Author Topic: Women's Issues (Read 385362 times)

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #640 on:** July 08, 2013, 01:31:37 PM »

Women's Issues

If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?

Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)

How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?

Let's talk!

National Women's History Project

Great Margaret and Helen piece - and a Wendy Davis does not happen in a vacuum - much planning and chess playing went into her filibuster that also included assuring there were fans in the gallery - smart fans who know the rules therefore, they could erupt as they did when they noted the rule-breaking tactics. Like many of the strong women before her, Barbara Jordan, Liz Carpenter, Ann Richards, their support is strongest among the educated women of Texas who are willing to step beyond the traditional views of this conservative state. This state basis its conservative mindset mostly in 'Washington, leave us alone' and so with that mantra women, blue or red there is a unifying pull that says to the male leadership of the state - 'leave us alone!'

A Gloria Steinem quote - "Institutional control of women’s reproductive capacities has been the cornerstone of the patriarchal system since its inception a few thousand years ago." The patriarchy of this country have been gradually loosing control. It is not just Texas where bills are passing the state legislature - other states need their Wendy Davis. Without a strong feminist leader freedom for women is scattered and ineffective.

Steph · « **Reply #641 on:** July 09, 2013, 08:54:05 AM »

Pictures on the news of the largefemale crowds gathering in Texas, not that Perry cares. He is busy deep in his idiocy to become the president once again. Sigh.

MaryPage · « **Reply #642 on:** July 09, 2013, 11:53:09 AM »

Well, I for one wish it would be Rick Perry, Republican male pinhead against Hilary Clinton, Democrat female wonder woman. It would settle the War Against Women battle once and for all.

Steph · « **Reply #643 on:** July 10, 2013, 08:40:12 AM »

I love Hillary, but she is a target to many people.

jane · « **Reply #644 on:** July 10, 2013, 09:10:34 AM »

Steph...I think she did wonderful things as Secy of State, but I'm not sure she's a good candidate for Pres. I don't know who would be yet.

Steph · « **Reply #645 on:** July 11, 2013, 08:53:22 AM »

Jane, I agree.She is carrying some heavy baggage.. I lean toward Elizabeth Warren, but she is not that well known yet.

MaryPage · « **Reply #646 on:** July 11, 2013, 10:45:59 AM »

Oh Steph! If I could make my very own choice, it would be ELIZABETH WARREN all the way!
I was an Obama supporter, not a Hilary supporter.
I am very, very opposed to dynasties, and I cannot help but agree with Barbara Bush (who knew!) that this country is way too vast for there to be any need for dynasties.
Yes, I want a woman, but up there backaways when I said Clinton, that was just an assumption that her candidacy is a given. And I think it is. But if I had a bazillion dollars, I would do everything the Brothers Koch do and then do them some better and sell Warren to the country and buy the votes for Warren.
I mean, one bag of dirty tricks deserves another few bags.
And this old bag would do it if she could!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #647 on:** July 11, 2013, 01:21:14 PM »

Really!?! I love Elizabeth Warren's idealogy and her fight for good policy, but compared to Hillary's experience and knowledge? No comparison, in my mind. Hillary has been through the fires, honed and forged like steel AND she can win. She has a broad constituency.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #648 on:** July 11, 2013, 02:44:53 PM »

And Bill is not the anchor he was 8 years ago...

Steph · « **Reply #649 on:** July 12, 2013, 08:51:53 AM »

Oh , make no mistake, I will vote for and support Hillary..and work for her if I can. But I have conservative friends ( sigh) and they are like rabid dogs if you mention her name. Truly hate beyond any norm..

MaryPage · « **Reply #650 on:** July 12, 2013, 09:32:32 AM »

I think it can be traced back to that video Jerry Falwell sent out attacking the Clinton's over WhiteWater and claiming they had Vince Foster killed. In short, it accused them of murder. I read in the paper back in the day that he sent out 250,000 of these.
This morning I wake up to the Washington Post headline that the Republicans have done away with food stamps.
That does it!
We have the party of Hate and the party of Peace & Goodwill.
And I guess all peoples who have a desperate need to join the raging rivers of hate will have their heyday.
I just hope Peace & Goodwill can prevail. I was a lifelong Republican, from darling Wendell Wilkie right through Gerald Ford. Then I balked at Reagan, and the reason was that for the first time EVER, in 1980, my Republican Party put abortion in its platform. And I could not sign on to that. Never imagined I would become a Democrat, but here I am. It all went topsy turvy in my beloved South. First my party that freed the slaves fought the Democrats who killed to keep segregation. Then all of a sudden, the people on each side changed their party affiliation! I guess it was that Dixiecrat thing and Thurman and his cronies. But I tell the young, and they just stare at me with faraway looks in their eyes, that in my very own lifetime everything political party wise was Just The Opposite of what it is today throughout the South.
I do think, and I do hope, my beloved Virginia is cracking under the strain of finding these crazies credulous.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #651 on:** July 12, 2013, 12:47:25 PM »

MaryPage - i used to talk about that very topsy-turvy happening to my college classes. It was a very interesting historical event.

Jean

maryz · « **Reply #652 on:** July 12, 2013, 01:19:01 PM »

The change of the "Solid South" from Democratic to Republican was a result of the so-called Southern Strategy, started by Nixon and Goldwater. Check it out.

MaryPage · « **Reply #653 on:** July 12, 2013, 04:10:58 PM »

There was a time, and it seemed a lifetime to me, as it was all I knew growing up, when my home state of Virginia was owned, lock, stock and barrel, as they used to say, by the Democrats. It was a political "machine," just like in Chicago and New York. I swear. Harry Byrd was the head and it was known as The Byrd Machine. He was a Senator and was brother to the Admiral Byrd who famously went to the North Pole. Many times back in the day you could see either one of them just walking down the street in Winchester. The Byrd family owned a lot of apple orchards.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #654 on:** July 12, 2013, 06:02:53 PM »

What gets me is how folks argue apples when the discussion is about oranges - they do not understand how they can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time - I know I am - I just want me and my doctor to make the decision like any guy can expect about his anatomy and health choices.

MaryPage · « **Reply #655 on:** July 12, 2013, 07:57:07 PM »

Well, exactly. Precisely.
Men just don't get it. Have you ever in your entire LIFE heard a woman say: "I think I'd like to have an abortion?" Have you ever imagined, or could you imagine, a public hall full of women and someone asking them to raise their hands if they would like to have an abortion?
No woman WANTS to have an abortion. I don't care a fig for all the people who have said: "Oh, I know a woman who has used abortion as birth control." I do not believe it. Perhaps there are a few women, a handful of women, who have had more than one abortion. They had to, I say HAD TO, have been driven to it by extreme necessity. No woman WANTS to have an abortion.
I have never had an abortion. To my knowledge, none of my 5 daughters has ever had an abortion. To my knowledge, 2 of my 13 granddaughters has had an abortion. I have no idea, in short, whether or not any of my daughters ever had, for they have never told me they have. They have said that they have not, and I believe them. I also tend to believe that the 2, one to each, of my granddaughters who have had an abortion, and only the one each, are the only abortions among my 13 granddaughters. The one is now the mother of 3 living children and the other of 1 living child. They had extremely compelling reasons for requiring those abortions, and it most definitely did not include WANTING to have an abortion or not wanting to be a mother.
No, the men are wrong. Women come complete with the desire, for most, to have children. Most women. Most of the time. But whether a woman has the desire to be a mother or not, she does not, she never ever does, DESIRE AN ABORTION! It is anti-nature.
But abortions have been had for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years, and will continue as long as our species exists. Historians have read and written about and scientists have confirmed that there was once upon this planet a natural abortionificant plant that grew. They know that it especially grew profusely around the Mediterranian, with huge amounts reported growing wild in North Africa. It was a "weed". It was all used up. People never thought to plant and grow it. They thought it would always be there. But demand outraced supply, and it has disappeared. Gone extinct.
Our personal and private lives belong to each of us.
Decisions about our bodies are ours to make.
And the same damn men who want to RULE that all of these babies be born are the ones who vote against feeding them once they are here!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #656 on:** July 12, 2013, 08:20:56 PM »

Yes, they just REMOVED a lot of money for food stamps from the agriculture bill to give a lot of money to agribusinesses!

Jean

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #657 on:** July 12, 2013, 09:05:55 PM »

what shocks me and took the air out of my tire is that it is women who are behind these anti-abortion bills bringing little booties to the podium when they talk.

MaryPage · « **Reply #658 on:** July 13, 2013, 08:49:20 AM »

There you have it.
The FOCUS of the two groups in opposition is different.
Women who have been duped by men to be on the other side are not thinking of themselves or the generations of women who came before them or their daughters and granddaughters. The spotlight is completely on a being who has never been born. Has never taken a breath. For them, it is like a political baby shower!
Focus should be entirely on the woman who is already here! On the human being trying her best to make a decent life for herself and her family. Trying, trying, trying. And the men just want to push her back down into despair. To no hope.
Again, please note that the women haters who are figuratively lifting those unborn children up high above the altar will block every effort later to feed, house, clothe and educate them.

Steph · « **Reply #659 on:** July 13, 2013, 09:01:52 AM »

Yes, just two days ago , I had lunch with three delightful women.. two of which are rabid conservatives. They were actually making a list of all the people they think the Clintons had killed. Sort of sad actually.. You could never change them. They simply would not listen to reason. The third woman said nothing and looked at me.. I just said nothing as well. Ihave lost several friends in the past few years to the conservative-liberal thing.. I have a young friend who is the most conservative human, I know.. She is truly angry ,, very smart... and prone to horrible cartoons on facebook..Sigh. I have known her since she was about 6.. I remember her teens and early 20's and know that she had an abortion,, ran away with a horrible abusive male and finally landed safely into a good marriage and three children. Now she is so anti abortion, it is scary.. I know that if I brought it up, she would say, she was an exception, but of course she wasnt.. Sad.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #660 on:** July 13, 2013, 10:43:17 AM »

Given the nature of remarks made to the Texas House by those condemning pro-choice as their way to support pro-life, not only horrified me - It was like being in another galaxy - I had not heard such low, nasty, emotional, over the top demeaning of women as over sexed, promiscuous, sluts, murders, baby killers you name it in 40 years. The only difference instead of an army of men testifying in this manner as it was 40 years ago this time to my shock it was 90% women!!

My salvation has been to keep these famous quotes on my mind, repeat them often and keep some dignity knowing we will have a law suit very soon.

"Observe which side resorts to the most vociferous name-calling and you are likely to have identified the side with the weaker argument and they know it." ~ Charles R. Anderson

"A last trick is to become personal, insulting, rude, as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, and that you are going to come off worst. It consists in passing from the subject of dispute, as from a lost game, to the disputant himself, and in some way attacking his person. It may be called the _argumentum ad personam_, to distinguish it from the _argumentum ad hominem_, which passes from the objective discussion of the subject pure and simple to the statements or admissions which your opponent has made in regard to it. But in becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack to his person, by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. It is an appeal from the virtues of the intellect to the virtues of the body, or to mere animalism. This is a very popular trick, because every one is able to carry it into effect; and so it is of frequent application." --Arthur Schopenhauer (1788—1860) German philosopher.

"He that flings dirt at another dirtieth himself most."
--English proverb

"If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names. --attributed to Elbert Hubbard (1859—1915)

MaryPage · « **Reply #661 on:** July 13, 2013, 01:44:42 PM »

Since when did the Pro-Choice Blue become adopted instead of the red they have ALWAYS & TRADITIONALLY used for all of their demonstrations and bumper stickers and pins, etc. by the Anti-Abortion people?
Well, apparently Pro-Choice let it happen without a squeak!
So now? Well, now I am going to be wearing a LOT of orange!
Gawd, I wish I weren't 84 and ailing. I'd be right in there!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #662 on:** July 13, 2013, 02:40:57 PM »

Here Pro-life uses blue - rather than go to red, pro-choice used the burnt orange which has symbolic meaning to UT - the more state tradition that could be pulled into the fray the better. Red is Texas Tech up on Lubbock and it could also be close to maroon for A&M. Both student bodies very conservative plus, the Pubs that just about own the state make this a red state. However, the Pubs adopted red white and blue using both the American and Texas flag back when Shrub was running for office and so burnt orange was a color not used ever by Pubs - it brought the issue away from the traditional Dem vs Pub and is associated with a well revered liberal, as compared to the rest of the state, University with its principle campus located in the most liberal spot in the state.

Here symbols and colors and our state flag and our state history and myths are big - elections are won calling them to the attention of the public - this is how Perry won his last election - he had nothing to say but was the best dang cowboy Texians ever saw ride into Austin. There is fierce rivalry between A&M and Texas - with Perry a graduate of A&M one more reason to flaunt burnt orange which is like a suerte de capote to Perry.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #663 on:** July 13, 2013, 10:14:45 PM »

mabel1015j · « **Reply #664 on:** July 14, 2013, 12:25:50 AM »

I just looked in on the political discussion on Seniors and Friends to see what was being said about the Texas legislature's behavior and the Zimmerman decision. I know many of us have tried to be a part of that discussion, but there are a few people on there who drive out any sensible, adult discussion.

I left this reply for them...............

"Why can't people of differing opinions have an adult conversation about issues any more without name-callng and demeaning each other? If you were talking to a friend who disagreed with you, would you call them names, would you be scarcastic about their opinions? I just don't undertand, is it because we aren't face-to-face, that we can't actually see each other's faces, or that we won't have to meet each other in the super market, or at church or at a family gathering, so you really don't know me, i am invisible and therefore have no responsibility for what i say?

I blame the Archie Bunker show. I laughed at a lot of that show, but it was the first show on television where people were face to face rude and demeaning to each other. I'm sorry it happened. I like having smart, adult conversations about issues, but it's hard to find these days."

kidsal · « **Reply #665 on:** July 14, 2013, 05:00:59 AM »

Turned 80 this year. I feel I am again living in the 1930-50s and we have lost all that women fought for as far as our rights. I just don't understand where these people came from who say they don't want government in their lives but have no problem interfering with others lives. These people who don't care if others go without food, medical attention, the right to vote without standing in line for hours, the right to a fare wage. Had a discussion about abortion in the event of rape with a Right-to-Life friend. She said she knew a woman who "chose" to keep the baby. I reminded her that indeed she did have a "choice."
I hope we still have the strength to fight and that younger women will wake up to what is being done to them.
Laugh at those legislatures who have bills to outlaw Sharia Law. Sharia Law --Republicans are practicing it now.
Wonder how long it will be before the President of Mexico shows up to shout "Tear Down This Fence!"

MaryPage · « **Reply #666 on:** July 14, 2013, 08:57:56 AM »

Oh my, so many thoughts I agree with!
And I also agree that there is no sense to attacking A PERSON because of their views. Their opinions are as good as mine! They have precisely the same right to them as have I.
Perhaps we are discovering a main factor in the great divide in this country.
There are those who want to understand, comfort, console, assist and restart other folks. And there are those who want to bind up and control and stamp down upon other folks.
The helpers care and the controllers condemn.

jeriron · « **Reply #667 on:** July 14, 2013, 10:23:24 AM »

Mabel

That is the main reason why most people have not posted on the political boards on Seniorsand friends any longer. I'm sure marry page feels the same.

MaryPage · « **Reply #668 on:** July 14, 2013, 10:37:01 AM »

You got that right!

Scheesch!

Steph · « **Reply #669 on:** July 14, 2013, 10:46:35 AM »

I remember senior net and the horrid fury engendered on the political discussions.This is the only political discussion and you can bet if we had a lot of men on here, they would be busy telling us how to run our lives on this discussion. I remember Women only on Seniornet and the men on that one.

MaryPage · « **Reply #670 on:** July 14, 2013, 12:09:26 PM »

If the men come in here with a mindset to put us down, or anyone, male or female, comes in to attack us personally instead of the issues, I will just pick up my old shoes and depart. Leave. Quit.
This is not a matter of feeling defeated on the battlefield, but rather a refusal to consider it a battlefield in which one may wound another on purpose. I prefer a debate.
And one of the rules I like in any debate is that you can put forth your facts and your arguments on behalf of your proposed solutions to problems without attacking another debater. And you MUST be stating facts that can be corroborated, and not making things up. As someone famously said: You are entitled to your own set of opinions, but you may not make up your own set of facts. Or something like that!
Recently, I left not one, but two forums that had a lot to do with opinions, but nothing to do with politics, because someone attacked my taste and my intelligence. Imagine! I was shocked. And my attitude remains: if you are going to be that way, this is no longer a civilized forum and I do not belong here. By the way, and a sad way it is, it was the same person in both places. Oh well!

MaryPage · « **Reply #671 on:** July 14, 2013, 12:11:07 PM »

I am so excited! Great granddaughter Bella, who will be 11 next month, is to accompany her paternal grandmother on a college semester trip around the world from January 10, 2014 to May 2, 2014. It is an annual voyage set up by the University of Virginia (known to us Virginians simply as The University) and this grandmother works for that program. So Bella will see 16 cities in 12 countries in 112 days, and take some shipboard college courses as well. Bella goes to the same private school her mother, my granddaughter, attended, and they are all for her taking a semester off to do this. There is nothing to beat travel for opening the windows of the mind!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #672 on:** July 14, 2013, 01:09:36 PM »

Thank you all for being here and for voicing your opinions and sharing info everyday.

Wow! MaryPage! Sounds wonderful. Wouldn't we all love to be on that trip?

maryz · « **Reply #673 on:** July 14, 2013, 01:31:04 PM »

What a great experience for your great-granddaughter, MaryPage! I wish I could do that now.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #674 on:** July 14, 2013, 01:57:53 PM »

Whoowh several messages since I started to write this but here it is - OK fair is fair - I agree none of us want the vitriol of men speaking for us with their viewpoint which is to save their sperm in all instances. However, we are not giving room either for any who post in Senior Learn who may see pro-life without a choice as valable.

Could we respectfully listen - do we know how to listen for areas of agreement - and if we did and we could find no agreement would we all be tempted to add our two cents so who ever had the courage of her conviction would be dumped on by all of us who are in agreement. Because we have enjoyed an agreement on most issues that pertain to women we make this discussion very different than the one on Senior and Friends.

For many years the pro-life folks had men speaking and seemed to be dominated by men - this time to my shock it is mostly women - I saw mostly young women with families bringing their children and husband. I wonder how much is still an issue that once a women becomes dependent on a man as many women experience when their children are young, in order to assure peace at home they adapt to a man's thinking to the point of becoming rapid in the adoption of these ideas. But then I have never had a women explain why she is pro-life except to bring in the innocence of a not yet formed potential child. Trying to suggest that is like apples to oranges and the conversation quickly becomes an exercise of condemning name calling.

Again,the quote from Arthur Schopenhauer about substituting name calling for discussion, suggests this is not an issue the pro-life folks have thought through more than the potential child and controlling anyone who is not accepting of, not only a potential child not yet formed but even the first few days attachment of the sperm to the egg.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #675 on:** July 14, 2013, 01:58:46 PM »

I still think the answer is to promote to everyone the day after pill and to not live in fairly land innocence and explain to young girls by the time they are 11 the process happening to them - ignorance is a breeding ground for predators - why do we think it is wholesome to keep young girls from the knowledge of their own bodies - I know it was considered an embarrassment to discuss when my daughter was young but I forged on when she was about 14 without the helps out there now - seems to me the process is now taught in schools that will allow it - anyhow with this teaching I think girls should all have a day after pill intro -

We know that 2 out of every 10 girls are sexually abused and another 2 out of every 10 making it 4 out of every 10 girls are molested. Molestation and abuse usually starts for most at the age of 5 or 6 - the habit of how to understand love is set after years and most do not want their family member going to jail and they do not want to have to leave the house so it is kept a secret that they then are more accepting of boys sexual advances.

We could at least arm these girls with the knowledge of protection while they still control their secret - or do we take all power and control from them in our rage - our rage is not about justice it is about our horror with the predator and shattering helpless anger at ourselves for not realizing what was happening, as if we could wipe the issue and our feelings off the face of the earth by taking a girl's only power and control out of her hands.

We are talking about minimum a quarter of all girls who do not realize they are being set up for rape since the come-on sounds familiar. There would be a huge fight trying to teach in public schools the day after pill during sex education therefore, I think the only way to give the idea legs is to start a campaign - we probably need an outline of words and then if you think this idea has legs we could all email our list.

I believe in empowering women even if they are only 11 or 12 years old. Even if we started with what to see that is dangerous for a college age girl - rape is not the stranger on a dark street - or even the stranger climbing in your window - sometimes it is a friend but often it is a date - we talk of date rape but the process, the words used are not made into a cartoon and then more ads for the day after pill.

Steph · « **Reply #676 on:** July 15, 2013, 09:11:18 AM »

I know that I will not put people down who believe in Prolife.. but my problem is that I believe that your body is just that yours, not anyone elses to give orders to. Believe in prolife, but dont try to force me into believing it.. Yes, there are a lot of women involved in this and really dont know why. I do know that if you outlaw abortion, you are simply moving it back underground and that is a horrible thing.

MaryPage · « **Reply #677 on:** July 15, 2013, 10:59:02 AM »

Oh, it is SO obvious what happened re the women in Texas.
The men got together and told each other about the TV and radio and Facebook and Twitter and newpaper accounts of The War On Women and the Republicans being anti-women.
And so the preachers got the women out and the male politicians got their women out and they put the women and the booties up in front of the microphones to make it seem like, shucks Ma'am, y'all jist Know most little women are Pro Life.
I agree with you, Steph; I will not attack someone who feels deeply in their heart against abortion.
But you are right: this is MY damn body and I want no laws from the government, any government, as to what decisions about the medical care of my body will be made. My doctors and I can take care of that. It is a PRIVATE matter and does not belong on the public lawbooks.
As for abortion, feel what you may, nobody and no laws will ever prevent abortions from taking place on a daily basis all over this planet. Even animals do it in extremity and when something is wrong. The whole point in making it legal, THE WHOLE POINT, was and will be to SAVE LIFE! The life of the woman seeking the abortion! We were dying in DROVES from coat hangers and such. Scheesch!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #678 on:** July 15, 2013, 02:26:45 PM »

Well said everybody. I say ditto!

My "In the words of women" newsletter highlighted Catherine Sedgewick today. She's one if the first published women, particularly f novels, in the country. Here is a link to the newsletter and a link to her Wikipedia page. Click on the blue links to read her works.

http://inthewordsofwomen.com/?p=825

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharine_Sedgwick#Writings

MaryPage · « **Reply #679 on:** July 16, 2013, 07:51:18 AM »

If you subscribe to THE NEW YORKER, or can get your hands on the July 8 & 15, 2013 (a "double" issue), do read the stupendously wonderful article by Jill Lepore titled THE PRODIGAL DAUGHTER. The cover is black, with an ever so clever reverse cartoon cover of the Sesame Street characters sitting on a couch watching the Supreme Court. Anyway, Lepore writes most beautifully here about Jane Franklin, beloved sister to Benjamin. They came from a family of 17 children, and were Benny and Jenny, each others favorite. They had a life long correspondence and he wrote to her more than any other person. Who knew? Oh, do read it if you possibly can!
Here in my part of the country, we have lost our largest abortion clinic. In Fairfax, Virginia. They simply could not redo their rented space to conform with the state's new requirements, which are that they be built and equipped just like a fully functioning hospital! Right now, Girlfriends, we are LOSING this battle!

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Author Topic: Women's Issues (Read 385362 times)