Travels with Herodotus by Ryszard Kapuscinski

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski

"We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC.  And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated.        Sara Wheeler  The Guardian

                                                                                                                            

Discussion Schedule: Jan. 4-12     Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World Jan. 13-18     Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings Jan. 19-25    Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes         Jan. 26         Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness

For Your Consideration
January 26-31
"Time Vanishes" - "We Stand in Darkness"

Time Vanishes
1.  Kapucinski describes Herodotus' his methods - not simply recording a history of dynasties and kings but the life of simple people, religious beliefs, disasters. Does this method seem to work for Kapuscinski?

2. "One must read Herodotus' book, and every great book repeatedly - each reading reveals another layer."  Do you agree with the importance of rereading?  Ah, but do you do it?

The Desert and the Sea p.221
3. What convinced Kapuscinski to put aside The Histories to fly to Algiers, without knowing the ambassador's reason for sending him, and without notifying his superiors at the Press Agency?  What does this say about Kapuscinski's priorities?  Was he the first to break the news of the military coup in Algiers?

4. How did this coup represent the two great conflicts of the contemporary world, between France and the colony of Algeria, between Islamic fundamentalism and modernity?  Are these the same struggles we are reading about in today's news?

Black is Beautiful
5. Cheih Anta Diop, the Sengalese Historian in the 50's maintained  European and Western culture had beginnings in Africa. Was he the first to point to Herodotus, who had argued many elements of Greek culture came from Egypt and Libya.  What effect did Richard Wright's Black Power have on this theory when he concluded  he concluded on his trip to Ghana that  they were African, he, American - total strangers, separated by language barrier, nothing in common.  Do you remember this?  

6. "From the island of Goree, the mass abduction of as many as 20 million slaves depopulated the continent."  -Egyptian culture had fascinated Herodotus.  Kapuscinski wonders if Herodotus had slaves. Why?

Scenes of Passion and Prudence

7. Did the final sentence in the Histories indicate that the Persian threat is still alive and well today?

Herodotus' Discovery

8.  According to Kapuscinski, what are the traits of a good reporter?  How does he compare himself to Herodotus?   Does Kapuscinski seem to have the same passion and drive?

9. What does Kapuscinski regard as  Herodotus' most important discovery?

 We Stand in Darkness, Surrounded by Light

 10. What draws Herodotus  to the road, away from home? Where is his home?  Kapuscinski describes such a reporter like Herodotus as unhappy and lonely, a man who does not grow attached to anything."  Is Kapuscinski describing himself?   Read more about Kapuscinski's home life and  wife in Warsaw

Finally, please share your observations on the many points made in the last chapter of the book.

Discussion Leaders: JoanK , JoanP, Barbara  

[JoanP]

Mmm- there must be some advantages to participation in online  book discussion as difficult as it is to communicate like this - or we wouldn't be here..
Barb, do you think those little emoticons were purposely put above the reply box - a  way to express - facial expressions, "body language"?  

[Jonathan]

Interesting thoughts in all your posts. But of course reflecting on all the strange 'history' we're getting would provoke koleidascopic conclusions.

Babi, I'm impressed by your answer to dealing with the future. Isn't it pathetic to read about the absolute king of a vast empire frightened by his unruly mind. Perplexed by his dreams. Frightened by the phantoms in his head. Himself the destiny of millions, but uncertain of his own.

[Jonathan]

I was talking to my financial adviser this afternoon, when I realized he and our author must have been compatriots. Sure enough. What could he tell me about Kapuscinski?  He got carried away in his enthusiasm. For many years K's books just flew off the shelf as soon as they came out. His readers really felt they were getting the whole story on the big, wide world out there. 'Kapus', he told me, means cabbage. The whole name suggests cabbage-related. It seems there is a very interesting life we're hearing about.

[Jonathan]

problem/no problem....I never realized how meanigful they can be, depending on the circumstances.

[BarbStAubrey]

emoticons can work however, among those I know and even those I newly meet that live around here - we do a lot of sincere sounding deadpan dialog when we are pulling someones leg - if you show a wink or something then the message is lost as if a joke but if left as a deadpan reaction it takes awhile - sometime weeks and they get it - I am so used to talking that way among friends and acquaintances and just cannot put it in writing - most folks reading see it as a serious statement and then when trying to share something I feel like my view requires all sorts of back up and deeper information so it gets verbose - one of these days I need to get serious about taking a writing class.

I have a friend who did make some change in her writing style by hand copying a couple of books by two authors whose work she admires - she said she learned a lot.

With all Kapuscinski's retelling of ancient history and sharing what he sees and hears during his travels this book is reminding more of a memoir as he compares and we see connections to life in Poland.

I am wondering - never did take Greek but are The Histories the only account we have of life or is it all piecemeal from Homer to those who relate the various wars. Was it The Histories that guided the early archaeologists? Trying to figure out how Herodotus fits into giving us a picture of these ancients.  

[Jonathan]

One hears of electronic devices that will read the 'chemistry' of people in ones vicinity. Talk about reading others and finding affinity!

[JoanP]

Ok, will give Technology a chance to catch up, Jonathan...to figure out my chemistry - that makes me uncomfortable...don't quite know why.

Barbara - I don't have an answer to your question - understood that Herodotus was the first to record more than dates and dynasties, was more interested in the people. They were the ones he chatted with around the fire and then wrote about in hIs Histories He did write about the kings, yes...but always included the people these kings cruelly treated.

By the way, did it seem that the sadistic and cruel kings were ALL from the East?  That was the impression I came away with. Did I overlook others from the West?

If Herodotus was the first...who else do we know of?  Thucydides comes to mind.  Here's a link that compares the two..
http://www.studentsfriend.com/

The "Father  of Scientific History" - It seems Thucydides recorded only details he could verify...events that happened during his lifetime...

"Herodotus explored centuries of contacts between Ancient Greece and the Persian Empire, culminating in the Persian Wars of the early 5th century BC.".

[Babi]

 Fascinating question, JOANP. So much is communicated by the 'nonverbal' body
language. More, I think, than most of us realize. Consider how  much we can
tell about a person from the moment they walk into a room, before a word is
said. In our book discussions here, I think we have a group of people who are
well able to express their feelings as well as their thoughts. In modern 'texting'
however, most of that is lost. The 'communication' is incomplete and could be
wholly misunderstood.  

 On Q. #4, I understood K to mean he was more "absorbed" in Herodotus' history
than in the events around him, possibly because he was finding so little opportunity
to communicate the current events to his office. K is assigned to the Congo during
the chaotic period when the Belgians were leaving, and civil war was breaking out
everywhere over who was going to be in power next.  It was a dangerous time, and K
has the good sense to be scared.  
 Even more, tho', he is perceiving "a huge swath of world history, which already set us against one another many centuries ago."  He sees the  current events as the result of  generations of slave trade and cruelty, passed on through tribal stories. The people of the Congo identify very closely with their tribes, and the strongest tribes challenge one another for control of their future.

  When you get right down to it,  I believe K is at heart more of an historian than
a reporter.  I see this comment as confirmation of that impression: "I feel anger and
helplessness--by turns familiar states of mind in this line of work-- in which  so
much time is given over to fruitless waiting for a way to communicate with one's country
and with the world."

[JoanP]

Babi, I'll bet Kapuscinski is weary of war and rebellion in the world...it should have been over centuries ago.  Would have been, if men had learned from what Herodotus had set down -  "Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished.  This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny."   
History DOES repeat itself, doesn't it?

In the beginning, Herodotus set out to find the reasons man goes to war. So what did he learn?   His Histories end with the last four books describing the final conflicts at the place where Greece and Persia meet - "the very omphalos  of the world.  I had to look up that word.  Weren't you struck by the fact that East and West is at it again in this exact same area?  I was.

[rich7]

Omphalos.  Ha! Now I feel better.  I had to look it up, too.

Now, the trick is to figure out a way to work the word into polite dinner conversation.

Rich

[BarbStAubrey]

  I guess you will need this to wear to that dinner - and to make it really work it appears you need two sitting eagles, one for each shoulder

[Frybabe]

Okay, I'll bite. What is it? The decoration looks like a representation of stringed beads.

[Babi]

 It would be a bit difficult, RICH.  Omphalos refers to the navel, so unless you just recently
had a birth in the family, and wanted to impress the dinner guests with your erudition,
it is hard to work into a conversation.  The use of the word to describe that area where
Greece and Persia meet suggests that they considered it the 'birthplace' of their civilization.
   I assume the picture BARB posted is one of the religous emblems called 'omphalos'.
Somewhat egg-like, isn't it?   

[rich7]

There is a theory, popular among creationists (As opposed to evolutionists) called the Omphalos Hypothesis.  Subscribers to this hypothesis believe that God created the earth 6000 years ago, but He took pains to make it look much older.  The Omphalos Hypothesis supposedly explains why the earth is stratified in layers and trees have rings, and most importantly, why Adam and Eve would have navels. Get the connection to the word omphalos?

The above information was obtained from Wikipaedia, I was not aware of the Omphalos Hypothesis before this morning.

Rich

 

[Jonathan]

I can't believe that God would try to deceive us. Omp Hyp puts to much magic into the universe. Might as well go along with the Hindu philosophy that has all  the world a mirage. Except for the Self. Which in reality is the most doubtful of all.

Do you really think, JoanP, that Kapuscinski might get weary of war and rebellion? Better make it a small bet. After all reporting the action was his living. And doing that he was, as Babi suggests, 'more of an historian than a reporter. He must have had an exciting time telling the folks back home of the life beyond their borders. I managed to get a hold of his SHAH OF SHAHS. It's a well told tale of the Iranian revolution. It brought back a lot of memories of the cruel Shah trying to Westernize his country, and sent packing for his trouble and being replaced by the Ayatollah. Don't we all remember how the Shah wandered the world, with no one willing to take him in? Naturally Kapuscinski adds a lot of current and historical politics into his story.

Many reasons for war. Ambition is only one. The future looks bright, if the post in the Womens' Issue forum is correct. The poster suggests that women too are out for glory and all the perks to be found in battle.

[BarbStAubrey]

There is so many myths in different cultures as to the center of the earth or the beginning of time or the location of the Garden of Paradise - are we sitting on a turtle or a blink of an eye - At the heart of the Omphalos is a Western approach to a oneness which, for want of a better explanation, is Zen.

The stone was assumed to be in the temple as the Cosmic center - a place of communication between earth, all birth, represented often as a mountain or island rising from the waters chaos, as a meeting place of heaven, earth and the gods.

The Greeks grave marker (a mound of earth or a stone) was the earth altar upon which sacrifices to the dead were made and, like other earth altars, it was called the Omphalos, “the navel” of the earth. The one spoken of by Herodotus has the story that Zeus released two eagles, one from the east, the other from the west, and caused them to fly toward the center. They met at the future site of Delphi, and the spot was marked by a stone called the omphalos (navel), which was later housed in the Temple of Apollo

Many a romance novel that involves Arabs and Knights talk about a baetylus - In ancient Greek religion, a sacred stone or pillar. A Semitic word. Numerous holy, or fetish, stones existed in antiquity, generally attached to the cult of some particular god and looked upon as his abiding place or symbol. The most famous being the Omphalos in Delphi that connects to a umbilical cord that runs back through time and carries the concept of 'all birth' to include motherhood, pregnancy - which explains how Dedalus (ah Richard Burton) in Joyce's Odyssey imagines the umbilical cord as a telephone cord that will allow him to call back to Eden.

[JoanP]

Rich, I came in this morning to warn you about gazing at that omphalous at formal dinner parties - other guests would think you were bored with the conversation.  Then I saw Barbara's graphic...and decided to wait for further explanation.   Do you think that Herodotus used the word in his Histories?  It is a Greek word - I wouldn't be at all surprised.  Or was it Kapuscinski's?  It feels more like Herodotus's usage.

I have to keep reminding myself that both of these books are NON-Fiction - Herodotus left us something so valuable, while attempting to leave a true acount of life during the time when no one else was keeping a record.

"Many reasons for war. Ambition is only one."  Jonathan, I think that Herodotus was trying to seek out the reasons for war, hoping that once found, war would not be repeated.  In the end, didn't he conclude that as long as there are ambitious men in the world, there will always be war.  Not a very positive report comes out of his "research."

So the war with the Greeks is over.  What really struck me were the last lines in the last book of Herodotus'  Histories -

"Since Zeus has given sovereignty to the Persians and to you in particular, Cyrus...let's emigrate from the country we currently own, which is small and rugged, and take over somewhere better..."

Doesn't it seem the Persian threat is still alive and well today as it was back in Herodotus' time? When a people believe it is their god-given right over all others, will they ever be content with what they have now?

[Babi]

   The 'Omphalos Hypothesis' sounds like a last ditch measure, RICH. The
evidence against a 6000 yr. old earth is hard to ignore, so they came up with
this 'theory'. I would think a much more likely explanation is that it is a
mistake to count the time span based on the orally transmitted genealogy
written down much, much later in the Bible. It's the math that's in error.

 Thanks for the research on the use of stones as altars and as landmarks for
holy sites, BARB. It's amazing the great variety of information that comes up
in these discussions.

 

The poster suggests that women too are out for glory and all the perks to
be found in battle.

JONATHAN, you've got to tell me more about this. I'd like to see that poster
and see if it gives me the same impression. I find that idea very hard to
accept.  Of course there are women who can be as rapacious and ambitious
as any man, but you usually find them in the business realm. "..the perks to
be found in battle."    Other than the possibility of a medal and/or promotion,
I can't imagine any perks in battle.
 

[rich7]

I hope it's not bad form to mention another book during a specific book discussion, but here goes:

I'm reading a book entitled 1491 (New revelations of the Americas before Columbus).   It opened my eyes about the perceptions we were taught in grade school about the new world.

For instance, there were more people in the Americas than in Europe before Columbus landed.

The Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan, was larger, more heavily populated, cleaner, and more beautiful that any European city at the time.

The Europeans who "discovered" the new world were looked down upon by the "Americans" who thought of the intruders as puny, diseased, physically unfit, and unbelievably foul smelling, some of them having never bathed in their lifetime.

Why do I mention this book?  As I read it in parallel to our book, I wonder why the people in the Americas, with all they had going for them, did not have a Herodotus.  Or maybe they did have a Herodotus, and we have no way of learning about him (or her).  

They did not have the wheel, or horses, or an extensive written tradition.

We'll probably never know if there was a native American Herodotus, and what his thoughts were.

What a shame.

Rich



  

[Babi]

   The native American tribes generally stayed within their own territories,
having little contact outside  the neighboring tribes, who could be either
allies or enemies. Natural crises could cause them to move, seeking better
or safer territory. They were still pretty much bound into the oral tradition,
and like all such tribal people, they had their story-tellers who preserved
the legends of their origins, god, heroes..and their pranksters. The story-
teller was about as close to an historian as they got, so far as I know.
I would hope there are collections of those 'histories' out there, RICH.
    The description of the early Europeans coming to America.."puny,diseased,
physically unfit, and unbelievable foul smelling..." was probably quite true.
After all, it had been a long trip and the people of those times had some
strange ideas about bathing, anyway.  I believe the Japanese had a very similar
opinion of the first Europeans to show up there, too. 

[rich7]

Thank you, Babi, for your comments on my posting.  The part about the small tribes having little contact outside their own geographic area is mostly true for the Northern American tribes, especially when we recall what our grade school textbooks told us that the pilgrims at Plymouth rock, etc. encountered..  But what opened my eyes in this book is the author's comments about the Inca Nation.

"In 1491 the Inka (That's how he feels it should be spelled.) ruled the greatest empire on earth.  Bigger than Ming Dynasty China, bigger than Ivan the Great's expanding Russia, bigger than Songhay in the Sahel or powerful Great Zimbabwe in the West Africa tablelands, bigger than the cresting Ottoman Empire, bigger than the Triple Alliance, bigger by far than any European state, the Inka dominion extended over a staggering thirty two degrees of latitude- as if a single power held sway from St. Petersburg to Cairo."

Rich

[JoanP]

Rich, it seems that Kapus is all over the globe with his comments in these closing chapters. Literally.   Your comment on the  Inka ruling the greatest empire on earth got my attention... though I must have read right over it.  Can you remember in which chapter you read that?  I'd really like to re-read it in context.

I'll admit my attention was on the accounts of how those huge overpowering armies have been made up of slaves...driven by rulers who wish further domination.

When he writes about the "end" of the Greek/Persian war...it wasn't really over, was it?  It seems it is still going on.  
Kapuscinski writes of the military takeover in Algeria...and the conflicts that led to it:  conflicts between Christianity and Islaam - West and East and what he calls "the conflicts within...the heart of Islaam, between the fundamentalists and modernity."  It makes you stop and think how the causes of war have been the same -  

 "The Algerian Civil War was an armed conflict between the Algerian government and various Islamist rebel groups which began in 1991. Total casualties have yet to be accurately counted but it is estimated to have cost somewhere between 44,000 and 200,000 lives, in a population of about 25,010,000 in 1990 and 31,193,917 in 2000"
 
More than 70 journalists were assassinated, either by security forces or by Islamists.

Journalists, like Kapuscinski were always in the thick of things...a dangerous occupation.  That reminds me - I found an interview with Kapus. wife on what it was like being married to such a man.  I'll see if I stored it in a good place.

[rich7]

Joan P., The comments about the Incas came from me musing about why the Americas did not give us a Herodotus. (At least as far as we know.)  The specific quote is from the book 1491 New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus by Charles C. Mann.

Please forgive my straying from Kapuscinski.

Rich

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch folks - maybe a book on Native Confederations would be valuable - the tribes DID have much contact with each other - in the East especially - part of our Constitution is copied from the the Confederacies of the Native Tribes.

A couple of confederacies include:

The Iroquois, were an association with a large tribal alliance. The Iroquois Constitution, called the Great Law of Peace, were the most powerful federation in the northeast that included the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora..

The Tecumseh's Confederacy that included 1000s of warriors in what is now the Ohio River Valley

The Cherokee Nation included Chickasaw, Choctaw, Muscogee Creeks, Seminole - within the Muscogee were the Coushatta and the Alabama-Coushatta of Texas.

The Blackfoot Nation is a confederation of several tribes, including the South Piegan, the Blood or Kainai, the North Piegan, and the North Blackfoot or Siksika.

The most ancient confederacy of the Shawnee, whose history go back to the mound dwellers are part of the Algonquians who concluded hundreds of peace treaties with the tribal leaders Metacomet, Cornstalk, Tecumseh and Pontiac. Some of the tribes that were represented with peace treaties and part of the Confederacy were the Delaware, the Mingo, Illiniwek, Kickapoo, Menominee, Miami, Sac and Fox

The Apache tribe consists of: the Western Apache, Chiricahua, Mescalero, Jicarilla, Lipan and Kiowa

The Pawnee, one of the largest and most prominent Plains tribes, numbered over ten thousand during the period of early contact with Europeans. There were four divisions, designated as bands. Northernmost were the Skiris, who spoke a distinct dialect of Pawnee, a Caddoan language. South of the Platte to Kansas lived the Chawis, the Kitkahahkis, and the Pitahawiratas.

The Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes were united and friends to the Lokato (Sioux) and they were part of a 7 nation Confederacy.

This goes on and on - so that there were few to none small tribes unassociated with a formal Confederacy with laws that were not written till the 1500s but were known and kept alliances, trading and wars legal among Native Tribes. This is no different than today we know of the Tribes and their loyalty in places like Iraq with the Sunni and Shea - although religious based they use tribal law and Sherra law.

Long before the white man showed up, using long distance runners, among the western tribes some of these runners had routes into the Yucatan in Mexico. Trading and communication was far more sophisticated than our White history leads us to believe - like most history the victors write the history from their perspective often demonizing the enemy.  

The framers of the Constitution, like most colonists, were keenly aware and persuaded by Indian images of liberty. During the bi-centennial year of The Constitution of the United States, a number of books were written concerning the origin of  our revered document. The "The Genius of the People," explains that after the many weeks of debate a committee led in part by South Carolina's John Rutledge, sat to discuss the wide range of disputes amongst the delegates. Rutledge had served earlier, along with Ben Franklin and others, at the Stamp Act Congress.

This Committee of Detail was having trouble deciding just how to formalize the many items of discussion into one document that would satisfy one and all. Rutledge proposed they model the new government into something along the lines of the Iroquois League of Nations, which had been functioning as a democratic government for hundreds of years, and which he had observed in Albany.

While there were many models from ancient and modern histories in Europe and the Middle East, only the Iroquois system seemed to meet most of the demands supported by the many parties to the debates. The Iroquois had a Constitution which began: "We the people, to form a union..." The Constitution of the Iroquois Nation called the Great Binding Law, Gayanashagowa contains 117 articles.

I know all that is beside the point to this book but I am always deflated when I hear how we do not know the history of a people who we have stripped of their land, language, culture and even taken away from parents their children to educate them to be white.

[Babi]

 Wow! I had no idea it was that extensive, RICH. And isn't it embarassing to
think that cities like Tenochtitlan were cleaner under the Incas than most of
the 'civilized' cities of Europe. To think how superior they/we considered
ourselves to be.

 JOANP, what struck me most was the observation that the conflict between
Christianity and Islam was spurred by the Ottoman threat to one of their
richest and most valuable cities. It has often seemed to me that religion
was the excuse for conflicts more than the cause. Kings and popes both, imo,
used religion to stir up the people to go to war, while their underlying motives
were the old ones of attaining or preserving wealth and power.

 You're correct, of course, BARB. I included 'allies', and some of those
confederacies were huge. Still, the contact beween, say, the Eastern tribes,
the Plains Indians, and the remote Pacific tribes must have been extremely
rare, while communications between neighboring tribes would be expected.
I don't really know what these native tribes would have considered a 'long
distance'. A number of the southwestern tribes, as you know, roamed freely
into Mexico, as part of their territory.
  I knew the Iroquois naton was an inspiration to our founders, but I wasn't
aware of how closely we had followed their pattern. Thank you for that info.
about the "Great Binding Law".

  Back to Herodotus... K  raises the quandary of the Greeks on the advance of the Persians. Cooperate, boycot, resist,  all-out fight to the death?  It would seem he is referring to the whole of the city-states, as Athens has made it's choice unarguably clear.  At the mere suggestion of cooperation with the invaders,  the citizenry fly into a rage and stone the speaker to death. And Sparta, with its warlike culture and ethic, is their ally in resistance.   It is the remainder of the Greek city-states that must make up their minds what to do.
  Oddly enough, despite their great  numbers,  it seems the Persian soldiery are not at all optimistic about their chances.  A Persian speaks of the premonitions that have tormented him that this great army will have few survivors. When asked why he does not tell his leaders of these dreams....people paid close attention to dreams as portents and warnings...replies, "My friend, and event which has been decreed by the god cannot be averted by man, for no one is willing to believe even those who tell the truth.  A great many Persians are well aware of what I've just said, but we follow our leaders because we have no choice. There's no more terrible pain a  man can endure than to see clearly and be able to do nothing."   Echoes of Cassandra! 

 Please excuse the length of this post.  The deadline is almost upon us!

[Frybabe]

Several things popped into my mind while reading.

1. I was not aware that ANYONE survived Thermopylae.

2. The Algerian coup de etat is something I need to learn more about since I only remember that it happened and the names of the leaders involved.

3. In order to show everything was going well in a household the woman was expected to be almost constantly pregnant. No wonder there has been so much poverty and starvation in that part of the world with mores such as that.

Babi, your quote definitely shows the fatalistic approach to life that most people held back then. Destiny was pre-ordained. Regardless of what you do or don't do, you cannot escape your fate. If the priests and oracles decree something as coming from the Gods, then it must be so (oh, gee, like none of them were ever mistaken or worse, lied). No Free Will allowed.

[JoanP]

Wow!
Lots of things to think about and talk about this morning.  This is what happens when we realize that our month together is nearing an end.

"The comments about the Incas came from me - musing about why the Americas did not give us a Herodotus." Rich

Rich, your musings got me thinking about how an "American" historian might have operated in the 1490's...and what the "history" would have been like.  This brought up another point Kapuscinski makes implies.  Was Herodotus really an historian, were his Histories really intended to be a definitive history of the period?  Kapus. states that the term,  "Histories" "misses the point"  He says "Inquiries" or Investigations" would be a better description of what Herodotus had set out to do.  He makes a distinction between an historian and a reporter.  In fact he goes so far as to say that "to understand the past as it was, is impossible.  What are available to us are only it's various versions... The past does not exist.  There are only infinite renderings of it."

Whew!  That's a lot to think about, isn't it?  Kapus tells us that Herodotus was aware of this, yet persevered in his investigations of eye witnesses to the past.  He did not consider himself an historian, but rather a reporter of what he saw and heard.

 Kapuscinski tells us he is becoming "dependent" on Herodotus.  Would you say he's changing the way he's reporting, the more immersed he gets in his work?
He tells us he's the only reporter in Africa during the 1960's...do you think his reports to the Polish Press were similar to Herodotus' reports of the Greco-Persian Wars?

Good morning, Babi!  You're right, the deadline is nearing...
Back to Herodotus' ...
coffee is cold...back in a sec~

[JoanP]

" Regardless of what you do or don't do, you cannot escape your fate." Fry

Fry, Do you think Herodotus believed that Xerxes destiny was pre-ordained?  Do you think that he believed Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset -  no matter what?

Kapus. summed it up - "Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished.  This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny."  I can see where Kapus. would agree with Herodotus - war a crime, and eventually be punished.  Does every nation who goes to war understand that this will always be the outcome...?  Would you call  this "predestination"?



 

[rich7]

These have been some great discussions.  It is too bad we're winding down to a finish.

I had to read the part about Kapus' meeting with the Algerian ambassador twice.  I found it very interesting on several levels.  I won't bore you with an explanation of all my levels of interest, but the fact that all the ambassador had to say was, "It might be worth your while to go to Algiers" was enough to trigger Kapus' reportorial instincts.  He resolved, on the basis of those ten words, to take a great professional chance by leaving his assignment and traveling across half the continent of Africa without authorization. 

He could have been fired.

His instincts paid off, however, and he got a good story. 

In the business world, when you're not in charge and you see a great opportunity, it's often easier to obtain forgiveness than permission.

Rich   

[JoanP]

"K  raises the quandary of the Greeks on the advance of the Persians. Cooperate, boycot, resist,  all-out fight to the death?" Babi

 

The Greeks were not unified in the decision to face that huge advancing Persian armies - understandably so.  I remember smiling at Kapuscinski's (or was it Herodotus' observation - "No Persian provokes so much hatred in a Greek as another Greek."  But they were willing to face the Persians at any cost.
 Herodotus made the point that it was the fear of losing their freedom that spurred them into unified action.  They would fight to the death.

 And yet, I puzzled at the fate of the poor "most courageous" Aristodamus, one of the last of his regiment at Thermopylae to survive,  scorned by the Spartans because he went into the battle wishing to die... 

[rich7]

Aristodamis (whose sin was not being killed) would have found a soul mate in General George S. Patton.

"Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."  

Rich

[Frybabe]

Fry, Do you think Herodotus believed that Xerxes destiny was pre-ordained?  Do you think that he believed Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset -  no matter what?

Yes to the first question and Yes to the second half of the second question. Destiny by definition is a predetermined course of events that cannot be altered.

Kapus. summed it up - "Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished.  This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny."  I can see where Kapus. would agree with Herodotus - war a crime, and eventually be punished.  Does every nation who goes to war understand that this will always be the outcome...?  Would you call  this "predestination"?

I don't think most people think that far, JoanP. They think backward but not so often think forward or forward far enough. And even if they do, they misread the "omens"; they see what they want to see;  or, don't consider all the consequences, unintended as well as intended, or think them acceptable. A prime example of short-sited thinking has to be the history of the Middle East since the early 1900s, and especially after WWI. Look how our politicians, along with the English, French, Russians and others carved up the Ottoman Empire without regard to historical tribal territories and with an eye to future megabucks in oil. Look how they continue to try to fix things (to whose advantage?) by backing various groups or persons and generally meddling in other countries affairs. Which brings up a question. Isn't it illegal for the US to interfere with another country's internal affairs? Where is THAT line drawn? We openly encouraged the regime change in Egypt and Libya (with arms in the latter case that are coming back to haunt us in Algeria).

George Santayana's famous line still applies today as it did in Herodotus' time:

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
—Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, p. 284

One more, which seems appropriate:

“... only the dead have seen the end of war.”
—Soliloquies in England, Scribner's, 1922, p. 102

Ah, Rich. Patton is a favorite. He knew his history. I don't think he had much doubt as to his role in life, his fate, his destiny.

[BarbStAubrey]

Back for a minute to page 215 when Herodotus "wrestles with the issue constantly" of measuring time during conversation - as Kapuscinski says we today with difficulty we can appreciate the problem since we rely on mechanical or now, digital measurements.

I was reminded at how we still have a different approach towards time while watching PPS antique road show and the one from BBC Britain - disclosing to an American that his or her antique was made in 1680 or even 1790 they are so impressed and dumbfounded that they had on their mantel or in their hall closet something that old - a British audience takes those and even older bits found in fields from the Romans in stride as if they were told it was made 100 years ago instead of more than a 1000 years ago. MY guess is we use the settling of a land as our measurement and anything before is mouth dropping old and so do we really relate when we travel to places on the Mediterranean that are 3,4,5 or more thousands of years old.  How can we really appreciate what goes on in the souls of people with such an ancient history half of which we do not know how it had influenced the generations that came.

Which seems to me to be a lead in to his comments on page 240 - "that non-Europeans communities and cultures would have their own ambitions for dignity and respect in the family of man. This is the context in which the problem arises of the Otherness of the Other."

Puts in a different perspective Senghor's dream of "a return to symbolic roots to lost sources..." More and more Kapuscinski is showing us we are still children of ancient Greece living out their reaction and actions in life and keeping alive many of their symbolisms.

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder -

Look how they continue to try to fix things (to whose advantage?) by backing various groups or persons and generally meddling in other countries affairs.

Does any victor consider the enemy as people with needs - in fact even victorious government leaders do not look at benefits to meet the needs of their people -

Seems to me it is about grabbing to add to the power they already possess - In the past we were proud of ourselves as a nation because we were not grabbing after WWII - but in fact we were - we were grabbing the trust that would lead to others agreeing with our way of governing - this grabbing was primary till Iraq when it appears we are now reduced to what we abhorred about other nations - a silent powerful group who knew how to manipulate and grab the oil.

Seems the people measure a good leader by how well the leader make life bearable if not offer opportunities for betterment of the average citizen where as, through out history leaders see the entire nation and the world as the possibility for wealth of one kind or another as well as controlling the power sources who want the wealth of their territory, nation, tribe.

[Babi]

  'History' would seem to indicate that nations that go to war believe either
that it is necessary for their own preservation, or that they will benefit
from it, JOANP.  I can't imagine a nation going to war with the understanding that
they are committing a crime and it will be punished.
  The Spartans had a harsh culture. Mothers told their sons, on leaving for
battle, to return "with your shield, or on it."  No surrender. Victory or
death. If I remember correctly, Aristodamus was ordered to return to Sparta
to report what had happened when it became clear they could not survive. This
made no difference whatever to the disgrace.

 

"..they misread the "omens"; they see what they want to see; or, don't consider
all the consequences, unintended as well as intended, or think them acceptable."

You've got it in a nutshell there, FRYBABE.

  As best I understand Herodotus' motives, he was driven to write down what
history he could learn from those still living, and document the events that
were happening in his time. For us, all of it is now history and he was the
first genuine historian. He even understood the importance of reporting which
events were eye-witness and which were unconfirmed stories and rumors.

   You know, I probably would not have read this book without all the thoughtful and
thought-provoking discussion.  I found K's mastery of language such a pleasure, tho',
that I may well pick up the book on occasion and read something at random.
    Another of K's gems of description....the celebrations at Dakar.  The street performers,  the spontaneous dances, the laughter and gaiety.  The masks are everywhere and highly significant to those who wear, or carry, of see them.  Without knowing what they symbolize, it's hard for me to understand  their emotional impact.   I found this article helpful.
http://www.rebirth.co.za/african_mask_history_and_meaning.htm

  Is there a one of us who hasn't the discovered the truth of his words, ".. . one must read Herodotus' book -and every great book - repeatedly; with each reading it will reveal another layer, previously overlooked themes, images, and  meanings. For within every great book there  are several others."

[rich7]

BarbStAubrey  Your comments about time and how different people perceive it are interesting.  I might add to your list the perception that Los Angeleans hold.  Any building that is in excess of 60 years old is a part of ancient history in that city.

To the Swiss, if you are more than one or two minutes late to a meeting, you are showing great rudeness. (Maybe that's why they are obsessed with clocks and watches.)  

I have many friends (and some relatives) who are from Mexico, and some who live there still.  Little offense is taken by them if you are late for anything.

I live near a Hopi reservation in Arizona, and the Hopi concern themselves much less with time (Than, say, compared to the Swiss.) , to the point of sometimes avoiding the use of tenses in their language.

Einstein commenting on time once wrote:"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."


Rich

[JoanK]

" I might add to your list the perception that Los Angeleans hold.  Any building that is in excess of 60 years old is a part of ancient history in that city."

I remember an argument in graduate school between an American professor and a grad student from India. They were arguing about whether a certain thing should be studied for a short time (the Indian) or a long time (the American). I asked the Indian "What do you mean by a shorttime?" "Oh, about ten years." What did the American mean by a long time? Six months to a year.

[Jonathan]

That's a good illustration, JoanK, of the different perceptions of time all of us have. What a mystery. A real problem for people like historian Herodotus, and the scientist Einstein. The ancient 'discovers...the multiformity of time', while the modern discovered its relativity to circumstance.

'Accustomed to an exacting mechanical measurement, we do not realize what a problem the computation of time once presented, how much cifficulty lurked therein, how many riddles and mysteries.' p215

The peasants calculate time by the seasons of the year, city dwellers by generations, the chroniclers of ancient states by the length of the ruling dynasties.

And hasn't Kapuscinski got himself lost in time. There was only the immediate present, or the ancient world of Herodotus.

Reporting the news was another problem. What a hoot!

'Every now and then - in the street, in one of the air-conditioned cafes, or here at the Sea View Hotel - the exchange of loot took place. Some had heard that there had been a coup against Mobutu; others dismissed this as gossip - and how could one verfy it, anyway! From such rumors, whispers, conjectures - and fact, too - we cobbled together our reports and sent them back home.'


Somewhere in the house I have a book about contemporary journalism, with the title: IF NO NEWS, SEND RUMORS.

[JoanP]

That's funny, Jonathan! Are you kidding? Never can tell with you... It is certainly an appropriate title here.

Sadly, I had to return my copy of The Histories as it was due.  I started to get into it...and regretted not getting past the first book at the beginning of our time together.  Such a nice easy conversational writing style!  I wonder if this was the translator's doing. Kapuscinski and Herodotus had this in common....they both seemed to love their subjects, their stories, their jobs, and above all, their love of travel and discovery.

When K. wrote that it was a lonely job...even wondered whether Herodotus  had a wife, I wondered again about Kapuscinski, his wife, his marriage.  Like Herodotus, he seemed to always be on the road, alone.

Not only did I find his wife in Poland - a pediatrician, but found an interview she gave after his death, in which she talks about what it was like, her life with this man - and his passion.  I thought I'd better bring it here now - the clock is ticking...