same as those who can and have. We all have a different level or placement for what we value - where I am not into football I do smile when I see the enthusiasm and urge to be the best among those who are into the game - Frankly I would not spend a few hours watching a baseball game or lord help us golf  - tried to learn once and on the way home from my second lesson fell in the parking lot and broke my arm and some wrist bones - thank god because I thought it was a wasted use of my time - I love to swim and used to sail but watching a sailboat race did not get my heart racing and the same for watching a swimming meet.

Now I will watch and get hooked into a basketball game but for a small town before they have developed the kind of community it takes to build a winning football team they could play football out of doors with planks on buckets for seats - where as Basketball means immediate cost - even if played outdoors it would require a huge concrete slab and to be played indoors not only required a room with a wood floor but it had to take place for a short time in mid-winter or else the additional cost of AC. plus the size of the gym limited the participation of onlookers. 

So the start of these teams that grow into the kind of support that can build a multi million dollar stadium has to be feasible given the assets of a small town - vacant land, cool nights as opposed to hot hot days sitting or playing in the sun that lasts till at least Thanksgiving and sometimes longer and then picks up again by mid to late March.

Little kids, whose interest will feed the sport can play football on a Saturday morning in the spring and fall before the noon heat sets in and again, there is little to no expense preparing a field - some places have little league and that is the problem, baseball became so super organized early in a kids association with the game that the fun turned into a competitive race run by the adults. And those power hungry adults make no room for community participation.

As much as I enjoy a good basketball game it does not garner the enthusiasm and excitement of a football game - there are no tailgate picnics prepared by moms and served by dads in the parking lot before a basketball game - there are no marching bands strutting their stuff - Basketball can have a star - football is not a one man show even with a star quarterback - school choir and band is limited to those who can afford lessons or instruments as a little kid that will grow into school age interest. We have seen what donating to the poor does - as Oprah learned, very little - it helps only the family that can take hold, want and push for education and then they move out of the area - where as a community built around a sport includes everyone

If all this developed community on and off the field creates the kind of fever that exceeds the average investment in the sport's field and watching stadium then, to me the invested money is far more meaningful than those who spend thousands on some, to me inane, collection of dolls or toy trains or star wars or garages full of sports cars or whatever - the difference is they are individual collections and do not bring out the pride of a supportive community. That sense of pride and community has my interest even if I do see another worthwhile endeavor - beside I doubt it is an either/or -

When I look at the good work these 'stars' of any sport do in their community when they no longer play the game it is astounding. They may not have the education of our sons and daughters that attended the same collage but they sure impact the lives of more folks than our sons and daughters ever will.   

[mabel1015j]

I agree with eve rything you said, i still believe tens of millions ofdollars spent on a high school stadium is a waste of money, even if it were for my son's team.  . We agree to disagree, which is o.k. In my book.

Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

 

[MaryPage]

It's ok with me, as well and all, but I cannot help lamenting in my soul what I see as a dumbing down of the ingredients of a public High School diploma of today as compared with one from my times:  1947.  Granted where History and Science are concerned, there is ever so much more to learn.  But surely today's technology makes the entire learning process much easier because today's students have instant access to every possible facet of information.  I mean, when I was researching and writing a paper, I was pretty much limited to my textbook and what was available in the very limited school library.  Now research tools are truly limitless.  So why don't today's kids all carry at least the academic load that my entire graduating class did?  Granted I have great grandchildren who are taking AP and IB courses and attending special schools for the gifted, and I am dumbfounded at the load they carry and how much they are learning, but these are the exception and not the rule.  COLLEGES, for crying out loud, are tearing their hair out because Freshmen are pouring in, and these supposed to be the best the country has to offer, and they cannot write (make that print) a coherent sentence!  One wonders who wrote their college application essays!  Even here at the Naval Academy, where only the best and the brightest need apply, the remedial work that has to be given in the most ordinary of disciplines such as English and Mathematics before they can bring a class up to snuff is APPALLING!  I know, I know.  I'm a stupid complaining old woman!  But hey, this is what I hear from those still in the teaching workforce!

[BarbStAubrey]

Well I agree but then I have no clue how to get around that teachers are now dealing with students that need physical care and they need mamas and dads - sounds awful but I am amazed at how many handicapped kids are in the schools that a teacher is now expected to be a nurse and physical therapist in order to handle her class - and then the estimate is that a quarter to a third of the classes in a public school regardless rural or city one or both parents are in jail and then we did go through about 20 or more years ago the whole issue of tax dollars only paying for reading writing and arithmetic - it is only in the past few years that the voices saying kids learn as much or more from the subjects eliminated have even been heard much less part of these straining school budgets.

And then industry has stuck its hands into the economic pie of school funding saying it should be the grounds for a steady flow of workers towards their industry so that school is no longer a way to open the mind and establish personal values but it has been taken over as the initial preparation for a job that used to be done by the company at the companies expense during the first 6 months of employment. Having done away with vocational high school the average student is receiving the education similar to the old vocational high students and only those whose parents know what is needed and expected in collage are taking the AP classes.

[Steph]

Oh my, we had a football team in high school in Delaware and also at the U. of Del., but it did not seem to rise to the heights.. We were really excited in the last two years of high school just to get lights.. My sons went to college at schools that do not emphasize football, As a matter of fact, it was hysterical one year at Tufts, my oldest went there and they had a winning season, Which shocked the entire college.. Their stadium is or was mostly a laid back sort of football field with wooden bleachers.. All in all, not an important part of their lifel

[maryz]

In Chattanooga/Hamilton County, each high school has its own stadium.  And they're all falling apart.  One has just been condemned by the city, and another is about half closed off and unusable.  One of the front page stories in the paper this morning was that the school board has said there's just no money to repair or replace the stadiums (stadia?).  And, for the first time, there's some mention of having one or two stadiums that all the teams in the system would use.  It will be interesting to see what happens when this turns into a p..sing contest.

[jane]

In this small rural town, I always shake my head at the money spent without a blink on a stadium for our high school that is used...maybe 6 times a year? AND, don't forget the additional "practice field" because we couldn't mess with the grass or special turf on the "real" field! We have a separate padded or whatever track for the track team at the hs.  I wonder if the School Board would approve something that expensive for use 6 times a year by the science class or the language class or for an English class.

[MaryPage]

You hit the nail on the head there!

[Steph]

Orlando spent millions revamping an old football stadium, that is probably used six times a year at best. The college has its own stadium, Orlando doesnt have a pro football team, the soccer teams is gettting its own high priced stadium. Male politicians seem to love football stadiumsl

[MaryPage]

You've got THAT right!  And males rule.

Would that they would fully fund early intervention therapies and training for the learning disabled, dyslexic, and autistic children, who, if they did so, could and would go on to lead productive and independent lives and become earners who paid back into the tax revenues.  But no!  Oh my, no!  These children will never be FOOTBALL PLAYERS!  Best they wind up in group homes and drain from the taxpayer's resources for as long as they last.  Put the money on those sports "heroes" (I have NEVER been able to figure out how under any definition they can be called heroes, but the useage persists!) and feel that visceral thrill in your gut and expansion of your pride when you go off with your chums to watch the teams prove their manliness in those brightly colored and expensive uniforms while those buxom little cheerleaders strut their stuff.

Priorities!

[Steph]

Oh MaryPage, the mental image you made is wonderful. I did need a laugh this morning.
I may get slammed about this, but I am concerned. When you look at the videos of the masses moving through Europe.Even though the commentators love to spotlight families, there are many many more males, all in the late teens, twenties, etc alone. I really believe that some bad trouble may come from this.

[MaryPage]

I listened to an in depth explanation of what is going on, and it seems to be this:  these are mostly Syrians, and a good many (no, not a majority, but a good many) are Christians.  All are middle and upper classes, mostly well educated.  Have you noticed how many of them speak ENGLISH?  The majority ARE NOT Arabs, even those who are Muslim tend not to be Arabs, and therefore not in favor with ISIL.  The fundamentalist terrorist groups are all of the Sunni sect and want to kill all the Shia and the non-Arabs.  Very complicated, but we need to sort it out in order to understand why whole families have given up all they have to flee:  they know they will be KILLED!  Many of their kin already have been.  These people have had their homes bombed to smithereens, and not by us, but by the Arab terrorists.  They have sold off all they have to get out of there.  It COSTS MONEY to pay for boats, buses, trains, and food.  The poor are left behind.  The Sunni Arabs have no reason to flee.  My heart breaks for those people trying to save their little ones from death.  As for the young, single men:  these are from families too poor to come up with the funds to leave as a family, so they sell off all they possibly can and send just one young man, hoping he will make it and find a new country and a job and send funds so that they may follow and join him.  These young men are their only hope!

[MaryPage]

Here is another stark reason the families are pouring into Europe.  When it is that or starve, you shove off and go.  Hope is all you have left in this world.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34196629

http://news.yahoo.com/asylum-in-europe--the-difference-between-migrants-and-refugees-and-what-s-at-stake-183639355.html#

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?_r=0

[Steph]

I note that non try for Russia or any of the peaceful arab countries or Africa or the orient.. I just feel that the small european countries cannot afford to have this sort of influx..

[MaryPage]

Where in Africa?  Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria:  all in turmoil.  How can they get to Asia, and who there would take them?  The Chinese?  They have a huge population problem now.  All of the Arab states are up in arms with factions warring, and of the Muslim peoples fleeing here, most are Shia or smaller sects that the Sunni hate.  Most of those Arab states are Sunni.  Iran is Shia but not Arab!  There are no peaceful Arab states other than Jordan, and Jordan has taken over FOUR MILLION of them!  The Russian people are totally xenophobic, and have never welcomed anyone in.  So the ifs, buts and ands multiply and are myriad.  Bottom line, these folk HAVE no where to go other than up into Europe.  We have, and have done so CONSCIOUSLY, with many of our politicians still insisting upon no birth control whatsoever, overpopulated this world and now we have reached the point in time long predicted by those studying the figures and issuing the warnings:  millions of children will die.  Now Hungary is saying they will start shooting them just as soon as their razor wire fence is completed!  Yes, the children, too!  Look at the maps and tell me where these people can walk to?  Do you hear anyone offering to fetch them?  They are dead ducks, and they basically know it, but desperation makes them attempt to seek a safe haven.  There is within every human being a strong desire to live, and most especially to have one's children survive.

[BarbStAubrey]

If Germany takes 1 million refuges that represents only 1% of their population.

Jordan before the influx had a population of 4.97 million and now with only partial numbers for those who fled to Jordan officially Jordan is just below 7 million. Only using the official numbers they have added 70% to their population, all without anything, these were not the folks who had the kind of money it takes to reach Germany that includes a boat road that cost each member of the family minimum $1200. Those in Jordan who do have that kind of money have recently all left for Germany leaving the poor behind.

If we are trying to visualize this migration as compared to the migration from El Salvador, Costa Rico and Mexico remember, of those who were NOT born in this country there are over 13 million - a big difference. Also, the vast majority of those from South of us who migrated were laborers rather than middle class professionals which make up the migration reaching Germany.

[MaryPage]

You are exactly right, and another sad thing to consider is that the very poor and uneducated are going to be all that is left of Syria when the battles die down there.  That country will be swept clean of their professionals:  leaving no doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners. Did you notice one man fleeing said he had been a factory OWNER until bombs destroyed both his home and his factory?  It is civil wars such as this that put civilizations and cultures back in the third world fix.  Basically, that is what happened when Islam was, in fact, the leading intellectual civilization in the world, back in the 7th, 8th and 9th centuries A.D.  Wars within Islam itself, all the various sects, plus wars with other civilizations and the rise of fundamentalist Islam decimated and ruined that great culture.  War drags a lot of good, forward thinking cultures back into the abyss of myth and ignorance.  Also, the huge migration of peoples seeking refuge from those wars changes the makeup of the tribes they wind up living with.  Unfortunately, we are in a place today, with the planet overpopulated, that we cannot sustain these migrations.
We had a refugee problem here last year, although our politicians and media have been reluctant on the whole to tell the truth of it.  Tens of thousands of CHILDREN came pouring over our border all by themselves, without family other than those that traveled with siblings.  Their poor, beleaguered parents paid to send them up here for safety, as their tribes, clans, sects, whatever, were being sought out and killed by ethnic or political groups wanting to cleanse El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras of all who were not like themselves.  Too poor to come here themselves, they sent their young children who were able to walk and help one another to get up here and have a chance to LIVE.  These were true refugees, and yet we have not officially recognized them as such.  Politicians are referring to them as "illegal Mexicans."  They were neither Mexicans nor illegal migrants, but true refugees and the last hope of their ethnic groups.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thinking about it MaryPage - this migration out of Syria and the Middle East are as we have been made aware the educated middle class leaving behind the poor - the poor are not very well educated and as Obama said, and was quoted to his dismay, that fear turns the uneducated to guns and religion -

OK the big issue we hear nothing about is that the Middle East is a organized and governed by tribalism - there is no democracy even in voting - you vote as your tribe leader tells you to vote - their income is affected by tribal purity. Most of the wealth producing industry is owned or financed within a tribe - you break with the tribe and you do not get your cut of the profits - even parks are owned by tribes and police can detect if you are or not a tribal member - we may not know the clues but then we can pretty much see who belongs in an area and who does not. It is also the basis for a girl wearing the clothing that hides her from public gazes - if she marries outside her tribe not only she but her entire family no longer receives the annual sum from the profits of the tribal investments.

Those in the Middle East who all have now been exposed to the standard of living in other parts of the world question their standard of living and typical to the strong arm tactic of tribal leaders from the history of tribes the stronger that leadership the more folks will comply to what the leader knows how to accomplish - yes, there are differences in Sunni versus Shia but that is a secondary layer to the tribal connection.

Some tribes are huge with millions and others small with a few thousand - so far I found over 300 tribes - we never hear which tribe is associated with what the fight is about only as if it were a Shia Sunni fight - yes, some tribes are all Shia or Sunni but some are not sliced along religious lines.

Tribes have always fought with each other like a huge never ending chess game. Those leaders who can cause a thorn in the side of one tribe to go after another that is the manipulative leaders enemy is how it has worked - so we fell for it - the thorn that was probably about oil and oh dear look how badly Saddam Hussein treats his people so that we were horrified and in we went fighting what looked like a Shia war to get rid of the centuries of leadership by the Sunni that if we really can get to the bottom of it was probably a Tribe that was Shia that extended it living area into Iran attempting to topple the tribe or tribes that have held the power for centuries.

Well my question is who were and from what tribe were the seven defected Syrian officers who started this mess in Syria - their grip was the same used by Bush against Saddam Hussein - they hated the Ba'athists which is what Saddam Hussein was as is Assad - the Ba'athists started in Syria. The Ba'athists was the best hope for the Middle East however, IT INTERFERED WITH US PROFIT MAKING INTERESTS.

A Ba'athist society seeks enlightenment, renaissance of Arab culture, values and society. It supports the creation of single-party states, and rejects political pluralism in an unspecified length of time – the Ba'ath party theoretically uses an unspecified amount of time to develop an enlightened Arabic society. Ba'athism is based on principles of Arab nationalism, pan-Arabism, Arab socialism, as well as social progress. It is a SECULAR ideology. A Ba'athist state supports socialist economics to a varying degree, and supports public ownership over the heights of the economy but opposes the confiscation of private property. Socialism in Ba'athist ideology does not mean state socialism or economic equality, but modernisation; Ba'athists believe that socialism is the only way to develop an Arab society which is truly free and united.

And so our oil interests would mean working with the government or if a tribe owns the oil well than we would continue to work with the tribal leadership. However, the Ba'athist philosophy would allow for a Middle East to join the twentieth century at least if not the twenty-first century - ISIS is pulling folks back to an society run on traditional religious values and corruption.  Assad was a good guy if you think Ba'athist's are the way to go and now has become ruthless like any fighting a civil war - we forget that even during our own Civil War one of the 5 mentioned on all of known history that used the scorched earth tactic to win, that even Stalin used it against fleeing German Soldiers - we are the only nation that it was used against women and children by Sherman - so when we listen to the news with all the horrors they are pinning on Assad - yes, but it is war.

Plus, now the original group that started this mess are a minority as others piled in that we interpreted as the Arab Spring but it was the usual way that tribal interests are played out - I have lots and lots of books, over a dozen, I can share the title and authors, most 80% written by Middle Eastern authors rather than English or American authors, who come from our individualistic thinking - there is no individualism in a tribal society.

All to say with the middle class gone the poor will docilely abide by their tribal leaders and turn to their religion and guns used against other tribes as they have for centuries and yes, this sends the Middle East back into the Middle Ages where it was just tip toeing out of.  However, it keeps bribery intact and an easier time for those taking profit out of the Middle East by dealing with tribal leaders rather than a government interested in progress without religious law running the show.

[BarbStAubrey]

this is a another area of the world and directly involves the life of women in Italy by an Italian author who is all the rage.   

http://www.theguardian.com/books/audio/2015/sep/04/elena-ferrante-naples-quartet-podcast?CMP=EMCBKSEML3964

[MaryPage]

I watched the Republican debate on CNN last night, and the one thing that upset me more than any other was the blatant lies Ted Cruz told about Planned Parenthood.

I know them to be lies, and it has appeared ever so briefly in newspapers and magazines and on television that they are lies, but no one seems to notice or care.  PBS has done some radio shows giving the correct information, also;  but hey, the people who listen to their radio are already informed.

What is blowing my mind is how the public and the media can let this stuff slide.  And where, I am wondering, is the wave of push back I keep expecting from the millions upon millions of women Planned Parenthood has helped?  From Planned Parenthood and its big time supporters themselves?  I have seen Cecile Richards appear on shows like Rachel Maddow and Chris Matthews, and she always sets the record straight.  But again, these shows have loyal followers who already know the truth.  Yet when the entire country is tuned in to One Big Show and Cruz lets fly with the terrible lies, no one controdicts him.  Why?

For the record, there will be no indictment and trial for Planned Parenthood about selling baby parts.  The investigations of this terrible lie have already taken place and it was found that Planned Parenthood was doing NO SUCH THING!  Also, the tape made by that fanatical right wing fundamentalist group was studied carefully by the authorities, the original was demanded and compared, and it was found to have been a dramatically doctored film edited and put together in such a way as to condemn the people working at one Planned Parenthood clinic.  But with Planned Parenthood having been found without fault and this film having been proved to be a fraud, WHY & HOW can our media tolerate Cruz continuing to tell the Big Lie?  This really guts my belief in fairness and truth.

[BarbStAubrey]

I think everyone is tuning in because they enjoy a media free for all circus no different than the superbowl - not sure how many are taking any of them seriously. I wouldn't worry till next winter when we start to get more serious with actual Caucasus. Now they are simply like kids back in the early part of the 20th century who thought it great fun to shoot fireworks off at each other while standing on opposite sides of the street. 

[MaryPage]

Here is a fascinating site.  If you want to know, for instance, WHAT answers they gave that were false, click on the false or whatever and it will give you an exact list.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/fact-checking-2016-gop-presidential-candidates/

[mogamom]

For the record, there will be no indictment and trial for Planned Parenthood about selling baby parts.  The investigations of this terrible lie have already taken place and it was found that Planned Parenthood was doing NO SUCH THING!  Also, the tape made by that fanatical right wing fundamentalist group was studied carefully by the authorities, the original was demanded and compared, and it was found to have been a dramatically doctored film edited and put together in such a way as to condemn the people working at one Planned Parenthood clinic.

Where did you find this info?  What 'authorities'?  I haven't seen anything like this?  I keep hearing journalists (even CNN last night) stating emphatically that the videos are lies, but I haven't seen anything like a real study having been done?

I heard the producer of the videos in an interview - he explained that they were edited as they were 20 hours in length.  Then I saw an article (pro-Democrat) that covered Democrat congressmen invited to hear the group; they received unedited copies of the dvd's (as did Republican congressmen).

Planned Parenthood is an organization with many resources at hand - lawyers on retainer, etc.  And, if these videos are really untrue, and detrimental to their organization as they are, surely they can (and should) sue?  That would settle it all immediately!  But why haven't they? 

[MaryPage]

They probably have.  I don't know.  As for what I wrote, I have heard and read it over and over, just always bit pieces in passing, except for when I have heard and seen Cecile Richards.  That is my beef, i.e., that the facts are not writ large for all to see and hear, whereas the lies are loud and clear.
I have a relationship here.  I grew up with Planned Parenthood.  Used to accompany my aunt some days when she went there on one errand or another, and I would sit on the end of someone's desk and read or color until she was ready to scoop me up and whisk me off to wherever it was we were headed.  I knew everyone there some 75+ years ago;  probably all dead now.  My aunt was the President of the Washington D.C. chapter for years and years, and I am familiar with and proud of the organization.  It is and always has been and always will be all about women's health, and if you do not personally BELIEVE this, I suggest you go to a clinic or an office and introduce yourself and explain that you would like to hear their side of the question.  It is as simple as that.

[MaryPage]

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/07/31/indiana-clears-planned-parenthood-of-wrongdoing/204705


http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2015/09/house-gop-planned-parenthood-may-be-innocent-but-who-cares.html

[Steph]

Fiorina is just as bad.... I have looked at several true and false articles and they all without a flinch say that what she said she saw was a lie. No living babies lying anywhere. She did a bad job as a CEO and is not any better, but the debates actually remind me of the stories of ancient Rome.. Shall we turn out thumbs down???

[MaryPage]

I agree.  That she is.  Only worse, because she is betraying so many millions of other women.

And yes, the news shows last night were full of being aghast at her lying so blatantly.  I can only think that some zealot she trusts assured her that that was what was in the video he or she saw, and so Carly is willing to swear that SHE saw those things.  I heard it was on the front page of the very Republican WALL STREET JOURNAL that she could not possibly have seen such a tape.

Oh dear!  I labored so hard and so faithfully for so long, 30 years it was, for the Republican Party.  The party of Lincoln and Eisenhower.  They must be truly uneasy in their graves.   By the way, Bernie Sanders was on Rachel Maddow last night, and they were like peanut butter and grape jelly:  perfectly in sync and just what the tummy ordered after lurching so insanely through the tall tale telling sound bites that are being touted as debating.  Wow!  My old debating society would have seen all of its members expelled from the ranks if we had tried anything of the kind!  We had to have in our possession all sources, backup and FACTS.  What fun it was!  We met every other Wednesday night in a party room in the back of a Chinese Restaurant in Centreville, Virginia.  Our host and founder taught History at George Mason University and wrote a whole lot of books about the Civil War.

[mogamom]

No living babies lying anywhere.

It was in a video.  Have you seen the videos?  Even CNN, doing fact checks after the debate, said it was just a very short piece of the video.

I have a relationship with Planned Parenthood also; both good and bad experiences.  I try to keep an open mind.  I too have heard bits and pieces.  Indiana (and I will look carefully) probably cleared their agencies?  I think the states are handling the matter - some quite different than others.

 I do not believe that Planned Parenthood has sued.  They sought an injunction on the release of the videos so they could prepare a response.  That injunction has long since been lifted.  Maybe 'bits and pieces' is all the media can give without making themselves liable?  I don't know.  I'm sure they are being careful.  But ALL congresspersons have access to the uncut videos.   My allegiance is to women and families - not to  a multi-million dollar agency.

I was encouraged to see that a group of feminists (without a religious affiliation) have formed an organization:  Feminists for Non-Violent Choices.  They contend (and I have some agreement here, having counseled many women in these situations) that abortion is the greatest hoax men have played on women.

[mogamom]

"... after an investigation sparked by a shady anti-choice organization's heavily edited videos was completed. ...
The move came just days after The Center for Medical Progress released a deceptive video claiming that Planned Parenthood was "selling aborted baby parts" that was roundly called out by the media for "show[ing] nothing illegal" and having selectively edited footage. The investigation was launched despite the fact Planned Parenthood of Indiana and Kentucky "does not participate in any tissue donation program."  "

A quote from the first citation.  Like debate (and I think Carly Fiorana and Ben Carson actually had more researchable facts in their arguments) formal writing (including journalism) requires unbiased reporting.  These issues are so emotional I have a hard time finding unbiased reporting - as is the complaint on both sides.  I wish someone would report factual material without the constant editorials; an example is highlighted above.

[mabel1015j]

The sad fact is that integrity was no where in sight for most of those candidates. (I'm not aware of any lies spoken by Bush or Paul) Huckabee, Fiorini, not to mention Trump who just sputters and spits out any absurb thing that hops onto his brain all misrepresented the truth. Paul was right, Trump behaves like a 15 yr old, "whatever I have to say to dispute you at the moment, including name-calling! Facts be gone!"

It is also very sad that Fiorini doesn't have more fortitude in standing for women. Even if I was anti-abortion, I would be able to understand the difference between the 97% of their services that are so helpful to women and have nothing to do with abortion and that none of their federal funds are used for abortion services. Apparently most of the Republican representatives can't be objective adults concerning this issue either. I'm very sad at the disappearance from the public forum of moderate Republicans.

Trump's non-response to the audience member who said Obama was a Muslin was appalling, as well as his not countering that Muslins in general are not a problem to this country. He, and others on that stage, need to grow up and give us some adult, responsible debate. Hillary just said the comments have "no place in our politics......it was discriminatory......"

[mogamom]

I wish Hillary would stop side-stepping calls for debate.  It's easy to criticize the other side when you aren't putting yourself on the line, don't you think?

Fiorino did step up and 'defend women', though I don't know if it was heard.  The sound bites did not reflect what happened in the debates, do you think?  They were highly edited for the 'let's you and them fight' crowd, I think.  Well...there are those pesky ratings, eh?

97% of their services that are so helpful to women and have nothing to do with abortion and that none of their federal funds are used for abortion services.

I have seen this argument touted frequently, but when I attempted to analyze the data it seems to be quite deceptive - again, on both sides.  Planned Parenthood reports each separate service as a unit of service.  And counseling includes all forms, including counseling for/preparing for abortion.  And dispensing birth-control includes abortifacients.  It is very unclear how much of their over-all services are reflected in the 'abortion' area, which is one of the complaints of congress.

At one time they were the agency to go to for women's health; that just isn't true any more.  And other agencies, many of which do a fantastic job, do not get the same recognition - or funding.

[mabel1015j]

Of course, Jeb Bush couldn't come up with one AMERICAN woman in history who should be on the $10 bill is appalling also. He said Margaret Thatcher!!! Really!?! You have to kowtow so much to your right wing supporters that you can't come up with an American!?! Even Ayn Rand??? Or someone as non-partisan as Harriet Tubman or Harriet Beecher Stowe??? Of course either one od those might lose some southern Rep support.........as I said "no integrity"!!

I'm soooooo sad about our political process.

The Democrats are going to have 5 or 6 debates. We do have more than a year before the elections. Just because the Reps have started their campaigns and need a longer process is not a reason for the Dems to start. If your opposition was making fools of themselves, would you interrupt their behavior? They are shooting themselves in the foot so why should the Dems interrupt that? It does not benefit the Dems to start debates at this point.

The Speaker of the House just restated the lie that PP sells fetal tissue. This has been debunked by objective, non-partisan sources.


Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

I am so tired of this nonsense of folks who disagree with the law wanting to break the law by doing all they can to discourage women from making their own choice as if we live in the shoes of every women and therefore, we think we can treat her like a child because we know what is best for her - we have no idea what is a woman's health situation is or what is her ability to raise a child - abortions have been taking place since the before Christ so give it a rest - enough is enough -

Sorry I am seeing this issue of hammering away at abortion as far more than sad - we do not call the kid who is blooded day after day in school living a sad lie - these tactics are those of a bully trying to take away someone's legal right to make a decision because they would make another decision - fine then the law is not stopping anyone from making whatever decision they think is best for themselves - and if there are younger women in their family and feel the younger women should act as if royal administration adminstered all behavior than fine, tell them what to do -

This nonsense is no different than Kim Davis who thinks her viewpoint on behavior is cause for an individual exception to the law - and because it is in the name of her version of God that she and now critiques of abortion  are suggesting they should trump the law and they insist on bringing up their views like animal leavings any place and any time - Well the US was established so we do not have any version of God dictating the rules - we have a law in place - they either obey it or get the like minded to change it -

There are no like minded here in this discussion wanting the law to change - I am tired of coming into this discussion risking putting up with harassment and bullying - There is no one in this discussion that agrees with the anti-abortion viewpoint so why keep bringing it up unless it is to spoil for a fight or to bully a group a people - as a contributer to this discussion the title says it is about woman not about birth or abortion - enough...

The word woman does not translate into womb - we are far more than our ability to reproduce - I am so tired of being limited in the mind of same by the tricks our wombs can perform - I thought we were past all of that - if folks like wearing their womb on their sleeve or as a hat - fine but why in a group that sees woman as far more and sees women as having a capable mind of her own - rather than 3 year olds that have been taken in - sheesh it is a wonder any of us got through collage much less run them - women are not tricked - they do what they have to do just as they have since before Christ - the only difference is we were civilized enough that it was thought the procedure should no longer be done in back rooms and allies -

So just please stop brining up this argument here where there are no takers - find like minded folks to share thoughts of anti abortion rather than harassing those who do not agree with that concept...

[MaryPage]

I don't know what y'all are talking about!  There ARE to be Democratic debates!  Hilary was talking about looking forward to them earlier this week!

Tuesday, October 13, 2015  CNN Democratic Primary Debate
Location: Wynn Las Vegas  Sponsors: CNN, Nevada Democratic Party
Moderator: Anderson Cooper

Saturday, November 14, 2015  CBS News Democratic Debate
Aired On: CBS   Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Sponsors: CBS News, KCCI, the Des Moines Register
Moderator: John Dickerson

Saturday, December 19, 2015  ABC News Democratic Primary Debate
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire  Sponsors: ABC News, WMUR

Sunday, January 17, 2016  NBC News Democratic Primary Debate
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Sponsors: NBC, Congressional Black Caucus Institute

As for Abortion, it is the law of this land, and I am sick to DEATH of people of other ideas than my being able to have control over my own body with the protection of this law,  trying to force their religious beliefs on me.  Hey, these are the same people who scream bloody blue murder if it is THEIR religious beliefs they feel are being trampled on insofar as their own selves are concerned, but it is okay to trample on MY beliefs, even to the point of allowing me to DIE (and the fetus, too) because there must be no Abortion even to save the life of the pregnant woman.  That quite simply and purely curdles my blood, and to say it is God's will that women should die in those circumstances is the height of human hubris and to me means that it gives men a sick frisson of sexual pleasure to imagine women having to die in this way.  Each is probably wishing they could watch it happen and enjoy themselves even more.  Sick they are:  sick, sick, sick. 
And Disgusting!

[mabel1015j]

Barb - I prefer to let people comment, regardless of which side they are on, as long as they are being respectful in their comments. It makes for a much more interesting discussion, regardless of the topic, than if everyone agrees with each other.

Historiann - blogger on women throughout history - has an interesting perspective on why Fiorina made that explosive comment about PP at the debate.

http://historiann.com/2015/09/18/ghost-children-carly-fiorinas-invocation-of-fetal-and-maternal-suffering/#more-25943

Jean

[MaryPage]

I found that fascinating, Jean.  Thanks!

[BarbStAubrey]

Jean you are right - free speech and all - however, there is a difference between free speech and harassment when a johnny one note has only one gripe that is attempting to re-fight the law of the land I get fed up - if we had others in this discussion that agreed with the johnny one note I could understand but over and over and over the same note and being more outrageous with such lack of compassion during each foray wears -  makes me run further from wanting to compromise and only gets me out of sorts.