Author Topic: Women's Issues  (Read 391962 times)

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2360 on: January 06, 2016, 09:00:20 AM »
Understanding another culture is really important, but just now I am realizing that Muslim has to extremely different cultures and they seem to be deadly enemies. Christianity seems to have matured enough to not think that different versions of it are heresy.. At least mostly.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2361 on: January 06, 2016, 03:25:20 PM »
Yes, definitely!  Understanding THAT these different cultures and beliefs exist is vitally important information for every single person working in international trade, diplomacy, politics and so on.  When I hear some of our own public figures displaying abysmal knowledge of these things, I cringe and grind my teeth.

I remember it was back in the very early sixties that I was studying the African continent with a fierce determination to get a picture and an understanding in my head.  Particularly fascinated with Nigeria at that time, learning about that country reminded me of second year Latin in High School.  We learned right from the git go Caesar's description of Gaul (mostly France in Europe) as being divided into 3 parts, and as I studied the history and currant situation in Nigeria I found myself murmuring:  Omnia Nigeria tres partes divisa est!

Well, that may be poor Latin, but you get the point.  I learned that Nigeria, like so many phony nations manufactured by Colonial Powers, was always at war with itself.  Muslims across the north, Yoruba Southwest and Ibo Southeast.  Hundreds of tribes, really, but these were the principals in each section, with the Ibo being the brains of the nation, if not of the continent itself.  Some years later when this tribe rebelled and attempted to set up its own nation, I cheered them on.  They lost, and were pretty much wiped out.  Pity.  Also a pity I realized, most of my compatriots hadn't a clue about this and could care less.

By the time 2001 rolled around, I had done an in depth study of the Middle East and Central Asia, as well.  Bob was still alive then, and we had animated discussions with a number of his retired colleagues and their wives, clear up until his death in 2006.  From the git go, we were absolutely screaming that we should not go into Iraq because it also was a tres partes divisa est phony nation, and it would be like attacking some hornet hives.  Kurds to the north, Sunni central and Shia south pretty much describes it.  Most of my personal sympathy went with the Kurds, albeit I will admit they are pretty bloodthirsty.  They are also desperate to have a country to raise their children in.  As for the Sunni and the Shia, in reading up on what their leadership foamed at the mouth about, I learned that Sunni children were taught that the Shia are the scum of the Earth!  Worse than Christian and Jew even, they deserve to DIE and should all be KILLED!  What really had us banging our heads against the walls, figuratively speaking, was that our own leadership did not appear to KNOW this!  We knew the Foreign Service officers did, but where were the rest of them coming from?  And the Foreign Service does not offer opinions in public or set or influence national policy.  Our blood pressures rose recklessly every time we heard the evening news.

Well, folks don't learn their lessons from our History books, albeit they should have a strong in depth schooling in that discipline.  Instead, our native born would be world leaders seem to hold a pattern of what WE are up as the ideal configuration for each and every other nation on this planet!  And in their immense hubris, they completely fail to consider that other peoples take pride in their languages, their traditions, and their religious beliefs.  They have feelings that our clueless orators never acknowledge, but instead plow up and mow down like so many talking tanks.  Ai yi yi!

I am so glad I am near to leaving this explosive situation.  I shudder at what I see coming and don't want to unfold. 


Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2362 on: January 07, 2016, 08:58:05 AM »
The Shia and Sunni seem to be deadly enemies.. Our Schisms are different in many ways. I took a  number of courses in the making of the bible and realized how many divides there were at the beginning of christianity.. But now they are mostly just something you read about.. Africa is full of artificial nations.. Sad but true and now committed to borders that are not real.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2363 on: January 07, 2016, 09:39:24 AM »
Generally speaking, most of us do not own the mind set of Death to the unbeliever, and so forth.  But yet again, look at the history.  Burned at the stake for being Catholic or Protestant.  The St. Bartholomew's Massacre.  Many other horrors.  Whole churches have been burned down with the congregation inside.  The centuries of killings in Northern Ireland.  I can remember when Germany, pre-Nazi, was pretty much divided into Catholic and Lutheran.

Some years ago, I heard a TV preaching by Jimmy Swaggart.  He was taking long strides up and down the stage with his head turned to the audience and his Bible held high in one hand, and (this was before she died) he asked the audience:  "Do you think for one minute that Mother Teresa is going to Heaven?  No!  Not unless she is Born Again and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as her Savior!"  I about fell off my chair in disbelief!

But bottom line, no, it would seem we have no Christian militia bound and dedicated to killing Christians of other dogma.  Or non-Christians, for that matter.  But we have thousands of armed militias in this country alone now;  so who knows what will come out of them.

Another thing there are thousands of, literally:  churches that have had strong disagreements over prayer books, conducting services, or hiring pastors.  I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a divided congregation splitting and become two.  I have even read, over and over again, of the legal disputes that follow over the ownership of the original church buildings and real estate.  No, we are not all that peaceful and "Christian" anywhere you go, as we would like to believe we are.  The god gene in us brings forth horrendously strong emotions that remind me of nothing so much as someone having a stomach flu that keeps them in the bathroom spewing up THAT kind of venom!


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2364 on: January 07, 2016, 12:23:30 PM »
Last year I met collage students who were studying international affairs and world peace at NC in Chapel Hill - some were specializing in various areas of the middle east and had spent at least one if not two semesters living there with host families - I learned of several books to read from them and at the same time my own curiosity had me reading - the layer that is not explored on the best of our news but alluded to when they say tribal leaders is there is another more forceful layer -

The middle east is a tribal society - there is no one man for one vote - you vote by tribes and your religion is the version of the tribe - some are large tribes with several hundred thousand and some are smaller with a only a few thousand. The biggest issue is attempting to stay tribal pure - that was the start of secluding women and having them hidden behind burka's - marriages are arranged within tribes and this is NOT just a social issue - it is economic for the entire family.

Most of the tribes have collective ownership in land, resources, etc. today includes buildings - the profit is divided among the tribal families - if you marry outside the tribe not only you but your entire family no longer receives the annual revenue from the tribal profits and you cannot use tribal parks etc. The police can actually tell if you are a tribal member - the headscarf is one give-away but then where we may not know the subtleties in physical appearance, they do. And so the couple that marry out of their tribe no longer can go to the parks or areas of the cemetery that are for the tribal pure.

Tribes have been warring with each other almost, what would appear to us as a pass time since, before the Shia Sunni split - a great part of the underbelly here is a power struggle between tribes that we see as if it were a conflict between Shia and Sunni.

Also the tribes have perfected playing chess with each other - they get others to fight their wars for them and always have - up until recently we were fighting in Iraq so that the Saudi's did not have to fight - the Iraq war left the oil fields in the gulf alone where the Saudi's had free reign - this part of the world few things are straight on.

Example it is considered a put down, disrespect, an insult if you do not haggle as we call it or negotiate everything you use - life is all about knowing your value to the vendor, partner, employer - knowing the real costs, margins, acceptable price based on acceptable margins of profit. This is part of every day life - picking up an apple for supper or a months supply of water or the cost of going to the dentist. It is also how they measure the affect of a fight against cost and who can they get to take on part of the cost - the tribal members we see in the streets are simply the pawns. Even those who do certain acts of violence are maybe knights but are often pawns.

The most confusing now is the many who have been educated in the west and are not part of the tribal leader's family but also know that if they go against the tribe and its leaders they are putting their entire family in jeopardy - they may be working and fighting for independence as in the Arab Spring but as soon as the actual fighting is over the Tribal leaders move in and all is lost again.

Learn more about the tribes and the news will begin to make another kind of sense that is the reality that I do not even hear our state department acknowledging - the whole thing in Syria is a few army captains who deserted and wanted to change Syria into a democratic nation so they sought the help of the US to go after Assad - we seem to be stuck in supporting these guys and act as if we will loose face by switching to support Assad - all the atrocities the state department brings up to justify keeping Assad as the enemy are all the acts that Assad used ONLY after he was attacked - they are actions of war - look at our own Civil War - were citizens protected - no - look at Sherman's march to the sea and yet, he is lionized as a great general - same thing with Assad.

Why oh why those who are in the state department do not by now understand tribal authority and how it is the real map of the middle east I am totally baffled - it is as if now that they know of the Sunni Shia split that is where they focus - it is far more about tribes that are either Sunni or Shia.  Look at the tribes in Saudi Arabia and in Afghanistan and Iran and even in Egypt although the Egyptians are not as tribal in their politics for the last 70 or so years. Morocco and Libya are tribal societies. One of the girls from the group of students spent a year with a family in Morocco living in a high rise during the week but going back to family every weekend, she explained how the day to day life and all the celebrations were tribal.

When Israel confiscates land for their building they are not taking just a local farmer's land they are taking tribal land which by now that assault is too much and is what fuels the Palestinians who are a tribal people.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2365 on: January 07, 2016, 12:51:29 PM »
Well...for sure, we are all "much more human than otherwise".  Which, I would say, is one reason  having a  faith that raises you to be better than you are is of inestimable importance.  Persecutions of other Christians...I would surmise...is more about good old fashioned power and greed, than about the god gene.  (I actually heard a ninth grade biology teacher go on a rant about Bush not opening more lines of fetal stem cells for research say that we know what gene produces alcoholism ... homosexuality...and have even identified the 'faith' gene, which should be eliminated to do away with all wars...yipes!). 

I could see Swaggart saying that about Mother Theresa: protestants believe in the five solas - faith alone being one.  Not to negate any of the good she did, but simply to say that good works alone don't assure one of heaven (since good works are done for many reasons), but need to proceed from a love and commitment to Christ alone - to the glory of God.  And people can disagree - even strongly disagree (even as Luther did with his friend Erasmus) - and still act in love and respect with one another (though if you read the letters between the two mentioned, and judged them from modern standards, you might not realize they were friends).  In the end, since God judges the heart, and He alone knows what each of us believe and do, as well as why, it's best to leave Him to His place as the perfect judge; we're only called to be 'fruit inspectors'.

I also know several churches that have split and it is sad indeed; many are hurt.  Still, though it should never be over the non-essentials of the faith, there is a time to call people back to what they say they believe - to the tenets of the faith.  And, again...how many occur from pride and power, not their Christian faith?  God has used even these missteps, even as they dishonor Him, to the good of individuals who continued to be faithful even while going through this.  In our faith, no pain (which we are all subject to in our fallen world) is wasted.  Indeed, as we each consider the pain we've caused, whether on purpose or not, it ought to humble us and help us endure the injustice/harm caused to us by another.  I read a definition of forgiveness I really like:  "forgiveness is giving up my right to hold another responsible for the harm they have done to me".  It would do us all well to continue to develop a forgiving spirit, even while protecting ourselves and others from those who are bent on doing them harm.

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2366 on: January 07, 2016, 12:55:27 PM »
That is very interesting, BarbStAubrey!  I must have been typing when you posted.  Good observations here.  Perhaps our State Department does understand and simply has some other goal in mind?

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2367 on: January 08, 2016, 08:34:53 AM »
OK,, I agree Barbara, but my belief stops for me, when they come to the U.S. and want to become citizens. We have a rule of law and many muslims bring too much baggage with them. Most of our immigrants are here to become citizens and mostly understand that there are certain basics in the U.S.  You can be a tribe, but stay awaya from the U.S.  In Israel, I am sorry, but I believe that the jews were there before the muslims.. Muslims were there after when they were a power. Now they want to go back.. So I never feel sorry for Palestinians.. Sorry.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2368 on: January 08, 2016, 02:07:14 PM »
Steph here in the US there is no economic benefit to continuing the power structure and traditions of Tribal Law.

Those who are here are middle income educated folks - the news picks up stories that are against the grain regardless your background - for instance they do not write an article about a law abiding middle class Black family, where the adults are employed in professional jobs, whose children get good grades, and the family attends church on Sunday. The media writes about the black family where someone is troubled or breaking the law or organizing other Blacks for a cause, the children they write about are disruptive and are not on their way as a family to church.

Well that is the same with folks from Mexico, Guatemala, Syria, Nigeria, Iraq, Honduras, Afghanistan - not so much bad press shown towards those from China or Indonesia, more just a cold shoulder - These are all areas of the world that the US is experiencing a large influx of refuges and migrants.

Most were professionals in the country the fled and they are vetted before they can get on a plane. Once here they are acclimated by a group like Caritas or another church group - they have left their home and everything they knew, from how to shop and what to eat, to what to wear much less, where to pray and how the children learn. They have also left bombed out homes and the bone chilling fear that goes with the slaughter by either gangs or an organized army.

Where as, those who traveled on the tops of trains and walked more than a thousand miles over Mountains and rivers into the US who, are not vetted however, they are not just escaping poverty but, many are fleeing for their life as street gangs, drug cartels gangs and government paid groups are killing mostly fathers and young men.   

I think this is worth watching with both Reagan and Bush Sr.
- https://www.facebook.com/chroncom/videos/10154528827472814/?theater
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2369 on: January 08, 2016, 02:58:05 PM »
Don't mean to change the subject, but I'm preparing to present a series on Women's History at the library in March and found this interesting article about who's writing books and who the books are about. I don't even need to tell you, this is an old and everlasting story and why we have to have an emphasis on Women's History month, just to get heard and remembered.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/01/popular_history_why_are_so_many_history_books_about_men_by_men.html


mabel1015j

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2370 on: January 08, 2016, 03:18:08 PM »
I will provide a bibliography for each of the sessions I will be presenting, if you would like I can tell you each week what is on that bibliography. They are all non-fiction books, of course and most of them are female authors.

Maybe we should spend a year talking about and/or reading female non-fiction. Of course a lot of the fiction books we talk about here are by female authors, so we are doing our part there in supporting them.

Jean

Dana

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2371 on: January 08, 2016, 07:50:17 PM »
If we (talking about the Brits here) hadn't given Palestine away to the Jews, the world would not be suffering this Muslim backlash now.

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2372 on: January 08, 2016, 11:19:18 PM »
I, for one, don't hold the British responsible.  Actually, under British rule Muslim, Jew and Christian lived together in peace.  But with the Jewish refuges fleeing Europe to Palestine the British were getting attacked by both sides, Palestinian and Jew.  Pulling out and handing the whole thing over to the UN probably seemed like the sensible thing to do.  I think if the UN had followed through on the British recommendation for a two-state solution - giving the Palestinians help with developing skills in self-government and establishing necessary institutions and public facilities/utilities - there might have been a better out-come. 

I surely don't blame the Jews for wanting to go 'home'.  Refugees were turned away from every country - even ours.  Winter was coming with no place for shelter, food.  Palestine looked like the only place they had a chance? 

Several years ago we went on a two-week study-tour of Israel with a guide licensed by the Vatican (he's not Catholic, but he was allowed to take people to places Jewish guides could not go) who had a doctorate degree in Biblical Geography (we even learned how Moses caused water to come from a rock when he struck it).  Our guide lived in Israel for 15 years until he returned to Texas and just traveled over for the tours. In discussing the difficulties in the country, Dr. M. said that when he first came to Israel after a week he was ready to write a book about the conflict; after a month he thought he could write an article; after a year he considered writing an essay; by the time he was with us he had decided he didn't have anything to say.  He could see both sides.  He couldn't see a solution.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2373 on: January 09, 2016, 08:30:54 AM »
Yes, a two state solution was the answer, but the Arabs were not about to let that happen.
I do agree up to a point on immigration of middle class people to the U.S., but I also live in a part of the U. S . where Disney in all its glory makes a huge amount of immigrants think that they just need to get here and the world will be their oyster. I had neighbors down in Kissimmee,, He had at least two wives with him, they were the ones who worked in a convenience store that he owned. He once opened his garage door and it was filled with cots.. all rented to workers.. He was arrogant.. and pushy and I really had to change my entire walk route in the mornings because he considered himself irrisistable.. ugh.. Several of my employees at that point were young.. Listening to them, I realized that it was just fine if the boys of an arab family dated Americans, but not the females..All in all, there are a lot of people here that should not be.. If your home country has gangs. try to change your country.. South and Central America has many problems. but until you change their political stance, nothing will happen.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

rosemarykaye

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2374 on: January 09, 2016, 10:52:52 AM »
Last year I read what I thought to be an excellent book - fiction but based on fact - by J David Simons, called The Land Agent. It's about young settlers in an early kibbutz, and the titular land agent, who doesn't at first realise how many different factions are involved in the coming troubles. British, Russian, Jewish, Arabs (but the Arabs less so) are all implicated in the search for water and other precious resources. It's well written and I really enjoyed it. It's part of a series about Celia Kahn (a young Jewish woman from Glasgow) but you don't need to have read any of the others to read this one.  I've found the review I posted on Amazon in case anyone's interested:

'This book is at least two things: a wonderful, gripping story about a young man's flight from a life of hardship in Poland to one of some prosperity in Haifa, and a fascinating insight into 1920s Palestine and the struggle for land and water that is still at the root of today's conflicts.

J David Simons brings the history of the region to life through outstandingly well developed characters - there is no hint of the textbook about this novel, yet at the end I felt I understood so much more about the Middle East. From the hero, Lev, to his landlady Madame Blum - who hates Israel, his boss Sammy, with his high ideals and the diverse members of Kfar Ha-Emek, the rudimentary kibbutz with whom he finds himself entangled, every individual is drawn as just that - a person with his or her own idiosyncrasies. There is no black and white, right and wrong (at least in 1920) in this land of hope and harshness. And as events come to a frightening climax in Haifa, back in Glasgow - the home city of one of the kibbutznik - another attempt at social idealism founders as the temperance movement fails.

The Land Agent is part of J David Simons' trilogy Glasgow to Galilee, and I am looking forward to reading the first two books - but this one can still be read alone: it's exceptionally good.'

Rosemary

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2375 on: January 09, 2016, 02:13:48 PM »
That's the thing: it is complicated beyond belief, and human lives are affected.  You could read every fact, every detail, memorize the geography involved, and take tours of the areas, but you still could not see the whole picture unless you could do the impossible:  be born half a dozen or more times, and each time as a different race & culture, and remember how it was with each one.

I wish so very much that we would not elect politicians who are totally ignorant of the history involved here.  They proclaim such stupid, simplistic solutions, which only serve to enrage the peoples over there and make things worse rather than better.

Pity folks today are lining up so fiercely on one side or the other.  By that I mean Republican or Democrat.  We used to have cooperation, with our representatives honestly wanting to solve these kinds of problems.  What has happened to the theory that they are elected TO GET THINGS DONE?

One thing really frightens me, and it is so very illogical.  Instead of blaming the particular killers and, if there is a group behind them claiming to have had a part in it, them also, the public today wants to blame a whole group by race or religion.  That is just CALLING OUT for racial and religious wars.  And the public does not even seem to see this.  When a young person who is mentally ill, or a couple or more demented young men, shoot up a school or place of work, only they get blamed.  But let a Jew, black person, brown person, Oriental, Muslim, Arab, or what have you conduct a shooting, and voices are heard all over the land demanding death to ALL Jews, black persons, brown persons, Orientals, Muslims, Arabs, or whatever the group designation.  There simply must be some urging of the public to see how dangerous this is!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2376 on: January 09, 2016, 02:33:51 PM »
MaryPage it benefits the few to keep the masses in a state of fear and rage - if not, they will be the recipients - however they seem to have such control over the governing in cities that they were able to get city leaders to get the police to break up completely the Occupy movement. Plus a war means huge profits which we are only hearing now how private money has taken over the armed services leaving the service men with nothing but the most dangerous work. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2377 on: January 09, 2016, 08:52:02 PM »
Well, we did hear and see right on the TV news that our forces went into Afghanistan and Iraq without the armored protection required, and they wrote home and begged their families to send them the materials so they could fix their vehicles and bodies themselves.  I mean, the entire public had access to that information, and you would think they would have stormed the halls of congress, but it was just ho hum.  I don't get it.  Hundreds of billions of dollars for defense, and inadequate protection.  Something stinks right here, and not in Denmark!  They're telling us we have the Greatest army in the world?  REALLY?

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2378 on: January 10, 2016, 09:32:00 AM »
Terrifying to me.. A young muslim woman went to a Trump rally, stood in silent protest and Trump erupted, she was escorted out to horrible remarks and Trump... CALLED HER OUT OF CONTROL. Now who was and is out of control.. Trump is really starting to scare me. He b rings out the underlying fury in a certain type of people.. This is not good and I honestly thought that we were done with that sort of nonsense, but I guess people really do not learn from their mistakes.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2379 on: January 10, 2016, 10:44:23 AM »
Oh, I share your horror, Steph.  Absolutely.  My empathy for that young woman knows no bounds.  Cruel rapaciousness, that's Donald Trump.  Well, if that video clip gets played and played and replayed, his numbers should finally go down.  At least, one would hope.  The American people tend not live up to my standards these days.

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2380 on: January 10, 2016, 01:14:16 PM »
As of reading the Parade magazine section of today's newspaper, I am a huge Leonardo DiCaprio fan.  I have always considered him a greatly gifted actor, but have not carded at all for the type of films he makes, so therefore he has not been much on my mind at all.  Now I am cheering Big Time.

He says:  "Women have been the most persecuted people throughout all of recorded history, more than any race or religion."

Let's hear it for DiCaprio! 

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2381 on: January 11, 2016, 09:28:02 AM »
hmm, but this is also the man who only dates super models. so I am a bit wary.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2382 on: January 11, 2016, 02:28:38 PM »
Oh.  Well, I did not know that.  I don't know much about movie stars these days.  I am thrilled by his statement, however.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2383 on: January 12, 2016, 09:12:26 AM »
Statement was fine, but he bothers me in a lot of ways..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2384 on: January 12, 2016, 01:28:40 PM »
I watched (and read) the incident at the Trump rally involving the muslim woman.  So....no protesters were allowed in the auditorium - there was a designated area for protestors, as most people are doing now.  So she knew going in that she was violating the rules for attendance.  Why did she think she had the right to ignore the rules?  I see that she said that she thought most people had never met a muslim; I fail to see how she thought that protesting in defiance of rules would cause anyone to be sympathetic to her cause?

Female muslims, I think, have shown that they are as supportive of violence as men are in radical Islam.

And did we realize that a symbol of Islam is an eight-pointed star?

I agree with suspending immigration until we can find a better way to vet applicants.  We nearly completely stopped immigration from 1924 - the mid-'60's.  Prior to that the majority of immigrants came from Europe - where assimilation into American culture is much easier.  The 'peace' of Islam appears solely dependent on a world in submission to its tenets.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2385 on: January 13, 2016, 09:15:33 AM »
Standing silently is a known way of silent protest. It has been used for years . Quakers do this in many cities, once a week in protest of all of the wars.. I saw the video and he was way out of control.. and so were some of his followers. You dont scream and shake your so called hair around.. What a dreadful man and his followers worry me.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2386 on: January 13, 2016, 11:50:51 AM »
They ARE scary.  It is as though they are all infected with rabies. :)

FlaJean

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2387 on: January 13, 2016, 02:31:26 PM »
We lived in a Muslim country for several years from 1960-1963.  We ate with our Fatima's Muslim sister's family a delicious meal of stew cooked on a small hibachi and drank very sweet mint tea.  She saw I was interested and took me into her very small "bare bones" kitchen.  It was such an interesting visit.  She showed me their sugar that came in thin sheets and you just break off what you need.  According to protocol information, we learned we should conclude our visit when offered the third cup of tea.

Her sister and family lived in the Medina in an apartment.  The doors were curtains.  I felt really sorry for my Fatima as her husband had taken another wife and decided to divorce her and even took her little boy away from her.  She had no legal recourse.  The women were treated so badly and I don't believe it has gotten much better in the ensuing years.  We also visited with an American missionary family many times.  As far as I could learn, they never had any (at least public) converts because of such dire consequences from their Muslim families.  I just never got the impression that Islam is in anyway a kind religion.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2388 on: January 13, 2016, 04:23:14 PM »
The kindness that I understand is that they take in as an overnight guest anyone and everyone who travels through or asks - regardless their circumstance they provide a place to sleep, a cup of tea and a share of the family meal.

What I also understand is that is it the religion that is USED to perpetrate and maintain traditions from the 12th century - western centers for learning in the west out stripped them starting in 12 and 13th century so that like so many communities found in Appalachia after WWII, when roads were finally cut through so too the middle east faded into isolation as westerners no longer turned to the east after the East West Schism in 1054. We had the Holy Roman Empire with the Pope as its leader splitting the church and all it governed in half, with the Eastern Orthodox Church east of Constantinople, up till then the center of the unified church. After the East West Schism Rome became the center for the Holy Roman Church and Constantinople continued as the center for the Eastern Orthodox.

It wasn't till the 15th century that the Eastern Orthodox center Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Empire the Muslims had control over much of the land in the Ottoman Empire and had taken back control in Jerusalem. However, with all the Muslims controlled there was still not the commerce between the Muslim world and the West except in spices.

Until oil became a useful commodity with ways to extract it rather than it bubbling up and raft size hardened blocks of it were used for just that, rafts - there was no economic reason for the west to engage with the east. No commerce means no inter action between peoples and just as in Appalachia, when the whiskey tax made it non-profitable to turn corn and get it down those mountains to be transported on the rivers in the form of barrels of whiskey the people were forgotten and they continued to live, dress, worship and talk as if it were the 1790s.

Much of the culture of Muslims is about Tribal purity and the only way they were able to preserve Tribal Purity is to control women - traditions from the middle ages and before continued - even our own western standards of good will towards each other was crude and rough during the middle ages - as the Tribes loose their economic reason for being we will see the end of the importance of tribal purity therefore, freeing women except, for the most conservative who preserve the traditions of the middle ages.

It is only now with all the technology and money flowing into the middle east that there is a hope for modernity to enter their lifestyle - that is why they say it will take another generation before we see any differences and the areas that are cut off it will take even longer.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2389 on: January 14, 2016, 08:56:46 AM »
Whew,, I live in the socalled Appalachian area in the summers and you really are way out about those people in so many ways.. Running moonshine was a time honored activity in many families.. They are proud and joyful people. a little religious for my taste, but they are sincere in so many ways..
I have only known a few muslims in my life well enough to begin to understand them..I know from my studies that early christianity was rough and violent for a long time.. Many of the US original immigrants came here to escape ... Early Quakers in Rhode Island,, Catholics and quakers in the Delmarva peninsula.. Sephardic jews in Savannah.. They all assimilated well. The Palatine Germans settled an area in upstate NY.. We have had so many immigration patterns and they all managed to fit in.. 
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2390 on: January 14, 2016, 12:23:21 PM »
Steph I lived in Kentucky for 12 years when my children were elementary school age - involved in much work in Appalachia - taking High School Seniors into areas where we inoculated the children and taught History to the adults - we also brought some older students from Barea Collage who winterized the one room school houses - a few of these communities we visited were still dressed and lived as if the eighteenth century - some areas had TV and from the many movies they watched they thought all American Indians were dead - the communities that were near the coal mines were a different kind of poor than these communities living off the land.

Going to Morehead for supplies at times we took one or two of the younger children with us - one young boy spent an hour opening and closing a door never having seen a door with hinges - another time a young girl spent the whole time snapping the light switch, again, never having seen a light switch much less that much light inside. 

Going to one small community and my son was with us and he got car sick - stopped at a nearby house asking for water and was handed a pail and told about a mile down the road there was water - when we got there it was a pool of water covered in algae under a rock cropping. That was their only source of water - and yes, we learned from the professors at Barea Collage why and what happened and how the roads that started to be built after WWII opened the mountains to many communities that few knew existed.

I believe Steph you are in the Franklin area of North Carolina - which was not settled till the nineteenth century. My daughter teaches in Hendersonville and even there the land was was part of Cherokee Indian territory and settlers only came into the area after the Revolutionary war.

The early settlements were near a river used as a highway to transport goods and people - corn grown in the Appalachians could not be hauled out of the mountains and so as in all history going back to the Egyptians in order to preserve grain it was made into at first beer - later it was preserved and enjoyed as whiskey. I am not talking about moonshine which came about after the whiskey tax when there was no profit attempting to haul corn to the river - This loss of revenue from the sale of their corn in the form of whiskey kept many communities isolated. The many rivers that rose considerably in the spring also helped to keep people contained within an areas - isolation keeps the traditional ways of life alive and commerce is how early settlements through out the world were opened to different ideas and affect the growth on every level in civilization.

There is nothing detrimental being said about the folks who live in Appalachia now or in those days when their communities were first discovered or, about the crops they grow and the products they make from those crops - all that is being said is, because of a law taxing a product, the people had no outlet for their crops and so they had no reason to go to the river and the community became isolated just as there were isolated communities all over the middle east -

Another example of a people isolated - before Saddam actions after the Gulf War in the 1990s there was a huge community of March Arabs having lived in the marches of southern Iraq for thousands of years, descendants of the ancient Sumerians. Saddam drained much of the swamp and in order to survive the people had to change their entire culture and live as others in Iraq.   

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2391 on: January 15, 2016, 08:40:02 AM »
Actually the area around Franklin was settled early, but in small villages.. centered around the grist mills in the area. It is very vertical in that area. The Cherokee were there first and are still there in large numbers. Some of the smaller villages have gotten proud of their heritage and are having wonderful weekends in the summer where they bring in the older people and show off crafts of all types. One of the talks I attended this summer was on the Plott Hound ( a special hound breed, now recognized by the AKC.. A Mr. Plott came with some of the dogs and explained how an ancestor came from Germany with several Hounds and since they lived in a remote area, how they had bred the dogs and imported more. Fascinating. In this community, the small schoolhouse has been turned into a community center. They teach all sorts of crafts, have a wonderful farmers market on Tuesdays and generally revive the area.
I guess my upset was that these are proud proud people and if they feel in any way, that you are looking down on them, they withdraw.. It is still poor in the Franklin area, although Hendersonville is quite a different story. Lots of money and a gorgeous down town.. Apple Orchards make their money.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2392 on: January 15, 2016, 08:41:03 AM »
oops.  Have been to Kentucky quite a bit when we were in the RV.. I love Berea and the college and Pleasant Hill the old Shaker community. Kentucky is a beautiful state indeed.
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2393 on: January 15, 2016, 12:58:50 PM »
Yes, I agree Steph - the people of Appalachia are very proud, more so the pride shows among those who for generations lived off the land where as, at least in Kentucky, in the coal mining communities the people were beat down but did stick together. I lived in Kentucky when the weekend line of vehicles were bumper to bumper as far as the eye could see of folks coming back from Detroit for a weekend home which was usually only a day and one night - some would risk and stay leaving so late on Sunday night it was actually Monday. For those making the trip every weekend it was usually just Dad or Mom and Dad, who worked in Detroit leaving the kids with Grandma.

The largest number of those living in Appalachia were of what is called Scot Irish heritage - actually Irish but those who  emigrated in the seventeenth century were distinguished from the Irish that came mid nineteenth century by calling themselves Scot Irish - they were from the rural areas of Ireland and most were as a result of those from Scotland who did escape to Ireland after they finally lost their independence to England early to mid sixteenth century. All to say the aspect of pride is part of the Scot Irish character.

It was a part of our national character when I was a child - no matter how low financially you just never took from the government or from charities - families and neighbors helped out each other - if you didn't have, you didn't use - sure the Government created jobs that were grabbed but that gave a man dignity - those who did take hand outs were looked down upon.

Appalachia took a beating by the press when folks like the Kennedy's opened up the area to a national discussion on poverty. According to our middle class standards yes, the area showed poverty but a lot of it was simply the result of living off the land and that pride of survival from the land was completely missed by most photo journalists. Those living there felt embarrassed and used by the choice of photos published and the news articles.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2394 on: January 16, 2016, 08:34:31 AM »
The scot-irish is interesting since Franklin considers themselves entirely Scot... Big parades and a weekend of festivities, the local Presbyterian church does the kirking ceremony and a special dinner.. There is a tartan museum there which is fascinating as you see what the tartans and kilts started out as.
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MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2395 on: January 20, 2016, 12:30:24 PM »
Hi.  I had spinal surgery last Friday and only today felt up to coming in here.  I am from the Shenandoah Valley, and we often drove up into the mountains of Virginia & West (by God) Virginia.  So beautiful.  I have known a lot of the folk you write about.  German, Scot and Irish mostly.  Hard working and proud, yes.  Good people.  Most people are good,  but yes, since Religion and Politics have with some all across this nation become one, it seems a bit weird to me these days.  We were so very careful not to do that when I was coming up and learning how to behave socially.  I fear deeply this movement is a mistake, but these days I am forced to doing all of my passing judgment from my small apartment.  I will never go "down home" again.  In my heart, I yearn for those mountains.

Steph

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2396 on: January 21, 2016, 10:30:32 AM »
OhMaryPage.. do get well. we all miss you so much when we dont hear.. I love the Virginia mountains.. So very beautiful.
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2397 on: January 21, 2016, 12:15:24 PM »
MaryPage thinking about you - hope you are at least more comfortable after surgery -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mogamom

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2398 on: January 21, 2016, 05:17:30 PM »
Do hope you are felling better after surgery, MaryPage!  My brother-in-law had spinal surgery a couple of years ago and has had great relief - here's hoping relief is coming to you as well!!

MaryPage

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Re: Women's Issues
« Reply #2399 on: January 25, 2016, 05:15:31 PM »
Oh, thank you.  I love to hear of people for whom it worked.  I'm yet to find out for sure, as I'm still fatigued, sore, achy and so on.