Women's Issues

[Steph]

Sexual crimes?? Sounds like they really are committing them.What a mess for the military.When will they learn.

[mabel1015j]

I'm not too surprised about the leaders of the prevention of sexual abuse being abusers. Being assigned to such a position, or to the Equal Opportunity Office is not a good career move, in fact the least capable, men in particular, are often assigned to that office because they want to get them "out of the way." they are often not the brightest bulb in the pack. They are not assigned to those positions because they have a passion for assissting people or care at all about equality or sexual abuse.

Barb, you weren't in the way of those tornados, were you?

Jean

[BarbStAubrey]

No harm - I am fine - they were north of me. Austin is just south of Tornado alley by about 30 miles. We do get them but not the real damaging kind. Had one a couple of years ago that twisted the branches of 3 trees in the backyard into a swirl - better the trees than the corner of my house.

Been trying to locate any teaching that is used in churches to explain why they are not doing something about minister's in sex scandals - not the same as using kids but one reinforces the other when behavior is blamed on the victims. The churches may not be running the show as they once did but the values learned in church still have an enormous influence on culture and this bit that came to me today is a thread that lets me know again, they use the Bible to justify their opinions and to blame rather than look at their own behavior.

This is an excerpt from "Why Megachurch Pastors Keep Falling Into Sexual Immorality" - FIrst it is minimized by labeling it "Immorality" not sexual abuse. http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/church-ministry/17654-why-megachurch-pastors-keep-falling-into-sexual-immorality The underlining is mine where the message is beyond believable.

"Sadly, the spirit of Jezebel is picking off pastors one by one as they succumb to the evil desires in their own hearts. Too few recognize the sinister workings of Jezebel's covert seduction. They’ve bought into what I call the “Jezebel deception” and are either tolerating sexual immorality in the church or merely failing to recognize the true Jezebel in operation because they are on a witch hunt for controlling, manipulative women.

What is the Spirit of Jezebel?

Jezebel is essentially a spirit of seduction that woos people into sexual immorality and idolatry. Jezebel comes to kill, steal and destroy by tempting you and then escorting you, willingly, into immorality and idolatry. Revelation 2:20 clearly reveals what the spirit of Jezebel is and its sinister motives. Jesus said, “Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.”

According to this author women are still controlling and manipulative - of course men are not - and powerful women are such an anachronism to the sweet docile "Laura Bush" type women who stays either drunk or on drugs to keep up the facade that any women who appears to take control over her life is considered controlling and manipulative and therefore, needs to be rooted out - and then she is the fall guy for surely this women with her power and strength must have the capability to entice like the call of the Lorelei to the four bold warriors.

This whole state of affairs reminds me of someone who wants to go to the edge and get so worked up trying to docile women that if they fall it is fate in the form of a woman. Frankly that is what I also think is at the bottom of the military culture - they never wanted women serving equal to men so they create their own war inside their ranks.

[Steph]

How stupid and silly and sad to be that afraid of women. That author has real problems in life.. We have had several ministers in this area fall from grace. There is a nice article in a local paper from a counselor of ministers. He explains that the powerful ministers start to be like politicians and actors and athletes and believe whatever they want is good. He says it is hard to make them see where they went wrong.

[MaryPage]

It is the same old, same old.  And women have been too passive to point out the truth and make change.  I am now convinced that only women can do this, because you see, men are still blaming women for their own, the men's, sexual forwardness and brutality.  Jezabelle, indeed!  And Eve tempted Adam and made him lose Paradise.  Sure, she did!
Scheesch!
It was the men, the shamans, who first made up this stuff about seductive women.  And then the wandering bards told and retold the stories.  The bards were extremely important, and all of the Ancient Greek myths and stories and histories come from them.  And the story tellers?  They were all men.
So women have been one of two things.  Yep!  Gals, irregardless of what your mothers told you, you have had only two choices.  You could be the madonna saint or that sexy temptress, the prostitute.
Groups of men are sworn to take care of their own, the men in their group, above all.  Above women and children.  Women and children are chaff in the wind, but men are dedicated and immortal.  Men make up a tribe, a fraternity, a set of doctors, priests, policemen, firemen, lawyers, politicians, and warriors.  I was born into and raised in the United States Army.  Anyone who graduated West Point was covered for, protected, and kept as long as possible, be they incurable drunks, womanizers, brawlers, or mentally ill.  Being transferred from post to post was one way of passing around the problems, but hey, you never betrayed, gave up on, or revealed the truth about a fellow officer.  Never.  Even in war, so what if whole companys, brigades, divisions consisting of someone's sons was lost due to the errors of a drunken fool.  The important thing is that that fool is ONE OF US!
Anyone, anyone at all, not in the fraternity is expendable.
And THIS is what our society is up against.
Women have to take over.  There is no other way.

[Steph]

Mens need to band together is mystifying at best. But I agree MaryPage, they do band together all the time. Women , maybe because of the children tend to be more involved in their households, their children, etc, but the young women now seem to do a better job of enforcing their ability to get together with each other. Maybe we should try to band. We certainly have on Seniorlearn. I feel like I have a band of sisters from all over the world all in my corner cheering me on and chatting together in great love and harmony.

[MaryPage]

I think I have mentioned this before, but I am not certain.  In any event, this is a Senior Citizen set of chat rooms, so I am sure my peers, albeit most of you are younger than I, will forgive my repeating myself, if indeed that is the case here.
But if there is a scintilla of doubt in your mind that males and females of our human species have wired in attitudes that predate civilization as we know it today, I double dare you to read SPIRIT OF THE RAINFOREST by Mark Andrew Ritchie.  It is a non-fiction account of what most anthropologists agree (I am only a student of that fascinating discipline, not a member) is the most primitive group of peoples on our planet today.  This book is extremely violent, but it will show you how deep into  our history the OWNERSHIP of females extends, and how innate is the male sense of rape being a reward for all males on the winning side of any conflict.
Speaking of which, only now, when most of my generation are dead and gone, and beyond being saddened by the smearing of our Yanks as triumphant victors of the battles, albeit again, that reputation is deserved and the accounts are factual, are books being published which detail the dreadful looting, killing, and rape perpetrated by our own American soldiers in and after World War II.  At the time, I truly believed we were whitened sepulchres of decency.  I wish these things had not been reveled in my lifetime.

[Steph]

I will have to be careful to not read those books. I know that men rape as a method of control and aggression. No sex actually, just power. and when you think of it, in war they feel like they can take what they want. But it is sad.. The only saving grace is that it is not universal.. Just some men, not all.

[MaryPage]

I have been listening to this audio books course called WHEN GODS WALKED THE EARTH.  I have not really learned anything new, but having it all strung together in lectures has been really pleasurable.  I listen while I take my walks.  Today I was thinking about the fact that supposedly Agamemnon chose to kill his daughter Iphigenia in order to have things work out so that the Greek fleet could sail for Troy and make war upon the Trojans.  And that this vast betrayal of a family member, whose protector he was supposed to be, took place approximately 2,500 to 3,000 years ago.
But war trumped child in importance, especially a girl child.  And the daughter, who was grown and hoping to be married, was his property to dispose of as he wished.
And I dispair because most of my sex cannot to this day see that we have historically been thought of as property to be owned.  Shoot, when credit cards first came out, which was after I was already a married woman, a woman could not get one IN HER NAME.  Single women could not get them at all, and married women had to have their husbands get a card in their name and then ask for a second one and give permission for their wives to use it.  Remember?  And single women could not get mortgages.  Women could own property and buy and sell it by the time I was born, albeit it was not always so, but the banks would not give them mortgages.

[MaryPage]

In Sunday's The Washington Post there is a small article relating that the legislature in Afghanistan has failed to pass a law proposed that would give the women of that country a few basic and decent rights.
Opponents argued, successfully, that this law would encourage disobedience in women.
The title of the proposed law was "The Elimination of Violence Against Women," and passage would have eliminated child marriage, forced marriages, and the tradition of exchanging women and girls as part of the settlement of disputes.  It would call domestic violence a crime, as well, and would do something Afghan men simply cannot imagine:  if this law had been passed, female victims of rape would no longer be forced to face criminal charges as fornicators and adulterers.  You see, now they are.  Still.
On this planet.
When they are not actually killed by their own family members in order to wipe away the stain on the honor of the family of the female who has been violently raped.  Hey, she has become soiled and is no longer of any use as a bargaining tool when settling an argument with another family!

[nlhome]

Just finished reading Seneca Falls Inheritance by Miriam Grace Monfredo. Set in 1848, when women here had few rights. Even their pay checks, if they worked, went to their fathers or husbands. Lots of history in that mystery book.

What made me stop and think was that it's been less than 100 years since the Constitution was amended to guarantee women the right to vote in this country. I think how old I am and look at that and realize that isn't so long ago, really. And when I was first married and working full time, I could not get a car loan, but my unemployed college student husband could. And a friend had been saving her money in her own account in a local bank, and her husband wanted to expand his business, so he was allowed to withdraw that money even though his name wasn't on the account. "Good Ole Boys" network.

[MaryPage]

That IS the way it was.  Back thar in the "good old days!"

[mabel1015j]

Saw this in my women's history newsletter this morning. The book sounds interesting, altho something that we may want to read in spurts, it could be intense......a plane shot down in Albania in WWII included 13 nurses. Apparently there is a lot of suspense, several attempts at escape before everybody, men and women get out. It's a piece of military history that does not exclude the story of the women involved.

http://www.chickhistory.com/2013/05/book-review-secret-rescue-untold-story.html

[BarbStAubrey]

http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-has-humanity-always-fantasized-about-capture-and-rape-women

[Steph]

Book sounds interesting.. Not many women prisoners of war..

[MaryPage]

It was so disgusting.  It was a huge indictment of what we have come to in this pompous nation of ours, and it made us look so ridiculous.
Those 12 men all lined up in a row behind a table facing a congressional committee.  Old men.  Well, younger than we are, but old men.  Fancy uniforms.  Rows and rows and rows of gaily colored ribbons.  Rows of stars.  Rows of bars.  Medals.  The whole fancy dancy Woo Hoo look at Important Me paraphernalia.  Scheesch!
And not one of them with a grain of sense.
Nope.
They want to keep all this sexual harassment/rape stuff under their command.  They want to keep on protecting their guys and demoting and demobbing the female complainers.
Look at them sitting there!  Theirs is a world where Men command and women open their legs when told, and then shut up.
Pardon my puke, you pompous asses;  but if I could, I would spew it right on your immaculate uniforms.

[BarbStAubrey]

I must say MaryPage that was a shocking sight to see - I had a brief glimpse on the repeat news last night and I thought at first I was watching another nation till I recognized a few faces and realized what it was all about and then the quick shot to only was it 2 women in the entire room on the Committee side - wow - talk about courage and hutzpah but thank God or a reasonable viewpoint would never have been even spoken.  That gal from New York that I remember was such a controversial choice when she was first in office is really a powerhouse articulating the basic needs of women.

[MaryPage]

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York.  She is beyond wonderful.  And brave.

The most amazing thing is that in the minds of these men, both military and politicians, you throw a bunch of young of the 2 sexes together, and this will be the outcome.  Will be.  Just good old mother nature and hormones.

(1) Rape is not sex.  It is power.
(2) There is NO excuse for sexual humiliation of any type, verbal or physical, and no excuse for rape.  Rape is a CRIME.
(3) Most of the 33,000+ instances of sexual harassment and rape in the services in the last year have been a matter of SUPERIOR OFFICERS, commissioned or non-commissioned, but NOT teenagers or even men in their twenties, harassing or raping women they commanded.  This amounts to not only crime, but betrayal of trust and of honor.  In two instances, there were complaints against officers who were actually in charge of looking into sexual harassment complaints in their sectors!

And these goofy, silly old men have the gross ignorance to sit there with  microphones in front of them and say, in effect, boys will be boys and this is what you must expect.  One blamed it on our television shows.

Where were their mothers when they were growing up?  Where are their wives and daughters?  Can we have a training program for old white males to teach them what rape is?  What women, all women, find unacceptable behavior?  What they cannot say or do to women?  And can we make it mandatory to attend these courses, or you are not eligible to hold public office or work for a government agency?  Please.

[BarbStAubrey]

they never wanted a mixed sex army, navy, air corp or marine corp. This was their proof that it would not work but it appears women will not be stopped and so they simply became more angry and used sexual abuse as a weapon by minimizing its effects.

[kidsal]

The only problem I can see in taking it out of the command structure is if an event takes place for example in a war zone where there is no civilian court.  Would require bringing all involved back to the US or bringing the civilian lawyers to the war zone.
Was astounded that the military academies would want to ignore these offences and have an officer with this kind of record.
I worked for the federal government for years and attended many classes on what was appropriate behavior so it is not that these people are not aware.

[Steph]

NY Times yesterday had yet another rape in Indian of an American woman.Granted that hitchhiking in the middle of the night is pure stupid in that country, still she should not have been raped. But common sense is always a good thing anywhere.

[MaryPage]

I am with you all the way, Steph.

We must never fall into the error of blaming the VICTIM.  No child, no girl, no woman should ever be raped.  Anywhere.  Anyhow.

No matter the place, the hour, what she is wearing.  Rape is a terrible crime taking away the individuals control over her own body and inherent right to privacy.  Wherever and whenever it occurs, it is a dreadful violation of the freedom of a person to be safe from unwanted physical contact with another being.  It is an attack and it is recognized as an attack and as a crime world over.  By the laws.  Men still require convincing.

Yes, I would advise all girls and women to be alert, on guard, and PRUDENT in the matter of where they go and when they go there and what they are wearing.  I think women need to cover up more.  Not burkas, for heavens sake, but lower hemlines, bellies covered, higher necklines.  Women have got to go back to dressing to look beautiful, and NOT dressing to look sexy.  Sexy has to be OUT in the fashion world, for the simple reason of safety.  Don't go out walking at night ANYwhere, not even in your own neighborhood, and then go only with 2 or more others.  Don't go out at night to parties or clubs or shows, etc., as a single.  Go only with a group.  When, oh when, are we going to start showing some sense in what we do about cutting down on the odds of something bad happening to us, given that we do not seem to be able to bring about a cessation of raping and sexual assault?  And then there is just plain robbery and mugging!  I get the willies just wondering where ANY female is coming from when she makes a conscious choice to go out on her own in the dark. 

[nlhome]

Rape is about power- so what role does suggestive attire play, really? I haven't seen any numbers. But I have read about rapes that are certainly circumstances where attire has nothing to do with it.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear I cannot agree MaryPage - I think that is just what women are saying - enough is enough about being caged in by choice of dress and when and where she goes reducing her rights to freedom because men have not been taught self control. That is like saying because of a person's race or religion they should dress a certain way and not go out alone at night or if they do go out, only in certain areas of town - it is what Blacks had to contend with and we are saying that is how a woman should live...?

Thinking as we did back before the woman's rights movement of the 1970s is the same thinking of safety many are using today as an overall national policy - giving up freedom for safety since 9/11 - this attitude is basic to how we are allowing those with sick behavior, those who have been taught that this sick behavior regardless towards women or another nation or another race, is free game for them to terrorize -

When you consider it, the various churches are terrorizing women taking away their right to choose because the choice women could make is not in keeping with their interpretation of the Bible. This control follows the patriarchal belief that women cannot be trusted, that goes back to the ancient  myths therefore, as many powerful groups, they throw those they fear under the bus by making them appear weak or foolish. When anyone fears their own weakness they condemn weakness in others.

In some countries women are expected to dress in Burkas so men cannot look at them and we know of other atrocities on young women that for generations, hundreds of years, have so terrorized their weak status that the women themselves are the brutal perpetrators of these atrocities.

Dressing out of fear is demeaning - also, it has been proven that men rape regardless what you are wearing or your age as the show with Edith Bunker showed us. If scanty dress were the culprit we would have out of control rapes at the beach.

Seems to me sex is like fire it has its good and its damaging aspects - we know that wood, especially dry wood easily burns and yet, that did not stop us from building our houses of wood, or using wood by-products to make paper - we do not fireproof newspapers and magazines or our wooden furniture - we expect those who use wood products to use their head and those committing sex crimes are not using their head - they believe what they want should be theirs as if the world is supposed to OK any obsession - OK their lack of control. Does that mean we should learn to be co-dependent preventing those with no control from acting out their obsession - drugs, alcohol, betting, power, sex...

When you think on it a warrior Knight all about chivalry was an easy jump because being a soldier meant facing fear and finding courage - when soldiering became corporate, working towards the next promotion courage was no longer valued in the same way - when you believe in yourself, have skills and are filled with courage there is no need to be fearful of a woman - when you are in direct competition with a women you use whatever means to win and so my thought is to get back to raising boys and training young men to face fear and uncover their courage so the Lorelei myth about women is no longer a factor. As to men in other cultures they have to sort out their religious beliefs and extract the historical cultural beliefs.

[Steph]

Actually I think it is stupid to hitchhike period, but I do know in Europe it is considered acceptable. I do believe that in a foreign country, male or female, know the rules of that country helps make your life easier.. Me.. I had a few things I wanted to see and do in India, but with the current atmosphere would not go near the place. Its like Dubai.. not a place for me.

[MaryPage]

I am in total agreement that women should not be raped.  Period.  I agree in every respect and degree that the level of their sobriety, the clothing they wear or lack, the time of day or night and/or the place should not be considered provocative.

That being said, and agreed upon, let us be practical about the safety and sanctity of our own bodies.

We are never going to erase rape from this world.  Never.  Ever.  We can make more people aware of the outrageous crime it is and get more attention to catching all culprits and punishing them thoroughly, starting with taking away their high offices and/or jobs.  Or low.  Whatever.

But I double dare all of those who say we should not be CAREFUL to put on a bikini and walk alone in the worst section of your city or town or county come midnight.  Make that a triple.

[BarbStAubrey]

I guess then the question is rape because of being provocative which those they apprehend claim, or is it about power and regardless of dress, of course those who need to show evidence of their power usually live on the 'wrong' side of town - but more, it seems to me a bikini is beach wear - if we believe it is a power move than regardless what a lone women would wear she is vulnerable to those who have to prove themselves, as are lone men who appear to be less than a billboard for a marine. If we have learned over the past 40 years about the dynamics of rape and incest, we know, men grow out of rape when their libido is reduced where as, incest continues till a man is 100 or dead.

It seems to me this is aggression but rather than using a gun or fists it is with sex - however, I agree we will never get rid of any obsessive action that is driven by some deep seated need - as long as women are second class is what I see is the culprit - second class makes a victim to any power that for one reason or another needs to flex its muscles - and to me the big one is as long as churches keep women second class there is a pale over what any nation does to lift women to an equal status with men - the men then always have the church behind them to justify their viewpoint and that viewpoint drifts into the wider culture.

[MaryPage]

I had an email from Emily's List today saying a man in Texas has been completely exonerated from shooting a woman to death because she refused him sex.

http://www.care2.com/news/member/100661215/3592172

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/13623/a-texas-jury-did-what

And so on and on and on and on -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   

[BarbStAubrey]

As much as I think a women should not be made to have sex at the same time she was selling sex - she was paid to perform sex with him and after taking the money she was obligated to give him the goods she sold - and so to take this story and apply it to a date and the 'right' women should be able to say no is not only miss-leading but dangerous.

If he went to a farmer's market and handed over $150 for a quarter of a cow cut and wrapped and the farmer took the money but did not deliver it would be the same thing -

Unfortunately there are still old laws on the books that were in affect 100 years ago. No one who does not deliver a paid for service in any stretchof our imagination today deserve a gun shot death however, that is how it was and his lawyer found his loophole.  In this one the other unfortunate is the names suggest Mexican culture and for that you have his pride and honor wrapped up in the incident since machismo is very much alive among most Mexican men. Texas is a quarter to a third Mexican.

[Steph]

You do wonder how many women need to get the message on rape and prostitution. I know, it is a way to survive,but I think the cost to your mind is overwhelming.Scrub floors.. etc.

[MaryPage]

So if a little girl sold a man a box of Girl Scout Cookies, in Texas, and never delivered them, he would have the right to find her and shoot her?  Dead?

[BarbStAubrey]

I know - but there are many archaic laws on the books - and as horrible as they sound now hopefully we have grown past the need for these laws when they were created for a time when there was little lawyering, few jails, and court rooms were maybe in the county seat - but then there were no Girl Scouts much less little girls selling cookies -

It is just a case of a lawyer finding one of these old laws still on the books. It would be a job to take on but who would fund it to compile all the out of date laws and then in one discharge get rid of them. However, this is a law that was to address cattle rustling.

I doubt the young women or even the guy knew the law existed - unfortunately, she may have been killed even if she attempted to return his money.  He wanted what he wanted and thought he carried out his half of the bargain. When she accepted she carried out her half but did not follow through. No, I am not callus to think she deserved to be killed but the law is what it is and it is not the first or only law, old or new that is used in ways none of us could imagine.

[Steph]

I have always wondered if there should not be  law that requires states to reexamine their laws every so many years.There are a number of archaic laws in many states.

[BarbStAubrey]

Steph a good idea but funding the project would be the trick so I think it would have to be some outside grant but then I could see when attorneys are involved and politics the wrangling that would go on to have the laws dismissed so the time and money would become astronomical.

We have no idea what went on between the two in question however I can almost see a scenario where with his libido high she taunted him so that all he had was his emotions and the oldest part of our brain going for him - in other words no thought with not only his sexuality threatened but is libido as well - some girls ride high with their only weapon which is to use the sex of the guy against them since they are past working from any emotional level. No, she did not deserve to be shot dead but I can see how she may not have been innocent victim of his response.  the most unfortunate part is the way the story was made into the news - none of the background was included - it was written for readers to have a heightened shocked response.

[Steph]

Ah,but all of our newsis that way now. Living in central Florida, I have been reading and pondering on the Trayvon Martin Case for a long time now.. Amazingly enough the defense attorney wants to bring up this boys whole life up till , he was killed. How about the man who did that. He was a kid.. nothing more, nothing less and a cop wanne be went after him..Very sad and stupid case.

[MaryPage]

All over this nation, Republicans are passing bills in state houses that forbid abortion AND contraception!  Makes no sense.  Makes no sense at all.  But they are doing this.  And they are going all out to close down Planned Parenthood clinics, even those THAT DO NOT OFFER ABORTIONS.  Most do not, you know.  Only about THREE PER CENT (3%) of what Planned Parenthood does involves abortion.  Most of what they do, and many of their clinics do ONLY this, is offer free mammograms to those who cannot afford them and free birth control counseling, and in cases, again who cannot afford it, free birth control.  And advice about sexually transmitted diseases.  Women's problems.  Solving women's functional problems for those who cannot afford such help.  And charging those who can.  Can afford it.
So I see this whole thing as an Attack on Women.
And it is coming from men.  All from men.
I do not understand why there is not a rising roar of outrage coming from the women of this nation.  I just do not understand.
I was a Republican all of my life right up until 1980 when suddenly, for the very first time EVER, abortion was in the Republican platform.  They were against it.  And I have voted Democratic ever since.  Because I believe in individual rights just as much as the gun owners do, and my body is MY BODY, and your body is your body, and I and my doctor will decide what I do and you and your doctor can decide what you do.
And I cannot understand men who say they are having their rights under the constitution taken away if they cannot have their automatic weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition, but no woman has a right to decide when and if she should have a child.  Or children.  She is to have no such rights OVER HER VERY OWN LIFE AND BODY!
Which attitude does, indeed, reduce us to the like of toasters.  Baby making machinery.  No barriers allowed to putting the seed in, and no choice as to cooking it until done.  And all mishaps, such as miscarriages, must be reported to the police for investigation.  Honestly, this is actually in some of the bills being passed!  And in one state, the governor himself will study and decide about permission for an abortion.  ALL requests for an abortion MUST go to him and permission come from him.
And we deplore the condition of women in the rest of this world!
I am 84, and these outrageous laws do not and will not affect me.  But Where are the women?

[mabel1015j]

The beat is being heard MaryPage, those women are starting to march.

Those states are setting up a challenge to Roe v Wade, especially the Iowa governor  making the medicade abortion decisions. That is so obviously unconstitutional under Roe v Wade. But hooray for you for your outrage, i'm with you.

[MaryPage]

Well, Jean, apparently there are two of us!

Now I want to hear from the other over two hundred MILLION!

[maryz]

They're always hearing from me, our four daughters and two granddaughters.  Not that it does any good.

[jane]

And I have already sent emails to my Iowa state senators/reps about the Gov's wanting HIS plan to take the place of the expanded Medicaid federal program...EVEN though it will cover fewer people AND cost millions more.  The ego of male politicians is beyond belief!