Women's Issues

[BarbStAubrey]

Can anyone explain to me what this bathroom thing is all about - not sure I understand - it sounds like if a girl can go sexually go either as a boy or a girl and she dresses as a boy she should use the boy's bathroom and the same for a boy if he dresses as a girl he can use a girl's bathroom - but if they have switched their sex then their anatomy has been either augmented or surgically removed so that they appear no longer what they were - and if that is the issue than I see no issue - born a boy but augmentation and surgery you look like and act like a girl and if born as a girl and your anatomy was changed to match your sexual identity than you no longer look like a girl but look like a boy and so you go to the boys bathroom just as the boy who surgically changed himself to a girl than he would no longer be a boy and would use the girls bathroom.

So I am confused - probably because if someone is attracted to both boys and girls that is a sexual orientation but not a anatomy issue and so if you are a boy that is interested in other boys than you go with the boys - just because your sexual interest is in other boys that still does not change you into a girl - if that were the case then that is assuming that boys can only be interested in girls and likewise, a girl sexually interested in another girls you go with the girls - your sexual interests are in the bedroom not in public bathrooms or school bathrooms so I am as confused as ever... what is going on...

[MaryPage]

There was a long article about it in this morning's THE CAPITAL, our local Annapolis newspaper.  Apparently Anne Arundel County schools have been following the same guidelines for some time now, as advised by doctors and psychologists and such like, and so will have no changes to make to comply.

Less than 1% of human beings are transgender, as compared to 11% being Gay, and these things do not seem to be related, albeit the genesis of them may be.  Some scientists believe now (and there is not all that much money for studies, but they are trying) that when the egg gets fertilized by either a sperm to make a girl or a sperm to make a boy, that that does not settle entirely, unfortunately, the matter of the gender of the baby to be.  There is some very early timing in there, and I cannot remember all the details both because I am not medical and because I have memory lapses, but I saw a documentary not long ago that showed early on the one cell becomes two and becomes four and so on, and somewhere in there the zygote is washed with hormones.  For how long and how much, I do not know.  But if something goes wrong, and here we mean wrong in the sense of not the normal timing or not the normal length of time for the hormone washing or not the normal strength of the hormones, I mean really, who KNOWS yet, well, the boy to be zygote may develop a female brain entirely or a half & half or who knows what.  They have been able to show absolutely that female and male brains ARE different!  I mean, that much is now a settled matter.  So it is a tragedy when a little girl is born with a penis or a little boy with a vagina.  And not only is it a physical & emotional horror for the growing child, but society has demeaned them and treated them horribly, even killing them.  We are growing up in our knowledge now, and no longer can tolerate this dreadful behavior.

[MaryPage]

So now our society is trying to make amends for the ghastly treatment of children born this way.  Most parents are alerting the school authorities so that they will be on the lookout to protect these children from bullying and other types of mistreatment.

Now you have a small child, say a 4 or 6 year old, who has declared herself a boy and convinced her, and from now on I am going to say his, parents and doctors and psychologists that he is right about this.  So he wears boy clothes and has a boy haircut and does everything boys do.  And for years, in most places, he has been using the boy bathrooms and using a stall.  No problem.  But now some religious bigots want this to cease and the child to use the bathroom of the sex he was declared at birth.  So suddenly we are to have a whole bevy of little girls using the bathroom see a little boy named Pete walk into THEIR bathroom because the law says he must!!!!  I don't think so.  Or a little six year old girl who was born with a penis but has been wearing curls and dresses and jewelry and playing with dolls and other little girls walk into a boy's room?  Can you IMAGINE the uproar? 

I do not understand why folks think these children want to do sexual things to other children.  Nothing could be further from the truth, and this is NOT about sex;  it is about who they are.  Who they really are.  I have 26 great grandchildren, and I do not personally believe that a single one of them is in any danger from any type of harassment from transgender children.  On the contrary, it is the transgenders who are in danger from the ignorant who would do THEM harm!

Oh, and as far as God is concerned, I know My God would not have made less than 1% of all humans transgenders (and always the same percentage!) and 11% of all humans, regardless of country, color, culture or religion, Gay if She did not want it to be that way.  And I believe God loves us ALL, but has a very special love for those born with differences that will handicap their coping with the behavior of others towards them.

[BarbStAubrey]

MaryPage thanks - still not sure I understand - I guess I need to look into this and learn what these kids have going on for themselves that makes them different - I did not know that girl's and boy's minds were different - I thought that was an old joke to put down women and so the jokes were right - sheesh.

[MaryPage]

The main thing to understand is that these children are in school AS THE SEX THEY FEEL THEY ARE, and not as the sex they were put down as on their birth certificates.  So they have been accepted by their classmates and the teachers as a boy, when their BC says they are Baby Girl Jones.  They have a male name and wear male clothes and have been using the boys restroom.  Now along comes a North Carolina law that says no, they must use the GIRLS room!  So what happens Now when that assumed boy walks into the Girls Room?

You talk about Trouble!

Or vice versa, a little girl who was Baby Boy Jones on her BC now has to use the Boys Room?

What the new law is doing is OUTING these children!

[MaryPage]

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, a bestselling book claims. Science does confirm, though, that male and female brains are wired differently — but what that means is the focus of a great deal of research. One recent study found that structurally, it's rare to have a brain with all "male" or "female" traits.Mar 3, 2016

This is the sort of thing you will find if you read all of the articles on the web.  What they have found through very thorough testing is NOT a difference in ability or intelligence, but we are wired to think DIFFERENTLY, which, when you get down to it, we have always known.  They have tested and tested and tested.  Having those scans with the parts of the brain lighting up where the question or plot or picture or whatever, also shows that males & females use different PARTS of the brain for the same problem, be it emotional or analytical or you name it.  Fascinating stuff.  Bottom line, we have to stop treating human beings who exit the womb different from others sexually like freaks "from the devil" and start recognizing that nature does this in a real pattern of numbers and it is ghastly to be born one of the unlucky labeled of Satan.  Just as unlucky as being born with cystic fibrosis or cerebral palsy or a hundred other things that show up on a regular basis.

[MaryPage]

Fear is exhibited in anger.  Folk who do not understand the underlying truths of transgender believe it to be a dangerous aberration and that their kiddies are not safe around the tiny number of transgenders out there.  They show their Fear in the extreme anger they turn on the unfortunate transgendered.  The truth is, we should not be passing legislation we mistakenly think will save our children from some imagined evil in this case, but rather passing legislation to keep transgenders from bullying, harassment and even death at the hands of our children and ourselves.

[bellamarie]

 http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/

The NO sex bathroom, locker room and shower is to be politically correct to accommodate the less than 1% transgenders.  Any person no matter how they are dressed, no matter what their anatomy is, now is allowed to go into any public bathroom, they just say they identify with that sex.  Not all states are going to abide by this because there is no constitutional law that gives this president or DOJ the authority to force this as law.

http://ltgov.nc.gov/content/lt-governor-dan-forest-responds-presidents-bathroom-policy-directive

I don't see an LGBT as a freak from the devil, or born of Satan.  I do believe as in evolution vs God's creation we will differ on opinions as to if it is a science/nature or not, because we can quote from many medical, science, and theological opinions documented.       

I think this bathroom issue is going to put innocent children at risk and not meaning by the transgenders, but the perverts who will take advantage of the easy access to expose themselves or assault victims. 
 http://abc7chicago.com/1336656/

Parents can not always accompany their child/teen into restrooms especially in schools, locker rooms, fitness centers, gymnasiums or showers.  I don't understand why they are taking away the privacy of gay, lesbian and heterosexuals when it would be simple to have a male bathroom, a female bathroom and then a "unisex" for anyone who feels comfortable using a no specified gender bathroom.   I fear this is only going to cause more hatred and violence due to people feeling their privacy and rights are being violated to accommodate the less than 1%.

MaryPage, 

"The truth is, we should not be passing legislation we mistakenly think will save our children from some imagined evil in this case, but rather passing legislation to keep transgenders from bullying, harassment and even death at the hands of our children and ourselves.

I ask, where is the legislation to protect the unborn child, the most innocent of all who are not able to protect themselves at the hands of those who decide to legislate it is okay to kill them?   
 

[MaryPage]

This is the thing.  Transgenders ARE using the bathroom assigned the sex they feel they are, and NOT the bathroom assigned them by their birth certificates.  This has been going on for a very long time, with no incidents reported.

Now, all of a sudden, North Carolina (and some others) want to make a big deal of it and say they cannot do this!  So I ask again:  what is going to happen when a girl walks into a boys room because the law now says she has to because her birth certificate says she is a boy?  She has been known as a girl at her school all of her years?  Who do you see as in danger in this situation?  Do you think that bathroom full of boys is going to just let her come in and use a stall and wash her hands and leave?  Do you really see no danger to her?

Same thing with a boy who has always been known as a boy.  With the new North Carolina law, he will have to start using the Girls room!

[bellamarie]

There is an easy solution.....One bathroom for males, one for females, and one for unisex.  I am not arguing anything about transgenders.  I am stating a fact that others privacy and safety is being put in jeopardy.  I hear what you are saying, but NO law should be passed for this.  Just make a "unisex" bathroom, locker room and showers, for those who want to identify in any sex they so choose.

You need to understand that this is serious because not all transgenders have or want to have a genital operation.  So NO I do not want my daughter or son to have to share a locker room or shower with a transgender who's genital part is not anatomically the same as theirs. As a teen in gym class I still remember the uncomfortable feeling of sharing open showers with my female classmates.  I would be horrified to be standing next to a transgender with male parts. This is NOT just about a public restroom.   

I am NOT referring to any transgenders as perverts.  I am speaking of perverts, child molestors, pediphiles, child trafficers, and exhibitionists that will take advantage of the easy access to their prey.  Government has become worse than a helicopter parent.  This president is overreaching to accommodate the less than 1% of transgenders, yet is so ready and willing to support Planned Parenthood who is butchering unborn babies.  I am so dizzy with his nonsense my head is spinning.  He was suppose to bring us closer together but instead has made this country more divided than ever.
 
We should respect the right and life of all, including the innocent unborn baby who can not defend him/herself. We should respect the privacy of our preteens/teens and college students in restrooms, locker rooms and showers. They can and will feel violated being forced to share their private space with someone who has opposite sex parts.  To me to prevent and protect the less than 1% by passing a law for this is only infringing on the 99% others.   One "unisex" restroom, locker room and shower will solve this. 

I don't want anyone bullied, or life threatened including the unborn baby.  We need to stop making laws that do just that.  Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for ALL.

[MaryPage]

Unfortunately, that solution is not so hot for our public school system, which lacks enough money to make expensive physical changes.

I am not trying to make an argument to change anyone's mind, I am just trying to get all the facts on the table.  And the facts are that for all of my lifetime transgender children and grownups have been using the public bathroom of the gender they are living as.  Elementary school children do not take showers at school.  Transgender High School students usually get excused from P.E., do not play on team sports, or simply find an easy way to get out of the shower problem.  Chances are there were no transgenders in our schools, they are so few.  But in a huge system, chances are there were, and we never knew it.  This administration is not changing any law, nor is it changing the status quo.  North Carolina is the one who is making a NEW LAW which considerably changes the way things have been and puts a huge problem on the public's plate which did not previously exist because it has been handled very discretely, case by case.

Remember, we are not talking vast numbers of transgenders.  They are a tiny minority.  Very tiny.

[bellamarie]

I am not making an argument to change minds as well, I too am supplying facts to inform. I am pointing out this has become a major issue that it need not be.  This president in his words and actions has created a division, hostility, fear, and intrusion into people that was not necessary by trying to make and enforce a law that is unconstitutional.  For someone who was suppose to be a constitutional lawyer, he sure seems to be stepping all over our constitutional rights.  I did not say he is "changing" a law, he is trying to "make" a law which is not his position to do.  He does not have the power or jurisdiction to "make" laws of his liking.

I am very aware of the less than 1% being a very tiny minority, so I ask again, why pass a law that will effect the more than 99% others, and place their safety and privacy at risk?

I was not speaking of elementary students, as you notice I said preteen/teen and college students who do use locker rooms, showers and open bath areas.  They will feel violated.  I have no doubt transgenders have been already using public restrooms without anyone realizing it, so why does this president feel the need to enact a law forcing restrooms, locker rooms and showers be ALL gender in schools, health facilities, sports rooms etc.?  He is over reaching and causing chaos where it does not need to be.

If you read the article you will see North Carolina is NOT as you say trying to make a new law.  They are staying with the current one.

"The President needs a reminder that the United States Constitution grants education decision authority to the states and localities not to the President of the United States.  Our current state policy protects our children by maintaining bathrooms and restrooms consistent with the biological sex of the child and already gives schools, should special circumstances arise, the freedom to grant private single stall - single shower bathroom accommodations to individuals who might not otherwise be comfortable using the bathroom of their biological sex or a bathroom shared with other people." 

I'm pretty sure schools could manage to accommodate a unisex bathroom, locker room and shower for the very very few we are talking about.  Maybe transgenders would feel more comfortable in participating in sports and other activities, although I was not aware as you pointed out, they are opting out?  Most transgenders school age and college age most likely have not gone through with a surgery to change their genital part, which I would assume they are still using the facilities of the sex they are born to, rather identify with at this age.

The sad thing is that the president has not thought this out at all.  He did not foresee the ramifications of the preteens/teen and college students.  He was trying to accommodate adult transgenders in public restrooms and opened up Pandora's box, because it then became about schools/colleges bathrooms, locker rooms and showers, etc.       

[BarbStAubrey]

On this I agree with Bellamarie - seems to me it is not the transgender that is the concern - it is the straight kid who is now about 14 till he gets a handle on his own sexuality and has invaded the girls locker room or bathroom with no way to tell if they are transgender or not.

So if being transgender is a medical or natural or however it is best described than outing or not, is no different than the gay kids that are now outed but not actually 'outed' because all the world knows about and accepts that there are gay kids - If outing the transgender kid is a bullying issue and so they prefer secrecy - Yes, there are bullies and they use any difference to push their control - and kids have been beat up for many issues which reminds folks of the beatings taken because of being gay and for the color of the skin however the only thing I see in common is that bullies beat up kids who are different.

Where little is known about the kid who is transgender, researching on the internet does not help. I found huge differences in the explanations - some say those who are in the process of changing surgically their gender are called Transgender - others go into great detail between the transgender and the transvestite and few give a medical and biological explanation. It still does not sound like the issue is with the transgender kid but rather to keep straight folks from taking advantage of the law to invade a girls locker room or bathroom -

As to girls entering a man's locker room or bathroom that happens all the time with transvestites and journalists going after a story. It is just the feeling of safety that this removes for girls since there is no way to ID a transgender kid from a pervert.

[MaryPage]

http://www.eagletribune.com/opinion/ann-mcfeatters-north-carolina-s-bathroom-bill-a-disgrace/article_576e771e-df65-531e-b051-89502a1c38e6.html

[mogamom]

I think the powers-that-be have determined that having a unisex bathroom along with male and female bathrooms is also discriminatory.  I don't understand the stance Target has taken since they have a large, nicely kept, private Family bathroom that seems could be used to accommodate transgenders.

But I personally don't agree with the 'science' being used to determine the legitimacy of the LGBT groups' claims.  Science here, I believe, is being twisted to suit the culture:

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

[bellamarie]

With all due respect Maryjane, this article you provided is written by a progressive liberal and it is her "personal" opinion attacking North Carolina, which has little facts but much fiction. She uses Lynch's words for the weight of her own opinion when in fact it shows how "they" are not respecting the privacy and rights of the 99% who are not in the transgender less than 1%

The physically beautiful state of North Carolina, now personified by the egregiously bigoted state legislature and its governor, Pat McCrory, is being ridiculed around the world and for very good reason. What they are doing is evil.

She has NO basis in making this statement, and calling them bigoted and evil shows her bias.

Lynch noted correctly that change is discomforting and that people fear what they do not know or understand.

But that does not give them the right to impose pain and suffering, humiliation and denial of civil rights and lack of respect on others.

It is distressing that with all our problems, causing misery and inciting anger and hatred are still front and center in U.S. politics.

While she says, we fear what we do not know and understand, she is assuming we don't know our own feelings.  We know our privacy and our children's privacy will be violated if the schools and colleges are "mandated" to allow transgenders who have not had surgery to change their anatomy be in the same shower.  Try to imagine the pain, suffering, humiliation and denial of civil rights and lack of respect for those female preteens/teens and college students who are forced to shower with someone with male genitals next to them.  And the same for boys of these ages showering with female genitals next to them. I'm pretty sure they know and understand how they will feel, and the fear is real to them.

As Lynch pledged to the transgender community: "We see you. We stand with you. And we will do everything we can to protect you going forward. History is on your side. ... It may not be easy. We will get there together."

She speaks of inciting hate and anger, but this is indeed doing just that.  Like I said before..... this president has NOT thought this through.  He made a knee jerk "mandate" to be politically correct without knowing what it would involve.  This is not JUST about a transgender being allowed to use a public bathroom of which sex they identify with.  This has extended to locker rooms and showers of schools and colleges where minor children are going to be exposed and their privacy violated.

The powers that be who are determining a unisex bathroom is discriminatory, are in fact discriminating against the 99% who are not of the 1%.  I do not agree with the science as well.  Professionals of psychiatry agree transgender is a mental disorder that should be treated, rather than taking a knife to change their anatomy.  Changing a part of your body does not deal with the mental state of the person's mind.  The percentages of suicide after a sex change goes up drastically.  We are doing a huge disservice to those who need mental help by not seeing this for what it is, rather than butchering their bodies. 

As a society, we need to have compassion for ALL people's feelings, including those who will be forced to shower next to someone with the opposite genital than theirs.  If this "mandate" stands and states allow it you will see more enrollments in private schools.  This president plans to refuse funds to schools that do not enact his "mandate." Punishing them by the power of his pen to yet once again trample the Constitution and Law.  He does NOT have the authority, power or jurisdiction to "make laws" of his liking.  He uses verbiage as in "mandate" to get around what he actually is doing and that is over reaching his position.  I personally feel this is a huge political distraction to help the democratic party for this election year.  He knew the firestorm this would cause.  He knew the divisiveness and the outrage this would incite, trying to distract Americans from what is really much larger issues to be dealt with such as the economy, terrorism, healthcare, and jobs.

A "unisex" or "family" bathroom, locker room and shower, is a simple answer to this, yet they prefer to make it more than what it is.  Why do "they"  the powers that be, assume this solution is discriminatory to the less than 1%, yet their solution is not discriminatory to the more than 99%? 

[bellamarie]

mogomom, Thank you for the article, it is the same as all the others I have been reading where psychiatrists are very concerned about how we are not seeing transgender for what it is, a mental disorder.

Just saw this article on my Facebook....  phew my head is really spinning!   

http://www.faithfamilyamerica.com/famous_lgbt_activist_reveals_the_scary_real_goal_of_the_bathroom_battle_and_it_s_not_bathrooms_it_s_way_worse

 

[mabel1015j]

Holy moly! What a tizzy some folks can get in when their vivid imaginations and paranoia meet! I'm intending that statement about people on both ends of the extremes.

Jean

[nlhome]

I agree, mabel.

[mogamom]

I couldn't disagree more.  It is no 'tizzy' anyone is having here.  In NY mental health workers have already been told that they cannot counsel anyone away from transgenderism (much as what happened years ago with homosexuality) even if that is the presenting problem.  How can the government interfere with trained professionals in such a blatant attempt to protect individuals from any reality checking and exploration of a presenting problem?

And what about not forcing someone's values on someone else?  Does that only extend to conservatives and Christians (although this would affect people of many faiths, including Muslims and Jews)?  Or someone whose values are not your own? 

These are not necessarily individuals in the process of gender realignment surgery (have you studied the process from a medical perspective? They have life-long medical conditions that require near constant monitoring and treatment) - they only have to say that they 'identify' with the opposite gender.  How long has it been since you all were in high school?  Students are much more overtly sexual in school today - at lockers, under the stage, even in locker rooms.  Some boys in a local school were charged for putting a hole in the girl's shower room wall so they could look in - even take pictures (and these things are more and more often showing up on the social media sites).  Now they can just say that today they identify as a female - tomorrow maybe as a male.  Why are we now so eager to jettison science?  Because it offers only an inconvenient truth?

We didn't know until a few years back that Gender Identity Disorder (though I hear that's going to be taken out of the next DSM) was listed in our Disabilities Act. In a small rural county in Western New York:  A couple of weeks before school started, parents of students who were going to take 9th grade science at a local high school were called in to be told that the male teacher had to live as a woman for a year before deciding on surgery.  Students were not allowed to transfer out.  Other area high schools refused to accept students from that school district (as per a county-wide superintendents' meeting a few weeks prior).  It was too late to register for, or get busing to, a private school (though a local Catholic high school waived their policies to accommodate some) and it was too late to apply for homeschooling for that year (though that policy was also modified some).

Under NY Disabilities Act an employer must make 'reasonable accommodations' for disabled individuals.  In this instance these would include:
1.  Hiring a specialist from Tenn. to explain the medical reasoning of the disorder.
2.  Requiring all employees (including bus monitors, lunch room workers, etc) to attend a three-day sensitivity training session, paid for by tax-payers.
3.  Students received instruction in how they were to address this individual as Mrs. ____ ( even though they knew his wife and children);  they were not allowed to make any disparaging statements or looks, including smiling.  If they did, they were threatened with counseling.  (one father asked how they expected a 9th grade student to keep from laughing when they saw a 300 pound gorilla in capris).
4.  No religious/moral/values objections would be entertained; only medical/physiological discussion was allowed.
5.  No students were allowed to drop/transfer out of his class, a class which was required for graduation.
6.  All faculty bathrooms were made unisex.

It was a nightmare!  And completely unnecessary.  It actually would have been cheaper to give him a year's paid sabbatical.  Teacher's left.  Others used the student's bathrooms.  Students were moved or dropped if they could find any way to do so (for instance, one family argued successfully that such a distraction would have an adverse effect on their ADHD child).  And you cannot tell me that this was in any way a true experience 'living as a woman' for this man.  What did it prove?  The following year both the superintendent and the teacher quit. 
 
In my mind this whole thing is a true case of "thinking themselves wise, they became fools".

[bellamarie]

Thank you mogamom.   I do not feel expressing our feelings even when we differ, don't have all the facts, or are not politically correct should be considered in a "tizzy,"  How else are we to learn and get informed and yes, try to understand and accept others if we are not allowed to express our feelings, opinions and have a respectful discussion without being considered over imaginative or paranoid? 

Transgenders are 0.3% of the population, the other 99.7% are asked to conform to the "mandate" so we don't discriminate for what renown psychiatrists have studied, dealt with transgender patients, and concluded, this is a mental disorder which needs to be treated as such.  Rather than provide mental health for the 0.3% this administration has decided we will ignore their health needs and enable them. The arrogance of those refusing to give credence to psychiatrists diagnosis because it does not fit in with their agenda is incredible. 

The danger is real, as mogamom pointed out, high school boys already have been finding ways to invade the privacy of locker rooms, and will use this as a means of easy access for their sexual pranks and pleasure.  Not to mention the perverts, phediphiles, molestors and child traffickers.  Until and unless you, or your child has been sexually violated, molested, raped or groomed you can not know or understand OUR fear is real!  Understand I AM NOT saying it is the transgenders who do or will commit these acts. I am saying to give unilateral easy access to the most private places we and our children are in public, schools and colleges, is making it easy for those who will commit these crimes. NO, I do not want my granddaughter or grandson who is in high school to have to stand in the shower next to a transgender with the opposite genitals than theirs.  Call me crazy, in a tizzy, imaginative and paranoid, but I have lived through close family and friends who have been violated, and I don't want to open the doors for easier access to the evil who will indeed take advantage of this "mandate."

I agree, it would have been easier for that teacher to take a one year sabbatical.  Imagine the confusion those students had to deal with emotionally, mentally and yes even sexually.  One person's mental condition was forced upon an entire school to deal with.  How is that not infringing on their civil rights? 

When did common sense, instincts to protect our children, and overlooking psychiatric diagnosis leave us?     

[Dana]

Presently we believe that transgender identity is no more a psychiatric problem than homosexuality is a psychiatric problem.  If some  psychiatrists think it is, they are out of date.  Psychiatrists used to say homosexuality was an illness and could be cured by aversion therapy.  Not so. Yet another example of the harm that misguided medical beliefs have done to people over the ages.
  By the way, I am a psychiatrist.
The psychiatric disorder nowadays is termed gender dysphoria and addresses the anxiety and/depression a person may experience when they feel they are of the opposite sex.  Treatment does not aim to "cure " the transgender identity but instead to help a person come to terms with it, because it cannot be changed.  Same thing used to be with homosexuals, less now as homosexuality has become more accepted.

[mogamom]

I was never taught, nor have I ever believed, that homosexuality was an 'illness', but a problem in psycho-sexual development.   And, yes, psychiatrists decided that homosexuality could not be cured, although Christian therapists have had some very positive results.  Is that how mental health is determined - by whether or not the condition can be 'cured'?  And I fail to see how helping these individuals come to terms with their gender identity includes their having access to the bathrooms and locker rooms of the other sex where they are creating those same feelings of anxiety and depression on others who are told they must just endure such an intrusion.

Psychiatrists have also determined, as I understand it, that pedophilia cannot be cured.  So should we expect that those individuals will be determined to be 'mentally healthy' also?  Just engaged in an alternative lifestyle?  Should we - in not wanting to offend anyone - give them access to our children?  Because there are many groups already pushing for such license, as I'm sure you well know.

Alcoholism and drug addiction are not 'cured' either, but we don't encourage those individuals to continue unhealthy, self-destructive behaviors (although drug addiction seems to be taking a turn now).  We still see the value of assigning such conditions as 'disorders' and in attempting to help individuals find healthier lifestyles.  Are we saying that sexual feelings/activity cannot be controlled?  If so, that is a whole other issue.  Such self-destructive behavior absolutely has consequences for all of us.

I would have no problem with counseling those individuals to have respect for the privacy and rights of others, which many (probably most) already do.  There are other, better, less invasive solutions to this problem.  Let's look for solutions that don't just transfer the harm that has been done onto some other individual/group, but actually deals with it.

[bellamarie]

Dana, with all due respect there are many renowned psychiatrists who have treated transgenders and studied the disorder who conclude transgender is a mental disorder, and have had a high success rate in treating them.  So when you use "we" it is not all psychiatrists as a whole.  As far as I am concerned if it is or isn't labeled a mental disorder it makes no difference to me where allowing access to bathrooms, locker rooms and showers are concerned.  I noticed you did not address how this could affect our preteens, teens and college students who would have to stand beside a transgender with opposite genitals in their shower.

I will concede to leave the medical mental condition up to trusted psychiatrists, and continue to voice my concern for the innocent children who will be traumatized by having to deal with this mandate.  As a psychiatrist, as you pointed out you are where are your professional opinions on the effects this would have on the young preteens, teens and college students?  I know none of my grandchildren in these age brackets want to have to deal with this in their school/college locker rooms and showers and they are pretty up to date and tolerant of all lifestyles, race, religion, and creed.

Mogamom, I agree with you there are better and less invasive solutions to this problem.  Why is there more concern for the 0.3% of transgenders, than the invasion of the privacy and rights for the 99.7% 

[MaryPage]

Maybe because it is the minority who get beaten up and killed by the majority? 

If it ain't broke, why fix it?  There has been no problem.  Suddenly North Carolina has decided to make an issue, take a stand, and create a problem where none has existed.

Do you know of any girl who has been forced to take a shower with another girl who has a penis?  Don't you think school authorities would bend over backwards to make sure that never happens?

Much Ado About Nothing!

A Tempest In A Teapot!

This new law is not for the purpose of saving the majority of students from anything at all.  It is for the purpose of making the lives of this tiny minority even more miserable than they already are.  It is totally tyrannical and despotic.

My 13 granddaughters are all grown up now.  The youngest will turn 30 on June 3rd, and she has 4 little ones.  None has ever encountered any problems of this type.  My 26th great grandchild was just born on April 22nd, while my first is 22 and about to complete architectural school.  None of these, thus far, has had or known of a problem, but all feel they would be capable of handling it.  We all fail to understand the energy and intensity being spent on this non-cause!

Remember the oh so sad song from South Pacific?  "We have to be taught, before it's too late, to hate all the people our relatives hate.  We have to be carefully taught."

[bellamarie]

MaryPage,

If it ain't broke, why fix it?  There has been no problem.  Suddenly North Carolina has decided to make an issue, take a stand, and create a problem where none has existed.

You seem to be ignoring that North Carolina is in fact staying with the current policies, and they are not the only state or people who are concerned about this president's mandate.  You seem to not understand it was not broken until this president enacted his mandate.

Thank God your children or grandchildren have been spared and never had to experience any such acts against them by pediphiles, molestors, trafickers, etc.  Do you think because you personally have not experienced it, it is unthinkable for those who have? I am not as fortunate to be able to say this about my family and friends.  What does it take to open the eyes of those who have not had to worry or be touched by such horrible invasive acts for them to understand the fears of those who have.  Allowing anyone who can say they identify as the opposite sex to enter bathrooms, locker rooms and showers is careless, unsafe and violates the privacy and civil rights of others. 

It wasn't broken and needed fixed until this president decided to over reach and enact this mandate. 

Carefully taught

you say??  WOW!  I was carefully taught, my children were carefully taught, my grandchildren were carefully taught and my friends were carefully taught, but it did not protect us from the evil that is out there waiting to prey on victims, and allowing them easier access to their prey is in fact careless and unthinkable.

I am not saying the transgenders are committing these acts, but enacting this mandate for the sole purpose of transgenders is putting so many at risk.  We are not going to come to any agreement on this topic.  You feel strongly about the 0.3% and I feel just as strongly about the 99.7%.  We must err on the safety of our innocent children, not on the "feelings or identity" of transgenders.

So if tomorrow a group decides they identify as dogs and want to go into any restroom and urinate and defecate on the floors do we then mandate this since they will be bullied, humiliated, and feel discriminated against?  Where do we end the insanity?    

Do you know of any girl who has been forced to take a shower with another girl who has a penis?  Don't you think school authorities would bend over backwards to make sure that never happens?

According to the president's mandate if the school does bend over backwards to make sure that it never happens they will be in violation of the mandate and lose government funding.  You can't have it both ways.  Now that this mandate is going to be forced upon the schools I am certain you will in fact hear of incidents happening.  The sad thing is, you and others seem to think if or until it does happen, we need to not get ourselves into a tizzy.  So we wait for a tragedy to happen to then do something to prevent it??  As my mother taught me...
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

You can NEVER undo the damage of someone being violated, molested, raped, groomed, exposed to, or stolen.  So forgive me if I would rather take measures to prevent it before it happens. 

Why aren't child psychiatrists speaking out about what effect this will have on preteens/teens and college students?   

[MaryPage]

I may, of course, be mistaken, but it has been my understanding of events that the President made no mandate.  Rather, it fell out like this:

In February, the City of Charlotte, North Carolina, passed an ordinance to protect the LGBT community by stating they may use whichever public bathroom they identify with.

The Governor of the State got terribly upset by THIS ordinance, and had a bill put up in the NC legislature and got it passed and signed it into law that they CANNOT use the bathroom they identify with, but have to use the one that is the same as what is on their birth certificates.

The Justice Department of the United States then told North Carolina that it was breaking the Civil Rights Law.

That is the way things went as my memory goes.  And these days, I must admit, my memory goes out the window a lot more than I care to admit.

[bellamarie]

The president is overreaching, does not have the power or jurisdiction to call for such a mandate, and it is a violation of privacy and civil rights of 99.7% of the others.   
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/obama-order-public-school/2016/05/12/id/728608/

"It will not have the force of law, but carries an implicit threat: Schools not abiding by the Obama administration’s interpretation of the law could face lawsuits or a loss of federal aid."

So this president is willing to sacrifice the betterment of education for the students in all schools who refuses to follow his mandate.  How is that not discriminating?  Punish innocent children by cutting off school funds, or force students to share the bathrooms, locker rooms and showers with transgenders.  Well, that sounds like an intelligent well thought out, productive plan.  Either way the students lose, while these politicians act like school kids fighting on the school yard.

There are other states who refuse to follow "his" mandate as well.   
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/doa-governors-refuse-to-implement-obamas-transgender-bathroom-policy

When did this country go from being a democracy to dictatorship? When this president decided the power of his pen and phone would trample the Constitution of the United States and bypass congress.

Our children need and deserve protection from this mandate.

Glad to see someone speaking out for the children's well being and safety:
http://illinoisfamily.org/uncategorized/pediatricians-call-it-what-it-is-child-abuse/ 

[mogamom]

All of us are affected by personal experience.  Wanting privacy is NOT showing hate to another group - or even intolerance or a lack of compassion for their personal difficulties.  I for one get tired of all the '-phobic' slurs that get thrown at people who disagree with some social issue.  Tolerance goes both ways.

A few years ago a group of LGBT young adults were in the news because they said they had gotten beaten outside a bar in a near-by city.  I could not believe that such behavior still existed today toward these people, and was quite incensed by it all, as many were.  That is, until they admitted that they had beaten each other in order to "raise awareness" of their victim status.

A couple of years later another group of LGBT youth reported that they had been beaten and thrown out of a bar.  This time no one jumped to their defense but waited to hear the results of the investigation.  Sure enough, they also admitted to beating each other to 'raise awareness'.  When the police asked them why they filed a false report they said:  We knew that that was what heterosexuals would like to do to us if they thought they could get away with it.

But heterosexuals did NOT do any such thing! 

So, I wonder how we move forward if everyone is only focused backward.

[BarbStAubrey]

Found this... Get the checkered coat - fashion???

[mabel1015j]

1. Aren't there stalls in men's restrooms also? No one has to ever watch anyone else go to the bathroom if every bathroom has stalls.

2. Perverts can, under any circumstances, go into any bathroom and probably have been doing that for decades and decades.

3. Trans people have been going to whatever bathroom they have been comfortable in for decades and none of us knew, or had a problem with that.

4. I think the issue of shower rooms in schools should be decided through thorough discussion with trans people, other students, gym teachers and admin people, coming up with an agreement from all that will meet the federal guidelines. Some adult should be paying attention in any locker/shower room and then handle the person misbehaving. No different than in a bullying situation.

We all as girls throughout our lives learned to deal with boys/men who were making us uncomfortable. Yes, we shouldn't have had to, but such is reality that there are jerks every where and every person has to learn to deal with them. Not that society shouldn't do all it can to prevent those jerks from having their opportunities, but we should be alert at all times that we are not stepping on minority rights if there is any other way to handle a situation that provides the most freedom for all.

Yes. I still believe some people are jumping too quickly before knowing what the guidelines are and liking the idea that "I can jump on the other side, politically, and make a fuss," without looking for a rational answer that satisfies most people touched by the situation.

Jean

[MaryPage]

How in the world do they propose to ascertain that this new North Carolina law be obeyed?  Are there going to be potty police in every public restroom;  one would assume a female security guard at the door of women's rooms and a male at men's rooms?  Who is going to pay for this, and are they going to ask to SEE our genitals, or just feel them through our clothing?  Most of all, can we afford this when we can't even afford more and better bathrooms?  And who will want these jobs?  Ugh!

[BarbStAubrey]

Next year it will be 50 years - hard to believe a women could not race in a marathon as recently as 50 years ago

[mabel1015j]

I agree MaryPage. It's unenforcable. Are we all supposed to carry our birth certificates with us? Good luck with that.

Yes, Barb, especially since women have run races over the centuries.

We're back from vacation, lovely though cold, week at the shore. A highlight was when a friend who has been a lifetime Republican said "I hope you're not going to vote for Trump." It was a joke since he knew we were lifetime Democrats - his wife was the first Dem council person elected in our town in decades. He is very concerned that Trump could be catastrophic for the country. I was glad to hear him say that, I've been wondering where the moderate Republicans have been and, of course, there are many of those in NJ.

Jean

[bellamarie]

Jean, I am a conservative Independent and am abhorred at the choices we have for president.  Neither one of them have stellar reputations or records to hold the seat of the highest office in the land.  Our country has surely lowered our standards and expectations.  I sadly say in the past decades there has been no one I could say has been competent and experienced enough to be president, I feel the oval office has become a place for ideology and self serving agendas, but then again, maybe it always has been and we just never were privy to the tactics and shenanigans until now.  I have no pride in the performances of the past few presidents, republican or democrat.  We have become a weak nation and a laughing stock around the world.  I feel the democratic party will sooner or later pull Hillary due to the emails, the Clinton foundation, and now the new allegations about Bill's behavior with abusing women. Biden will be the replacement.  I know he says he does not want the position, but I think they are all playing their parts and in the end she will be replaced just like they made her step down and let Obama have the nominee in 08'.  She would have for sure won that nomination and the presidency.  I was working on her campaign back then and learned a lot of back door happenings to force her out.  I will never be attached to any one party ever again. 

MaryPage,  As I pointed out it is NOT just North Carolina who refuses to follow this mandate.  I am so over discussing this topic.  It's as if we are hamsters on a wheel going round and round getting nowhere. 

The bottom line is that it is unconstitutional, it is ONLY a mandate that each state can and will decide for their state to refuse to follow.  It's very sad that a mental disorder is now going to affect the education, privacy and rights of innocent students.  We sure have sunk to a new level. 

[bellamarie]

The call for impeachment is as extreme as the president's mandate.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/21/republican-oklahoma-lawmakers-urge-obama-impeachment-over-bathroom-directive.html

[bellamarie]

I am about halfway through The Invention of Wings by Sue Monk Kidd, and am just astounded at how at such a young age Sarah Grimke and her little sister Nina (Angelina) were able to instinctively know that slavery is wrong.  This is a fiction story based on true life people, Sarah Moore Grimké who was an American abolitionist, writer, and member of the women's suffrage movement, and sister who was 13 years younger than her.  The sisters continued to live together, fighting for the rights of women, until Sarah's death in 1873.   

And most aren't aware that slavery in this country didn't officially end until Dec. 6, 1865, the day the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified. It didn't end on Jan. 1, 1863, when President Abraham Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation.

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/slavery-and-anti-slavery/essays/angelina-and-sarah-grimke-abolitionist-sisters

These were women before their times.

[mabel1015j]

Loved Invention of Wings. It was pretty accurate historically as well as a well-written fictional story. Glad you enjoyed it.

Jean

[mabel1015j]

I'm reading a very interesting ebook, The Hunting of Hillary by Joe Conason and Gene Lyon, both awarded journalists. You can get it for free from Conason's blog "national memo". I'm amazed that she is still standing and willing to take the arrows that are constantly hurled at her, even those repeated arrows that have already been debunked by congressional committees and objective journalists, altho, by their own admission, there don't seem to be many of those.

She has stood for decades in the midst of the onslaughts and no, I don't believe the cliche "where there's smoke there's fire," for it appears her opposition has frequently created its own smoke machine. I don't think she's perfect, who of us are, but IMO, she has a lot going for her. Why she would want to run for president and have the unscrupulous opposition have another big attack at her, I can't imagine. But it sure would be nice to have a woman president.

Jean

[MaryPage]

I write as a supporter of Hillary Clinton, but honestly, Jean, as bad as the vicious lies against her are, I do not believe for a minute that they come only from her enemies in their intensity.  Rather, I think it is like a new and extra virulent disease crashing in waves upon the American continent and attacking the wiring in the brains of the population, especially in the section of the brain that handles analytic thinking.  Just let someone who is "mad" at someone whose name and fame are in the public sphere let loose with some entirely false and conspiratorial tale about the person they are angry with, and there is a large portion of the public who want nothing more than to embroider this story (or these stories) and pass them on, endlessly.  It seems to be something of an addiction, something that satisfies some deep need within these people.  It actually makes me feel most wretchedly ill to contemplate the seeming LACK of desire for verification:  the foaming at the mouth pack of paranoid homo sapiens not only lack a desire for what the truth is, they want to slay the messengers who can lead them to and through the facts, rather than have that truth revealed.  Of course, they would be outraged if anything similar should assail their OWN family or acquaintances, but for a perceived "enemy," anything, any dirty trick, any paranoid accusation, is a weapon to seize upon and spread like the sickness it is symptomatic of.  I have no answers for this state of affairs.  It is as though half the nation is in the grip of a psychosis, with no light switch that can be flipped to ON so they might SEE the messy muddle of their emotionally fueled behavior.