Travels with Herodotus by Ryszard Kapuscinski

[JoanP]

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Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski

"We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC.  And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated.        Sara Wheeler  The Guardian

                                                                                                                             

Discussion Schedule: Jan. 4-12     Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World Jan. 13-18     Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings Jan. 19-25    Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes          Jan. 26         Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness

For Your Consideration
January 19-25
"Among Dead Kings" up to "Time Vanishes"

1. Among Dead Kings : Are you noticing similarities between Herodotus and Kapuscinski's method of reporting?  Does Kapuscinski seem to find common ground between the Shah of Iran and Darius based on his reading of the Histories?

2. Does Herodotus try to explain how  a king like Darius could perform such cruel, heartless acts and then  do something he calls "useful and good?"  Could something as magnificent as Persepolis have come about without the inhuman suffering - caused by Darius himself?   

3. Honors for the Head of Histiaeus: Are you noting the many contradictions in Herodotus' reports?  He describes the king of Sparta as "not in full possession of his faculties," - but goes on to say that he "displays sagacity and common sense."  What do these contradictions say about Herodotus' method of reporting?

4. At Dr. Ranke's : Kapuscinski says, as a foreigner  without translators,  he dreaded the Greek/Persian War more than the Congolese conflicts he was assigned to cover.  What do you think he meant by this?

5. Greek Techiniques: While in Africa, Kapuscinski concentrates not so much on the wars, but on Herodotus' technique, to learn the art of reporting. What is the difference between their techniques?  What does Kapuscinski borrow from him?

6. Do you agree with Kapucinski on technology's impact on how we communicate?  What does this say of our online communication?  Are face-to-face book clubs a better means of communicating ideas?

7.  Do you wonder why Ethiopia was of interest to the Polish Press?  Lacking funds, Kapuscinski was without translators.  How did this affect his methods of gathering information and reporting?

8.  Before Torn Apart by Dogs and Birds: "...a sinister hurricane is brewing in Herodotus' world where events are shifting to where Greece and Persia meet, where Asia and Europe meet,  to the very omphalos of the world." p.189  "omphalos"?   How often must this history repeat itself?

9. Xerxes Does Herodotus believe that  Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset no matter what?  Does Herodotus believe in predestination?

10. Oath of Athens  Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished.  This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny.  Do you agree with him?  Does Kapuscinski?  Does history repeat itself nevertheless?

Discussion Leaders: JoanK , JoanP, Barbara  

[JoanP]

"Kapuscinski interjects his thought about how we interpret reality - is this his way do you think of telling us he understands his own forays into dead ends and misleading signs because of growing up in Poland?"

Barbara, I'm not sure he's saying that...but he is definitely commenting on the differing ways we interpret reality because of what was first real to us.  Ever since Olle posted, I'm trying to look at Kapuscinski through his Polish eyes and understand how we might view history in a different way. He lived through the war, experienced what we have only read about.  Much like Herodotus, who lived and roamed where West met East.

Today we'll begin a new chapter - with the title, "Among Dead Kings and Gods"-   I find myself thinking of these the titles Kapus has chosen - and wondering just what they mean, why he selected them.  What dead kings? What gods?  What did you think when you read this title?

Herodotus and Kapuscinski are both writing about two Iranian kings or should I say, Persians...  Darius and  the Shah of Iran .  I imagine that Kapuscinski had a different opinion regarding the Shah than we do... Was the Shah a king?  How's your knowledge of history?  Maybe we can learn something together here today...what do you remember of the Shah of Iran?

[rich7]

Joan, Wikipaedia says that Shah means king.  It's actually a shortening of Shahanshah which means king of kings.

Glad you motivated me to look it up, because I always thought it was a variation of Caesar as are Tzar and Kaiser.  (Maybe I should look them up, too, before I state that with certainty.)

Rich

[JoanP]

Very interesting, Rich! I'm trying to deduce from Kapuscinski's book which period he is wrting about - the WWII years...or closer to the overthrow in the late 70's...

I found this -  
Mohammad Reza came to power during World War II after an Anglo-Soviet invasion forced the abdication of his father Reza Shah. During Mohammad Reza's reign, the Iranian oil industry was briefly nationalized under Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh before a US-backed coup d'état overturned the regime and brought back foreign oil firms, and Iran marked the anniversary of 2,500 years of continuous monarchy since the founding of the Persian Empire by Cyrus the Great

Sooo, the US backed his overthrow and supported the takeover by the Ayatollah Khomeini?  Wonder what Kapuscinski thought of this...

[Babi]

 Yes, JOANP, the tribal peoples would know little or nothing of languages in other
parts of the country. Their contact is limited. The city dwellers, tho', would be
speaking the languages prominent there. They would need to, in order to do business
and make an income.

  Is it perhaps a hopeful sign that such things as skinning one's enemies now
horrify us, where before they were accepted practices? It would be nice to think
such things could never happen today, but it has not been that long since we
discovered that a Nazi woman used human skin to make her lampshades.

 'Shah of Iran' brings to my mind the splendors of the 'Peacock Throne' and the
fabulous wealth of the Shah. As he was considered an ally, I never heard of any
of the problems of his country until after he was deposed, and I still know very
little of what it was actually like.
  Does it seem to you, as it does to me, that splendor and great displays of wealth
are more typically Eastern than Western?  We disapprove of ostentatious displays of
wealth, and those who enjoy making them seem to be generally regarded as somewhat
vulgar. This kind of mindset is bound to affect how we see these early Eastern
rulers, don't you think. It might be well to consider that their own people may
have been proud of such demonstrations of wealth and power.
 I can't help feeling sad that 2500 years of a colorful monarchy should have come to
an end because we wanted access to their oil.

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm remembering this was the time when Anwar Sadat was all over the press and Egypt was a close friend To Iran - and the revolution in Iran was more than about Oil as I remember - it was like their early Arab Spring and just like Egypt now seems to be on the brink of using Sharia law that has been the next step for many an Arab nation that over throws the long standing monarchy.

I am remembering during the Iraq war the reporters during the early months bringing up how we were now against Iran and for Iraq the very enemy to Iran that we helped Iran defeat - I guess in that part of the world everything can be seen through the eyes of oil. As I remember this was all taking place in the late 70s and involved the hostage taking that Reagen was able to release when the Iranians would not work with Carter. We were in the midst of the USSR as our arch enemy and part of all this with Iran was because the Shaw was using tactics similar to USSR with secret police to control and he had some kind of gulag but I no longer remember where. I believe our concern was he would side with USSR and like several of our wars we were trying to keep the Iron Curtain from expanding. 

[rich7]

Just a couple of small observations.

I appreciate it when an author respects his readers.  When Kapus was in the Congo he briefly referred to the area as Heart of Darkness country.  He assumed that his readers understand that he was referring to the novel by Joseph Conrad, and have read it. By using those three words, by referencing a book title, he didn't need to say any more to convey to us how he felt to be there.

What is totally foreign to me is the fear that welled up in him when two policemen were approaching him on the street in the Congo. Being brought up in, and having spent my entire life residing in the United States, my emotion when seeing policemen on the street is one of a feeling of enhanced safety and security.  I know it's not that way in many third world countries, but why?

Rich

[rich7]

Just "Googled" Joseph Conrad and learned that he, also, was a Pole.

From Wikipaedia:
Joseph Conrad (born Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski;[1]:11-12 3 December 1857  – 3 August 1924) was a Polish author who wrote in English after settling in England. He was granted British nationality in 1886, but always considered himself a Pole.[note 1]

Interesting, no?

Rich

[JoanP]

Yes, that is interesting, Rich!
Lately, ever since Olle posted, I've been looking at Kapuscinski's Polish background - trying to see the events he describes through his eyes,  considering his background. Before that, I'd been thinking of Kapuscinski in terms of the WEST -  He does seem to have a fear of those in authority - which as you say, is difficult for an American to understand.  Sometimes he seems almost childlike in the way he trusts strangers...I'm thinking of the person who guided him to the top of the minaret and robbed him of his wallet.  I was surprised at this naivete.  He could have been killed.  But it's the fear of those in authority, the fear that they might deport him...or worse.

Yesterday, after reading your posts, I googled Poland and Tehran - because I felt we were considering the Shah and the Ayatollah from an American viewpoint...  Here's something I found interesting...

"After the division of Poland by Germany and Russia in September 1939, Stalin ordered the deportation of supposedly anti-Soviet elements to labour camps across the Soviet Union.
 Estimates of numbers of the deported range between 330,000 and over 1 million.
 However, when Hitler attacked his Soviet ally in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa, Stalin had to turn to Great Britain – and by default its Polish ally – for support.
 
An amnesty was declared, and General Wladyslaw Anders, one of the thousands of Polish internees in the Soviet Union, was allowed to raise an army from among the prisoners.
 The so-called Polish Second Corps journeyed to Iran, where it regrouped and joined the fight against the Nazis, as part of the British 8th Army.
 Among the 120,000 that made it to Iran were about 43,000 civilians, including 15,000 children"

The Polish have first hand knowledge of Iran.  Kapuscinski is trusting of the people, maybe some are friends/relatives - but fears the authorities. http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/114326,Polish-delegation-commemorates-wartime-exodus-to-Iran=

[JoanP]

I admit to having a bit of trouble...confusing time lines and places.  Sometimes he's in Tehran, in Ethiopia, or the Congo...sometimes it's 1960 and then he jumps ahead to 1979.  Does this confuse anyone else?  

When he skipped ahead to the overthrow of the Shah and Khomeini's takeover, I was startled at the similarity of this man to the Persian kings we've been reading about - those described by Herodotus...

"Khomeini has been criticized for these acts and for human rights violations of Iranians; he has been accused of pursuing a mass campaign of torture, rape, and execution against political opponents as well as their families, close friends, and anyone who was accused of insufficient Islamic behavior (including Bahai's and Jews), resulting in the deaths of thousands of men, women, and children, who were usually tried in secret kangaroo courts run by hard line clerics, as well as in 1988, when he ordered the execution of 30,000 political prisoners."  

I'm wondering if the Polish Press had Kapuscinski in Tehran at this time... It seems wherever there is rebellion, fighting, danger, they dispatch Kapus.  We don't know much about him, do we?  Did he have a wife and family back in Poland, waiting for word from him?

   Can't you see Kapuscinski and Herodotus coming closer together in their reporting - and their desire to learn how such tyrants get control over so many to carry out these horrendous acts.

[Frybabe]

Interesting, JoanP. I didn't know about the Iran/Pole connections. I was checking on a time line for his trips. He was in India in 1956, and in China and Japan in 1957, so he was not in those countries for very long. He first visited Africa during the winter of 1959-60, visiting not Egypt, but the West African countries of Niger, Ghana and Benin. He married a doctor in 1953; his daughter was born in 1953.

Writing in the Oct 1, 2007 issue of The Nation, Author Andrew Rice wrote of K thusly: "Ultimately, Kapuściński sees the world as composed of tribes, and for all his travels among them, he doesn't believe that they can ever really communicate with one another"  We can see some of that in K's narrative, can't we? In the short time that K had in India and China, this was certainly the case. But what of the long term? Things still do get lost in translation don't they?

[JoanK]

"What is totally foreign to me is the fear that welled up in him when two policemen were approaching him on the street in the Congo."

This told me more about his life in Poland than anything else he had written. Imagine growing up and living with that fear. I thought when I read it that that was his way of indirectly criticizing his country without appearing to do so: only someone who lived in an oppressive society would react so.

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow the Polish activity in the world that we did not hear about - the only thing I can remember after WWII was the Solidarity rebellion becoming independent of Russia when Wałęsa received the Noble but that was later than all this - Just had no idea about the Polish connection -

JoanP I am confused are you saying Hitler asked Great Britain for help - was this before or after WWII

[JoanP]

Barbara...from the link provided here earlier yesterday:

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/114326,Polish-delegation-commemorates-wartime-exodus-to-Iran=

"A Polish delegation is taking part in commemorations in Tehran on Friday, marking the wartime exodus of some 120,000 Poles to Iran seventy years ago after being freed from Soviet captivity.

Today's tributes will take place at the Polish cemetery of Dulab, where some 1892 Poles were laid to rest, largely owing to health problems caused by the period in Soviet labour camps.
 All in all, over 2900 Poles died in Iran after the journey from the Soviet Union.
 “Had it not been for the huge help given by the Iranian people, many more Poles would probably have died,” said Dr Jan Ciechanowski, leader of the Polish delegation, in an interview with Polish Radio.
 “Therefore we must thank the Iranian people for the support and care they showed, which helped thousands of Poles who had found themselves in a tragic situation.
 
“Remembrance of this is our duty,” he stressed.
 
Ciechanowski, who is head of the state-backed Office for Combatants and Victims of Oppression, noted that the trip is also an opportunity to pay tribute to the entire 120,000 Poles who came to Iran seventy years ago.
 After the division of Poland by Germany and Russia in September 1939, Stalin ordered the deportation of supposedly anti-Soviet elements to labour camps across the Soviet Union.
Estimates of numbers of the deported range between 330,000 and over 1 million.
 
However, when Hitler attacked his Soviet ally in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa, Stalin had to turn to Great Britain – and by default its Polish ally – for support.
An amnesty was declared, and General Wladyslaw Anders, one of the thousands of Polish internees in the Soviet Union, was allowed to raise an army from among the prisoners.
The so-called Polish Second Corps journeyed to Iran, where it regrouped and joined the fight against the Nazis, as part of the British 8th Army.
Among the 120,000 that made it to Iran were about 43,000 civilians, including 15,000 children. "

[JoanP]

Fry, thank you so much for providing more information on Kapuscinski.  So he was married...with a baby daughter when his editor first sent him "across the border" to India in the mid 50's!  Didn't you get the feeling that he was unattached, up for any assignment, even to dangerous places in the middle of great conflict?  He seems happiest in Africa.  I'm getting the impression that he becomes closer to Herodotus here.  You don't see him in Egypt on the time line you are looking at?  I'm really surprised at that.  Herodotus is captivated with Egypt - you'd think that Kapuscinski would be too.  Maybe the Polish Press was not interested in sending him there - not newsworthy enough?

"Ultimately, Kapuściński sees the world as composed of tribes, and for all his travels among them, he doesn't believe that they can ever really communicate with one another"

Hmm...without COMMUNICATION, Kapuscinski seems to offer little hope for peace in the world - as he and Herodotus search to find the causes of war...
Will History keep repeating itself?

[JoanP]

"But after reading about Persepolis, I wish I could have stood there in the dawn with JK, and see and feel the beauty of something so impressive and still so immensely beautiful." Olle

Where's Olle? Hopefully his computer isn't acting up again.  I remembered the earlier comment of his when reading about the ruins of Persepolis.a
Kapuscinski gets us thinking though, about the human suffering involved.  He asks: "Could these wonders have come into being without that suffering?"
And seems to conclude with this thought - "And the only thing that never changes is beauty itself and the need for it that dwells within us."

How did you understand  his reaction  as he wonders how such a cruel, heartless man like Darius could be capable of creating something as beautiful as Persepolis, "this city of dead kings and forgotten gods."   Is he saying the most beautiful monuments to the past were built on the backs of slaves - and aren't we fortunate to have them to marvel at today?

[Frybabe]

JoanP, I got the impression that K was in Egypt at some point later, but not early on.

I am getting the impression that many of his reporter/author colleagues have a negative view of K as someone who tells half-truths and indulges in self-puffery. He conveys a good feel and sympathy for of the downtrodden and oppressed, but he gets details wrong (deliberate or otherwise?). The Andrew Rice I quoted earlier doesn't seem to like him at all. He considers this book we are now reading a "...veiled apologia for his own failings as a reporter." So, are all these critics being overly critical, or, are they on to something. Here is a review of several of his books, but not this one, in case you are interested. http://www.richardwebster.net/johnryle.html I think these would actually be better reading in the wrap up after we are done, but I am likely to forget it by then. Sigh!

Even so, I am enjoying the book. Mostly what I see in his writing are gaps in detail, like the narrative is not fully fleshed out.

[Babi]

RICH, JOANK, JOANP, & FRYBABE: All of you have certainly been fleshing out
the backgrounds for me. So much information that clarifies what has been
happening,..and why. My thanks to you all.

  Remember where K said, "I am by nature quite credulous, to the point even of regarding suspicions not as a manifestation of reason but as a character flaw."  Do you think his experience at the railless minaret changed that?   I know I have always gone on the assumption that people are good people until they prove differently.  But I would have that a professional reporter/journalist would be less trusting.

  Herodutus writes of the Babylonian rebellion against a new king, Darius. K quotes him as saying, "they had spent the whole troubled period of the Magus' rule...getting ready for  a siege, and  somehow nobody had noticed that they were doing so."    Well, I can see how that could happen. I am finding it very hard, tho', to believe Herodotus story that the rebels mudered all the women, with the exception of their mothers and one woman of their choosing (can't leave the men without a bedmate!),  in order to husband their resources.  Their daughters, even?@!  This sounds to me more like the sort of 'monsters' propaganda that one often sees about the enemy in times of war.  Then, reading the posts above on
the horrors perpetrated centuries later by the Ayatollah, I have to wonder if it Herodotus'
reports was also true.

    The account of the Scythian war I find more believable.  More of this seems to be 'eye-witness'  and less 'I was told'.  I looked up Scythians and found this article. There is a second page which includes a beautiful example of the "beautiful metal artifacts" they left.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/530361/Scythian/530361yblinks/Year-in-Review-Links
  Also,  I was quite surprised to learn that these people were originally of Iranian stock. Their battle strategy was brilliant; lead them in a merry chase all over the country, into regions where they could not forage, and chip away at their forces piecemeal in true guerrilla style. Darius, being brighter than some later power greedy conquerors,  eventually retreated.  The man was power-hungry and greedy,..but not stupid.

[Frybabe]

K relates on p158 the Herodotus' account of beginnings of Greco-Persian war. At the end of Scene 2, Darius has one of his servants say at each meal "Master, remember the Athenians." It immediately brought to mind Cato instigating war with Carthage every chance he got. He incorporated  "Carthago delenda est" (Carthage must be destroyed) into many of his speeches.

[Jonathan]

The book is growing on me, but it definitly has me wanting to know more. More about the author, and more about his other wrtings. And of course, more about Herodotus. Thanks, ever so much, Frybabe for the link to the TLS review in your post. That fills many blanks.

Kapuscinski says surprisingly little in our book about his vast experience and his extensive travels. I feel that he is deliberately restraining himself in that area for fear of upstaging Herodotus. I'm enjoying his intense interest in Herodotus and his amazing 'history'.

'Monsieur, avez vous une cigarette, sil-vous-plait?'

What a bizarre ending to the tale of the two policemen. Such a build-up to a case and cause for fear ending with such politeness.

But isn't it a day of history in Washington? What an impressive ceremony. I did get a chuckle of the poet's vision of America coming to their windows to greet the new day...with a yawn!!!

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks JoanP for clearing that up for me - I do not know If I misread or what but your post made the difference. - Thanks also for sharing that great photo of ancient Persepolis


I had no clue this connection between Iran and Poland - we need a few reporters to read this book to connect the historical dots that may allow them to report from a deeper understanding rather than riling up their audience with only part of a story.

There is that new popular novel folks are buying about a mother and son reading all these books as she nears the end of her life - looks like rather than being pointed because of end of life this book certainly has encouraged more and more reading that is filling our shelves -
 
Back outside before the sun sets - trees were trimmed that were too close over the roof and now we, my son and I are cutting and stacking the limbs and piling the smaller branches - live oak so filled with leaves - into his truck and what does not fit we are piling in the back where the deer like to spend time until his next trip. I will sleep tonight...

[JoanK]

"But isn't it a day of history in Washington?"   

I must confess all those pictures of Washington DC made me homesick. I wouldn't have grown up in any other city. It's a beautiful city to live in (except for the weather, which is awful). And being surrounded by historical buildings, events, and people adds something to life I miss. I think it makes you more aware of history.

Although, I must confess that the last inaugeration I attended in person was Truman's. I was in the White house rose garden watching as then President Clinton greeted Nelson Mandela for the first time as a head of state. And in college, we used to rent canoes and watch the Capitol Fourth from the river. And riding to work every day past the Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials, seeing the Capitol and Washington memorial while going to lunch: you stop noticing them, but one day you look up and there they are. Oh!

[JoanP]

Such memories, JoanK! A good thing the inaugural was yesterday,wasn't it?  - those marching bands and dancing girls wouldn't have been able to stand this morning's temperatures in those scanty costumes ...a few minutes ago I noticed the temp. was 21 degrees...and I heard it's not supposed to reach the freezing point for the next five days...Need to bundle up for the first time this winter this morning!

Fry - an interesting link and comments you posted yesterday..."I am getting the impression that many of his reporter/author colleagues have a negative view of K as someone who tells half-truths" - "he gets details wrong (deliberate or otherwise?)".  Is it a coincidence that the same has been said of Herodotus - some have called him "Father of Liars" for this very same reason?

I read through the link you provided -  http://www.richardwebster.net/johnryle.html - and agree that some of Kapuscinski's other novels would have been good choices...BUT.  I confess that the real attraction to Travels with Herodotus   - was the chance to delve into Herodotus' Histories and learn something about this man whose name was the only thing I knew about him before we began.

From the same article, I was also interested to read -
"IN A CAREER extending over four decades, Ryszard Kapuściński has published book-length accounts of his homeland, Poland, of travels in Iran and the former Soviet Union, and a collection of reportage from third-world countries including Honduras, El Salvador, Chile and Bolivia. His principal subject, however, from early in his working life, has been Africa."

I think it was in Africa where his technique becomes more like that of Herodotus.  Without translators, without access to printed matter, Kapuscinski relies on more primitive methods of reporting...observation.  Perhaps this is the reason both men have been accused of "telling half truths" and "getting details wrong".  Isn't it a matter of whom the reporter is observing - getting those details from?   Sometimes I think these details are the only way to arrive at  truth.  Like photographs.  Pictures don't lie.  Am I being too defensive of Kapus. methods of reporting?

 We're told in the chapter,  Greek Techiniques that while in Africa, "Kapuscinski concentrates not so much on the wars, but on Herodotus' technique, to learn the art of reporting."[/b]  What does Kapuscinski borrow from him?  Do you see him changing?


  

[Babi]

  Greeting the dawn does appear with surprising frequency in the religion of
man peoples, tho'.  An Easter 'Sunrise Service' is very popular here; people
seem to find it meanngful and emotional. 'The dawn of a new day', peaceful
and hopeful. Native aboriginal tribes lifting a new born baby toward the sky
at dawn, introducing the baby, presumably, to a symbol of their god. Or
perhaps introducing the baby to light and life.

  The question of the accuracy of both Herodotus and K is very hard to determine,
or perhaps it would be better to say the source or cause of inaccuracies is hard to
pinpoint.  Remember when K wrote,  "I am by nature quite credulous.."?  It is a
surprisingly frank admission from a reporter, and may be the key to the problem.
Perhaps Herodotus was also prepared to believe most anything someone told him?

[rich7]

Joan P Just noticed your included photo of Persepolis and Googled more for myself.  A beautiful place built around 500BCE.  I hope some day to see it in person. 

Somehow the images remind me of a line once written about the ancient city of Petrus:  "A rose-red city half as old as time."  I forget who wrote those words.

Being "half as old as time," myself, the chances are getting slimmer that I'll get to see either city.

Rich

[Olle]

It is kind of fantastic to read all witty comments about JK and Herodotus. It seems that we find different capacities in both protagonists and yet they merge into one. I won't believe that neither of them are conspirators in the meaning of showing off themselves. 
Truth or lies? What ever. In the long run it is a very interesting story and we can never really believe everything edited.
An old saying goes "Truth is in the eye of the beholder" so it is up to us to accept it or not. Not even Herodotus could believe everything, thus his saying "as I've learned/heard".
About Africa, you can easily say that Europe has much to be ashamed of. The worst thing is that we are still going on. And from the East, China is coming to "help" poor African nations. "Money makes the world go round."

olle

[JoanP]

"Truth is in the eye of the beholder" so it is up to us to accept it or not." Olle

Oh, I agree, Olle.  When in Africa during the revolution, Kapucinski sees to have no choice but to write about what he sees.  No other sources to check and verify.  He's turning into Herodotus in his reporting.

Babi...It seems Kapus could have hung out at Doctor Ranke's and read his books as he waits for a means of escape.  (He's not able to communicate with his news agency, so he has no press assignment. - He even thinks they've forgotten he's here.  OR, he can pick up cues from Herodotus...and interact with the tribes that pass through, "drifting and swaying"  from one place to another.  He begins to write down what he sees - and what they are able to communicate to him.  I can see where he might be getting a skewed version of the revolt...but he seems to be in the same boat with Herodotus, doesn't he?

[JoanP]

Rich - thanks for mentioning that poem... I found it for you - the lines you remember are quoted more than the rest of the poem to describe  the city of Petra...

Petra is an Arabian historical and archaeological city in the Jordanian governorate of Ma'an, that is famous for its rock-cut architecture and water conduit system.

Petra
by John William Burgon (1845)

"It seems no work of Man's creative hand,
By labor wrought as wavering fancy planned;
But from the rock as if by magic grown,
Eternal, silent, beautiful, alone!
Not virgin-white like that old Doric shrine,
Where erst Athena held her rites divine;
Not saintly-grey, like many a minster fane,
That crowns the hill and consecrates the plain;
But rose-red as if the blush of dawn,
That first beheld them were not yet withdrawn;
The hues of youth upon a brow of woe,
Which Man deemed old two thousand years ago.
Match me such marvel save in Eastern clime,
A rose-red city half as old as time. "

I'm not sure I'll ever look at these breathtaking achievements of the past without remembering and picturing the torture, the whips -  as slaves moved rock to create the "beauty" we so admire today.  I'm glad they survived, but I think it's important to remember at what cost.

[Jonathan]

I can't imagine anything more dazzling than the Washington Memorial catching the first rays of the sun, just as the first part of the U.S.A. to greet the rising sun is Mt. Washington in New Hampshire. So I have heard, as Herodotus would say.

Kapuscinski finds his favorite historian both informative and provocative. K has much to say, at the end of his book, about the nature of history, how it is fashioned and refashioned, lived and relived in a world without boundarys. By those with open and imaginative minds.

[BarbStAubrey]

I like the quote that Ollie shared - "Truth is in the eye of the beholder" because over and over we are offered history and even current reporting from the perspective of who is doing the writing and for sure we have realized history is told through the eyes of the victors often adding details and glory that stretch truth - condemning the loosers based on the victors views of why the looser was fighting.

I see the stories in The Histories as the impressions of Herodotus and so it could be that Kapuscinski is not sharing specific facts as much as his impressions. When Kapuscinski first flies over the Nile he never mentions but isn't that about the time the huge Aswan Dam was started?

I wonder if the practice of communing with the gods or using various means like throwing feathers, or rocks or ruins to learn your fate is believing in predestination or simply trying to ally fears by appealing to a power they see evidenced in nature that makes them believe in a great power of the gods?

I guess I am wondering if predestination is another of those words that come from our cultural religion just as those who did not believe in the Trinity were called Heretics.  I am thinking particularly of Taoism which divines the course of life with I Ching. When it comes down to it, praying would be communing with God requesting wisdom and alteration of the future for our benefit - If we believe we must make a special invocation to alter the future is that our assuming the future is set - do we basically believe in predestination?

One thing I remember reading a few years ago that stayed with me is that the Greek gods were fashioned after human beings where as, the one god of Jews and Christians has none of the human foibles of the Greek gods. And yet, we worry if we are pleasing or displeasing this God and ask for this God's assistance to alter the future. Maybe we are all the same simply with different names for different behavior.

[Frybabe]

I think with his Congo experience we start to see a more accomplished, more comfortable traveler. He doesn't seem to be so upset about not being able to speak the language (possibly because a lot of Africans also spoke French?). What a nasty war and aftermath to be in the middle of, yet he seems more at ease there than in China or India where I could almost feel his self-conscious panic.

[rich7]

Joan p.  Thanks for the fill-in of the Petrus information.  So it was William Burgon who wrote those words.

Different subject:  Herodotus:  "I have no idea why the earth - which is, after all, single - has three separate names (each of which is the name of a woman)..."

Why is the earth always feminine in name?  Even in English we refer to her as "Mother Earth."  Is it because life springs from the earth?  Why do we assign gender to things?  Why do Germans swear allegiance to the fatherland, and Russians go to war to defend the motherland?

I ask these questions rhetorically; no one need necessarily answer, and these questions will not be on the final exam.

Rich

[BarbStAubrey]

I thought it was more about German Fatherland political party before WWII  - Since WWII Germans no longer refer to their nation as the Fatherland, which makes me think it was a political definition more than coming from an ancient concept of birth and rebirth observed in nature. - I do know that the word Germany is a masculine noun - as we have Uncle Sam but we do not make a big deal in our language if a noun is masculine or feminine - wonder if that is part of the difference in how language refers to motherland or fatherland as either a feminine or masculine noun - Come to think of it there is father time

[Babi]

 I had missed the bit where K is unable to communicate with his news
agency, JOANK. It's quite reasonable to suppose that he would want to at least write down what he sees. And of course, what he is told would depend on which side the speaker is on. 'Skewed', no doubt, but all he's got.  Thanks for clarifying that for me.

 We can't really see very far into our future, obviously. So we wouldn't be asking for 'alteration' of it except with immediate circumstances...like high risk scheduled surgery or serious illness. Even then, what we are really asking for is a good outcome.
  I quit telling God what I wanted him to do long ago, BARB.  I figured out, clever me, that He knows the situation far better than I do, knows what would be best for me...which I may not....and all-in-all, really doesn't need any advice from me. It is so much simpler, and more reasonable, to simply place it all in His hands and leave it there. Oh, and say 'Thank You!' for every good thing that happens.  A really restful approach to life, I find. 

[JoanP]

"I think with his Congo experience we start to see a more accomplished, more comfortable traveler. He doesn't seem to be so upset about not being able to speak the language"  Frybabe

Do you think this is because Kapus is learning Herodotus' technique - imitating him, he finds he is able to communicate and understand more than through language.  While holed up at Dr. Ranke's place in the summer of 1960, he finds himself among many fugitives who have no common language.  He writes that during this time of tribal strife, everyone is a fugitive.
At the same time he reads Herodotus oral communication...

"Not only words matter, but more frequently, what is communicated wordlessly- facial expressions, hand gestures, body movement...  Direct contact, no only listening to what they say, but watching how they say it, how they act as they speak."

It seems that it is here in the Congo that Kapuscinski learns this lesson from Herodotus and begins to understand how to communicate, even though he doesn't understand the words being used.

"No problem" - the only two words K and his driver had in common.  I really got a kick out of their exchanges.

[JoanP]

I think I'm going to express a bit of heresy concerning our book discussions here on SeniorLearn while quoting Kapuscinski's thoughts on communicating, using his exchanges with Negusi as an example.  Would love to hear your reaction to what he has written!

"There are many methods of conversation.  Everything speaks:the expression of the face and eyes, the gestures of the hand and the movements of the body, the vibrations which the latter send out, his clothing and the way it is worn...dozens of other transmitters, amplifiers and mufflers..."

OK, here's the part that really got me thinking-

"Technology, which reduces human exchange to an electronic signal, impoverishes and mutes the nonverbal language with which, when we are together in close proximity, we continuually and unconsciously  communicate.  This unspoken gesture is more sincere and genuine than the spoken or written one..."

What does this say of our online communication?  Are face-to-face book clubs a better means of communicating ideas?  I'd really like to hear what you have to say about communicating on the Internet in the light of what Kapuscinski has found in a lifetime of communicating with others...

[rich7]

Joan P.  I, too, liked the exchange between Kapus and his driver.  A great deal of information got exchanged using just the words "problem" or "no problem."

I'm surprised that nowhere does Kapus use the words "body language," although he goes to great lengths describing what we know as simply body language.  I think it may be due to English not being his strongest asset, especially its colloquialisms.  He does make reference to what he calls the Anglophone's useage of the words "personal chemistry," but that doesn't hit as close to the mark as "body language."

But, I have to remember that he is writing in Polish, and there likely is no two-word equivalent.

Rich

[rich7]

Joan, To your other comment and question:

"Technology, which reduces human exchange to an electronic signal, impoverishes and mutes the nonverbal language with which, when we are together in close proximity, we continuually and unconsciously  communicate.  This unspoken gesture is more sincere and genuine than the spoken or written one..."

I find electronic communication more frustrating and challenging than face-to-face verbal conversation.  What you can say with a smile and a wink in person, probably will be misconstrued in an e-mail.

I know that I am often misunderstood in electronic communication.  I guess that speaks to my skill (or lack thereof) with words. 

Rich

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Rich and JoanP my experience is similar - not sure if it is the words chosen so much as sarcasm irony humor all have a style that some write naturally but others have to learn - not taking more than required classes in English and no Writing classes these are skills I only realize after the fact they are not easy to pull off. I am also aware we read in our own voice so that we can easily be reading, even aloud, differently than the speakers voice.

However, I must say traveling and using body language can also be a landmine - some cultures use their bodies differently - I realized that if I didn't have at least some high school French I would have been at a loss because the use of body language, in especially Paris made me think every one was annoyed or quarreling with each other.

[Frybabe]

I'm reading some of K's quotes from Herodotus on his investigations 1) talking about winged snakes and the bones he saw when he went to investigate (p181), and 2) the Neurians reputed ability to change into wolves (p182).

I am going to have to find the info on the flying snake bones to see the rest of the passage. I'd love to know what he thought. If so, I wonder what today's fossil hunters might have made of it. As far as the Neurians are concerned, it appears that the Werewolf mythology is older that I thought. Ah, but I forgot about Zeus turning Lycaon into a wolf. Herodotus believes the general area where the Neurians were located points toward the today's Ukraine and Belarus.